The Watering Hole

Just fooling around with the dual mic thing (on one speaker).

thanks

Short Clip

hmm, high mids are a little rough - cab bottom thunk going on too.

but, I like it - bottom is easily eq'ed... high mids is a preference thing -- nice definition overall.

are you mic'ing a 4x12? what kind of speaker?

just asking cause I'm in the early stages of new speaker/cab gas lately... :)

I'm with Ironsheep. IMHO there's too much.."cab  sound" ..I don't know how to explayin that.. :)

That said..I would not be able to get a sound like this in 1000 years ! ;)
Good take !

Ciao !
Marco

Ok, thanks for the input. I can work with it from here because its a very generic setup - guitar > amp > Egnater 2x12, Eminence Small Block (their version of a G12M Greenback but @ 55w) > sm57/e906. The amp settings are close to flat so I'm guessing I still need to fool around with the mics, they are a couple of inches out from the cloth, dead center. Wondering if removing the back of the cab will help with that "thunk?" Maybe I should give on the two mics and just go back to one. Got to mow the yard but hope to try again in a while.

Sounds good to me - "in a mix" you could EQ that how you liked.

Thanks Fingers. Glad you said that because I've already tracked an entire tune with those settings and I'll be spending a ton of time tweaking now. Before I started working on anything else I thought I'd experiment some more though..so here we go:

Drawing board clip

REALLY simple settings now, lol, even tried the little switch on the e906 mic - it was on the brightest setting, this clip is on "neutral." Also removed the back of the cab, I think I hear what they were hearing now that I did that and compared clips, this doesn't have all the cab shit in the low end, seems tighter (?)...but, maybe now its too muddy or are my ears just screwed for the day? Is this an improvement or should I go back to previous settings and tweak fromt there? Seems like this is missing some "teeth" maybe?

Thanks again. I WILL get this with your help. I spent too much on gear, somewhere in this rig is a great tone waiting to be found...


edit: And one more quickie sample, getting late for me, playing is weak, lol.

LOUDER new clip

I actually like the 1st mp3 (mp3 2 I think) as I am a great fan of the sound of the cabinet not just the close sound from the speaker.
However, there is too much cabinet thump in this clip to sit within a mix, but then as fingers said earlier that can be eq'd to fit later.

Something to consider:  I have just bought (2 days ago) a Radial Pro RMP reamp box specifically so I can fiddle around with mic placement etc "'til the cows come home" after I have recorded.   I haven't got anything good to put up clip-wise yet, but it really does work very well.   It might be worth your while getting one of these as your tracks are not then set in stone forever if you choose to change the sound later, and still be in the "real" world of amps & cabs.

is listening to your amp playing itself weird ?

will listen to the new clips later.

Thanks, Jon. Listening here at work on cheap speakers today, I now really think the last clip is much closer to where I'd like it to be, sounds thick but better balanced, nothing jumping out at me as way off. Just not sure on the mids though? Sheepster? More/less?

I just about never hear my amp in front of me these days - the cab is tucked away in my ghetto style iso-room, sound treated and all, I simply play and tweak the amp settings from the desktop/monitors, helps me dial in the finished tone...they are so different, ya know, a raw amp/live band sound vs a 'sits in the mix, finished' tone.

Fingers said:
================================
is listening to your amp playing itself weird ?
================================


actually, yes it is a very odd sensation....you also hear how bad you really are when it is raw through the amp  ;D

^LOL! Exactly! Yet another reason I like playing/listening at the 'workstation' as opposed to blasting my brains out via a raw amp - a lot of bad playing gets masked!

All good tones, 2nd one sounds flat on the grill to me, the 3rd has a more top to the same.
and the 1st has a more organic roomy sound

The comment about "amp playing itself" is about the Radial Pro RMP reamp box

where you record the guitar signal dry and it is sent  and reamp'd through the amp from the DAW.
i.e. you don't plug the guitar into the amp directly but into a soundcard and send it from a line out to the amp.
so after you can play around with mic placement.

I experimented with this in ignorance of impedance matching about 4 years ago - dull lifeless result.
But even with my ignorant attempt I do remember watching the amp play itself - and it was very weird.

I could tell that something was up with the line out as signal source as it  obviously sucked compared to plugging the guitar straight in. I learnt about the impedance stuff later.

The Radial Pro RMP reamp box takes a low impedance line out from the soundcard and turns it into a high impendance (guitar style) signal source for the amp.

http://www.radialeng.com/re-prormp.htm

definitely worth a buy if it does what it says on the tin.

You can track without worrying that a great take will be fucked by poor/naive choices in mic'ing the amp - and also explore best mic placement with exactly the same take
Go get one :)

ironsheep — Jun 30, 2010hmm, high mids are a little rough - cab bottom thunk going on too.

but, I like it - bottom is easily eq'ed... high mids is a preference thing -- nice definition overall.

Yep

those two sound kinda cool - cab thump gone (maybe too much of it gone...? heh). would probably need a mix to know how the mids sit - sounds kinda harsh and super scooped alone but that'd probably work out as cut when mixed. dunno.

I think any of these clips could be usable in the right context.

Thanks again for the straight/honest takes. I've been sifting through the splawn site forum for settings and have discovered that my choice for having the mid knob WAY down there at 8 oclock is no good - my thinking was these are mid-y voiced amps, but thats just the nature of the beast. I'm gonna try some of the settings I found there later and prolly post one more little clip.

I think I can salvage the tune I tracked with some post EQ though, which I tried here. These are the same exact settings, mic placements, etc, just had the gain maxed and I boosted with the OD808 and added some verb later. The only post EQ now was bumping some of the mids back up. I don't think its anything special but its not horrible either. I still hear that cab "thunk" though as you put it Sheep, not sure how to EQ that out (?).

Tune Excerpt

sounds V good - playing as well satch like

You could easily mix and efx process that into a satch like number with those tones.

K, final raw amp clip here. Just calling it "Mic_Test_1" even though it's like #12, lol. I think this is it now, sounds miles better that what I started with anyway, glad I made the thread for some help. Ended up with some odd looking settings on the amp but I guess that shouldn't matter, only use the ears, not the peepers, that whole thing.

Tiny clip again, some pointless, sloppy penta-lame stuff and not enough chords...

Last Amp Clip


Fingers, thanks for checking the tune clip out! Any specific suggestions then to enhance that? It's a pretty straight forward mix. I guess I could add more verb to the lead guitar? EQ wise I'm not sure of what to mess with, maybe just a hint more high end? How about a teeny dash of Sonic Max instead, just to make it jump a touch? Thanks again.

Last track tone sounds V good - sounds smoother in the upper mids.

I'm not good at offering specific suggestions on how to mix - it sounds good already so don't do too much.
I've never used a sonic maximiser so don't know - people seem not to recommend them though.

I usually play around with things tweaking by ear - trying out compression, EQ, reverb/delay plugs to see what works.
I keep the most of the dry signal going - especially if it already sounds good and throw verbs/delays on sends so you can mix in what you want or not at all.

But it is all so subjective.

Everyone here would do a different job on it

Sonic Maximizers and Aural Exciters (different brands and approaches) should never be used for recording.  They "optimize" the sound when playing live (they actually attempt to emulate playing live in a kick-ass venue).  They can make playing in your bedroom sound much better, but obviously you don't need that in your recordings since if those are played loud in a nice room it will cause issues.

I have one of each and they are only used as inserts on my "live" rack (which I usually only use with the backing tracks to make them sound more fun to play to).  :)

Kabala — Jul 05, 2010
K, final raw amp clip here. Just calling it "Mic_Test_1" even though it's like #12, lol. I think this is it now, sounds miles better that what I started with anyway, glad I made the thread for some help. Ended up with some odd looking settings on the amp but I guess that shouldn't matter, only use the ears, not the peepers, that whole thing.

Tiny clip again, some pointless, sloppy penta-lame stuff and not enough chords...

Last Amp Clip


Fingers, thanks for checking the tune clip out! Any specific suggestions then to enhance that? It's a pretty straight forward mix. I guess I could add more verb to the lead guitar? EQ wise I'm not sure of what to mess with, maybe just a hint more high end? How about a teeny dash of Sonic Max instead, just to make it jump a touch? Thanks again.

I like where this has gotten to and agree that it needs a hint of high-end.  You've already seen what I think about using the Sonic Max.  REMEMBER: This is only the guitar by itself!  You'll find that after you double-track it and put it into a mix that it may actually have too much gain (or not ;) ).  Note that adding verb will push the guitar tone back into the mix - not always what you want for a lead.  

In other words, I think the tone is at a good place for now (except for that hint of lime, er, high-end :D ).  You'll probably need to make some subtle adjustments (seasonings) once you know what mix it will go into.

(There, that's my 2 cents. :) )

Thanks again for all the help. I was just grasping for ideas about the Sonic Max, I won't use any on these guitar tones! I do have an old 362 in my tiny rack but its not even hooked up - thats the LAST thing either of my current heads need, lol.

I think the tune mix itself is actually where I need just a hint more high end, not necessarily the guitar tone itself, at least thats what strikes me now that I stayed away from it for a few days. Anyway, I can try both and see what works better - but its sooo much easier to fool around with now that things are finally in the ball park.

Derek,

my two cents on the final link you posted, I think you have a good raw tone, but will have to see how it fits in a mix.

Also you don't really want to anything on a 2 bus/master bus no eq, compression, nada.  There are big name guys that do use a compressor on their 2 bus, but they are mixing with it there from the get go, and as to whether it is a good idea or not is highly subjective.

Try to get all of your adjustments through the mix itself  truthfully in a mix that tone might have enough highs, depends on what else you have going on.

Thanks for chiming in, Richard. A lot of what I've been trying (mix wise) is from stuff I've been reading in our recording area. Things like taking a mix and exporting out a stereo wav, creating a new template (and saving it, lol) for a stereo master and mastering from there, like applying two or three (at the most) plugins, etc. The one's I'm trying right now are PspMasterQ to shape the overall EQ just a hair > SSL Channel compressor thingy (whatever its called) and lastly I think Voxengo's Elephant. Pretty basic stuff and I'm using them all very subtly, at minimal settings. This might seem against the grain, especially when you say try to NOT do this, but for beginners, it'll have to do!

As for the guitars in their respective channels when tracking...I think the way its laid out right now, including the raw amp clips above (at work, this is going on memory) is the channels only have one plugin being used, a hi/lo pass filter (set @ 60hz/12k). They get sent to a multi/group channel which does have a compressor on it (the old C4 + sneap settings) but thats it. It all goes on to the master from there (which has nothing on it as explained earlier, just export the raw mix out as is and use my 'mastering template'). I have been appying a hint of verb individually on the guitars every time I mess with a mix because the Lex plugin is a resource hog but I do like the sound, so at least I'm not stuck with it.

Anyway, gonna add a dash of high end later today if I have time and compare the two...I'm thinking something around 8k, like just a couple db should help out without getting too gritty sounding.

yeah at the "mastering" end of things yeah, but even then try to get your mix where you don't need to really do any eqing.

Your ears will love you in the end.

for that sweetness you are looking for try 6.4k to 8.0k sweep across that range with a .8 to 1.6Q I would say no more than 1db.  most likely .5 will do it

Ligerborn — Jul 06, 2010for that sweetness you are looking for try 6.4k to 8.0k sweep across that range with a .8 to 1.6Q I would say no more than 1db.  most likely .5 will do it

Bullseye. Thanks for that exacting suggestion dude. I think that did it, such a subtle tweak, but with it, I don't really have to fool with the amp right now unless I'm looking for something drastically different, this seems to tie things up nicely! That last link ("Last Amp Clip") has been updated (same file name, Mic_Test_1) with a hint of polish now. Ended up liking the 6.5k, 1.0Q and about 1.25 db the most. I can hear a nice touch of sweetness but with no harm. I'm satisfied with tone now, especially for chord work.  Best thing of all, this was with two mics on one speaker, I can justify the e906 purchase now.  ;)

Doing an A/B comparison (literally since I have to keep renaming your Mic_Test_1 clips ;) ), your newest incarnation doesn't have nearly the presence and in-your-face sound as the prior version.  This certainly wasn't caused by a small EQ change.  Take the blanket off and try again!  :D

Crank your volume and I promise it will be just as in your face.  ;) I simply lowered the volume while exporting out this last sample mp3 to make it a more normal level clip, lol. The tone is the same except the slight high end tweak, promise! When I was A/Bing with some reference clips I realized my previous one's were way too loud and it made comparing a pain.

I hate replacing a previous file with a new one when upping several more for comparisons, especially when it's the first one in the damn thread...but it HAD to be updated pronto. Sheep's polite initial comment doesn't make much sense now but it had to be swapped out because, well, it sounded like ass.   ;)

edit: here you go....same as most recent clip, just LOUDER!

Mic Test 1 HOT

The only problem when you're asking for tone opinions is that volume DOES matter.  It's that 'ol Fletcher Munson curve stuff (no, I won't add my usual link this time ;) ).  It's important in this case because I'm comparing them back-to-back and, at lower volumes, you lose more than just the definition of the tone, you lose some highs and lows (i.e., part of what you were changing!).

I'll give the new clip a try tomorrow when I can turn it up!  :)

Cool glad you got it nailed to your liking, honestly the only opinion that really matters.  We do sometimes forget that as musicians and artists.  

Now making it work in a mix is another story.  

We have to take off the artist/musician hats and put on the engineer hat, which means making sure the overall sonic picture is balanced and presented well...

A lot of times what we think is a great tone by itself is an total mess within the mix.  And what sounds like total ass solo'd works perfectly in the mix.  Granted, the arrangement delegates a lot of that.  How many other things are going on.

So I guess what I am getting at, is get a song recorded with this tone, and go from there.  That will be the ultimate test of how it sits, fits and shits.