The Watering Hole

for your pain or pleasure

https://soundcloud.com/jonguk/helix-1

Sounds good, Jon.

Nice!!

can't listen right now (on antiquated iPad) - will tonight

but had to get a "lwb!!!" in here. :)


listening now - liking this!

It's a great piece of equipment for sure.  Interestingly it sounds better (to my mind anyway) if you mic up (stereo room mics) the PA or whatever you put the helix through.  I also have the 800 watt Lt2 (or is it L2t, can never remember which way around that is) powered cab/PA/whatever.  It sounds great through that.

I'm kinda considering one actually.

- can apparently handle a line level effects loop
- lots of effects that I otherwise wouldn't buy as pedals
- DI out and re-amping (since I haven't bought a line -> instrument impedance converting device yet)
- guitar -> helix -> amp inst. -> amp loop -> helix -> amp return is very intriguing as an effects platform.
- can use non-line6 IRs

plus, would be nice to have a jam/practice thing like that anyway. but... haven't persuaded myself all of that is worth $1500 to me.

ironsheep — Jan 27, 2016I'm kinda considering one actually.

- can apparently handle a line level effects loop
- lots of effects that I otherwise wouldn't buy as pedals
- DI out and re-amping (since I haven't bought a line -> instrument impedance converting device yet)
- guitar -> helix -> amp inst. -> amp loop -> helix -> amp return is very intriguing as an effects platform.
- can use non-line6 IRs

plus, would be nice to have a jam/practice thing like that anyway. but... haven't persuaded myself all of that is worth $1500 to me.

The i/o capability is what got me interested in it.  You can set up the sends and returns (4 of each) so that you place them anywhere in your chain. Eg you could have one send at the start so you send out a DI, you could set up another send after the amp but before the cab and send that anywhere you want etc.  You could then setup a return to take the output from your DAW and reamp it.  All the sends/returns can be setup to be either pedal-level or line-level.  It's brilliant.  If it wasn't for all of that stuff then I probably would not have considered it. Glad I did though as it actually sounds very good too and definitely has touch sensitivity is spades.

Am I stoking your GAS pedal yet  ;D

heh, yeah!

how does it handle line level signals on the loops?

if I send line level to an input on the Helix, I'm assuming I can get line level back after effects... true?

my flexi has a line level effects loop (which has meant, it doesn't have an effects loop... essentially). I'm thinking this thing might be an "effects rack" for it in the loop.

plus, if it has a switchable loop before going to the amp... I could use the univalve as a distortion pedal... heh, that would be awesome.

Yes you canset the send and return to either be both pedal or line so it would work well with the flexi. You could also use the 4 cable method as it is called so that you could run effects before and after the flexi. Very versatile

http://youtu.be/Wvz3L8bJb1w

hmm... that's pretty cool!

but I'm realizing I could do all this for around $500 with a couple radial boxes and a passive loop switch for the univalve...

I think I'll start with the passive loop switch and see how into this I might be. Every time I think about reamping I get super interested and then... I realize that I'm staring into the abyss of All Possibilities. step in and I might never make it back out! lol.

ironsheep — Jan 28, 2016hmm... that's pretty cool!

but I'm realizing I could do all this for around $500 with a couple radial boxes and a passive loop switch for the univalve...

I think I'll start with the passive loop switch and see how into this I might be. Every time I think about reamping I get super interested and then... I realize that I'm staring into the abyss of All Possibilities. step in and I might never make it back out! lol.

I went through a phase of reamping everything and then had this sudden realization of what a waste of time it is. The only kind of reamping that I do now is more along the lines of "re-speaker-ing", which I have been using the helix for a lot just lately.  Take a send from helix before the speaker cab and before all the delays and reverbs and record that into the DAW on a mono track.  So I'm playing and monitoring with all the delays and reverbs and everything else but only capturing the amp sound prior to the speaker and delays etc.  Then later when volume allows, send the pre-speaker helix sound out of the DAW into the helix only for effects (delays etc) and then into a hi-fi amp driving a real guitar cab and then mic it up in the room.  That works really well and keeps a nice "all in one" solution.   Haven't recorded anything yet with this approach, just been messing about with it over the past couple of weeks.

I find that going the full reamping route (reamping the dry DI back to an amp etc) never gets good results as the DI back to the amp never reacts the same as the guitar to the amp, even by using all the correct tools for the job etc. Also a big problem is HISS. Once you reamp a dry signal from your DAW you amplify the noise(hiss) from your sound card (I use roland octacapture) exponentially as soon as you add some drive/distortion etc to your amp. It very soon becomes unworkable. I've spent quite a bit of money over the past year trying to make reamping a "real" alternative but it just isn't....wastes far too much time.  It's all mostly hype by the companies that want to sell you the DI box and the reamp box (of which I succumbed to at one stage).  You just go round in circles. Better to grab the amp sound before the speaker and then just mess about with that bit after the fact into a real guitar speaker and a real microphone(s)

thanks for that - your experience is pretty much exactly what I was concerned about.

I hadn't even considered the problem of reamping noise - that would be a big problem as my signal chain is far from noiseless.

phew, GAS levels much more manageable now. heh.

Jon — Jan 28, 2016[quote author=ironsheep link=1453657454/0#9 date=1453949487]hmm... that's pretty cool!

but I'm realizing I could do all this for around $500 with a couple radial boxes and a passive loop switch for the univalve...

I think I'll start with the passive loop switch and see how into this I might be. Every time I think about reamping I get super interested and then... I realize that I'm staring into the abyss of All Possibilities. step in and I might never make it back out! lol.

I went through a phase of reamping everything and then had this sudden realization of what a waste of time it is. The only kind of reamping that I do now is more along the lines of "re-speaker-ing", which I have been using the helix for a lot just lately.  Take a send from helix before the speaker cab and before all the delays and reverbs and record that into the DAW on a mono track.  So I'm playing and monitoring with all the delays and reverbs and everything else but only capturing the amp sound prior to the speaker and delays etc.  Then later when volume allows, send the pre-speaker helix sound out of the DAW into the helix only for effects (delays etc) and then into a hi-fi amp driving a real guitar cab and then mic it up in the room.  That works really well and keeps a nice "all in one" solution.   Haven't recorded anything yet with this approach, just been messing about with it over the past couple of weeks.

I find that going the full reamping route (reamping the dry DI back to an amp etc) never gets good results as the DI back to the amp never reacts the same as the guitar to the amp, even by using all the correct tools for the job etc. Also a big problem is HISS. Once you reamp a dry signal from your DAW you amplify the noise(hiss) from your sound card (I use roland octacapture) exponentially as soon as you add some drive/distortion etc to your amp. It very soon becomes unworkable. I've spent quite a bit of money over the past year trying to make reamping a "real" alternative but it just isn't....wastes far too much time.  It's all mostly hype by the companies that want to sell you the DI box and the reamp box (of which I succumbed to at one stage).  You just go round in circles. Better to grab the amp sound before the speaker and then just mess about with that bit after the fact into a real guitar speaker and a real microphone(s)




FWIW, I've had the exact opposite experience.  We take a DI and reamp all the time.  You shouldn't be experiencing hiss when you do it, but I guess some of that depends on your DI and your I/O-- a clean DI signal out of your digital system should be pretty much identical to the sound coming out of your pickups.  A simple radial DI and a Radial x-amp box is all we've ever used and it works brilliantly almost every time.  Note that not all DIs are created equal, and you are guaranteed to get some noise using the "instrument in/HiZ in" on your soundcard... those things are always an afterthought in my experience and sound like hiss factories.  

We'll go straight to a mic pre with the Radial JDI, using the Thru output to the room guitar rig. Or we'll plug in to a good preamp with a well-designed DI input (we use a Neve clone for this), then split the signal with a mixer or buffered splitter box, one to the DAW, the other out to your live rig. JDI is easier and sounds killer. Then on the way out, we use the Radial X-Amp.  Never had a problem with noise in that scenario. I've compared side by side with a cable to the amp and I can't tell the difference, once I adjust the DI reamped volume to match the guitar volume.  9 times out of 10 the JDI and X-AMP works perfectly, for the corner cases (and for bass) we usually use a preamp.

charger — Feb 01, 2016[quote author=Jon G link=1453657454/0#10 date=1453973849]

FWIW, I've had the exact opposite experience.  We take a DI and reamp all the time.  You shouldn't be experiencing hiss when you do it, but I guess some of that depends on your DI and your I/O-- a clean DI signal out of your digital system should be pretty much identical to the sound coming out of your pickups.  A simple radial DI and a Radial x-amp box is all we've ever used and it works brilliantly almost every time.  Note that not all DIs are created equal, and you are guaranteed to get some noise using the "instrument in/HiZ in" on your soundcard... those things are always an afterthought in my experience and sound like hiss factories.  

We'll go straight to a mic pre with the Radial JDI, using the Thru output to the room guitar rig. Or we'll plug in to a good preamp with a well-designed DI input (we use a Neve clone for this), then split the signal with a mixer or buffered splitter box, one to the DAW, the other out to your live rig. JDI is easier and sounds killer. Then on the way out, we use the Radial X-Amp.  Never had a problem with noise in that scenario. I've compared side by side with a cable to the amp and I can't tell the difference, once I adjust the DI reamped volume to match the guitar volume.  9 times out of 10 the JDI and X-AMP works perfectly, for the corner cases (and for bass) we usually use a preamp.

I DI the same way that you do via the Radial J48 direct box with a nice hot signal to the DAW but never clipping (I've also tried DI direct from one of the sends from the Helix with the same results). The DI always sounds very pristine and clean on its own. Maybe you have a lower noise line out from your sound card than I do.  I take a line out from channel 8 of the Roland Octacapture into the X-amp and then to the amp.  All sounds great until you crank the gain a little bit and then the inherent noise within the octacapture line out just get amplified to unusable levels.  It's fine if you just reamp to a clean or slightly driven guitar amp but for anything else it's crap.  What audio interface do you line-out to the X-amp from ?

Avid HD I/O.  Normally I wouldn't put much stock in it, but it could be a factor that *on paper* there a 23 db of difference in the noise factors of the two (Roland @ -87dB, Avid at -110dB).

charger — Feb 03, 2016Avid HD I/O.  Normally I wouldn't put much stock in it, but it could be a factor that *on paper* there a 23 db of difference in the noise factors of the two (Roland @ -87dB, Avid at -110dB).

That would probably make quite a difference once you start cranking the amp gain. I might have a look at some other interfaces see what can give me the s/n ratio on the output that I need  as I have always liked the concept of reamping but just never works for me because of the hiss.