17 posts
Marcos recent soundcheck made me think of it.
Real Amps vs Modellers
Many here have and use both.
I think it would be interesting if we did a blind test on some future FNJ - two takes one real one sim.
and let people guess and check their golden ears out.
Each players pair of takes need to be in the same tone area.
But comparing the tones of the same player against themselves on the same track does remove a lot of variables.
work out the details if people are interested.
It is a decent idea. I think a good recordist can make a modeler sound as good as a real amp miked up. In fact I know it can be done because I have done it for years, including recordings of my old PodXT, the Tonelab, and the Digitech GNX2, and I have heard some wonderful modeled tones from the players on this and other forums.
In fact I have been thinking about bringing my amp out to the shed/office where my DAW is, and tweaking the GNX2 to sound similar to my stomps. I think it is a matter of EQ and deleting the compressor and gate from my patches. Since I do not use compression or gating in my live work, I will try to replicate that with my modeler for live use/jamming.
I am pretty sure I can not get the sweetness of tone from my modeler, but I think I can get it close enough for jamming with my friends. Plus it will be a bunch easier to take out than my pedal board.
And while I am at it, I will record my results.
Good idea !
I've done the same blind test at work. Two of my collegue are both bass players and both are playing in rock cover bands.
One preferred the amp version and the other prefered the plugin version.
Both were listening to my mp3's thru an iPod... I listened again to the two versions and, thru the iPod, the amp version was way better than what I listen thru monitors (cabs and AKG headphones).
I don't know...
Ciao !
Marco
I predict, all other factors being equal, ie equal familiarity with both rigs on the part of the guy making the recording, that there will be many wrong guesses and many people surprised at their preference once it is revealed which they had picked. I have had sound guys tell me that my TLSE through a power amp and cab sounds much better than many amps that they have had to mic. Granted, in this application the TLSE is merely a preamp and FX box, it is still a mic'd amp since I am using a real tube power amp and real speakers.
Likewise, i know of many, many real amps that sound like ass; as well as many, many, many guitar players who can't make a really nice rig sound worth a shit.
Especially in a recording environment, it can go either way.
To me, in my very extensive experience over the past few years wrestling with the whole amp vs modeler issue, in the end amps win only by a small margin in terms of tone, and a bit better margin in terms of feel. In 03, when I got back into playing, I was shown the PodXT, and was totally astonished because before then i though I needed a Mesa and a 4x12 to get a tone I liked. Over those years, as has been chronicled at the Hole (R.I.P.) as well as on other sites, I have gone back and forth between modelers and real amps.
Other than the couple new guitars I am looking at, my next gear purchase will be a Vetta. For a gigging musician, you can't beat it in terms of flexibility and ease of setup. The CAt5 cable with phantom power to the FBV is an awesome feature, especially appreciated on a small stage where oneself and ones bandmates are fighting for outlets or dancing funny to avoid tripping over a myriad of cables.
Anyhow, great idea. I would love to participate if it goes down at a time when I am available.
Yep, good idea. In fact, after seeing this thread earlier today I mic'd up the C30.
First attempt, sounded absolutely like shit as I was trying to keep the noise down.
Second attempt, sounded fantastic...but only because I really cranked the fucker up, hence I only recorded a few seconds worth (not saved). So many good things happen within an amp when you crank up the volume and you can then record some great tones, but at low volumes it just doesn't work (not for me anyway). The pod gives me much better results if I can't crank up the volume.
I reckon it needs a few things to work.
A decent number of people signed up to do it, the more the better - i.e the maths means it needs 10 to make it roughly 1/1000 chance to guess the all by luck alone - get 20 and it is 1/1000000.
And a suitable BT that has the space so you can clearly hear the guitar.
keep the clips short - around 30s is good enough - too tiring listening to anything longer.
The BT itself should be longer to give people a chance to get going and play into the thing - but needs to be made up of a repetitive loop(s) that fits within a clip length.
Then just select your 30s clip for the amp/modeller take wherever it sounds best to you.
A straight down the line and musically open drum n bass track 16 bars @ 120bpm (32s) would probably be best and a good compromise on tempo - something you can chose to do clean, blues, rock or even go a little metal on - whatever your preference and your guitar will be the only one in there.
It will make listening easier as everyones take on the track will be musically different - but that's ok as we are only comparing your pair of amp/modeller takes and guessing - it is not being compared with other peoples takes.
Will likely get a wider range of tones that way as well.
Game started in the Record, Edit, Mix section !
Ciao !
Marco
Interesting idea, although this has been done on other forums with varying results.
However, IMHO the real 'test' is the feel, playing dynamics and responsiveness that you get when playing which is virtually impossible to capture on a recording where tone is as much down to the recording skill, software & equipment as it is the amp. All-valve amps are as much about how they feel for the player rather than just the tone the audience hears.
For a better comparison, you need consistency of the whole recording process, and a fair comparison of the models eg comparing a modelled AC30 with a real AC30. This is hard to do, because each model is based on a specific amp - and as we all know, there are huge tonal differences even between different real amps - I've yet to play 2 older AC30's that sound exactly the same! Also, comparing say a Cornford amp to a modelling amp that doesn't model the Cornford is inherrently unfair or a modelled 'standard' JCM800 against a modded real JCM800.
Modelling actually lends itself to easier and more consistent recording. Capturing an all-valve amps tone is harder because of things such as mic placement, type of mic etc. For this reason you can get some great recordings with (dare I say it) Line 6 gear for example, but its live tone punch & projection doesn't necessarily translate as well - often, this can seem digital & with less 'oomph'. As an example, with all its sophistication I don't generally like the live tones of Line 6 gear eg the Flextone & Vetta II simply because it lacks somethiong live. The 'punch' of an all-valve is something that is important live, & that's hard to capture on a recording.
Over the weekend, I was actually A/B'ing my Laney VC30-210 (smashing little class A amp) with my pedalboard, vs my Valvetronix (with an EQ in the FX loop). I put the Laney through my AD212 extn cab to avoid aural confusion with 2x10's vs 2x12" speaker tones which are obviously different. With the V'x patch & EQ set up right, I found it virtually impossible to tell the difference tonally between the two eg the VC30 with the Marshall Guv'ner vs the AD120VTX and JCM900 model. But the Laney had a different 'feel' - not necessarily better or worse, just different.
As modelling gets more sophisticated & develops more & more, it's going to be even tougher to tell the 'real thing' apart from modellers. The forthcoming Black Diamond Valvetronix and the Peavey Vyper amps, due in the stores early 2009, should both represent a jump in technology with more complex algarithms and faster, more accurate processing.
It also might be worth distinguishing between pure DSP modellers (eg Line 6 Vetta II, Pod XT etc) and 'hybrids such as the Valvetronix, Spider Valve & (when its out) the power-tube version of the Vyper.
Rich ;)
It is not about comparing the tones of a modelled amp/amp
This is much simpler - it is simply a "can you reliably tell in the mix between modelled and mic'd takes".
i.e. Is there some digital give away.
The tones themselves could be anywhere between crap and great.
it is not a good tone test - the modelled tone might well be considered the "best" - but golden ears will still be able to tell it is modelled and the crap one was mic'd.
But point taken - it might be possible to pick out the amp recordings out by listening for poor recording quality, maybe not.
We'll find out when we give it a go
Gee, I don't know...
I'm only listening to these on the Internet so EVERY tone is digital! ;) :D
CraigBert — Aug 26, 2008Gee, I don't know...
I'm only listening to these on the Internet so EVERY tone is digital! ;) :D
Now there's a valid thought! :P
CraigBert — Aug 26, 2008Gee, I don't know...
I'm only listening to these on the Internet so EVERY tone is digital! ;) :D
well - how about everyone only records using their 24 track reel to reel tape decks mixes on their classic analogue desks and bounces to vinyl masters and mails them to you. :D
fingers — Aug 26, 2008[quote author=CraigBert link=1219629387/0#10 date=1219761797]Gee, I don't know...
I'm only listening to these on the Internet so EVERY tone is digital! ;) :D
well - how about everyone only records using their 24 track reel to reel tape decks mixes on their classic analogue desks and bounces to vinyl masters and mails them to you. :D
Sounds good to me! :D ;D
Vinyl...good but too fragile ! Who remember the Stereo 8 cartridge ??? :)
For the young peoples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-track_cartridge
Ciao!
Marco
Heh, I had a couple of 8-tracks. They made me laugh. Think about this: Right in the middle of a song, it would fade out, click to the next track and then fade back in! Yeah, that's what I want to hear! NOT!
More than a "click", on mine was a solid "CLACK," ! :)