The Watering Hole

I'm using new speakers with a sub woofer so I would be interested to know if you think the way I have eq'd the individual tracks in this sounds ok on your systems and if not what is wrong with it.

I've messed around with the EQ so much today that my ears are completely fried so I don't really know if this works or not.

Guitars are fucking great IMO, really like the single/lead notes tone. Everything is nice actually except perhaps the bass guitar needing a little more low end.

Kabala — Aug 04, 2012Guitars are fucking great IMO, really like the lead tone. Everything is nice actually except perhaps the bass needing a little more low end.

That's a nice surprise, thanks. (the amp was through a cab sim)

Without a sub I always over-cook the bass and now with a sub it seems I under do it :)

Here's another go at it, this time it's a real cab mic'd with an Audix i5

Sounds great !

Guitars are really good. Maybe I prefer the first one because it sounds more "defined".

mix-wise, I'd vote for little less guitar volume level.

the low end is a little sub heavy (eq, not volume - I think the levels on the rhythm section are a little low compared to the guitar) - not overly so, but the rest of the lows don't really match it. could use more in the 80-220 range from the drums and bass or less in the sub 80 (guesstimate). the rhythm section sounds a little scooped to me - drum kit particularly.

but, that said, it all sounds good (detail, etc) - just not how I'd mix/eq it, I guess! :)

what do you have the crossover set at (Hz) for your sub?

ironsheep — Aug 06, 2012mix-wise, I'd vote for little less guitar volume level.

the low end is a little sub heavy (eq, not volume - I think the levels on the rhythm section are a little low compared to the guitar) - not overly so, but the rest of the lows don't really match it. could use more in the 80-220 range from the drums and bass or less in the sub 80 (guesstimate). the rhythm section sounds a little scooped to me - drum kit particularly.

but, that said, it all sounds good (detail, etc) - just not how I'd mix/eq it, I guess! :)

what do you have the crossover set at (Hz) for your sub?

I think you are absolutely spot on with all of the above.  I dropped the mids on the bass and drums to sound better with the sub on but when playing it back on different speakers it sounds bad.   I'm not so sure getting a sub was such a good idea as it does make critical listening very tiring, but I don't want to go back to the Alesis speakers as they just don't have enough low end.  I'm really after a very small set of active near fields that have enough of everything.

There's a sweet spot where small speakers and a sub can work.  It's a matter of getting control of the sub, but I can't tell you how to set that.  It might be more useful to you to run some test tones through it and hear what you have and what you're missing.

Here's a great set of graphs from Jack Endino.  I always think about analog tape as the reference point for mixing. Analog tapes got two or three things going on with it, first, the bass cut usually between 20-80Hz, which works as a -3dB low cut at one of those frequencies. Second, the head bump, which is a little boost right above the cut frequency.  So even though you cut sharply at 40Hz, you might boost 2 db with a sharp bell curve at 100Hz. These two frequency cuts and boosts give analog tape a lot of its "punchiness" - even though it doesn't have accurate low end like digital, it has enough cut to remove the low end rumble, and enough boost to make kicks and low end instruments sound killer.  The other factor is the high end. It's pretty common for a tape machine to be misaligned on the high end, and have a boost up around 10k.

http://www.endino.com/graphs/

There's some good info in those graphs charger.   I always set my graphic/amp/monitors up to a reference track, eg one of my favourite CD's so that the CD tracks sound how I would like my own stuff to sound and then I mix to try and emulate that....try being the word.  But for some reason with the sub I am just finding it almost impossible to get right and as I said before it makes the listening experience very fatiguing on the ears.  I think for the moment I will return to the Alesis monitors, at least it doesn't give me a headache or ear-ache listening to them.

OK, here's another go, same drums different bass and guitar. I've gone a for a big roomy sound. Again, mixed this with the sub on but tried to take note of some of the science of frequencies.

So, how is the overall balance and bass content of this, good, reasonable or fucking awful.....I can take it  ;D

I was trying to figure out how to describe what I was hearing but the "science of frequencies" put me on to another way of showing it!

this is your track vs. a section (with no vocal or harmonica) from Bring It On Home off the How The West Was Won album, which I think is what you're going for:

your track:

HtWWW:

pictures are RMS peaks over the length of the whole clips (respectively).

I think your reverb might be contributing the ~600Hz mini-peak.

otherwise, more <80 and more 350-2500.

or, less 90-300 and boost up the rest.

something like that.

Interesting, thanks for that.

Is that a VST you are using to get those graphs, if so what vst is it ?

it's Logic's channel EQ (without eq added... just monitoring)

after messing around with it - I think it needs more kick and less bass guitar level. I was getting pretty good sounds with a boost <80 and a deep cut (8-10dB) around 110 (>1 but <2 Q). with the headroom you gain after the big 110 cut, the >350s can come up quite a lot.

I think I will buy voxengo curveEQ, that looks just the job for doing things properly as I can't trust my ears alone on this.

I usually use both, eyes and ears. ;) :)

(some curves that look ugly, sound good)

Yep...definitely can't always look at the Voxengo curve/span (I like "Span" - it's free :)) line and hold it as gold. I use it now and then when examining isolated "pro" guitar tracks, and sometimes the curve looks odd (to me) yet the actual audio will sound great (to me). The proof is not in the ingredients but rather the TASTE of the pudding as they say.  :)

yep, I usually just use it as a check against my ears for overall levels. ears usually win in the case of a dispute! ;)

I think I'm getting used to these speakers a bit now and with the curveEQ (excellent freedrawing function) I'm nearly there.  I will practice some more over the next couple of days and then put up another clip (something new) and see what you think of the balance then.  All good (frustrating) fun  :)

Edit:  Just tried another test using curve eq on each individual track to get the tracks balanced before they enter the mix and things are working better now,  and then put it on CD and played it on the cd/radio boom box in the kitchen....and it sounded fine.....certainly amazed me !  

When it comes to mixing I simply cannot rely on my ears alone as I have this primal urge to just keep pumping up the bass in all the wrong frequencies.....don't know why but it's something I've always suffered from.

All good advice from sheep, much appreciated.

Once more go

liking the levels - but could use a little low shelving going into the reverb, maybe. not sure - there's something happening in the low end that's unusual. sounds like an effect of a reverb on low frequencies but I can't be sure.

ironsheep — Aug 17, 2012liking the levels - but could use a little low shelving going into the reverb, maybe. not sure - there's something happening in the low end that's unusual. sounds like an effect of a reverb on low frequencies but I can't be sure.

Well spotted and bang on.  The reverb didn't have any shelving on it at all, so here it is again, everything the same except dropped the low end of the reverb.

sounds live. thumbs up!

sub is maybe a little thumpy, but that's a part of the live sound to me.

if you want any more critique... I'd go for a warmer snare sound - get a little less scoop happening on the drum kit.

ironsheep — Aug 17, 2012sounds live. thumbs up!

sub is maybe a little thumpy, but that's a part of the live sound to me.

if you want any more critique... I'd go for a warmer snare sound - get a little less scoop happening on the drum kit.

I always have trouble with the snare, mostly I think because there doesn't seem to be the particular snare sound that I like 100% in superior, it's close but not quite what I want, but on the other hand, close enough.

By the way the guitar sound in this is the germanium bigmuff pedal straight into reaper, no amp at all and then just put one of the guitar hacks cab impulses on it.

Jon — Aug 04, 2012I'm using new speakers with a sub woofer so I would be interested to know if you think the way I have eq'd the individual tracks in this sounds ok on your systems and if not what is wrong with it.

I've messed around with the EQ so much today that my ears are completely fried so I don't really know if this works or not.

Guitars are great.