37 posts
I am NOT posting this in religion threads because A) I'm not even going to tell you what "A" is because you all know. LOL and B) this is NOT a religious debate. My question is, how do you feel about all the devil stuff in music? Do you believe it's real? Or is it some image they want to produce and all the satan stuff is part of that?
What about the Pentagram? It is all over albums by even bands like Rush, that aren't death metal at all nor are their lyrics indicative of that.
What I want here, is not only your "thoughts" on it, but also any "information" you have regarding specific bands. Example: I loved Black Sabbath growing up, but many people said they were satanists. Many back then said how clear it was due to imagery on albums, lyrics, etc. Yet, there are also lyrics like "After Forever" (if you don't know the song, listen to it. Pretty clear that someone at least believes in God...) Yet, a Satanist WOULD believe in God. Also, if you read guitar mags and/or things like Rolling Stone, there were multiple times that articles said they were admitted satanists. Yet, I specifically saw (not read, saw the interview) where someone asked Ozzie that question directly. At first he kind of tried to avoid it. Then he said something about there had been a lot of speculation to that, etc., but that "while he wouldn't speak for the other guys" that he "was not" and he further said that while he didn't attend church, that he was raised Catholic and that his wife did regularly attend church and that she was Catholic. That was years before she became famous. I also remember after that interview, several other interviewers tried to pin down Iommi and he blew them off, said it was "part of the mistique of the band" etc.
So, all this devil stuff, (and holy crap I've seen a lot of it lately in reviewing some of your music choices in my other thread!). Do these bands believe that? Is it part of the image and they don't believe it? Does it bother you? For those of us who have kids, if you just "like the music and don't pay any attention to the lyrics" does it bother you some of the things your kids could see or hear if they see it?
I'm just interested in all of your thoughts on this.
Lyrics for Black Sabbath "After Forever"
"After Forever"
Have you ever thought about your soul - can it be saved?
Or perhaps you think that when you're dead you just stay in your grave
Is God just a thought within your head or is he a part of you?
Is Christ just a name that you read in a book when you were in school?
When you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool?
Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope - do you think he's a fool?
Well I have seen the truth, yes I've seen the light and I've changed my ways
And I'll be prepared when you're lonely and scared at the end of our days
Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say
If they knew you believe in God above?
They should realize before they criticize
that God is the only way to love
Is your mind so small that you have to fall
In with the pack wherever they run
Will you still sneer when death is near
And say they may as well worship the sun?
I think it was true it was people like you that crucified Christ
I think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced
Will you be so sure when your day is near, say you don't believe?
You had the chance but you turned it down, now you can't retrieve
Perhaps you'll think before you say that God is dead and gone
Open your eyes, just realize that he's the one
The only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate
Or will you still jeer at all you hear? Yes! I think it's too late.
(end)
Note: some satanists refer to satan as "god" so they talk about god and say they believe in god, etc, and can do so openly without fear because they are actually referring to satan.
Note #2- I'm not sure if or how much it has changed, but it used to be almost NEVER that a satanist would admit that they were a satanist. It was part of their "code" (for Dexter fans) that they never admitted they were satanists. I know someone who was and when I asked him this, he said it was absolutely correct. Actually, I asked him this many times because I "knew" but he'd never admitted it, so I asked him one night when he was really drunk. LOL
I only bring that part of it up, because so many do all these things mentioned above, but deny it. Is it cover? Or is the stuff they do an act?
Wow! Did "They" tell you that yesterday morning? :o
I think "They" sing about what sells records. Not everybody is trying to carry some message to convert your children to whatever. Some people are Looney toons and sing about it. I think you posted some last week. ;D
I doesn,t matter which side of the fence you're on. Christian Shredding or Satanic Ritualistic Bloodfucking. (I made that up)
So to answer your question, Yes it is real.
You should be very afraid. ;D ;D
I don't know if it's an act or not, as a rule - depends on the person.
I just go by this: music about satan, ok... music for satan, meh, pass.
I'm not worried about "catching" satanism from music though... going to the mall is much more dangerous in that regard.
good luck with this thread. ;)
I wasn't as much asking if you guys are going to "catch" it. (I HOPE NOT!) LOL I'm more interested in if you think, or have information on, it's real or not.
Like I said, Sabbath was WIDELY accused of this, and the song I posted is from "Master Of Reality" which was right in the heyday of both their popularity, and all the satanism claims. In fact, that particular song was cited in one article as something "to throw them off" for the people claiming they were satanists. But the interview I saw with Ozzie where he said that he was not, but didn't deny that other members were, was right after that (couple years maybe. It was prior to him leaving and his solo albums).
the church of satan and all that stuff is plenty real - there are people who affirmatively worship there. whether someone on stage is a member, even clandestinely, I have no idea.
and yeah, I think the church of satan is pretty silly... but that doesn't really matter. ever read Foucault's Pendulum?
http://www.amazon.com/Foucaults-Pendulum-Umberto-Eco/dp/015603297X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1387835464&sr=1-1&keywords=foucault%27s+pendulum
Satanism is just as rediculous as the "other" camp.
So "real" is a very relative thing. ;)
Do bands use it to promote their music? Of course! Do they actually believe in the crap? Probably not.
J, you bring up an interesting aspect... Why so much of it concentrated in certain areas, like Norway?
Sheep, Oh I know the satanists are real and there are real churches etc. I've just always been uncertain about the legitimacy of the rockers and their satanist actions. You know most old school Christians see one little hint and say "they are satanists." I always saw the signs but wondered if they were real. Like I said, Black Sabbath was one of the biggest bands (back then) that you ever heard those claims about, yet the posted song and others indicated otherwise.
Craig, I asked that this not be a religious debate.
Your answer reminds me of something I meant to say earlier though. If you think that it's all "just an act" then do you think they believe in nothing (alk Craig)? If so, do they think they are trying to appeal to people who "believe" or just people who think it's cool t act that way?
Obviously my thoughts are influenced by my curiosity as to why anyone would pretend to worship either side, if they believe in nothing. If I were an atheist, I wouldn't be doing Christian rock. And I also wouldn't be doing satan stuff. One of my reasons for NOT believing much of it, is that I think they believe nothing so they see no harm in the "satanist act." But dude, some of these cats are SCARY. IF they don't worship the devil, they are at least on his Christmas card list!
p.s. Much in the same way I don't understand their fascination with death. If there is not an afterlife, death is "the end" in there minds so why glorify that when you are in your 20s and per what you believe, will cease to exist the second you die. On the other hand, if they think there is an afterlife, then death is a path to what's next so their seeming obsession with it is more understandable.... until you think about where their eternity would be and then it get's confusing again. ;) Again, not talking religion, just the logic of the whole thing.
Death would mean not here in this reality we share any longer.
The acts you have heard of had a schtick that sold, be more scared of racist acts who preach actual violence. Do you think horror films are made by satanists?
Are you trying to figure out why some, mostly young, people are drawn to dark subject matter? I would guess there are many factors depending on the individual and groups they participate in.
DreamTheaterRules — Dec 23, 2013 One of my reasons for NOT believing much of it, is that I think they believe nothing so they see no harm in the "satanist act."
I think that's it, for the most part.
re: your other point, that we will die is true... something that can be believed in even though we haven't died yet. there's the death fixation.
Yeah, I think it's real. Like that Slayer album, South of Heaven. Yeah, hell yeah. They believe in Satan. Also, they are fans of Nazi death camps, and the undead. That's why they sing about them, right? I think it's just as real for most "Satanic"--excuse me, "Slay-tanic" bands, as all the x-tian music is for all those bands that are making that music. It's real all right--you only have to ask their accountants how real it is.
Also, when Michael Jackson was like 6, and sang "I want you back" with the Jackson Five, yeah, that was real too, about his girlfriend who left him, and how he wanted her back. Right?
Also, while we're looking at what's real and not real, pine trees and the winter solstice are intimately connected to Jesus.
DreamTheaterRules — Dec 23, 2013p.s. Much in the same way I don't understand their fascination with death. If there is not an afterlife, death is "the end" in there minds so why glorify that when you are in your 20s and per what you believe, will cease to exist the second you die. On the other hand, if they think there is an afterlife, then death is a path to what's next so their seeming obsession with it is more understandable.... until you think about where their eternity would be and then it get's confusing again. ;) Again, not talking religion, just the logic of the whole thing.
there,
their,
they're.
Your (you're? yore?) assignment for the week.
charger — Dec 23, 2013Yeah, I think it's real. Like that Slayer album, South of Heaven. Yeah, hell yeah. They believe in Satan. Also, they are fans of Nazi death camps, and the undead. That's why they sing about them, right? I think it's just as real for most "Satanic"--excuse me, "Slay-tanic" bands, as all the x-tian music is for all those bands that are making that music. It's real all right--you only have to ask their accountants how real it is.
Also, when Michael Jackson was like 6, and sang "I want you back" with the Jackson Five, yeah, that was real too, about his girlfriend who left him, and how he wanted her back. Right?
Also, while we're looking at what's real and not real, pine trees and the winter solstice are intimately connected to Jesus.
Love it! :)
Don't forget Kev's "Your'll" LOL. Fuck you, Kev!
charger — Dec 23, 2013Yeah, I think it's real. Like that Slayer album, South of Heaven. Yeah, hell yeah. They believe in Satan. Also, they are fans of Nazi death camps, and the undead. That's why they sing about them, right? I think it's just as real for most "Satanic"--excuse me, "Slay-tanic" bands, as all the x-tian music is for all those bands that are making that music. It's real all right--you only have to ask their accountants how real it is.
Also, when Michael Jackson was like 6, and sang "I want you back" with the Jackson Five, yeah, that was real too, about his girlfriend who left him, and how he wanted her back. Right?
Also, while we're looking at what's real and not real, pine trees and the winter solstice are intimately connected to Jesus.
Right on, skippy. And Uncle Ted and the boys in Kiss never got laid either, right?
When lyrical content involves religion (and whether or not you think it is, it IS a religion) and it is a religion of evil, one does tend to wonder if they really mean what they are saying. Comparing that to a child singing a love song is a pretty lame comparison. You can do better. I can check my notes on this, but without looking I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that 6 year old Michael didn't write that song. ;) Maybe you don't care. I do. I'm not spending my money on ANY music, no matter how good, if they are or pretend to be satanists. But that is not even the point of the thread.
I can speak for the other side and say, despite sarcastic replies to the contrary, if you are a Christian music (rock or otherwise) band, there certainly IS an expectation that you are a Christian. I have played in a band, and I have run sound for some of the biggest names in gospel music, and have met all them (that I ran sound for and that came to our church) and gotten to know many. So insults aside, my question is still posed to anyone who wants to share "their" opinion. If the mere mention of anything that may or may not involve religion means we play by the free-for-all rules of the religion threads, I can delete the thread.
THIS IS NOT A RELIGION THREAD! Please do not treat it as one.
DreamTheaterRules — Dec 24, 2013[quote author=charger link=1387830612/0#12 date=1387840089]Yeah, I think it's real. Like that Slayer album, South of Heaven. Yeah, hell yeah. They believe in Satan. Also, they are fans of Nazi death camps, and the undead. That's why they sing about them, right? I think it's just as real for most "Satanic"--excuse me, "Slay-tanic" bands, as all the x-tian music is for all those bands that are making that music. It's real all right--you only have to ask their accountants how real it is.
Also, when Michael Jackson was like 6, and sang "I want you back" with the Jackson Five, yeah, that was real too, about his girlfriend who left him, and how he wanted her back. Right?
Also, while we're looking at what's real and not real, pine trees and the winter solstice are intimately connected to Jesus.
Right on, skippy. And Uncle Ted and the boys in Kiss never got laid either, right?
When lyrical content involves religion (and whether or not you think it is, it IS a religion) and it is a religion of evil, one does tend to wonder if they really mean what they are saying. Comparing that to a child singing a love song is a pretty lame comparison. You can do better. I can check my notes on this, but without looking I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that 6 year old Michael didn't write that song. ;) Maybe you don't care. I do. I'm not spending my money on ANY music, no matter how good, if they are or pretend to be satanists. But that is not even the point of the thread.
I can speak for the other side and say, despite sarcastic replies to the contrary, if you are a Christian music (rock or otherwise) band, there certainly IS an expectation that you are a Christian. I have played in a band, and I have run sound for some of the biggest names in gospel music, and have met all them (that I ran sound for and that came to our church) and gotten to know many. So insults aside, my question is still posed to anyone who wants to share "their" opinion. If the mere mention of anything that may or may not involve religion means we play by the free-for-all rules of the religion threads, I can delete the thread.
THIS IS NOT A RELIGION THREAD! Please do not treat it as one.
Except that everyone else knows that it is Howie.
Howie. My Honest opinion. The origin of Satan is the Bible. So does it really matter what my opinion is? Most Christians accept the Bible as the word of God. So, for you he is Real. All of Satan's appearances are in Religious based Literature. Religion!!!!
I'm pretty sure he will not come out of my speakers and get me. No matter what nonsense I queue up on the Youtube.
If someone decides to go and do something bad (evil). They're bad. They have faulty thinking or morals. I don't think the faulty influence is from any kind of music. It's from the world and the people in it. Not some Demon that your God has trapped somewhere.
I don't think Your God will allow him to be conjured up? Will He? The Almighty. Less than. Hmmm.
Uh oh! There he is!
;D ;D
I think the religious tagged these bands style of music as satanic. the bands got press on it, saw they were getting extra attention/sales, and rode the train.
I don't understand how you start a religious thread, and threaten to delete the thread if you get a response based on religion, that you don't like. ;D ;D Good luck with that one. ;)
I will say this. To a degree, I think religion is evil.
I vote this thread gets moved to the religion section. ;D
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe on the seventh day, when God was relaxing, he threw on some tunes. Then he wondered what would happen if he spun the 33 RPM vinyl backwards. Shazam! Satan materialized right out of the backward spinning groove.
I agree with Hookbender. Some religious record burning took place and Satan grew immensely in retaliation.
DreamTheaterRules — Dec 23, 2013My question is, how do you feel about all the devil stuff in music?
Do you believe it's real?
Or is it some image they want to produce and all the satan stuff is part of that?
What about the Pentagram?
Do these bands believe that?
Is it part of the image and they don't believe it?
Does it bother you?
For those of us who have kids, if you just "like the music and don't pay any attention to the lyrics" does it bother you some of the things your kids could see or hear if they see it?
first, you obviously learned how to type in the old days... two spaces after punctuation! heh!
anyway, thinking about this some more:
I feel the same way about devil stuff in music as I do about parricide and incest in greek tragedy. or about sauron and mordor while reading tolkein. or about the guy who dresses up like santa claus in the department store. it's part of the story.
I don't worry about whether sophocles really believed oedipus existed... or if the actors in the movie versions believed mordor was a real place... or if department store santa really believes in santa claus. they might, for all I know! but, it's entertainment - it's purpose is to move people emotionally or, most often, to sell things.
listening to the music of a band of satanists, to me, is the same thing as watching a movie like nosferatu. I'm not morally influenced as a result of the experience - it's just a show. I'm not so fragile or open that an experience like that can drive my consciousness. I appreciate music for how it sounds - if it can give me an interesting auditory experience, I'll like it. the reason I don't really listen to music
for satan is that it largely sucks... same reason I don't listen to christian metal... it mostly sucks. when the message is larger than the experience and dominates what I'm hearing, it stops being music to me and becomes a bad infomercial for some juvenile understanding of theology - or anti-theology in the case of satanists. gospel, choral, symphonic, gregorian... the message is huge in that music but it's still interesting because it's not out of balance with the experience. when I hear about Christ set to grinding doom riffs or aggressive arpeggiated malmsteenesque shredding... it's like a dog wearing wingtips. absurd. but that wasn't the question... heh.
so no, it doesn't bother me. I don't take cues for my moral philosophy from entertainers. whether or not someone else does... that's their problem!
finally, the most genuinely unsettling, and I suppose therefore satanic, music I've ever heard is instrumental.*
*more accurately, fairly random, spoken lyrics... sometimes singing... but the parts that freak me out are instrumental (scott walker music)
Stravinsky's Rite of Spring scares me more than Slayer or King Diamond. My ultimate barometer for music is whether I like it and it moves me. If there's some good Christian song, I'll like it. I have a bunch of Christian stations in my area now and for the most part the music is the suxxor... Every song sounds enough like another song that's recently been on the radio to make you stop when you're scanning stations, but the lyrics are about Jesus. Okay, but come on, make some fucking original music, please.
The music I really like is rarely retread crap. Mostly, it's original and interesting to me. And I like stuff that's heavy and has a massive groove. If its sucky music, it's sucky music.
heh, I was listening to that (rite of spring) recently... it gets so jarring! great stuff.
phillip glass has been scaring me lately... I start getting creeped out shortly after I had been thinking the music was sublime. it's a weird experience... not sure what's going on with that.
but seriously creeped out, it's scott walker all the way. The Drift... holy crap that's scary.
Clara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5hvHEBLNpI
I'm a big fan of Phillip Glass, but only in small amounts. Too much of his arpeggios and you start to go crazy! LOL. :)
ironsheep — Dec 24, 2013heh, I was listening to that (rite of spring) recently... it gets so jarring! great stuff.
phillip glass has been scaring me lately... I start getting creeped out shortly after I had been thinking the music was sublime. it's a weird experience... not sure what's going on with that.
but seriously creeped out, it's scott walker all the way. The Drift... holy crap that's scary.
Clara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5hvHEBLNpI
Dude, that Clara track is effing creepy!! Woof.
Now to creep you out Sheep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn_T_77JM8g
ha! exactly! that's a little more overt though ;)
yeah, I almost had a seizure around 8 mins in.
ironsheep — Dec 24, 2013heh, I was listening to that (rite of spring) recently... it gets so jarring! great stuff.
phillip glass has been scaring me lately... I start getting creeped out shortly after I had been thinking the music was sublime. it's a weird experience... not sure what's going on with that.
but seriously creeped out, it's scott walker all the way. The Drift... holy crap that's scary.
Clara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5hvHEBLNpI
OMG! People actually listen to that?????????????? And comments on YT calling him a genius????? Holy freakin cow. Disclosure: I didn't hear all the words... but the guys voice was so poor I couldn't stand to turn it up louder. :o :o :o I better stop here...
Edit: one more thing I HAVE TOO throw in. I'm not sure I ever heard any MUSIC in that, at all. :-? :-?
Dearthian: — Dec 26, 2013[quote author=ironsheep link=1387830612/25#25 date=1387916124]heh, I was listening to that (rite of spring) recently... it gets so jarring! great stuff.
phillip glass has been scaring me lately... I start getting creeped out shortly after I had been thinking the music was sublime. it's a weird experience... not sure what's going on with that.
but seriously creeped out, it's scott walker all the way. The Drift... holy crap that's scary.
Clara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5hvHEBLNpI
Dude, that Clara track is effing creepy!! Woof.
Now to creep you out Sheep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn_T_77JM8g
Ok, now that one I can see two legitimate uses for. 1) practice/warmup routine for classical musician. 2) in conjunction with waterboarding to torture captured terrorists!
I think he's a genius - he makes music that actually sounds like it's dangerous to listen to! but yeah, not for everyone...
with that as context, how evil are bunch of maroons playing hard rock about the devil? ;)
Dearthian: — Dec 26, 2013
Now to creep you out Sheep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn_T_77JM8g
And that's just the second to last song on the third CD! :D
Try and find the movie Koyaanisqatsi sometime. There's definitely a story behind the musical chaos (and it's the most popular of the Quatsi trilogy). :)
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the backmasking phenomena yet. Especially the Stairway to Heaven bit. The short time in which that song was written, how much the words really don't make a lot of sense, and how a couple of parts sound backwards. That creeps me out way more than guys shouting for Satan to burn their neighbors and grandchildren and goats and shit.
Johnny,
Do you believe there was actual back masking? In the Zeppelin albums for example.