The Watering Hole

so... since the flexi is still in for repairs and the uber's clean channel just isn't at all vintage-y, had to un-mothball the univalve.

this is '69 fuzz (running on battery power... makes a big difference. I assumed it was cork sniffer legend but no, it's actually better) -> bogner blue (for the eq, no real gain going on - it's on by itself towards the end) -> univalve.

almost closing in on plankton tone... after 7 years? lol.

Fulltone 69???  

I like it.  

yessir, 2004 model... that's the extent of my cork sniffage info. ;D

Sounds great to my ears!

......maybe a little of keyboards is missing ?  Just joking!  ;D

You know....CD....oh well... :)

I'm thinking I'll do a CD with one song on it that runs for about an hour.  :D

oh come on. you have to share!  :)     I have always wanted to try both the 69 and the 70.  

Also, IMO, the "sounds better with a batter" thing with fuzz pedals...   I have found it depends a lot on what power supply you are using.  If you use a regulated one, and it's getting relatively clean power, the only difference IMHO is the voltage and resistance (some batteries will sound better than others due to internal resistance...).  Also, A clean, strictly regulated 9V supply may not sound as good as a fresh batter putting out 10.1 volts or whatever, for example.  Or 8.4 for that matter.

The last fuzz pedal I had was a good one.  BYOC ESV.   I tried it with every supply I had.  I also tried 3 different batteries including an Eric Johnson approved old style carbon zinc battery. Of all I tried, my conditioned and regulated supply on my Furman pedalboard was the one I stuck with.  One battery was a bit cleaner one time and not the next, which tells me my power to the board must have been dirtier that night.  Also, that pedal had an external bias knob and which sounded better was influenced by where the bias knob was set.  (Which makes sense with varying voltages).  

See, you had to go and get me started!  LOL    

I'm not holding out on you... that's all I know! :)

I have the '70 too... anything in particular you want to know? it's cool too.

DOG!  LOL  I did find some power supplies made me not like fuzz pedals that sounded really good with others or with batteries.  If you found one that is "better" stick with it!  No question there are differences and fuzz pedals are amongst the most picky.  The simpler the circuit, the more they vary, again, IMHO.  Not questioning for a second though that you found something that sounds better. I trust your ear!

Yea, can I borrow them?    ;)    

Your thoughts on them.  How they compare. Do I need both???  LOL  might be better in another thread or such.  Don't want to completely ambush this thread.  

FWIW, a battery is always the cleanest power source you can use, bar none. If you only use batteries you don't even need any DC filtering or AC pulse suppression in your pedal.  And with some fuzz pedals as the batteries deplete you get a change in bias in the transistors that can sound killer.

Wow, me likey!

Very Plankton-like indeed.  :)

More please.   :D

'69 vs '70... hmm. comparing the '70 to the sound on this track... it's got more low end (very bassy/muddy) and smoother on the top end. thinking of it as an eq curve... the '69 is pretty flat, the '70 is angled down, left (low freq) boosted to right (highs) "cut" -- they're not really cut, but they're swamped out by the bass... that can be compensated with the trim pot inside a bit though. "warmer" might be a way to say it, but not really... it's just way bassier. it has more gain... and more output lvl available (it seems... unmeasured). I'll do something tomorrow with both of them. that'd be much easier.

'70 sounds about the same with battery as with adapter... maybe even slightly better with adapter. whatever that means.

'69 just has a really shitty artifact in the high end of the fuzz when using an adapter that totally vanishes with battery power. glad I didn't sell it!

CraigBert — Aug 13, 2013More please.   :D

ok!

'70 sounds like this:

I like that one too.  I'll have to listen with headphones later to get a clearer picture of which I like best.  

the '70 has better radio reception than the '69, if that's a factor. ;)

it can also sound less spitty than this clip... I must have changed the internal pot... I'll check it out - it changes it a ton.

If you read the info on Fulltone's site, the 69 is supposed to be more smooth fuzz face and the 70 more square wave and aggressive (mismatched trannies, etc).    If that internal trim is bias, then yeah it will change things considerably.  

The '69 sounds better with a battery because it's using Germanium transistors.  Those are truly the only good transistors that sound better as a battery dies.  Try depleting your battery and see how it sounds--yeehaw!  This circuit is 99% stock fuzz face, the oldest, truest fuzz out there, though I'm not sure what PNP transistors fuller is using... those can make a big difference.

The 70 gets better radio reception because it's actually using a Germanium diode as one half of the asymmetric clipping diode pair (the other diode is a standard 1n914 silicon diode).  Germanium diodes are also the "crystals" in a crystal radio, and yes, they get fantastic reception.  The circuit is very much the adapted "silicon fuzz face" that came about because silicon transistors got to be so damn cheap, though it's using diode clipping too, so it's a little bit of a hybrid.  I'd be surprised if it sounded at all like the 69.  Remember to put the 69 first in the chain.

ironsheep — Aug 13, 2013[quote author=CraigBert link=1376317654/0#9 date=1376353052]More please.   :D

ok!

Well!  Since that worked so well, how about...

CD please!  :D ;D

hmm, a CD's tough... I can't make that just appear in your hands. how about a band name instead? ironsheep and the afterthoughts?

is there a way to change the station my '70 picks up? it'd be so much better if it could get shortwave bbc instead of pastor hilldude's sermons. I should send an email to fuller complaining about it. there's some potential for an epic response there... if I got one. lol!!

I must have a dead battery around here somewhere... must.try.this.

the only time I have anything in front of a fuzz is if I'm trying to get freakouts... they're so awesome for whistles and surprising sounds with a wah/filter/mod in front. but for normal use I don't even put a fuzz before a fuzz... only a true bypass tuner and even that's questionable.

charger — Aug 13, 2013The '69 sounds better with a battery because it's using Germanium transistors.  Those are truly the only good transistors that sound better as a battery dies.  Try depleting your battery and see how it sounds--yeehaw!  This circuit is 99% stock fuzz face, the oldest, truest fuzz out there, though I'm not sure what PNP transistors fuller is using... those can make a big difference.

The 70 gets better radio reception because it's actually using a Germanium diode as one half of the asymmetric clipping diode pair (the other diode is a standard 1n914 silicon diode).  Germanium diodes are also the "crystals" in a crystal radio, and yes, they get fantastic reception.  The circuit is very much the adapted "silicon fuzz face" that came about because silicon transistors got to be so damn cheap, though it's using diode clipping too, so it's a little bit of a hybrid.  I'd be surprised if it sounded at all like the 69.  Remember to put the 69 first in the chain.

Just curious, but I usually have all my stomps on a powered Furman pedal board, so could you make a stomp with knob to vary the voltage a little?  (Kind of a mini-Variac?)

the pedal power has something like that, I think... a sag control?

ironsheep — Aug 13, 2013hmm, a CD's tough... I can't make that just appear in your hands. how about a band name instead? ironsheep and the afterthoughts?

is there a way to change the station my '70 picks up? it'd be so much better if it could get shortwave bbc instead of pastor hilldude's sermons. I should send an email to fuller complaining about it. there's some potential for an epic response there... if I got one. lol!!

I must have a dead battery around here somewhere... must.try.this.

the only time I have anything in front of a fuzz is if I'm trying to get freakouts... they're so awesome for whistles and surprising sounds with a wah/filter/mod in front. but for normal use I don't even put a fuzz before a fuzz... only a true bypass tuner and even that's questionable.

Just listened to that 70's clip and that radio lead in works perfectly!  Too bad you can't control it though - lol!  :)

(Oh yeah, and the playing rawks too!  ;) )

BTW - No need to make your name longer than it is.  I think just using "Ironsheep" would be perfect!

roger that... it would be appropriate for my "rhythm section" to have that name, though. ;)

IIRC the station will change with more voltage...
If you're interested I can make a very simple voltage box that takes a standard boss 9v in, and puts out 9 and 18v negative ground (Boss), and 9v positive ground (fuzz face), with a big knob to control the voltage of the positive ground 9v.  I think you can get usable sounds all the way down to around 3-4v with germanium transistors.  

BTW, I can't stop listening to the '69 clip... there's a nice grunginess to the 70, but more fluidity in the 69.

+1 to Chargers comments above.  The Bias knob on the BYOC ESV made HUGE differences in the sound.  And Sheep, yes this is why they put the sag control on that power supply!  Some guys will find a spot they like best and leave it there.  

Good germaniums are very expensive these days.  I've seen some primo NOS ones for as much as $75 per matched pair!  Some more!  But in a fuzz face type circuit, they are extremely important to the sound.  Fuller is known for being pretty picky (discontinued the 69 when his last source of what he felt were "good enough" was exhausted.  Resumed with the new model when he found another supply of good ones).  

Try that sag and see if what you are liking about the battery is just that it's putting out less than 9V.  If so, you can lock it in and maybe have the holy grail.  As that battery continues to drain it will sound different.  Many simple fuzz circuits are "good" down to around 5V, and usable even below that.  Mine got a bit anemic at 5V but it was a sort of cool old vibe tone.  With that particular pedal, best tones were from 7-9V.

Nah, PNP germaniums are still pretty cheap, there are millions of them still out there. Only NPNs are really expensive.  That's why most guys still make the old style positive ground pedals, because it saves a couple bucks on the transistors. $75 for a pair of PNP transistors, there's a saying about a fool and his money--even the (ludicrously overhyped and IMO total BS) NKT275, as used in the (also ridiculously overhyped and overpriced) Sun Face, are only $25 a pair at the high end.  

I can build anything fuzz face related and include the voltage inverter and sag control for less than $5.  Even a sunface I could build at $100 and make a healthy profit. If you're paying $150+ for a pedal, it's just good form to add a charge pump circuit for about $2 that not lets you use your Boss-style power supply. And from there, why not add a freaking pot to let you sag your voltage? $1.50?  There's no reason nowadays not to provide a standardized power interface and with Ge transistors, to make the voltage variable.  Hell I'd do the voltage inverter on any positive ground perdal that costs more than $75 just to save the players the headache!

A fuzz pedal is one thing I don't have.  Soon I'm hoping to get back into music things (selling stuff I don't need as well) and would love a custom Charger stomp.

Heck, most of the pedals I have now are custom (including a Dar EQ).

Do you think you could make a "Fuzz Super Pedal" with all the bells and whistles?  Maybe as a double-wide stomp - lol!  :)

Yeah, that's a good idea.  Do a germanium and silicon fuzz face, and a big muff... kill every bird with one stone. We recently bought some extra large pedal cases with that very idea, to build 4 effects in each one... my idea was the "gig pedal", to have a tubescreamer/overdrive, distortion, fuzz, and a delay in one box.  You could make them all top notch, too, like all cork sniffers.  With a switchable buffer at the front end, and if there's room, a boost...

Wow!  Let me know if you get around to making one of those - since I don't have any fuzz stomps, it would be great to cover a lot of options in one shot!  :)

I would think the mids control on the 70 and I guess a similar type control (?) on the 69 would be killer features to build in since many fuzz pedals sound great with single coils but are too mushy with humbuckers.  

Maybe he could call it the "Fuzziest Stomp?"  :D