The Watering Hole

Fly on Red Baron,

His call sign during the Korean War was "The Red Baron". He flew the F86 Fighter Jet into North Korea and likely into China although he never admitted going into China. He kept his oath of secrecy.

The man was a friend and a warrior, and although there is a part of me who would like to miss him. I would prefer to honor his spirit with the words Fly on Red Baron to new experiences, and to new worlds.

I know something about the spirit, and I believe that we humans are actually energy beings who stop by Earth, experience organic existence, and when we die we resume what we always were; long existing energy beings.

I believe that Joe is now his true self. I talked with him about this a week or so ago. and gave him my impressions of what happens after organic life.

So fly on Red Baron, I will not hold you to this Earth with my longing. You are free to fly away.

I think I'll get one of those triangles tattoo'ed onto the bottom of my foot so they know I'm recyclable.  I just hope they put me in the correct bin...  ;)

"long existing energy beings."

Sory to hear about your friend! I'd love to hear a more detailed explanation of your above quote though. Sounds like a new twist. :-/

Hookbender — Jun 21, 2009"long existing energy beings."

Sory to hear about your friend! I'd love to hear a more detailed explanation of your above quote though. Sounds like a new twist. :-/

there were some Mexican Indian Shamans who had a particular view of what we are as human beings. And they gave that quote, it is the one that pleases me the most. I found it in the Carlos Castaneda book called the Active Side Of Infinity. In that book there is information about possibilities that never occurred to me. I never saw those ideas in the organized religious teachings. Something inside of me likes those ideas.

Why can't humans be satisfied with the concept that we are born.....then we die, the end? I think we tend to worry to much about what happens after death rather than concentrate on what we can do alive. No one knows what happens after death, but we can pretty much assume that.....we simply die, parish.

All this science fiction and over use of the imagination doesn't really do much good. It's kinda a false hope-crutch.

Hookbender — Jun 21, 2009Why can't humans be satisfied with the concept that we are born.....then we die, the end? I think we tend to worry to much about what happens after death rather than concentrate on what we can do alive. No one knows what happens after death, but we can pretty much assume that.....we simply die, parish.

All this science fiction and over use of the imagination doesn't really do much good. It's kinda a false hope-crutch.

Of course the end at death is a distinct possibility, and I see that as valid as any other idea. I do not really care what happens to me after death. If I go on, I will adapt, if not I will not really care, will I? I choose to believe that we are something else because of my early childhood dreams and because it tickles my fancy to see death as an adventure rather than the end. But truth be told, it does not really matter.

We humans are all fools anyway, even the best of us are simply just animals, a little higher on the intellect chain than the other animals. However most folks think of themselves as immortal grandiose beings, way better than the other life forms on and around Earth.

I know the truth, humanity has a very long way to go in the evolutionary chain yet.

desertbluesman — Jun 21, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1245519879/0#4 date=1245598972]Why can't humans be satisfied with the concept that we are born.....then we die, the end? I think we tend to worry to much about what happens after death rather than concentrate on what we can do alive. No one knows what happens after death, but we can pretty much assume that.....we simply die, parish.

All this science fiction and over use of the imagination doesn't really do much good. It's kinda a false hope-crutch.

Of course the end at death is a distinct possibility, and I see that as valid as any other idea. I do not really care what happens to me after death. If I go on, I will adapt, if not I will not really care, will I? I choose to believe that we are something else because of my early childhood dreams and because it tickles my fancy to see death as an adventure rather than the end. But truth be told, it does not really matter.

We humans are all fools anyway, even the best of us are simply just animals, a little higher on the intellect chain than the other animals. However most folks think of themselves as immortal grandiose beings, way better than the other life forms on and around Earth.

I know the truth, humanity has a very long way to go in the evolutionary chain yet.

Well, if you go by what we know right now, death, the end, is the only possibility. It seems you have strong superstitious thoughts.

I don't see how death could be considered an adventure. If it were, it would be a bad adventure. If one dies in his sleep, no adventure in that is there?

I don't think all humans are fools. In fact, some are damn right  unbelievably smart. Just opposite of what you think.

Again, don't see the need for all the dreams of after death experiences.

you just see the need to ridicule someone on their beliefs? the guy lost a friend, and people cope in various ways. most data i've seen suggests that between 80-90 percent of the world has religious beliefs that all involve some type of afterlife. if we go by your assumption that most humans are intelligent, where does that leave your point?

somewhere near Kev-ville  :o

chase — Jun 22, 2009you just see the need to ridicule someone on their beliefs? the guy lost a friend, and people cope in various ways. most data i've seen suggests that between 80-90 percent of the world has religious beliefs that all involve some type of afterlife. if we go by your assumption that most humans are intelligent, where does that leave your point?

Ridicule his beliefs?? Of course not. I was interested in his belief. His explanation. I know he lost a friend, I can read.

It really doesn't matter what the rest of the world believes, that doesn't make it factual. Or logical. And I don't think 90% is even close to a actual figure. The fact is religious beliefs are on the decline.

Go back and read my post and you'll see my point is very clear. The point is that all humans are not fools, as he said.

I understand he lost a friend. I was interested in his after death explanation. I thought it may be interesting, but it turned out to be simply another superstitious, dreamed up thought. That's not an insult, it's just reality. People are free to believe whatever they want. I just find it interesting how people's imagination runs wild with all this life after death stuff.

"long existing energy beings."  You don't find this kinda interesting? As in you'd like to hear more about this? Kinda out there, don't ya think? ;D

"We humans are all fools anyway"....and do you agree with this? ;D

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

chase — Jun 22, 2009you just see the need to ridicule someone on their beliefs? the guy lost a friend, and people cope in various ways. most data i've seen suggests that between 80-90 percent of the world has religious beliefs that all involve some type of afterlife. if we go by your assumption that most humans are intelligent, where does that leave your point?

No big deal, what he thinks is of no consequence to me, thanks for your defense. I am not grieving. I am already over it. I do not grieve for long. And my grief is never very strong.

So, what does your chart show Chase? 33% of people are christians? And did you read anything under the chart?

Nothing I said needs to be defended. It's two different opinions. Mine just isn't superstitious. And nothing I said was meant to be offensive. I was thinking we were simply two people having a discussion. About life after death. Seperate from the loss of his friend which I'm surely simpathetic to.

Now, what's the point of this chart? Has nothing to do with life after death and 33% of people being Christian believers shows a fairly low number....even if the chart were credible.

In the last 2 centries, christianity has declined around 10 points from roughly 86% to 76%. In America. And the number of athiest has risen a pretty good amount. From around 1 million to around 3.5 million. But that doesn't include people who call themselves a Christian who don't follow Christianity. Or even attend church.

I would say that any life after death thought comes mainly from Christianity or religious beliefs which are based on superstitious unfounded thoughts....those beliefs which include 0 evidence.

Where the hell are the Pastafarians on that chart??!  :-? ;)

And the damn people who worship trees, the sun, the moon, and beer.

chase, the number you posted is a little off (as is that chart).  If you add up the atheists (2%) the non-religious (12%) and the Buddhists (6%) you get a good 20% who do not believe in God.  Most people don't realize that buddhism is not really a religion in itself... there is no theism in Buddhism, unless you can call suffering a god.

Not that I think it has anything to do with anything.  

And I do happen to agree that the best description of death I have heard that has any theistic overtones at all is as an energy transfer... after death our bodies are converted to other forms of energy (I'm not talking about a soul)--just as we convert creatures we kill and eat into other forms of energy, and just as our bodies feed worms and flies, or burn in a kiln, or decompose in a lake...

But what are we transferring? When we die, our blood is pumped out of our bodies. Some fluid pumped in. then we are sealed up in a casket. Then buried at least 6 feet under earth.

Again, what kind of energy are we transferring in this case?

Unless there is a extreme case of murder of some sorts, and the body decays naturally some how, we would be taking energy away more than transferring it anywhere.

It simply doesn't make sense to me to fantasize about what happens after death. It's just silly.

Hookbender — Jun 22, 2009So, what does your chart show Chase? 33% of people are christians? And did you read anything under the chart?

Nothing I said needs to be defended. It's two different opinions. Mine just isn't superstitious. And nothing I said was meant to be offensive. I was thinking we were simply two people having a discussion. About life after death. Seperate from the loss of his friend which I'm surely simpathetic to.

Now, what's the point of this chart? Has nothing to do with life after death and 33% of people being Christian believers shows a fairly low number....even if the chart were credible.

In the last 2 centries, christianity has declined around 10 points from roughly 86% to 76%. In America. And the number of athiest has risen a pretty good amount. From around 1 million to around 3.5 million. But that doesn't include people who call themselves a Christian who don't follow Christianity. Or even attend church.

I would say that any life after death thought comes mainly from Christianity or religious beliefs which are based on superstitious unfounded thoughts....those beliefs which include 0 evidence.

who brought up christianity? i was talking organized religion as a whole. the point i was making is the vast majority of people believe in an afterlife of some sort. that is non-debatable. the most generous figures i've seen towards atheism, Buddhism, etc comined still leave a whopping 75% of the population with some religion.

i just don't understand why you needed to crash his thread about a lost friend with your anti-religious talk. trust me we get it; peek into the religion/politics threads every now and again and it's abundantly clear.

Hookbender — Jun 22, 2009even if the chart were credible.

does a gallup poll work for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions

Hookbender — Jun 22, 2009
I would say that any life after death thought comes mainly from Christianity or religious beliefs which are based on superstitious unfounded thoughts....those beliefs which include 0 evidence.

now were getting to the ridiculing part. lets keep it clean

Hookbender — Jun 22, 2009 I would say that any life after death thought comes mainly from Christianity or religious beliefs which are based on superstitious unfounded thoughts....those beliefs which include 0 evidence.

Heh, missed this one the first time around!

Actually, there's literally all the evidence in the world that there's life after death!  Just not necessarily any particular kind of existence that most religious tomes spew.  Your underlying questions revolve around whether there is some form of "YOU" that persists after your meat vessel decays and if you'll happen to have any memory of the experience.  Of course, that breeds more fun questions like "Does fertilizer remember being a daisy?"  :)

An interesting thought experiment is to consider that every cell in your body is completely new about every ten years (the skin changes the quickest with the bones being the slowest).  This would seem to indicate that you've been converting yourself into energy and back to matter since you were born into this "life" - fun headgame, eh?

Man - We're just patterns in space and time even joey.

chase — Jun 23, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1245519879/0#12 date=1245691496]So, what does your chart show Chase? 33% of people are christians? And did you read anything under the chart?

Nothing I said needs to be defended. It's two different opinions. Mine just isn't superstitious. And nothing I said was meant to be offensive. I was thinking we were simply two people having a discussion. About life after death. Seperate from the loss of his friend which I'm surely simpathetic to.

Now, what's the point of this chart? Has nothing to do with life after death and 33% of people being Christian believers shows a fairly low number....even if the chart were credible.

In the last 2 centries, christianity has declined around 10 points from roughly 86% to 76%. In America. And the number of athiest has risen a pretty good amount. From around 1 million to around 3.5 million. But that doesn't include people who call themselves a Christian who don't follow Christianity. Or even attend church.

I would say that any life after death thought comes mainly from Christianity or religious beliefs which are based on superstitious unfounded thoughts....those beliefs which include 0 evidence.

who brought up christianity? i was talking organized religion as a whole. the point i was making is the vast majority of people believe in an afterlife of some sort. that is non-debatable. the most generous figures i've seen towards atheism, Buddhism, etc comined still leave a whopping 75% of the population with some religion.

i just don't understand why you needed to crash his thread about a lost friend with your anti-religious talk. trust me we get it; peek into the religion/politics threads every now and again and it's abundantly clear.


I simplified it a little. And how do you know what the majoriety of people think? Your lumping religion as a whole, people who call themselves religious, to believing in some afterlife. How do you know what the majoriety of people believe? If you say you believe in God, but never attend church, discuss the bible or religion, never pray....does that automatically make one religious? I don't think so. And there are many catagories you left out. What about people who make no claim whatsoever? Are people who worship the earth religious also?

And for the last time, I didn't intend to crash his thread. And for your information, your helping me crash it your damn self by continuing this debate. So get off your high horse and attempt to realize that I was simply interested in the mans thoughts about afterlife. It's as simple as that.

It seems to me that you just have a dislike for people with different views than that of your own, whatever they may be. I don't think he was affended by my interest and if he is, I apologize to him. I really don't care what you think. Although, I don't mind beating the bushes with you, it's kind of funny.

What do you mean by keep it clean? You mean, don't be quite so honest or just don't have an opinion at all? :-/

I guess I would agree with you that most people believe in life after death. But that's because most people, a majoriety that's declining in number, believe in God or a God. So the basis of believing in a after life, for the most part, stems from belief in God or religion. Which....falls in the catogory of superstitious beliefs....which is a fact, not a insult.

What difference does this make....0. None. It's what it is. The great unknown. The big mystery. You either buy in to afterlife stuff, or your the type person who just doesn't care, or you require evidence or proof something exist before you believe it, or realize it. I happen to believe the last sentence, and I'm probably correct. But it doesn't hurt to dream does it. ;D

I think the belief in an afterlife persists for a very simple reason: To most people, the idea of "living forever" is really cool.

Nevermind that science has pretty much disproven any concept of a soul, or of any sort of real "life after death" experience.

That's unimportant to a person who feels the need for greater meaning to their life. They need an answer - something at the end that makes all the toil and pain worth it.

And then some of us like the idea, but accept the reality that this might be all we have, so we need to make the best of it and savor every moment we can (when our own frustration or distraction isn't keeping us from really enjoying our lives).

For those who believe, I'm sure there's comfort in forever. For those who don't, those we love live on in our memories of them - they're with us until we die, and hopefully we're with those who love us until they die, and so on, etc.

May the Red Baron rest in peace. A portion of his life is etched into history, and he will live on far longer than most people will.

Provided science and all us non-believers are wrong about the whole life-after-death thing... :)
Tripper