26 posts
Now that they've both been out for a while, what do you guys think about these?
For recording at home, is one better than the other or two different approaches?
Could a lot of hardware be sold and replaced with one (especially the FX)?
As I have owned both units in the past, my opinion is not biased toward one unit or the other. I'm not going to do an in-depth study of either unit, just the basic "are they any good and did they work for me" (obviously not as I sold both).
Firstly I would say that neither unit lives up to the overblown hype.
AXE-FX Ultra - Some really fantastic effects and synth-like sounds are available with this unit. However, the basic guitar amp sounds all sound a bit too brittle and digital for my liking. The unit is touch responsive....until you then play a real amp again and you realise that it's not the same at all.
Kemper - Onboard effects are not very good at all (at least not at the version of the firmware that I had). The profiled amps and cabs are very good and do sound like a recorded version of the real thing. Profiling my own amp/cab at the time did a very good convincing job of sounding like a recorded version of the real thing. But once again, the touch response of all the profiled amps (including my own profiles) is not the same as playing the real thing.
Touch response/feel is something that is very important to me, particularly as I like an amp sound that is driven into breakup. I'm not really keen on tons of gain, never have been. I like to hear the sound of the guitar in the tone. Both units are very good if you want tons of gain on tap, but for the cranked amp pushed over the edge for breakup the touch response just isn't there for me.
A real amp and cab wins hands down every time.
Damn Craig. You have been hanging out in Hooky's smokeroom to much. :D Starting a topic like this. Sheesh!!!!! ;D
For $2000 for these units, they'd replace a lot of gear. Maybe some furniture, a wife. ;)
I never tried either one of them. But from the clips I have heard, I think either one would serve it's purpose in direct recording or live use. When I sold my PodXT I never bought another modeler. I still do have a Tonelab Table Top and a Digitech GNX2. The Tonelab is used only very infrequently, (probably 2 years since last use) The GNX2 gets used every third practice day for one patch of harmonies, neither one of them will be repaired or replaced when they die off.
My problem with modelers is they sound like modelers, some of them better than others.
I would like to try a Pod HD bean for direct recording. And one day in the near future I may pull the trigger on that item or it's successor. For the bucks it might be the right thing for recording. Right now I can get all of the recorded sounds I like from my Valve Jr head/EVM12 Speaker cab, and Nady TD1 tube stomp, or my super Champ X2. Both miked up with a SM57.
If I do decide to rebuild my recording capabilities, I will probably get the Pod Bean also, for the dollars it sounds as good as anything else out there (for the two sounds I use, clean and overdrive) I record everything dry and compressed, and add verb or delay or whatever else in my recording app.
DM — Dec 21, 2013Damn Craig. You have been hanging out in Hooky's smokeroom to much. :D Starting a topic like this. Sheesh!!!!! ;D
For $2000 for these units, they'd replace a lot of gear. Maybe some furniture, a wife. ;)
I was just sitting here letting my mind wander. I start interviews next week for a position at a nice company that's only about a mile away from the house. They have about a dozen different job openings that I partially or fully qualify for plus excellent benefits (including a 50% 401K match). I'm just counting some chickens before they're hatched and dreaming. ;D
Every once in a while, while hearing some other really nice tone that I don't have, I'll start thinking maybe there's a pedal that would get me close, or (gadzooks) maybe the POD HD (X?) might work for it. But then I barely have time to play what I have already. I think what it comes down to, is the modelling units are both fun and annoying. Fun to mess with something different when you're in the mood to do so, and annoying when you discover you can't quite get what you think you should be able to.
I am curious what the current generation sounds like, but don't really have time to go to GC and check one out. And there's no way I have money for Kemper or AxeFX. I've heard some decent clips on the net but most are so overloaded with effects you get kinda suspicious about what's being covered up, like the girl with too much perfume...
RectoZilla — Dec 22, 2013like the girl with too much perfume...
;D I think I went out with her many years ago ;D
I get suckered in to the modelling thing everytime a new bit of gear comes around. It's the eternal hope that one day it will actually be the real deal....never has been so far though.
Well, gee Jon, you never tried the Axe FX II! "They" (see Howie for a definition of this ;) ) say it's much better than the Ultra. :D ;D
I can only comment on the Axe FX. I think it was the II. Chase owned it and brought it to the big jam. Now granted, he was using a friggin' Bogner for his power amp to run it.....BUT....we also ran that into the school system with some yamaha amps and it was still amazing.
I thought it was very touch responsive and remember just really not wanting to like it because it was digital and I had just come off the Vetta. But it was really really nice and there was sooooooo much you could do with it. Everything it did, I thought it did at a very high level.
Ultimately, I had had really bad experiences with digital amps, (2 line 6 Vettas) and that was enough to not go this way. I'll let time be the boss on if I should go that way ever.
I haven't loaded firmware in anything in years and I don't miss it, not one bit.
Some day that level of processing will be available at a price point we can all afford. At this point I don't have any interest in spending 2k to find out whether it's finally the digital thingie I will love. I just love tube amps and analog pedals... but really, at this point there are chips out there that smoke the SHARCs these older devices are based on. The processing power in the iPhone 5S is beyond the processing power in a Kemper or Axe Fx, and the new processors are 64 bit. The level of detail that will be available in future modelling tech is something we can't even really imagine now. I think eventually it will be a choice to choose tubes, not a necessity for the feel. At this point I just can't feel digital like I feel tubes.
Tubes are simple, the tube amps are simple, and they do everything I need done. But I would purchase something like the Pod HD bean for easy recording if I was still doing that very much. All that stuff has it's place, I simply like tube amps and tube distortion pedals. They get the job done simple and easy.
There is nothing in my experience that rivals a tube amp turned up enough to get the power tubes crankin (Something I can't do much here when the snow birds are around). But when the summer hits, I can get the HRD crankin and what a difference. There is a feel to that than can be emulated in sound but not feel.......
No experience with an Axe but the KPA has easily been the best piece of guitar gear that I have bought. FWIW, I've been a long time user of modeling gear (all the L6 stuff) for studio use so can't speak of it use in live situations but don't think I will ever need to replace it. Tons of great free profiles and some even better commercial profiles. The only gripe I really have is that they are so many profiles I have downloaded or bought and no official editor/librarian yet which makes management a pain in the ass.
As for effects, Kemper meets all my needs. I'm running an HD500 (effects only and to control my Variax and KPA) in front of it but hardly ever use the effects. They have been firmware updates that gave us more effects and I believe this will continue for many years.
Not sure if this video has been posted here before but it demonstrates some of the dynamics you can coax out of the unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHpWWcbNHrk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Cheers,
jayson
I don't know about the Axe-FX, but the Kemper poweramp, 600 watt Bang & Olufsen Class D, into a real guitar cabinet, actually sounds better than many tube amps.
In the studio, well, you can mic amps all day long, or just use the Kemper, because it sounds exactly like the amps you're mic'ing.
Not sure what John means by overblown hype?
When full time professional sessions musicians, touring guitarists, pro engineers, producers and pro studio owners all say the Kemper is a "game changer", that's not overblown hype, that's just the way it is.
The modelers sure do have their place in the studio or live as well. They can simulate almost anything to a degree. However there is nothing more reliable than a good quality well cared for simple tube amp. The programmable things like the modelers are probably more susceptible to electrical spikes that may give the things a headache.
I would certainly be more trusting of a good simple tube amp with one twelve inch speaker. Simple to carry in. Simple to set up, simple to use, as reliable as anything on the market or more so, and far cheaper to purchase and maintain. Having said all of that, the modelers certainly do have their place in the musical field. I prefer a good Fender amp to anything else out there however. Both for recording or for live use. But that is a matter of personal taste.
If I was a studio pro I would also have a modeling device or several of them in studio for quick access to all kinds of goodies right at hand at the push of a button or two. Some of the best recorded guitar sounds I ever got were with modelers. But I have done as well with my $350 Fender Super Champ X2 also. But again I am not a studio pro. If I was, I would want something like the expensive modelers. Not because they please my ears, but because it is certainly a great tool in a professional sense. And would be well worth the dollars spent. My daddy used to tell me that a craftsman is only as good as his tools, and although that is not the whole truth, a good tool certainly makes the job of a craftsman a bit easier.
Yamaha just acquired Line 6, I read that on the The Guitar Players Mag forums yesterday. See link below.
http://line6.com/news/pressReleases/1520
Lance — Dec 24, 2013
Not sure what John means by overblown hype?
When full time professional sessions musicians, touring guitarists, pro engineers, producers and pro studio owners all say the Kemper is a "game changer", that's not overblown hype, that's just the way it is.
and when I say it's overblown hype, that too is just the way it is.....different perspectives that's all, don't worry about it so much.
Jon — Dec 24, 2013
and when I say it's overblown hype, that too is just the way it is.....different perspectives that's all, don't worry about it so much.
There is a lot of overblown hype out by manufacturers and purveyors of the goods they sell. That is part of the game. Of course a person with an interest in selling what he sells uses whatever tools to get the job done. Profit is not a dirty word. If it was we would all still be out hunting in our animal skin clothing. Or farming. But Jon is right there is always one sided hype put out by any purveyor of any product it is a simple sales tool.
see quote below both true, and of course a tool to help sell.
When full time professional sessions musicians, touring guitarists, pro engineers, producers and pro studio owners all say the Kemper is a "game changer", that's not overblown hype, that's just the way it is.
A lot of us use sampled drums. Sampled drums sound great... but they are not a real drummer. And when you learn to play drums, or get a drummer to play on your stuff, you realize it. Sure, most sampled drums are recorded in studios that have 1000x the investment that we have in gear. But still, a mediocre recording of a great drummer smokes samples any day of the week. I feel the same way about current modeling technology... that if I get a good tube amp under my fingers, it's what I want. I'm not saying that won't change... but I don't feel like it has yet. Witness the massive explosion in boutique amp malers over the past few years... clearly some people still love tube amps.
charger — Dec 25, 2013A lot of us use sampled drums. Sampled drums sound great... but they are not a real drummer. And when you learn to play drums, or get a drummer to play on your stuff, you realize it.
Absolutely correct, samples and MIDI sound fine at best, and terrible at worst. I think samples are fine for the level that I recorded at. For demo's.
A live drummer is the engine of the band. When I jammed or played out with a full band, the band brought my playing up many levels beyond what I could do at home against BT's.
Here is how I feel about the importance of a real band. (Speaking as a musician not a fan)
#1 in importance is the drummer (The engine)
#2 is the bass player (the transmission)
Without those two the car don't go, nor does the music.
Then for me at least two keys guys a piano and an organ/synth player. (and rhythm guitar as well)
Those four (or 5) is the cake, without the cake the icing (which is what I do) don't cut it really.
Least important to me is the vocalist and the lead player. I am a big fan of the rhythm section guys, the sidemen to me are the most admired, For one reason; I am not that good of a rhythm player. I can technically do that but, my interest wanders unless I am improvising and my best improvising happens with a live drummer/bassist and power tubes a crankin. Once the power tubes start singing the amp and air moving, that also actually helps to elevate my playing and by far.... I miss that. It is so inspiring to play live with others I would be back at practicing scales and other things for hours a day if I ever run into a good rhythm section.
Of course my preferences are not what the public wants the front man is always the most admired. However he/she has to have a talent so inspiring at vocals to even be considered an important part of the music played. I rarely listen to the lyrics/vocals. I am usually listening to the rhythm section and then the lead player.
Harv
You like Fender amps...here's a video done by a producer in LA of his Fender De Ville that he Profiled.
Point is, you can't tell which is the mic'd amp and which is the Profile, so if you're a producer/studio owner having a Kemper saves you a fortune, no need to buy dozens of amps...hire them and Profile them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmJKA3fqKgo&feature=youtu.be
charger — Dec 25, 2013A lot of us use sampled drums. Sampled drums sound great... but they are not a real drummer. And when you learn to play drums, or get a drummer to play on your stuff, you realize it. Sure, most sampled drums are recorded in studios that have 1000x the investment that we have in gear. But still, a mediocre recording of a great drummer smokes samples any day of the week. I feel the same way about current modeling technology... that if I get a good tube amp under my fingers, it's what I want. I'm not saying that won't change... but I don't feel like it has yet. Witness the massive explosion in boutique amp malers over the past few years... clearly some people still love tube amps.
I agree regarding real drummer VS sampled.
You can't sample the feel each individual drummer creates when he sits behind a kit...real drums will win every time.
But, I think we over hype tube amps, there's more magic in our imagination than in reality.
I see lots of boutique tube amps sitting next to stock Fenders and Marshalls in music stores.
There's a Victoria Bassman sitting here at a music store I hang out in...the Fender HRD, Deluxe Reverbs, Twins are selling everyday, the Victoria is gathering dust...why?, because the guy who bought it fell for the 'boutique' hype and imported it himself, cost him a fortune, he can't sell it because the stock Fender amps sound just as good.
Another friend of mine asked a music store to import him a Dr Z 18, which they did.
It's still sitting in the store, when it arrived the Fender Supersonic 60 head into the matching 2x12 destroyed the Dr Z so he bought the SS...great amp that SS.
The irony is, the guy who runs Fender SA plays a Kemper Powerhead into a Fender Supersonic 2x12 cab live, says it's the best live tone he's ever had, and by far the best recorded tone he's ever had in 25 years of recording.
https://soundcloud.com/temper59/robin-gallagher-the-kemper
Thing is, the Kemper and tube amps will just exist side by side, no ones saying it's the end of tube amps.
I can buy a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe for $600 US, that takes care of all of my amplifier needs. Simple really. If I were to play out again and even go on tour I think a Fender Super Sonic 100 watt amp head and 2-12 " speakers would do everything I need done. The cost of a Super Sonic Amp http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/fender-super-sonic-100-100w-tube-guitar-amp-head vs the Kemper, http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/kemper-profiling-amplifier and double that on each one for a backup unit.
The Fender would be the hands down winner for MY USE both in sonic capability, and cost. I am a simple player all I need are cleans, overdrives, and reverb. All of which are in either amp choice I posted above vs the Kemper or the Kemper power amp and double the price so you have a backup unit for hard road use.
The modelers would be a great asset to any pro recording facility, I don't question that at all. It would also be very useful for a live player that needed effects and different amps on stage. But I don't need that at all......
Lance — Dec 28, 2013Harv
You like Fender amps...here's a video done by a producer in LA of his Fender De Ville that he Profiled.
Point is, you can't tell which is the mic'd amp and which is the Profile, so if you're a producer/studio owner having a Kemper saves you a fortune, no need to buy dozens of amps...hire them and Profile them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmJKA3fqKgo&feature=youtu.be
The only true test for me would be to hear them both live and in person, I have recorded hundreds of tunes and demo's, I know for sure what I put in is not what I get out, they sound only relatively similar, a recorded sound is very (or with great equipment) mildly different than the live sound through guitar amp speakers, so posting you tube video is not the same as hearing the HRD live and the Kemper live with power amp and speakers. Sorry buddy no ceegar on that one.
HD Beans are $199 at sweetwater - i assume this means nextgen line 6 is coming...