94 posts
My 2 cents:
Where vinyl can shine is that it will probably have a greater dynamic range, coming from a different master. I think the needle would bounce out of the grooves otherwise.
Dream Theater's newest release is available on HDtracks and it is a different master; it has a DR (dynamic range) of around 12, as opposed to the CD which is around 6-8. The difference is stunning, there is more punch, clarity, and separation. I can only hope more artists take advantage of this and actually offer a separately mastered version.
Maybe this is the type of thing Howie is noticing between vinyl and CD. The thing is that its not really the medium that is the culprit, it's the mastering for the medium. The dumb thing is, a 16bit 44.1K CD is perfectly capable of a bigger dynamic range. But the record companies have their own ideas on this that IMO suck.
RectoZilla — Sep 25, 2013My 2 cents:
Where vinyl can shine is that it will probably have a greater dynamic range, coming from a different master. I think the needle would bounce out of the grooves otherwise.
Dream Theater's newest release is available on HDtracks and it is a different master; it has a DR (dynamic range) of around 12, as opposed to the CD which is around 6-8. The difference is stunning, there is more punch, clarity, and separation. I can only hope more artists take advantage of this and actually offer a separately mastered version.
Maybe this is the type of thing Howie is noticing between vinyl and CD. The thing is that its not really the medium that is the culprit, it's the mastering for the medium. The dumb thing is, a 16bit 44.1K CD is perfectly capable of a bigger dynamic range. But the record companies have their own ideas on this that IMO suck.
Vinyl actually has far less "available" dynamic range. A CD can cleanly reproduce around 80dB of dynamics. A well-recorded symphonic piece on CD can cover a very wide range of dynamics. I'm not sure what the theoretical dynamic range of an LP is, but it's nowhere near that. An album mastered for an LP *could* definitely be less compressed (although let's not forget by far the largest market segment in vinyl is EDM--electronic dance music--which is compressed to hell).
But that's got nothing to do with CD vs LP, that's just the loudness wars, everyone wants their CD to be a flatline and thus louder than the next CD. To me, even 12dB dynamic range is low--that's about the max I ever push a master to.
I meant much the same charger - the dynamic range is there to be used on CDs but isn't - my point was that CDs get brickwalled and LPs don't.
I will try this again. :) Saying something has more realism means it sounds more real. I already cited instances (frequency response, etc.) where digital CAN be more accurate. But that does not mean that overall it sounds more real. CD's are not recorded at the same resolution my $200 portable recorder can record at! So even with flat frequency response, it shouldn't be hard to fathom that an album can sound better. There are way higher resolution digital formats than what CDs are made at.
A well cared for album on a good turntable/cartrige/stylus system will last MANY MANY plays before there is sonic degradation. ON the average record player, dang straight they start to slowly deteriorate from first play. But again, that was NEVER what this discussion was about. (Ironically, I have older CDs with no scratches or anything that somehow became unplayable on and player I have...) It's also not about ticks and pops. It's about sonic realism. I have already stated that OVER 10 YEARS AGO the big CD makers themselves noted that a higher resolution standard was needed! When it comes, (it' s WAY overdue) it may approach the realism of analog, with the advantages of digital. I've NEVER said it can't be as good. I said it's not there yet.
Charger, I'm aware that there are great CD playback systems out there. They, like high end record playback systems, are expensive. And again, those makers have been for years clamoring for a higher resolution standard in the digital disc format.
This can go on forever and get nowhere. I might look back to what I saw a couple years ago, where one of the high end manufacturers who made both turntables and CD players, themselves said that using the best of the best in digital, that their CD player still didn't sound as good as their record player and that they continued to use the record player as the standard that they continued to try to improve the CD player to get too sonically.
I have a good local shop that I've become friends with so even though I don't buy much anymore I still go there to visit and listen. I was there around Christmas. I listened to both through an identical system with both front ends, same source material, etc. I will never ever say that you all need to run out and buy a record player. Digital is worlds more convenient, more versatile, etc. But it still takes the highest of the high end CD players $5-10K!) to get close to a $1500 table/arm/stylus. I have heard it with my own ears and at that point it is my opinion. Let's just leave it at that! :)
I can't. ;D
I've looked on the web and can't give you evidence to support your claim.
And I would say that the CD player doesn't need to get over $100 bucks to give you everything the human ear is capable of hearing. IMO the amp is way more important than the CD player. And the monitors your listening to the playback on are second, or first in this case.
And when you listened to the record player, what were the speakers designed to do? Sound good to the public? Like Bose? Or were they designed to give you an accurate representation of the music the way it was recorded?
If you want accurate sound, the speakers need to be designed to give you an accurate sound. If you want something that simply sounds good, impresses, go to best buy or whatever, and get what you like.
Here's a little example that will make you chuckle, because it involves headphones. ;D
I have a pair of akg240s headphones that Charger recommended years ago. I paid $99 for them. I have a $250 headphone amp that's pretty good, not close to the best though. I also have a set of akg701 headphones that cost me about $270. Which do you think are more accurate? Which do you think sounds better?
I can only say that they are different and after I smoke a tad, the one's I have on sound the best at the time. And, are more accurate at the time. ;D ;D but I can say that if I were to stick with the 240s as Charger suggested, I would have one of the best headphones on the market, IMO. 3 times more money on headphones don't really mean better. Not necessarily. It means different.
I don't think this is a argument that can be won or proved. Your version of what sounds accurate May be totally different than mine, Chargers, or whoever else you want to name. What you think sounds the best to you, really, is all that matters. But if you want a accurate representation of the music, you need equipment that is designed to give an accurate sound. And even this will vary depending on the speakers the music is played through.
Damn near every speaker will be different and maybe similar, in some ways. But they won't sound exactly the same.
Proof?? Go to studios and count how many different brands of monitors you see if each studio. Don't you think that if something sounded the best, or was considered the most accurate, they would be in every studio or home?
Sound, accurate or what sounds the best, is a subjective subject. How much you spend on the equipment really doesn't matter after a point. And, the point that is, is subjective as well.
You can convince yourself that a record player sounds better just because you think it's cool. It is cool, but I'm not sure you could convince anyone else that it sounds better. And, if it has ticks and pops in the playback, that isn't accurate at all. Unless maybe one of the guitar players farts during the recording and maybe has Tourette's syndrome. ;D
DreamTheaterRules — Sep 25, 2013I will try this again. :) Saying something has more realism means it sounds more real. I already cited instances (frequency response, etc.) where digital CAN be more accurate. But that does not mean that overall it sounds more real. CD's are not recorded at the same resolution my $200 portable recorder can record at! So even with flat frequency response, it shouldn't be hard to fathom that an album can sound better. There are way higher resolution digital formats than what CDs are made at.
A well cared for album on a good turntable/cartrige/stylus system will last MANY MANY plays before there is sonic degradation. ON the average record player, dang straight they start to slowly deteriorate from first play. But again, that was NEVER what this discussion was about. (Ironically, I have older CDs with no scratches or anything that somehow became unplayable on and player I have...) It's also not about ticks and pops. It's about sonic realism. I have already stated that OVER 10 YEARS AGO the big CD makers themselves noted that a higher resolution standard was needed! When it comes, (it' s WAY overdue) it may approach the realism of analog, with the advantages of digital. I've NEVER said it can't be as good. I said it's not there yet.
Charger, I'm aware that there are great CD playback systems out there. They, like high end record playback systems, are expensive. And again, those makers have been for years clamoring for a higher resolution standard in the digital disc format.
This can go on forever and get nowhere. I might look back to what I saw a couple years ago, where one of the high end manufacturers who made both turntables and CD players, themselves said that using the best of the best in digital, that their CD player still didn't sound as good as their record player and that they continued to use the record player as the standard that they continued to try to improve the CD player to get too sonically.
I have a good local shop that I've become friends with so even though I don't buy much anymore I still go there to visit and listen. I was there around Christmas. I listened to both through an identical system with both front ends, same source material, etc. I will never ever say that you all need to run out and buy a record player. Digital is worlds more convenient, more versatile, etc. But it still takes the highest of the high end CD players $5-10K!) to get close to a $1500 table/arm/stylus. I have heard it with my own ears and at that point it is my opinion. Let's just leave it at that! :)
Yeah, you can play records on your unobtainium turntable with the unicorn hair needle and the gyroscopically balanced platter and, oh why the fuck not, let's use Monster cable that is 99.99999 percent oxygen free and nitrogen-impregnated, and wow, my god, I can hear how the magnetic fields in Moscow just barely push the phase of YoYo Ma's electrons to the left.
Or we can live in the real world, where no one listens to those unobtainium systems that get reviewed in Audio Corksniffer Monthly, except for three magazine reviewers and nine dudes who have so much fucking money they need to constantly reaffirm their status by buying pieces of gear that should only be unpacked in rooms that are plated with 18k gold, yet these same people would swear to you
they can't pay a cent more in taxes, because we wouldn't want to kill jobs in the unobtainium factory... but I digress, because, let's face it, if I'm talking audiophile stuff, I can afford to digress. A lot.
Meanwhile, the proles can never AFFORD to hear music the way you are proclaiming it has to be heard, to hear how fucking great it is. The poor rabble are stuck with 99 cent MP3s that they play on $100 players through $3 earbuds, and, lo and behold, they sound fucking great, and the same, perfect, every time, and the proles just don't know enough to know they actually sound like shit.
Blah blah blah.
You don't have to understand the laws of physics. You don't have to follow the discussions by mastering engineers who actually make this shit. Because
reality is in the eye of the beholder.
I don't mean to rant, but to me, this is like unicorns, fairy dusts, religion, and monster cable, all wrapped up into one. Do LPs look rad and have lots of cool room for artwork? Yeah. Do they sound better than CDs, or more real? No, not at any level I've ever been able to afford. If you are wealthy, and can afford to have expensive equipment, the finest vinyl, and pastures of virgin unicorns, YMMV.
charger — Sep 25, 2013[quote author=DreamTheaterRules link=1378437459/50#53 date=1380145457]I will try this again. :) Saying something has more realism means it sounds more real. I already cited instances (frequency response, etc.) where digital CAN be more accurate. But that does not mean that overall it sounds more real. CD's are not recorded at the same resolution my $200 portable recorder can record at! So even with flat frequency response, it shouldn't be hard to fathom that an album can sound better. There are way higher resolution digital formats than what CDs are made at.
A well cared for album on a good turntable/cartrige/stylus system will last MANY MANY plays before there is sonic degradation. ON the average record player, dang straight they start to slowly deteriorate from first play. But again, that was NEVER what this discussion was about. (Ironically, I have older CDs with no scratches or anything that somehow became unplayable on and player I have...) It's also not about ticks and pops. It's about sonic realism. I have already stated that OVER 10 YEARS AGO the big CD makers themselves noted that a higher resolution standard was needed! When it comes, (it' s WAY overdue) it may approach the realism of analog, with the advantages of digital. I've NEVER said it can't be as good. I said it's not there yet.
Charger, I'm aware that there are great CD playback systems out there. They, like high end record playback systems, are expensive. And again, those makers have been for years clamoring for a higher resolution standard in the digital disc format.
This can go on forever and get nowhere. I might look back to what I saw a couple years ago, where one of the high end manufacturers who made both turntables and CD players, themselves said that using the best of the best in digital, that their CD player still didn't sound as good as their record player and that they continued to use the record player as the standard that they continued to try to improve the CD player to get too sonically.
I have a good local shop that I've become friends with so even though I don't buy much anymore I still go there to visit and listen. I was there around Christmas. I listened to both through an identical system with both front ends, same source material, etc. I will never ever say that you all need to run out and buy a record player. Digital is worlds more convenient, more versatile, etc. But it still takes the highest of the high end CD players $5-10K!) to get close to a $1500 table/arm/stylus. I have heard it with my own ears and at that point it is my opinion. Let's just leave it at that! :)
Yeah, you can play records on your unobtainium turntable with the unicorn hair needle and the gyroscopically balanced platter and, oh why the fuck not, let's use Monster cable that is 99.99999 percent oxygen free and nitrogen-impregnated, and wow, my god, I can hear how the magnetic fields in Moscow just barely push the phase of YoYo Ma's electrons to the left.
Or we can live in the real world, where no one listens to those unobtainium systems that get reviewed in Audio Corksniffer Monthly, except for three magazine reviewers and nine dudes who have so much fucking money they need to constantly reaffirm their status by buying pieces of gear that should only be unpacked in rooms that are plated with 18k gold, yet these same people would swear to you
they can't pay a cent more in taxes, because we wouldn't want to kill jobs in the unobtainium factory... but I digress, because, let's face it, if I'm talking audiophile stuff, I can afford to digress. A lot.
Meanwhile, the proles can never AFFORD to hear music the way you are proclaiming it has to be heard, to hear how fucking great it is. The poor rabble are stuck with 99 cent MP3s that they play on $100 players through $3 earbuds, and, lo and behold, they sound fucking great, and the same, perfect, every time, and the proles just don't know enough to know they actually sound like shit.
Blah blah blah.
You don't have to understand the laws of physics. You don't have to follow the discussions by mastering engineers who actually make this shit. Because
reality is in the eye of the beholder.
I don't mean to rant, but to me, this is like unicorns, fairy dusts, religion, and monster cable, all wrapped up into one. Do LPs look rad and have lots of cool room for artwork? Yeah. Do they sound better than CDs, or more real? No, not at any level I've ever been able to afford. If you are wealthy, and can afford to have expensive equipment, the finest vinyl, and pastures of virgin unicorns, YMMV.
Love it! ;D
(Remember, he has imaginary friends too. ;) )
One correction. In this case, reality is in the "ear" of the beholder.
In this case, reality seems to be defined by DTR's ears. ;D ;D
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/29-vinyl-records-and-digital-audio/
http://www.npr.org/2012/02/10/146697658/why-vinyl-sounds-better-than-cd-or-not
Kinda interesting
(Best Bevis and Butthead impression)
" Uh, huh huh... Huh huh. "
Is this the 2004 watering Hole? do we just insult whomever we don't agree with?
A few simple thoughts, then I will let this go.
1) i had both a POD 2.0 and a Flextone and thought it was the coolest thing in the world. Then i realized that they really just didn't "SOUND" that great. Not bad. WAY more convenient than multiple amps. Speakers, pedals etc. But i never for one second thought i was hearing a good real amp in my room.
2) when they finally settle on the next "standard" and the next gen digital disc vastly surpass CDs, just remember one thing. I TOLD YOU SO! ;)
3) i listen to MP3s every single day. I listen to CDs every single day. I listen to vinyl maybe twice a month. All the completely random off topic comments aside, I am all about enjoying music in whatever format is best for any set of circumstances. I fully appreciate the different formats for what they offer. I have never heard Dream Theater on vinyl! But i have some Jimi Hendrix and Pink Floyd on vinyl that will make you piss your pants. Many others to. And i would fully appreciate that when it happened. ;D
I heard one side of a Jimi Hendrix vinyl record, in the room where it was remastered for vinyl and digital, by George Marino, at Sterling Sound in New York City about 15 years ago. It sounded great. But so did the master... coming off a digital Sonic Solutions system... did I say digital? Yeah... Great stuff. George Marino had no magic pixie dust, or unicorn hair in his room. But he did have some custom unobtainium compressors, EQs, and speakers. They were cool. The CD sounded equally great through that system, and ended up being much more practical for me to own.
Next up: Why Budweiser in a can tastes better than micro brew beer from a tap! :D
I didn't intend to insult you at all, nor do I think I did (probably not talking to me) but still... if you expect marquess of queensberry on the internet, you're going to be disappointed. a lot.
Sheep, no, wasn't referring to you. And I don't know what that is, so I'll gogle it next chance I get. too busy now.
Let's just treat this as a UFO siting. I saw it multiple times. I know what I saw, I swear on my life to what I saw. And you (no individual implied) didn't see it. So you can either choose to believe me or think I'm nuts. Since several have decided already (weis.... ERRRRR) But I'm ok with either, because I know what I saw. Heck, I even offered a way to check it out for yourself and make your own decision. But if you haven't even tried to see if it's true... :)
And for the record, i didn't start the thread with "Analog is better!" The question was asked about vinyl by someone else, and I gave my thoughts.
it's a cliche for "fighting with rules".
LOL! Eating lunch and just googled it. And, don't I know it brother! LOL
Anyway, I have a modestly priced turntable that was very well reviewed years ago (HK T60) and a couple nice cartridges (Goldring was $150ish, Adcom $200ish) that can sound stunning on good material. From there you go up to a grand or so for a "better" table. $1500 or so starts to get you in the extremely good stuff. Then it gets crazy after that. I realize a 30 gig Creative Zen MP3 player is less expensive. Have one of those too. :) For affordable but really good CD player, look into Adcom. Great prices on used Adcom CD players that are better than most anything you'd normally hear. (Their amps and pre-amps are really good too. The gateway to the high end, but not all that expensive).
to be honest, I don't want to hear how good it can be. it's only going to cost me money (lol) ;D
90% of all music will be consumed on miniature devices in the near future. Vinyl is big, beautiful, and impractical, kind of like a diplodocus.
ironsheep — Sep 26, 2013to be honest, I don't want to hear how good it can be. it's only going to cost me money (lol) ;D
Indeed. But if you stay in the "reasonable" range, it is SO worth it! :)
I seriously believe this should be filed under religion.
Charger, I'm googling for a high end store in your area. I'm going to schedule you an appointment to go hear god. ;D
What, George Marino's system at Sterling Sound wasn't good enough?
Don't know what he has. Did it have the fairy dust? :)
charger — Sep 26, 2013I seriously believe this should be filed under religion.
Hence my earlier comment.
Poor Howie. :)
DreamTheaterRules — Sep 26, 2013(Best Bevis and Butthead impression)
" Uh, huh huh... Huh huh. "
Is this the 2004 watering Hole? do we just insult whomever we don't agree with?
A few simple thoughts, then I will let this go.
1) i had both a POD 2.0 and a Flextone and thought it was the coolest thing in the world. Then i realized that they really just didn't "SOUND" that great. Not bad. WAY more convenient than multiple amps. Speakers, pedals etc. But i never for one second thought i was hearing a good real amp in my room.
2) when they finally settle on the next "standard" and the next gen digital disc vastly surpass CDs, just remember one thing. I TOLD YOU SO! ;)
3) i listen to MP3s every single day. I listen to CDs every single day. I listen to vinyl maybe twice a month. All the completely random off topic comments aside, I am all about enjoying music in whatever format is best for any set of circumstances. I fully appreciate the different formats for what they offer. I have never heard Dream Theater on vinyl! But i have some Jimi Hendrix and Pink Floyd on vinyl that will make you piss your pants. Many others to. And i would fully appreciate that when it happened. ;D
Was it me? I didn't think I insulted you. I just gave my opinion and few sites that talk about analog vs digital. Records and stuff.
In response too....
#1- Cool.
#2- Agree with you there. Technology will surly get better.
#3- Don't know what the off topics were your referring too. I wouldn't want to piss my pants. ;D ;D However, I have had some headphones that gave me hard on. ;D ;D
Speaking of hard on's, what the hell is Miley Cyrus fucking trip? that chick has as much talent as anyone in music. IMO. Why the crazy ass shit? She doesn't need that. Damn. Oh, sorry. ;D
DreamTheaterRules — Sep 12, 2013OMG! you guys.... I refused to get into a debate about this. I'll leave it at this. I could bring any one of you into my home right now and say bring any MP3 player you have, bring the best CD player you have, and nothing you bring will even sound remotely close to the realism of my dropping my Sheffield half speed master recording of Dark Side Of the Moon" or the Sheffield James Newton Howard and Friends album, on my turntable and playing it for you. And my turntable/arm/cartridge/stylus is very good, but nowhere near the "best."
But you did say this, right? And if your arguing this, your surely arguing that Analog sounds better than digital, right? You do know that your listening to an Analog signal? Hold on........
Are you saying this, basically? Or entirely?
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm
By the way, the fact that you said you weren't getting into a debate about this displays your lack of control over your emotions which can, if you let them, drown out all logic and reason. First your religious, now your telling us you make decisions based on emotions. :o
;D ;D
Or, you could claim that article and be the kind that believes something and then goes out and tries to prove it.
Your in a no win situation, my bro. ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, though, DTR, I wish I could hear your set up. I've never heard a record player impress me. What amp are you using to drive your speakers? What kind of speakers do you have? Just curious. I love sound. I want to check this out at guitar center or something. Give us, or me, your set up if you would. Just interested, thats all. If you say you pick up the needle and speaker at the same time and put it on the record, I'm gonna "shit" my pants. ;D ;D ;D
DreamTheaterRules — Sep 26, 2013Don't know what he has. Did it have the fairy dust? :)
I don't know what he had either, because it was all pretty much one-off unobtainium. But I can tell you I heard one side of a master LP of South Saturn Delta off of vinyl, and off the Sonic Solutions system, in the room and on the system on which it was mastered...
He's dead now...
DTR
I have these items and think they are about, above average.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=937758&is=REG&Q=&A=details
http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/headroom-micro-amp.php
For the volume knob and, of course, my headphones.
Into these...
http://www.guitarcenter.com/KRK-Rokit-Powered-5-Generation-2-Powered-Studio-Monitor--Each--104908710-i1403132.gc
Keep in mind, those monitors are cheap. And they are in a small room with carpet, on my office desk about 30% of the time, and in my living room the other 70%. But my floors in the living room are hardwood, and they are excellent in that large of a room. I have beringer monitors as well that are bigger, more powerful.... but are for parties or loud music time. the amps are shit. Very noisy and the clarity suffers until after a six pack, not Bud. Then they sound remarkable for the price.
Just to be fair in what I ask of you.
Hook,
I have a SOTA Star Saphire, Goldring and Adcom cartridges. Musical Concepts modified Hafler 110 pre-amp, Musical concepts modified Hafler amp and a modified Adcom amp. Thiel CS 2 speakers, MCM near field speakers, etc....
Mine is made from the unobtainium manganate crystals, mined by mystics in the magnesium salt mines on Jupiter.
I'll do my best at listening to some kind of vinyl set up soon. I am interested, but very skeptical. However it sounds, I'd never invest that much cash in a system of that type. Way to cumbersome.
Now, all that said, during the day..... when I was very young, I did have a killer turntable that utilized a pink unicorns horn for the needle and and everytime it farted it would change from analog to digital. Kinda the best of both worlds if you ask me. Simply magic.
charger — Oct 01, 2013Mine is made from the unobtainium manganate crystals, mined by mystics in the magnesium salt mines on Jupiter.
I don't know if this hurts or helps either of our stances on this subject, but hear it goes.
When I was young, I was into car audio big time. I kept one cd with me, or in my car or truck at all times. MJ Thriller. Why? Because his later stuff was recorded so well. That was my reference cd, so to speak. I still use it today to judge sound systems of any sort. No, not because I like the music, it's the quality of recording. Got a lot of everything in that cd. Even some Slash.
I put on Motley Crew tonight while drinking beer, cd...... sounds like shit through monitors because of the shitty recording quality.
MJ on monitors, sounds the best, imo, a monitor can sound.
Just a thought.
Vinyl reveals more information, so MJ sounds gay on record albums! :D
Hmmmm, come to think of it, you sound quite gay on the Bertcave. ;D
Hookbender — Oct 25, 2013Hmmmm, come to think of it, you sound quite gay on the Bertcave. ;D
He just can't seem to get away from that, can he? ;) :D
clearly the bert cave is digital and you ears are also full of sh$#! ;D
That's it. Your mean. I'm telling God on you. On vinyl so he will get all the details loud and clear. :D
You didn't need to specify that as there is no digital in heaven anyway. ;)
DreamTheaterRules — Oct 27, 2013You didn't need to specify that as there is no digital in heaven anyway. ;)
*Pfft.* Religion is ALL digital! ;)
DreamTheaterRules — Oct 27, 2013You didn't need to specify that as there is no digital in heaven anyway. ;)
God speaks in vinyl clarity.