The Watering Hole

Custom Shop
12 posts
We're going to work through the amplifier from the guitar input to speaker output.  So, let's start in the preamps and get a feel for how they're put together. We're, truly, not yet into the "voicing" part of it, we're just looking at how things are laid out and put together in a structured block format.   I'm going to try to attach files, here, so if this works out there should be a JPG file attached with a bunch of triangles and a rectangle.    The triangles represent a "gain stage" with all the frequency-based elements included in it.  This would be a stage with an active component such as a tube, op-amp, transistor, FET, or other element that can provide signal gain.   The "TONE" rectangle simply represents whatever tone control(s) is included with the amplifier.    

There are two basic topologies (layouts) that are typically used in almost every ampilfier produced, today.   Of course, there can be many variations on a given them, but the basics are there.  If you look at the attached illustration, the top drawing is what I will typically refer to as the "Fender topology".   In most, not all but most, Fender amps there is a single gain stage which is immediately followed by the tone stack/controls.   This is then followed by one, or more, gain stages.   This diagram shows three additional stages.   Amps such as the Fender Deluxe (original) had a single tone control and two gain stages.   In fact, most Fender amps don't have the third gain stage.  The newer FAT Series amps (Hot Rod Deluxe, Blues Junior, Hot Rod Deville) all have 3 gain stages, as shown above.  

In the Fender topology the tone stack is placed BEFORE the distortion is generated in the amplifier.   It'd take a very strong guitar to distort the first stage of a Fender amplifier.  A normal guitar has an RMS output of about 80-85mV (.085 volts) RMS.    It takes approximately 2.5V RMS to overdrive a standard first stage of a guitar amp.  The guitar signal would have to amplified to a level 30 times greater than what it is (doesn't even happen with active pickups) to get the first stage to distort.  

So, that said, any distortion that gets generated occurs in stage 2 (on most Fenders) and/or stages 2 and 3 (on the FAT-series).   The tone stack, then, helps to shape the distortion - meaning it provides the voicing for the distortion (balance of highs and lows).    

The "Marshall" topology is shown on the bottom.   If you'll notice, here, that there are 2, or more, gain stages prior to the tone stack/controls.  A Peavey 5150, for example, has 5 stages prior to the tone controls.   In this topology all of the distortion is generated BEFORE the signal reaches the tone control(s) in the amplifier.   In these amplifiers the tone stack actively shapes the resulting distortion and allows you, the user, to control the "sound" of the distortion, but not the overall voicing of the preamplifier.

VOX/Matchless, Soldano, THD follow the Marshall topology, with the tone stacks after all the distortion is generated.   Fender copies, of course, place the tone stacks at the very front of the amp.

So, the question comes into play, why not just put the tone stack as the very first thing and ALL the gain stages after?   And that, is a very good question.   The tone stack itself is a "signal suck"... meaning that what you get out of it, in terms of signal is a LOT less than what you put into the thing, especially if the controls are turned to their minimum position.   Almost all of the signal, in that situation is "bled" to ground, or "shorted" to ground and very little of it is actually fed to the next stage.   If you get near a Fender amp, sometime in the near future, set all the tone controls to 0 and you'll notice you end up with very little output.  On some Fenders, depending on values used in the tone stack, you will get no output, at all.   VOX amps have a 10K resistor that helps with this.  Some Fenders ('65 Deluxe Reverb") had a fixed midrange control setting, with only the Bass/Treble adjustable to get around this issue.   At mid-settings, you're bleeding off roughly 50% of the total signal...  

The guitar signal is SO low in amplitude/level that the tone stack would simply reduce it to nothing and there would be nothing to amplify, so at least one gain stage is added in order to get enough level to drive the next stage.  


The basic lesson, to take away here is, simply this:  Fender topologies place the tone stack/control immediately after the first stage.  This makes the tone control settings an active part in voicing the resulting distortion and character of the amplifier.   Marshall-like topologies, voiced specifically for distortion, have the tone controls located at, or very near, the end of the string of preamp gain stages.  That tone control shapes the resultant distortion and does not assist in the voicing of the preamp.  

Next up - Why Different Tubes Sound Different...

Dar
AMP_TOPOLOGY_BASICS.jpg
Damn it Charger, you should "sticky" these posts!

Keep it coming Dar, I've learnt more about tube amps in the last hour than I have in the last 3 years of hanging around forums and reading books.

You should writing books on this stuff, NOT posting here (OK, as well as posting here ;)).

Thank you.

Spud.
Glad to hear it's helping... got the JPG to attach this time round...  
Hell yeah Dar...you should write a book if you haven't already.  ;D

Call it.... "Understanding guitar amps for Dummies."  ;D

This kicks ass!  

Randy
I am assuming you mean the fender blacface tone stack here and not the tweed deluxe style - no?
So, I'm trying to better understand what I have here at home, THD tonestack comes after the gain. So, the Attitude knob on the Bi-Valve affects the gain before the tone.  The Tone on the THD is a Fixed Midrange with only a treble / bass  adjustment to alter it???
Hey Doc;

About 99% of the Fender amps made, whether Tweed, Blackface, CBS, or other, all have the tone stack located immediately after the first stage.    There was one notable exception to that rule that has made guitar amp history and that's the Fender Bassman, specifically the 5F6A chassis - the VENERABLE Bassman that everyone worships and the template from which the Marshall JTM45 was born.  

It's interesting, if you look at the Bassman schematics, as this amp evolved from it's first release to that one... many of the first releases, of this model, had the tone controls located immediately after the first stage.   Later designs had the Bass and/or Bass/Mid control immediately after the first stage but the Treble control was at the last stage of the amp.   Finally, for some reason, Fender decided to put the entire tone stack at the end of the preamp.    

The first iteration of this, the 5F6 had the full tone control complement (Bass / Middle / Treble) at the end of the preamp, just before the splitter and power amp.   The "unique" thing about this version of the amp is that Fender brought the feedback loop to the bottom of the tone stack AND included a Presence control.   This, essentially, makes the tone stack an "active" part of the feedback loop and turns the tone stack into more of an "active" stack.   Marshall did this with the Marshall Major (Ritchie Blackmoore's amp of choice for a long time) and it wasn't well recieved.

The 5F6-A version of the Bassman followed not long after the 5F6 relelase.  The feedback loop and Presence control was moved to the splitter stage and the tone stack remained "passive" and out of the feedback.  However, it was still located at the end of the preamp section.  I have looked at all of my Fender schematics (and I have most of them) and there isn't another amp that I could find, at a quick scan through them, that followed this topology.    This is what Marshall started from...

I wonder what amp evolution would have been like had Fender never changed their topology and kept the tone stacks at the front of the amps...   it does make you think...

Dar
DM;

I'm familiar with the THD product line, I'm unfamiliar with how they've implemented their tone control(s) in the amps.   Interestingly enough, it's one of the few amps I don't have schematics for.  Would you be able to get hold of a schematic that you could send me, and we could talk about it?  It's hard to know without seeing.

Dar
I may have one here that I can scan and upload.  I'll check.
It seems that THD is peculiar about the release of their schematics.  I saw at their forums that one was being PM'ed around.  I registered and put in a request for a copy.  We'll see how that pans out. :-/
I kind of figured that... protecting their intellectual property is what they're doing, and I respect that.   Let me know if you get something...

Dar
Hey Dar,  I'm sending you a PM.  Seems panning still works.   :o