#1 · Mar 04, 2013 04:53 UTC
Yes I've posted this one before. But we have re-mixed it, and here is the whole song. Would dig some feedback.
#2 · Mar 04, 2013 14:57 UTC
I can't explain, in words, what I think this should sound like... so here's my sonic opinion! hope you don't mind me processing the track - but it's much easier this way.
I thought the track sounded muffled and dark somehow and lacked clarity.
so what I did was this: I used lee greenwood's proud to be an american as a template in logic's match eq plugin... and applied that to the track. now, don't get me wrong, this has nothing to do with lee greenwood's song... other than that it is vocal heavy with orchestral elements. could have used a bo bice tune but the outcome would be similar. I just wanted a quick and easy way to get the eq profile I had in mind. also, some of the parts now sound sort of weird due to the eq'ing, I know... but that's ok, I'm not trying to demonstrate a mastered tune or anything - just use an eq to "explain" what I'm thinking about the track without just saying "dark, lacks clarity" -- this way you can hear where I'm coming from, so to speak.
btw, great song! rather enjoyed listening to it while doing this :)
http://www.ironsheep.com/mp3/ironsheep/Media/gweqangel.mp3
anyway, the eq looked like this:
I thought the track sounded muffled and dark somehow and lacked clarity.
so what I did was this: I used lee greenwood's proud to be an american as a template in logic's match eq plugin... and applied that to the track. now, don't get me wrong, this has nothing to do with lee greenwood's song... other than that it is vocal heavy with orchestral elements. could have used a bo bice tune but the outcome would be similar. I just wanted a quick and easy way to get the eq profile I had in mind. also, some of the parts now sound sort of weird due to the eq'ing, I know... but that's ok, I'm not trying to demonstrate a mastered tune or anything - just use an eq to "explain" what I'm thinking about the track without just saying "dark, lacks clarity" -- this way you can hear where I'm coming from, so to speak.
btw, great song! rather enjoyed listening to it while doing this :)
http://www.ironsheep.com/mp3/ironsheep/Media/gweqangel.mp3
anyway, the eq looked like this:
#3 · Mar 04, 2013 18:56 UTC
Yep. What I've said before still applies--if you look at the curve ironsheep applied, it's basically the changes I stated plus some overall eq. You've got to get in to the source and balance out what isn't in the mix right now, one track at a time, carving space for all the elements to fit together, and then gluing them in the end. I think I covered the elements in my previous post.
One thing to point out is that this is not always a good democratic process. Get the two people in the band who know their shit to do the mix, then play it for everyone else, and take their feedback to the next mix session. You get the whole band in a room mixing and it's a fucking nightmare. Everyone knows when it sounds great, but they don't know how to get it there, and during a mix everyone generally wants "more me" which isn't going to do it. Also some of the things we do to make things sound good are counterintuitive to the instrumentalist... I remember the first time I saw someone cutting the low end out of my guitar I wanted to punch him in the face...
Or get someone else to mix it...
One thing to point out is that this is not always a good democratic process. Get the two people in the band who know their shit to do the mix, then play it for everyone else, and take their feedback to the next mix session. You get the whole band in a room mixing and it's a fucking nightmare. Everyone knows when it sounds great, but they don't know how to get it there, and during a mix everyone generally wants "more me" which isn't going to do it. Also some of the things we do to make things sound good are counterintuitive to the instrumentalist... I remember the first time I saw someone cutting the low end out of my guitar I wanted to punch him in the face...
Or get someone else to mix it...
#4 · Mar 04, 2013 19:00 UTC
The main thing I notice in this is a very strange acoustic space--it sounds like the singer is totally divorced from the instruments. He's floating in his own reverb world. The mix overall has an almost elevator 70's quality to it, which I'm not thinking is what you are going for. The instruments are not on the whole supportive. The strings are not subtle--maybe they're not supposed to be? Everything in this mix needs to be more aggressive--especially the drums. It starts there. It sounds like the drummer is lazy--not because of the way he plays necessarily so much as his mix... flat, without punch.
#5 · Mar 08, 2013 05:55 UTC
Excellent. You guys gave me the ammo I need to kind of 'take this by the horns', if you will. I understood Charger on the previous posts, but Sheep's comparison here helps me to show the point in the monitors that we are working with. I wanted to send these to Charger, but was outgunned 3 to 1 to spend more money (even though it wasn't that much).
So, what I'm hearing (to fix it) is....we need to go back and START with re-mixing the drums. Without graphs and curves (pretend you are writing a book called 'Idiot's Guide to Mixing Drums'), can you tell me in simple terms what the drums need (More highs, more lows, louder kick or Toms or hats, etc). I know we are working with a decent-at-best recording of the drums. But I know Charger would send me back a file that would sound ten times better. Tell me how to pull the blanket off of the drums.
Brad has been mixing this on his own (with our input from afar via Dropbox and emails). He somehow finds the strangest times of day to do this (middle of a workday, or 2 am on a Saturday night). But I'm going to nail him down maybe next weekend so I can come in with all of you guys' thoughts (and Sheep's side by side).
With Charger's earlier thoughts, I think I can EQ and blend the instruments together better. And yes, the strings are to be subtle, so I can back them off more. But the 'Floating' vocal Charger mentioned has me. I haven't a clue how to fix that. Thoughts?
And BTW, thank you guys for listening and sharing your input. If I can get in and fix this one song (which has more tracks than any of the other songs recorded for the CD), I think I can plow through the others and hopefully make them sound decent. Once Brad hears what I can do with this song (with all of your help), he will be full on board to let me go through the rest of the songs....during more normal mixing hours....
So, what I'm hearing (to fix it) is....we need to go back and START with re-mixing the drums. Without graphs and curves (pretend you are writing a book called 'Idiot's Guide to Mixing Drums'), can you tell me in simple terms what the drums need (More highs, more lows, louder kick or Toms or hats, etc). I know we are working with a decent-at-best recording of the drums. But I know Charger would send me back a file that would sound ten times better. Tell me how to pull the blanket off of the drums.
Brad has been mixing this on his own (with our input from afar via Dropbox and emails). He somehow finds the strangest times of day to do this (middle of a workday, or 2 am on a Saturday night). But I'm going to nail him down maybe next weekend so I can come in with all of you guys' thoughts (and Sheep's side by side).
With Charger's earlier thoughts, I think I can EQ and blend the instruments together better. And yes, the strings are to be subtle, so I can back them off more. But the 'Floating' vocal Charger mentioned has me. I haven't a clue how to fix that. Thoughts?
And BTW, thank you guys for listening and sharing your input. If I can get in and fix this one song (which has more tracks than any of the other songs recorded for the CD), I think I can plow through the others and hopefully make them sound decent. Once Brad hears what I can do with this song (with all of your help), he will be full on board to let me go through the rest of the songs....during more normal mixing hours....
#6 · Mar 08, 2013 23:59 UTC
This is a copy and paste from my previous post...
The reason the vocals are floating is because they've been both eq'd out of the mix, and they're in their own sort of reverb space. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something like a harmonic exciter in this mix somewhere too. The mix has got to be up front and punchy, everything's got to be forward. The vocals have to be the main instrument, supported by everything else. At the same time it should sound like the singer is in the same room, same acoustic space as everyone else.
The entire mix (or all of the elements in the mix that have low content) needs to be low-cut. 80hz down.
Drums... aren't supposed to sound like they were recorded in a garage are they? So
Compress that snare (medium or slow attack + slow release) and drop the bottom end on it. Make it pop at 4k. mix in some bottom head if you have it.
The kick should be tighter and punchier. Again, compression, balancing the attack and release times to emphasize the snap while cutting the boom. Usually medium to slow attack, slow release. Add high end if cutting lows doesn't work. Kicks often snap at 2k.
Overheads, low cut them, make them more stereo if you can, and compress the shit out of them. If you don't want it to sound huge and pumping, do this in parallel (aka "New York drum compression).
Guitars probably sound good if everything else is mixed better. Bass is a little thin. Again compress that thing.
The reason the vocals are floating is because they've been both eq'd out of the mix, and they're in their own sort of reverb space. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something like a harmonic exciter in this mix somewhere too. The mix has got to be up front and punchy, everything's got to be forward. The vocals have to be the main instrument, supported by everything else. At the same time it should sound like the singer is in the same room, same acoustic space as everyone else.
#7 · Mar 09, 2013 06:38 UTC
Charger, your quote above from your previous post regarding the drums now makes a lot more sense. Yeah...I should have gone back and re-read it (doh!) Thank you!
On the vocals, I understand what you are saying. But I'm trying to figure out how to fix it. You posted:
"The vocals have to be the main instrument, supported by everything else. At the same time it should sound like the singer is in the same room, same acoustic space as everyone else."
I am assuming these are reverb/delay/mix/EQ fixes on the vocal tracks (tell me if I am incorrect). Should I completely 'Dry Out' every track, then come back in and add any effects 'Post', all tracks with the same settings..to give a more cohesive sound?
On the vocals, I understand what you are saying. But I'm trying to figure out how to fix it. You posted:
"The vocals have to be the main instrument, supported by everything else. At the same time it should sound like the singer is in the same room, same acoustic space as everyone else."
I am assuming these are reverb/delay/mix/EQ fixes on the vocal tracks (tell me if I am incorrect). Should I completely 'Dry Out' every track, then come back in and add any effects 'Post', all tracks with the same settings..to give a more cohesive sound?
#8 · Mar 11, 2013 05:39 UTC
Yes. Everything dry is the best way to mix. Think of reverb as a flavor, or a glue, much like master bus compression. It's not a feature unless this is a Cure album from the 90s. Get that vocal sounding good and forward. Then bring the music up around it. The number one mistake beginning mixers make is starting from the drums, getting a killer drum mix, then trying to mix around that. If this was a Neil Peart solo album that would be acceptable. But it's a vocal album. So everything needs to support the vocal. Try not to solo things too much, try to add them to the mix, then if they sound funky or muddy, stick an eq on there, make it a bell curve with a fairly sharp Q, turn the gain high and sweep it around, find where the frequencies are that you don't like, make a note of them, then cut them. Also make a note of frequencies that add to the overall mix, and add a little boost there (although the majority of good eq is about cutting... you'll often find that if you cut out the crappy frequencies, the part starts to sound better in the right places).
Compression is a sort of magic art, there are no hard and fast rules for it, so I speak in generalities. Just remember what you want... do you want forward, snappy drums, lots of pop? Think of how the compressor works... if you want the impact of the hit and not much else, slow the attack of the compressor so it lets the transient punch through, then slow the release, so it sucks down the tail of the hit and keeps it down. If you want to reduce the initial hit, fast attack. If you want to bring up the back of the hit, get your snare bed sizzling, get the boom of your kick in there, fast release. Threshold affects the point at which the compressor kicks in... if you have a high threshold, and you're pulling down 20dB on the snare, chances are you'll lose the hits and just flatten everything, if the drummer is playing at a moderate speed.
Don't be afraid to cut low end. There is too much low end in your mix, and I could tell you that without even listening to it, because that's the number one mistake in mixing. Hell some of my mixes have too much low end in them, just because I don't want to cut it. All that low end builds up and clouds your mix. With digital it's even worse because analog tape really rolled off sharply below 80Hz, now everyone can have all of that range in there, and it builds up into a nice wall of mud.
Just remember the emotional impact of the song. It's not the strings. It's not the guitar solo. It's not the ride cymbal. It's the singer. He's the crown jewel, and whether people sing along to your song and play it for their friends rides on how they judge his performance in your mix. I'd be more than happy to mix a song, and tell you exactly what I do to each track, if you want some more assistance.
Compression is a sort of magic art, there are no hard and fast rules for it, so I speak in generalities. Just remember what you want... do you want forward, snappy drums, lots of pop? Think of how the compressor works... if you want the impact of the hit and not much else, slow the attack of the compressor so it lets the transient punch through, then slow the release, so it sucks down the tail of the hit and keeps it down. If you want to reduce the initial hit, fast attack. If you want to bring up the back of the hit, get your snare bed sizzling, get the boom of your kick in there, fast release. Threshold affects the point at which the compressor kicks in... if you have a high threshold, and you're pulling down 20dB on the snare, chances are you'll lose the hits and just flatten everything, if the drummer is playing at a moderate speed.
Don't be afraid to cut low end. There is too much low end in your mix, and I could tell you that without even listening to it, because that's the number one mistake in mixing. Hell some of my mixes have too much low end in them, just because I don't want to cut it. All that low end builds up and clouds your mix. With digital it's even worse because analog tape really rolled off sharply below 80Hz, now everyone can have all of that range in there, and it builds up into a nice wall of mud.
Just remember the emotional impact of the song. It's not the strings. It's not the guitar solo. It's not the ride cymbal. It's the singer. He's the crown jewel, and whether people sing along to your song and play it for their friends rides on how they judge his performance in your mix. I'd be more than happy to mix a song, and tell you exactly what I do to each track, if you want some more assistance.