27 posts
Tube I've had lying around for 25 years on the left. Modern Sovtek tube on the right. Both equally dusty... ::)
Looks like there is some skimping going on these days. Just though it was interesting to see the difference.
I like Craig's pic better, but I can't see any tubes and it needs to be enlarged...
It's hard to see in my pic, but the envelope is thicker, there is an extra spacer and better support for them. More mass to the plates and generally more robust looking.
Could just be design differences, but the US tube looks like it is made to last. I don't want to start a tube war, but it makes sense that even older tubes made when tubes were the only choice were built with better materials etc...
Edit: After some thought I guess the way they look is ultimately not very imortant.
No tube war. Just asking what you saw for learning purposes.
8-)
I didn't think you would be a rabid Russian 12ax7wa defender Howie but I don't want to seem like a vintage tube snob either. No $200 glowing bottles in my near future.
OTOH I bought two new JJs for my Rebel and one died in two weeks and the other sounded great for several months.
The new egnater is going to be a fine platform to test some preamp tubes with. I felt like the Sovteks made it harder to get the sting out of the treble and not dull the tone too much.
LOL, no, let me tell you what cures you of Tube Snobery. Lacka$ :)
Actually, this is what has always made more sense too me. Mostly, stick with modern "easily replaced with something you can actually expect to sound the same" tubes. That way I can expect the next set to sound like the ones I'm replacing. And, if I decide that a certain amp sounds better biased a bit hot, and know that this will wear the tubes, I don't have to fear never getting THAT tone back, or it costing an arm and a leg. ;)
I have some JJs that are 4 years old and have never had a pre or power JJ fail yet. In fact, I've never replaced one yet because I thought it was worn out. I get my JJs from Bob at Euro.
I WILL try some Tong Sols in my Egnaters. Especially the 12ax7 in V1 as it's very well reviewed, cheap, and easily replaced. Of course, I still reserve the right to throw a few of my "old" tubes in there to see how they are.
Wow, great advice Howie! I think I'll sell all the Mullards in my Ironsheep-mojo'ed Rock Master!
Or not. ;) ;D
I bought my JJs locally. Supports finding a vendor that does some testing.
I get the impression from my limited experience and a lot of reading that even the 'best' sounding new production tube maker's biggest problem is inconsistentency. Less expensive tubes that provide the same results time after time would be great to find.
Lots of information from a former Groove Tubes guy gotta dig around (and break out a few grains of salt,) but the phase inverter info and tube tester data is good. Look for his explanation of the effects of rise time. http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/index2.html
I think Howie needs to do a comparison test like this guy did. :)
http://www.tgpwebzine.com/?page_id=83
There are a lot of different designs for preamp tubes. You can't simply look at one old tube compared to a new one, and make any real judgment on it. Even among the dozen or so different types of ax7s I have, only a couple have similar designs. However, I brightened and added contrast so I could look a little closer and I'm not sure what you see. That Sovtek looks very solid. If it sounds bad, then it sounds bad, but from the looks, they both look very well made.
Interesting read Craig.
RCAs are a lot of people's grail tube. I think he might like some of the others more than he did if he had a larger sample size to work with.
Myles Rose from my link above is of the opinion that the 9th gen Chinese tubes are pretty good. They are dropping some of our former money on improving quality.
Craig,
I didn't say they weren't better. But the certainly aren't "always better." Buying them used is a crap shoot. You can easily lose more tone by inserting one tone sucking pedal, or sub par cable in your chain, than you will gain when switching from a quality new tube to an old one. Improving a couple caps in the amp can make as much or more difference unless you have a high end amp (and even then it can). I can list more reasons. In the end, FOR ME, I'd rather base my tone on a quality affordable and renewable item. Then if I have the cash to experiment, try a few older tubes here and there. I'm certainly not telling anyone else that's the right way to do it. YMDWYW
Also, sometimes a new, well-manufactured tube will sound really good, and that's not what you want. For example, you don't always want a hi-fidelity, well-balanced tube in a guitar preamp. Sometimes you want something raunchy and crunchy and dark.
I have a bunch of old tubes that cost me 3 or 4x what their new equivalents cost, and I use them, and I like them. But I would have no problem going with Sovteks or EHs or Teslas or whatever in a pinch. Like DTR said, they are reproducible. I never know if a 40 year old tube is going to sound fantastic or just moderately okay. At least I know if I buy 5 new Sovteks they will all sound relatively similar.
The Sovtek looks more spare to me. To reiterate: appearance is totally unimportant to sound.
That particular tube sounds annoying distorted to me and even that is subjective.
Ignoring the picture now...
I think Howie's point about finding decent new prod tubes merits discussion. I probably will not mod my amp to sound its best with a particular tube though. I think the variability of tubes in even one run MAY mean buying and sorting by ear anyway. I would like to find a way to eliminate some of that.
I wish I had a huge stash of NOS Tubes. But I also wish I had 3-4 high end amps to use them in. :)
I guess we're lucky that there seems to be a rejuvenation of tube quality for new stuff. The general consensus seems to be that new stuff now is better than 5 years ago..
Yeah, I'm missing that Univalve that I had where you could plug and play any tube you wanted endlessly without needing to rebias... Sheep knows, he's got the stereo version! :)
Tobe — May 03, 2010Interesting read Craig.
RCAs are a lot of people's grail tube. I think he might like some of the others more than he did if he had a larger sample size to work with.
Myles Rose from my link above is of the opinion that the 9th gen Chinese tubes are pretty good. They are dropping some of our former money on improving quality.
I'm nnot sayying that the RCA's are a grail tube....but I pickedd up a RCA 12ax7 years ago.....and really liked it. It's been in my amp for ages now. Sounds really nice.
I also like the JAN Spec 12ax7 tubes when I can get them.
My current fav is a EH gold pin 12ax7.....LOVE.
I'll give the EH a shot too. Do you buy them online?
On a given day you have a 50/50 chance of finding anything other than Groove Tubes around here. That's the only tubes GC carries. They are fine tubes, but I'd like a choice. Sovteks and maybe JJ 12ax7s at other locations.
I also want a JAN 5751 to try in V1.
Bite the bullet and get a NOS Mullard cv4004 imo. Expensive, but man, such a great tube. I try others in V1 from time to time but the mullard always winds up back in there.
also, I have a JAN 5751... it's not even close. nice tube though, I use it in V2 a lot.
Thanks for the reccomendation Sheep. Is V2 a phase inverter?
That Mullard is a pricey piece of glass, but not quite as much as I expected. I do want one or two top drawer NOS in my collection.
V2 should just be the next gain stage, but then that depends on what amp you're putting it in!
On a few amps I can think of, V4 is the phase inverter.
yeah, it ALWAYS depends on the amp you are putting it in. There is no rule in amp design as to what tube is used for what. In some amps, the first and second gain stage come from one side of the first two tubes. In others, the first two gain stages come from the two sides of one tube. Etc...
A better question would be: What is V2 in Ironsheep's amp? :)
V2 in the Flexi is the tone controls and boost (second gain stage sorta - it's not "distortion" so much as power tube overdrive).
Thanks Sheep. I was wondering why someone might put a lower gain tube in a second gain stage.
I know the PI / preamp tube layout is almost different in every amp design. ::)
Since the question was on the same lins as my reply to Sheep I thought it was implied as a question regarding his mention of the 5751 in V2.
Ouch. Ok... Note Craigs post right before mine.
