The Watering Hole

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So, my thought is, start with the guy that sort of "started it all" - Leo Fender.    Fenders are known for one thing - CLEAN!   You don't see many death metal bands sporting Fender Twin stacks these days and there's a reason for that.   Leo focused on three things:  1) Quality products,  2) Competitive pricing and 3) Amplifying cleanly.    Because of this basic focus, the Fender circuits are derived straight from the RCA Tube Manuals.  

Back in the day, in order to sell tubes, tube companies would produce splendid books that not only told customers how great the tubes were but actually had suggested circuits for various applications that maximized whatever quality of whatever tube it was they were trying to sell.   Rather than spend a lot of time in R&D, Leo Fender took these already "cooked" designs and put them together into tube amps that made history.   He did a great job and I'm not trying to belittle him, at all.   Leo used his resources incredibly wisely and, as a result, created a highly successful company in the process.  

What we ended up with, as a result of his personal approach is a "hi-fi" tube amp.   Early designs, such as the Fender Champ, really didn't have much to them.   Two gain stages and a power amp with a single output tube running in class A.  Early Champs consisted of a single 12AX7, or similar, preamp tube and a volume control.  That was it.   Later Champs added a tone control, which was simply a "high cut".  Later Champs got even more elaborate with Bass / Treble controls (fixed midrange) and finally vibrato/tremolo.   Of course, Fender followed his customers and, eventually, they were wanting louder amps.  It's hard to get "loud" with a pure Class A (single ended (SE) output) so Leo did what every good designer would and grabbed a Class AB output (push-pull) which significantly increased the power output... but I digress.

Fender Preamp Stage Voicing
Attached is a JPG of the first stage of a normal Fender Preamp.  This one happens to be from the Twin Reissue.  Doesn't matter, almost all Fender amps follow this EXACT same topology.   Remember I said, above, that Leo Fender took designs straight from the RCA Tube Manual and that his focus was on "purity", in terms of amplification.

Well, in a Fender amp ALL stages amplify all frequencies equally - flat response is what this is called? So, if I'm looking at a schematic, how do I tell?  If you look at this JPG file, you'll see the cathode resistor, on the tube (R5 - approximately bottom center).    This resistor "biases" the tube and sets its operating point.  It also determines how much "gain" the tube stage will have and how "warm" or "cold" or "harsh" it will be.  The basic rule of thumb, here is:  1.5K values, in this position, are the balance between "warm" and "cold/harsh".   The lower the resistor value the "warmer" the tube stage will sound.   The larger this resistor value the "dryer" or "harsher" this stage will sound.   This resistor actually allows, or disallows more current to flow through the tube.   A larger value, here, reduces/disallows current flow.  A lower value in this position allows more current to flow.   Greater current = warmer.  

Immediately we jump to the conclusion that no resistor at all would be THE WARMEST!  Well, in truth, it is BUT!!!! always a but.   When this resistor is missing, tube gain, or transconductance, is at its highest level.   Transconductance is a term used to describe how "efficient" a tube is at converting small input signals into huge output signals.   The input signal will need to be almost nothing (roughly 1 / 1000 of what a guitar would put out) in order for this stage to even run without all out maddening distortion.  So, in practice, there needs to be some value of resistance, here.   Typical values, in this spot, range from 820 ohms to roughly 3000 (3k) ohms.   Most Marshalls have at least one 820 ohm resistor in one of their stages.  

Fenders, typically, utilize 1.5K ohm resistors in this spot.   Now, moving on to other things.   If you'll notice, to the left of R5 is C1 (22uF, 25V).  This is what is called a capacitor.   I know... I know... the size of this capacitor actually determines the frequency response of this stage.   There is a formula:

(1 / 2 * pi * R * C)

Where:

pi    =   3.1415
R     =  Resistance value in ohms
C     =  Capacitor value in farads

The result of this math is a "cutoff frequency".   This frequency acts as a high pass filter which operates at 6dB per octave.   So, for every octave below the "cutoff" frequency, the level will be 6dB less.  

For this amp, this stage passes all frequencies above 4.8Hz (well below 20Hz and the threshold of human hearing) with flat response.   Very clean.  

This cathode bypass capacitor has another effect on the tube operation.   It increases SIGNAL gain and makes this stage operate, when signals are present, more like it would if there were no cathode resistor at all.   The DC levels, which control how much current flows all the time when no signal is present, doesn't change, at all.  

Finally, the input resistor (R3, 1M) is what is used to "capture" your guitar signal.   The larger the value of this resistor the more "cleanly" the preamp stage will pick up the guitar signal AND all of its minute variations and harmonics.   In a Fender-style preamp this value is, typically 1M.   A high value resistor, like this, will not "load" your guitar pickups.  As this value creeps downward (500K, 100K, 68K, etc) the input, to the preamp, will gradually "load" your guitars pickups.   The greater the "load" presented by the input impedance, to the preamp, the "duller" your guitar will actually sound.  At some point, just below the 100K mark, it starts to get harder and harder to differentiate between the sound of a Strat or a Les Paul being plugged into the amplifier, believe it or not.   That's why you rarely see a value, in this position, below 100K ohms.

The other resistor, there, (68K) is a "grid stop" resistor.  It's sole function is to "protect" the tube from any electricity that might be coming into the input (from poorly designed effects units, etc.) from damaging the tube.   You will see this type of "protection" in solid-state effects pedals, as well, feeding the input transistors or op-amps.  

You'll notice, here, that immediately following the first gain stage is the tone stack.   The tone stack, on this amp, consists of 3 capacitors (C2/250pF, C3/.1uF and C4/.047uF), 1 resistor (R6/100K) and 3 potentiometers/variable resistors (R7/250K, R8/250K, R9/10k).   This comprises the "tone stack" for this amplifier.   C2/250pF is the "treble cap" and determines, in part, the "balance" of high frequencies to low frequencies in the tone stack.    The resistor (R6/100K) is what is commonly referred to as the "slope resistor" and this resistor controls the balance of high frequencies to low frequencies.  The larger this value the more dominant the high frequencies will be. The lower this value, the less dominant they will be.   Marshall uses 33K in this position (more low frequency) and Fender uses 100K for that more "glassy" high end they're famous for.    

One final note, if you don't see a capacitor across the cathode resistor (i.e. if C1 were non-existant) this means that the stage has a ruler flat frequency response from 0Hz (DC) to the frequency limit of the tube.   These are also common in Fenders.
FENDER_FIRST_STAGE.jpg
OK... I ran out of space, and out of time, for today... I'll continue on this thread, tomorrow...

Outta here for tonite.

Dar
Another Killer post Dar.

Thanks,

Randy  :)
I follow you, I think.  So, for our purpose, or mine anyway, the amp "is what it is".  What about the guitar signal?  Is there an optimum value that should enter a given amp?  Does it differ for various amps?  How do you know that the level coming out of your 27 pedals is optimum for the amp design?
DM;

Good question, actually.   A well designed set of electronics, in a guitar, should be able to "capture" the sound of the guitar well and allow it to be transferred down your cable to the guitar amp appropriately.   Of course, as with anything "well designed" is a subjective term and is interpreted different ways by different people, so I'm going to leave that alone.   Honestly, pretty much every guitar, out there, is put together pretty well.   Some have grounding, shielding or other issues but, typically, those are the bargain basement things you buy at Wal-Mart and Target.  

So, good guitar, good quality cable (doesn't have to be Monster Cable, there are plenty of other good quality products out there for about 75% less money) will be all that you need.   If the guitar amp, or pedal, input impedance is well above 100K (100,000) ohms you should be able to accurately capture whatever is coming out of the guitar.  

The other topic - "appropriate level" has to deal with what is called "Gain Staging", a relatively complex topic, overall that I, or others, might want to tackle.  

Gain staging, in its purest form, simply means getting the signal level at the input of the chain (first pedal, or amp, or preamp, or whatever) at its strongest level.   The first stage of any chain determines the best Signal to Noise Ratio that you can obtain with the entire chain.  I'm not sure exactly how to explain this, so I'm going to attempt this way:

Each pedal, preamp stage, etc. generates noise as a function of being powered up.   Because most devices have several stages of amplification (a preamp, amplifies) the noise is amplified by the gain value of each stage.  So, to simplify, if there is 1V RMS of noise at the input of a stage, and the stage gain is 40, the noise output will be 40V RMS.  

Now, let's say your signal is "staged" to enter this device at 1V RMS, too.   The signal and the noise entering the stage are at exactly the same level.   The noise will mask the signal and the signal will mask the noise.   What you end up with is a signal to noise ratio of 0dB - signal and noise are the same level.

Adding more to this, and some nasty maths to make it work out... Let's say the signal now enters the stage at 10V RMS.   Noise is at 1V RMS.    The formula:

20 * log (V1 / V2) = dB

V1 = Signal  (RMS)
V2 = Noise (RMS)

In this case, the signal to noise ratio is 20dB.

Let's say the signal level increases 50% to 15V RMS - the resultant SNR is:   23.5dB.

If the absolute maximum signal level you can pump into the first stage is 25V RMS (around +20dBu) you will achieve an SNR of approximately 28dB.

In real life no preamp/effect worth its money would ever create 1V RMS of noise as an Ein (Equivalent Input Noise Voltage).   I'm just using that as an example to show how this all works out.


So, in gain staging, then, goal 1 = Signal as loud as humanly/electronically possible into the first stage/pedal.

From pedal 1 to pedal 2...   the output of pedal 1 is either fixed (as in a chorus or flanger, or similar) or variable (as in distortion pedals and similar).   The input of pedal #2 has its own parameters of input levels it "likes" or performs best at.   So the goal, then, would be to adjust the output of the first pedal so that it matches the "sweet spot" of the input of the next pedal in line and so on until you get to the amp.  Same thing will happen there.

Let's say your amp LOVE's 1V RMS at the input - that's where it performs/sounds the best to you.   The output of your last pedal in the chain is 3V RMS (9.5dB too hot).   You will need to build an attenuator to "drop" that voltage down to a more acceptable level.  This can be done many ways, which I won't get into right now.  

Let's say that your last pedal in the chain outputs a signal at 500mV RMS (1/2 volt)... well, then you'd need to "amplify" that output up 6dB (20 * log .5/1) to get things right for your amp.

That, basically, is "gain staging".  

One other thing... if you noticed the last example (1/2 volt to 1 V = 6dB gain).   If some of you remember some of my other posts on guitar amp output and SPL, I noted that a 3dB SPL change requires a DOUBLING in amplifier power!   Here, a doubling of VOLTAGE = 6dB of change!  

Why the discrepancy?   In the amplifier scenario we were working with power (Watts) and in this case we are working with voltage (volts).  Voltage is a single quantity.   Power is a composite quantity consisting of both voltage and current.   It gets a bit more complicated than that, but that is, largely, the reason why you have to pay attention to your input/output term (voltage, power, current) so that you end up with the correct result.

When working with power ratios the equation is:

10 * log (P1 / P2)

Where P1 = Power In
Where P2 = Power Out

Working with voltage ratios the equation is:

20 * log (V1 / V2)

Where V1 = Voltage In
Where V2 = Voltage Out

Enjoy... let me know if you have questions.  


Dar
Well, I read that twice, regurgitated it, tried to swallow it again, but still can't keep it down.  :D  Naw, I get the gist of most of it, but simply, is there a sure way to know you are getting the best signal to your amp.

I'm resigned to the fact that most of what I'm putting in there is crap, But I do want my crap sounding the best it can. :D  It sounds like you are saying that one can have more or less signal than needed.  I relate that to mud.

If there was a way to easily measure or maintain a consistant signal level, so that is out of the tonal equation, would be cool.  I'm sure there is, I'm just unaware.

Sure, tone is in the fingers.  But would those fingers sound best with the proper equipment.  Just curious.
Sure....good amp, good guitar, good fingers.... equals great sound!  ;)  ;D

Who needs all that junk in between?  ;D

Randy

One other thing... if you noticed the last example (1/2 volt to 1 V = 6dB gain).   If some of you remember some of my other posts on guitar amp output and SPL, I noted that a 3dB SPL change requires a DOUBLING in amplifier power!   Here, a doubling of VOLTAGE = 6dB of change!  

Dar



Hey - I remember some old physics lessons here :)

Assuming resistance R is constant

P = V^2/R

which means a doubling of V equals a quadrupling of P

i.e. a 6db increase

DM;

In response to your question, ultimately, it comes down to personal taste and what makes you feel like playing.   There aren't any hard, or fast, rules about how to get signals into an amp and/or what levels those signals should be hitting the amp at, that's why there's such a plethora of guitars, amps, pickups, pedals, boosters, EQ's, etc. out there on the market.  

I'll relate my personal taste/experience.   When I started this whole playing gig a long time ago (before the age of multi-effects and before, almost, there were multiple effects to buy) I wanted "loud" and "distorted".   So I bought distortion pedals that provided a ton of gain and distortion and plugged that into an amp with the knobs twisted to 11.  Now, listening to that, it sounds like pure _____...  to me.  

A while later, when effects had finally been invented I was into RUSH who used pretty much everything the market had to offer... and I puttered with flangers, chorus, delays, phasers and the like...

Then I got "saved" and went from metal/hard rock to country.   Though some, on this board, would feel as though Dante were marching through their lives if they felt this was "saving" and I learned all about compressors and their ability to pick up the slack where my playing left off.   Kept my levels perfectly even... then EQ's came into the picture...

I've come full circle, actually, these days.  I have a gaggle of effects (pretty much every BOSS pedal produced), multieffects, modeling effects... you name it. It's rack mounted, floor mounted, recording ready, studio quiet...   99% of the time I grab one of my guitars and a SINGLE cable and plug the guitar DIRECT into the amp and play.

In the interim period, though, I spent a long while tweaking each thing to sound exactly as I wanted it to sound....  

So, all of that said, some thoughts about this...  in a "normal" signal chain, you'd typically place your WAH(s), distortions, compressions and, sometimes, EQ, prior to the amp input jack.   Plug your guitar into that mess and out of the mess comes the cable that plugs into the guitar amp input.

The preamp output will, typically, feed modulation effects (chorus, delay, phaser, flanger, etc), delay effects (analog delay, digital delay, tape delay, etc), Reverb and, at times, EQ.  

So, the first thing I'd do, here, is figure out what order you want your effects to be plugged in at.  Do you want the WAH feeding the distortion or the distortion feeding the WAH?   Do you want the distortion to distorted the already distorted amp?  Those kinds of things... once you get the ordering taken care of, then putter with the stuff that has levels on it, to get those correct.

So, let's say you're using two pedals at the front of the amp that have output level adjustment - a compressor and a distortion box.   I typically run my guitar into a WAH pedal, the WAH hits the compressor, the compressor is plugged into the distortion box(s) and the output of all of that is plugged into the amp input.   When I turn on the compressor I want semi-serious compression (I suck as a player and can't play very evenly) BUT I want the level to be about the same as when the compressor is turned off.  

So, I plug ONLY the compressor and the guitar into the amp... I turn off the compressor and play the guitar and get an idea for about how much it hurts my ears.  Then I turn on the compressor and set the controls so it compresses the way I like.  Turn it off and compare the levels.   If it's louder off, then I turn up the output level on the compressor, too soft, I turn it up... the same, I don't touch it.  The more "accurate" way to do this is to go to your local Radio Shack, drop a half a hundred, and get a Sound Pressure Level Meter (SPL).    Put that in front of the amp and set it to "Slow" averaging.    Play a bunch of stuff and look at what SPL level the thing hangs around at without the compressor on.   Then, tweak the compressor to your liking, play some more and get the levels to be the same, most of the time and, you're done.

Next, your distortion pedal... there are two ways to use distortion:  1) On the clean channel to create an "overdrive" effect there.   2) On the "Lead" channel which is, typically, already distorted.   You get a bit more sustain and more harmonic contents and it works nicely for solo work, etc.  

If you're using it on the "Clean" channel to move from more "clean" to "rhythm" tones, then you'll not want the levels to change as much.   Remember that distortion generates high frequency harmonic content, and high frequencies SOUND louder to our ears... so, in that instance, most of the time, you'd plug in the distortion pedal and the guitar, tweak the distortion to sound exactly as you want it, then work with the level control between on/off to make sure that when you click it on it doesn't overpower whatever you're trying to accomplish but, rather, blends nicely.

Same thing goes if you're using the distortion to "push the amp over the edge".  However, in this case, I'd set the amp the way I want it, first, with just the guitar.  Then add the distortion pedal with the gain down and the output level up.   Here is the "tricky" part because you have a choice as to how you use your distortion pedal to supplement your amplifier distortion.   You can crank the gain up on the pedal and get it all distorted, then distort that distortion with the distorted amp... the other way to do it is to use your pedal as an "EQ" (all distortion pedals have some sort of high pass shelf built in) and a "gain booster".  

In the latter setting (most common way to use them) you'd get your amp distortion right where you want it.  Then plug in the distortion pedal, turn the "Gain" down to "0" and bring up the level until you get just the "right" amount of added distortion.  Then move the "Tone" control(s) around until the sound of the two together is what you're going after and you're done.  

In the former, you'd still tweak the amp the way you want it.   Then, plug in the distortion pedal, turn the gain all the way down, turn the Output Level to about 1/2 way (that's usually close to "unity gain", which means you have the same level out as going in).  If the output level is adding way too much distortion with the gain turned down, at this point, then back it off until it "sounds right".   Then, bring up the "Gain" until the sound "saturates" the way you want it to.  This will produce a much more "singing sustain" but you have to be careful with it cuz it can get buzzy in a quick hurry.

Now, the "curious" part of my pedal setup is why the WAH feeding the compressor?   WAH's have that "peaky" response pattern that moves around and I just plain don't like it when it either feeds the amp, or the distortion pedals directly.  I like the sound of the WAH, not the behavior of the the thing, so I compress the living snot out of the thing, along with my guitar and that way I keep the sound and not the "peaky response".   That's just me.  You may, or may not, enjoy that.  Either way, it's your taste and your tone.   If it makes you feel good, do it!  

Lastly, pedals like Chorus, Flange, Delay don't have output levels, so what goes in, comes out.  You typically only get to choose the settings and/or how much of the effect is mixed with the "dry" signal.   Plug those in in the preferred order and tweak to taste and you're done.

Hope it helps... keep asking...

Dar
Yeah, That does help.  I'm gonna try to change out speakers today and fire up the Bi-Valve, so I'll play around with some of your suggestions to better get a grip of it.  I don't have a compressor pedal any more, but of course I have a wah and distortion to futz with.  I appreciate your response.
Deano,

Here is a link to an interesting concept from Dave Barber. I really like this method and use it almost all the time.  

http://www.tpngear.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=169
Thanks Howie.  I did finally get that speaker changed out today with the Classic Lead that you sold me.  I'm gonna fire it up in a bit.
It's not even broken in yet (was used in a 5 watt amp here) but I'm sure your amp is up to the task.