The Watering Hole

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9 posts
OK... I realize I'm trodding on subjective territory, here, and I said I'd try to stay away from that.   However, as you're well aware, preamps are made up of all kinds of tubes... 12AX7's, 12AT7's, 12AU7's, all of them with varied designators describing their various attributes (dry, warm, clean distortion, smooth sustain).  Heck Groove Tubes has about 297.6 different categories of 12AX7 tubes all graded for your listening pleasures.  

So, what's the difference?  Why, if I put a 12AX7A in a preamp spot and then replace it with a 12AX7C, does the A sound different than the C?   Why does a 12AT7, or a 12AU7 change that even more?   The answer lies in some basic elements about tubes and the way they operate and respond to the circuits around them.   If you look at an amp schematic, which consists of multiple straigh lines, dots, squiggles, parallel lines and a few circles, or half-circles, numbers and letters you'll eventually focus in, like you do with those "Magic Eye" posters and figure out that a tube is surrounded by a life support system of resistors and capacitors all designed to make it "operate properly" - meaning within the constraints that the designer wanted.

Tube geometry (no, this isn't a nightmarish high school math class) defines how a tube will act.  Tube geometry is, simply, the spacing between various elements of the tube.  How close the grid is to the plate and to the cathode.  How large the plate is with respect to the cathode, that sort of thing.  If the tube is put together sloppy, well geometries are going to be all over the place.  Some tubes will exhibit great charactaristics, others horrid.   And from this "slop" was derived a rating system, outlining, in part, how this geometry affects the tube operation.    When tubes are assembled, the relative "straightness" and "orientation" of these elements will, in part, determine geometry and final results.  

Whenever two conductive surfaces (metals, or the like) are placed near each other, but not touching, they form a capacitor - whether we want them to, or not.   The tube, then, as a result of being assembled, creates small capacitors between the plate and the grid, the grid and the cathode and the cathode and the plate.  Each of these capactances affects circuit performance (frequency response) in a different way some of which can be neglected.   The most dominant of these is the plate to grid capacitance.  The greater this value is (the closer the grid and plate are to each other as a result of design and/or assembly) the more "limited" the frequency response of the tube will be and it's the high frequencies that are being cut by this.    This is also known as the "Miller Effect".  

The next thing that influences the tubes performance is the quality of the metals used inside the thing.   The cathode, for instance, is made up of metal that, when heated, shoots electrons away from it.   The better the "doping" in the metal the greater number of electrons the cathode can produce.   This, then, increases the tubes "amplification factor" which determines how much gain you're going to be able to achieve from the thing.  

Finally, the vaccuum envelope... how much air is sucked out of the tube and how much gas is left inside the thing.   Too much gas and the tube operates poorly.  Too little of it, and it operates poorly. Too much oxygen and it burns up quickly.  A slow leak will kill it quick... so, this, too, impacts the tubes overall performance.

12AT7 and 12AY7 tubes exhibit much less gain than their hi-gain (high mu) counterparts.   Their interelectrode capacitances are different than the 12AX7's, their grid size, plate size and cathode size, as well as spacing for all 3, are different, therefore the circuits you build around them are, typically, different to reflect, and account for, the differences in tube response/design.    That is, if we're designing with these tubes in mind.   Most of us will just plop one of these tubes into a spot designed for a 12AX7 and call it "different", whether that different is "better" or "worse", subjectively, for us.

Personally, and this is me, I would use a hi-mu (12AX7) in the very first spot in the preamp.   This gives you the best signal to noise ratio (SNR) that you're going to be able to get out of the amp.   The higher the gain, in this stage, the more signal you're going to have versus hum/hiss when you're playing your favorite licks at bedroom volume.   However, if you're going to use that high gain tube, there, make sure it's a good one.  Some of the lower quality tubes exhibit more noise as a result of poorly doped cathodes, or poorly evacuated envelopes, or both.   Quiet quality, in this spot, makes it better for everything else. Any noise generated in this stage is going to amplified 10's, or 100's, or 1000's of times by every succeeding stage after that!  

I haven't touched, really, on the differences in EL34 versus 6V6, or EL84 vs. 6L6.   There are some relatively complicated other issues, surrounding those, that include interactions between the power tubes and the output transformer, the power tubes and the speakers (reflected impedances) and other things.  Let's get through preamps first... then delve into power amps.  

Let me know if there are any questions you might have...  

Enjoy...

Dar

Dar, you ROCK!
This is damn cool!  :)

You got me hooked.
I'm reading them all.  ;D

Randy
Great info Dar. Thanks for sharing.
hahaha, I warned you!  We've created a monster!  

Actually, I've read most of this before, but when I discuss this stuff with Dar, I come away understanding it even better.  You guys are now getting a glimpse of what he TEACHES me on an almost daily basis.  And, he's a real nice guy to boot!   ;)
Howie....you big ol' Audiophile you.  :D

Randy
I operate better with less gas.  Seems my gas mixture is always off.

Good stuff, Dar!!!

Other than trial and error, how do you determine if a manufacturer of a tube uses materials that they advertise?  Which factories do you feel are producing "quality" tubes.  Current producers.  Curious of your opinion.
Hey DM;

Well, honestly, it's hard to tell...   So I tend to rely on reputable folks that deal with these things each day.  There are a lot of people that swear by JJ tubes.  They have a great reputation and I rarely, if ever hear bad things about them.   So their rating systems seem to be pretty good, to me.   I haven't ever worked with, or used them.    There are a lot of folks on this board that have and swear by them.

I, personally, use Groove Tubes that I buy from Guitar Center.  WHY, we ask in mock horror?   Mainly cuz Guitar Center is about 15 miles from the house, I need a tube, I jump in the truck and drive over there and buy the one(s) I want.  Our GC's stock nearly a full complement of Groove Tubes.  I've used them for years and they meet my needs, pretty much end of story.

www.tubesandmore.com is another great place to get tubes from.   I've worked with those guys quite a bit over the years.  Great company, good customer service - at least for me.   They even sell NOS stuff if you're into that.

As per quality tubes, I think many of the factories still producing do a pretty good job of it.   Svetlana's, to me, seem to be the most "rigid" in their overall quality.  That said, though, Groove Tubes recently started manufacturing tubes in a new facility.  Electro-Harmonix is doing it.  There are several Czech factories that seem to produce pretty good products.   The Chinese tubes, much like their microphones, are kind of "hit and miss..."    Again, JJ, Groove Tubes and others pre-sort all this out so you don't have to fret over it.   You can say:  "I'd like your highest mu 12AX7..." and you'll get just that.  To get a high-mu 12AX7, the tube has to be made to rigid standards with good element placement, good envelope evacuation, etc, so you know you're getting a good tube, that way.  

That said, when placed in a "vintage" circuit designed around tubes that weren't made so well, it'll probably sound a bit more "harsh" or "dry" than the original tube you had in there.   That's because that circuitry was made to compensate, and deal with, 12AX7's of poorer quality.   In that instance, if that's what occurs, then you'd be better off to get a lower mu, or "softer", tube.   You'll find it sounds a bit more "vintage" and it'll lose that "edge" it gained from the better made tube.  It's, also, part of why Groove Tubes created that rating system, in the first place - to help folks better choose the correct tube for their application.

Hope that helps, let me know if you have any more questions.

Dar
Thanks, Dar.  I have used most of the ones you mentioned.  I do have some NOS stuff that I've purchased through ebay.  I have also used http://www.dougstubes.com/ and http://www.tubedepot.com/ .  I find that the EI gold are pretty consistant tubes, which you didn't mention, so you may want to give them a whirl for grins.  I was just curious if you had any more insight on particular manufacturers.  

I haven't had a bunch of time with futzing with tube amps lately.  I need to change speakers for the lower gain Bi-valve, but I haven't done it.  I got a used Lead 80 knock-off from Howie a while back, but still haven't changed it out.  I got bored with the Swamp Thang that I have.  It doesn't seem to be very sensitive to what you throw at it, so it lacks character.  It's safe for wattage, but stays tied in the same corral no matter what you throw at it.  Seems we're never happy. :D
Dar — Aug 14, 2008
There are a lot of people that swear by JJ tubes.  They have a great reputation and I rarely, if ever hear bad things about them.   So their rating systems seem to be pretty good, to me.   I haven't ever worked with, or used them.    There are a lot of folks on this board that have and swear by them.


Well I do use JJ's, in fact whenever I buy an amp I purchase a full set from Bobbo at Eurotubes at the same time. One drawback of this practice is; when I don't like the amp like with the Fender Pro Junior I sent back, I am stuck with the tubes, fortunately I can use the 12AX7's in any amp.

The thing I find about JJ's is that they are smoother and deeper sounding than other tubes. More hi fi. I am not an engineer, just a tone junkie, and they give me the tone I have always been looking for. And they seem to stand up to the hotter BIASING I have used on my HRD. According to Bob, they can stand a higher plate voltage than many other brands. Of course since he sells them he is biased in his opinion of course, but so far following his advice, I get good results.