23 posts
Well, I don't need one, but I got one.
Let me start by saying this is a expensive monitor volume control that I can switch sources and monitors on while (8-)) and listening to music. ;D
Man, I read countless reviews on this thing and it confirmed to me that people either have no fucking clue as to what they are talking about or their ears are shit from loud music. ;D Obviously I read some negative reviews.
I love the hell out of this thing. I read reviews about how it colors the sound and all this crazy bullshit until I got pissed and bought one. For some crazy reason, and I'll use the word change in place of color here, people think that anything they put in front of their monitors either changes the sound or is completely clean, free from change. Are people just mind fucked from the internet or what?
Of course it changes the sound, when compared to..... any damn thing. Even passive volume knobs change the sound when compared to hooking up directly to a mp3 player, for example. There really isn't anything that will replace actually trying something for yourself. I think the internet is full of bullshit fuckheads. ;D
The damn thing sounds great for listening to music. Excellent, in fact. Not perfect, but I don't even know a girl that perfect. I have 3 sets of monitors and swithching between them manually became a pain that made me search out items. ;D
I can't say much other than it a good product for what I need and I put a small speaker in the living room and used the mic thing to scare the shit out of my daughters yesterday. ;D ;D
Every volume change changes the sound. Fltecher-Munson, bitches.
It seems like once a year I end up putting this link into a forum. ;)
http://www.nwdreamer.com/misc/FletcherMunsonCurve.doc
https://www.google.com/search?q=fletcher-munson&tbm=isch
Why then, do studio monitor makers all say their monitors are transparent? Transparent really doesn't exist, right? Or do I misunderstand?
the human ear isn't transparent at various volume levels, is the thing.
volume level differences (from the same equipment) produce varying perceptions of the frequency levels in a non-linear way when heard at the ear.
might sound like it has no bass at low volume, good distribution at mid level and maybe a tad too much sub at high volume... even though, technically, the sound system is reproducing the source material transparently at all those levels. the system can be transparent but it doesn't sound like it to us at any given volume level change... hence the arrival of things like the "loudness" button. boosting the low end to make it sound more like it does when it's loud and the low frequencies are more apparent to the ear - making it less transparent to sound transparent at low volume!
basically, the human ear isn't a flat response mic.
or words to that effect... I'm probably wrong on some technical semantics or something... but that's my understanding. disclaimer. disclaimer. etc.
Transparent is the worst word to describe audio gear. I don't know why gear makers call their stuff what they do. Audio is subtle. Fact is, you can put ten different monitors next to each other, play white noise through them and chart out their frequency response, and they can all be within say .5dB from 20Hz to 20kHz. But then you go play an audio source through them and I guarantee none of them will sound the same. Which one sounds "right"? That's like asking somebody which is the right guitar. It's subjective. Main thing-- learn your monitors, listen to stuff you like the mixes of through them, then try to make your mixes sound good through them.
That kinda pisses me off. I've been mislead all these years. Get better monitors.... better equals way more money, and, like Charger pointed out, a different sounding monitor. Then your back to square one again, just at a higher price point. I've been putting back some cash, a little at a time, for some DYN Audio monitors..... thinking to myself 1) they are the best I've ever heard 2) they are way better than my cheap ones 3) anything I do using them will be much easier to do. And others.... but horseshit to all of it.
Buying monitors is like buying a sound system of any kind. Get a name brand monitor, the size speaker you want, that sounds best to you. And, your done.
Speaking of.... My little listening station is small. I think 5 inch monitors are plenty for the small room I'm in. But anyway, I have a set of the first Behringer Truth monitors (8"). I have hard wood floors in my living room, so I was drinkin and, I put those in their to jam too. Holy shit they sound good. They will absolutely make your ears bleed even from a distance. But at, on the low side of the volume control, regular listening levels, they sound fantastic. I think they were around #300 or so for the pair back then. I could be wrong on the price, but they were way cheaper than anything in the same size speaker range. I'm amazed at how good they sound, after all these years. However, they have been very touchy in the noise, area. If you turn down the volume all the way, you can hear a hum. And they are touchy about anything near them electronic, even with balance connections.
I
To me, when something claims to be "transparent" it means that it doesn't change the sound in any manner other than its intended purpose. In other words, if you have an amplifier, the wave should look the same going in and going out without any boosts or subtractions to sections of the wave form.
Another way to look at it is as a flat line. When wave forms get combined it can add to some areas and/or subtract from others. So if a device has a slight (if unintended) boost at 2k Hz, when that gets combined with the original wave form, you end up with a "coloration" of a slight boost around 2k Hz that's unwanted.
I took my passive volume knob, makie big knob, headphone amp and dac combo, 2 small mixers, apple mp3 player, cowon mp3 player, and a hot pile of shit and only determined that mainly, every single one was different sounding through the same pair of monitors. Like some more than others, right now the makie is ideal for what I need.
Want bass, krk, want detail at low volumes with lots of highs, Yamaha. Seriously, KRKs, like the rocket 5 or bigger, rock, my brothas. Don't know much about the rest. Except, on the cheap, m audio bx5 is a decent sounding set. I may get those myself. They were on sake at guitar center for 100 each around Christmas. They sound great on a key board for home use.
I have a set of the Rokit 5's. I've had them for a long time and listen to a bunch of music through them. I'm pretty happy with them for what I need. This past Christmas I bought a set of the lower priced ($100) KRK headphones to be closer to the sound of my monitors. I have a set of Sennheiser that are decent, but were different sounding in comparison to the monitors. I haven't had a whole lot of time with the new headphones, but I like them so far. Better than the Sennheiser's for me.
I don't know much about the transparent thing. I think I have to get used to what I have and compare to a given. I know my ears are different than yours, but my copy of say, Led Zeppelin IV is the same as yours. I agree with the subjective, and I like Craig's Flat line for example of transparent.
For the money, and a good sound system, and bass.... their great. I turn down the bass when I listen to Spotify. (EQ) I can tell you though, honestly, I like something about every monitor I've listened to from the cheap m-audio av40 to the Dynaudio. I like em all. I want a good monitor with a volume knob on the front. That said, the pair I'm listening too is my favorites of the day. Yamaha HS5's. Very revealing, big time. Sound great at low volumes.
Now headphones. It's your fault. You got me started. Ok, I travel for work. So when I'm on the road I listen to music in the hotels with headphones. Charger suggested the AKGk240s. I bought em. Thought they were damn good, but not what I was looking for. Went through 4 or 5, no shit, pair of headphones from $50 to $300. My favorite headphone are the first ones I bought, Charger's AKGS. I may buy a new pair just in case they discontinue it one day. Best $100 sure bet good all around headphone. And you can kill hours with them. I don't like the Senns either, I have 2 pair. ;D They sound like they are played through a tin can, kinda. Sound like shit to me. Might as well be honest. just my opinion.
Charger......
I just ab'd the passive volume control vs the big knob. I had to buy 5' cables but the the volume control was better. i could really hear the difference when compared back to back. To me, the big knob takes away from the music, compared to the control thing. So, I guess it does make a difference in a powered volume control vs a passive control.
So, I got to looking and sm pro came out with a passive monitor control unit like the big knob, with a usb connect which the big knob doesn't have. Well fuck, I got to try it. So, 3 beer and 4 puffs later, it's on the way. It's called the m patch passive 1, they make an active unit as well. I figured it wouldn't be any better the the makie, so I'm trying the passive unit. I'll decide which one sounds and works best and return the other.
By the way, the headphone amp in the big knob is worth $300 I paid for the big knob by itself. Gonna be hard for the sm pro to beat the makie.
We used KRK Rokit something-or-others for years. I thought they sounded great but I could never make a mix on them I loved. A few years back we got the Mackie HRM624s. Holy crap, they were great. Finally, the midrange sounded right, and the high end wasn't out of controls. Mixes went pretty well. But my studio partner is always looking over the fence at the neighbor's yard, so he got another set of monitors, the highly acclaimed Focal Alpha 65s. We set them up in an a/b setup with the Mackies, and... holy crap, so friggin bright. Totally different high end. Totally different midrange. Similar bass but tighter on the Focals. We've used them as a b monitor set now for about a year, and they still sound way different than the Mackies. We'll get a mix good then switch to the Focals and search for things that are super harsh and cutting. They're useful but not as main monitors.
What's my point? Just this... if you look at a frequency curve for the three monitors I just mentioned, they are all going to be within a dB of flat for their frequency range. On paper, they are roughly the same speakers. And because they are so close to flat, they are called "transparent." But there is no such thing. Every speaker sounds different. So it's just a matter of getting used to one, or liking it enough to use it repeatedly, and then sticking with it.
Each set of monitors are different, for sure. However, when the room the speakers are in is pretty dead, or close to correct, they don't sound as different as they di in, say, your living room.
At one point, I thought damn, all these monitors are so different, yet they all are suppose to be flat. I was confused. The KRK's sounded like a high end sound system speaker with lots of bass. The Yamaha sounded like the woofer wasn't working, little bass, but highs were harsh and mids were in your face. So, I put up some treatment in my office and tried to get it right as possible. I still have problems but what I did made a huge difference. Now when I compare the 2 sets of monitors, they really aren't all that different. In my office now, they seem to have come closer in the sound dept. The conclusions are the same but most people wouldn't notice much difference. The differences are much less in a treated room.
Another thing I've noticed with monitors is I can move them and it totally changes the sound in the room. Very touchy. And when you get monitors in the proper room, they don't sound quite as good as one may have thought. They sound like a monitor all the sudden. Flat and lifeless with plenty of detail. Kinda fun to listen in Mono at times as well.
I think the KRK rocket 5's I have are good speakers to listen to music on. I just don't see how they could be used to work with. They sound like the eq has been set tot he smiley face consumer level. Good treble, good bass, no mids. Yamahas, no bass, lots of mids, lots of highs. I think the combo, yamahas as your main monitors and krk's for the secondary, is a pretty good combo. Check the detail and vocal and instruments etc on the yamaha's, then check the bass on the krks and at the same time get a feel for how the mix will sound on consumer grade systems. Just my opinion of course.
I've decided not to buy the Dynaudio monitors. They are just way to expensive for my needs. I'm gonna try to find a good monitor, probably in the 6 to 7" size that I like. I tried a set of the new JBL monitors, I think lsr305, and I hated them. They get pretty good reviews though so don't take my word for it.
The thing to remember is the KRK rocket series of monitors are a entry level, cheap monitor. I would say a set of rocket 8's would be a damn good party music speaker.
Hilarious, I have the LSR305s for my home recording setup. I think they sound great but this is in my house, so I never listen to them loud. In the studio, the Mackies are still my favorites in any range I can afford, I am not a fan of the Focals but they definitely make anything overly bright in your mix painfully obvious. Our control room is pretty well dampened for mixing, and the two sets of monitors sound very different... go figure.
I may give the Makies a go. I can always pick up a set at guitar center and bring them back if I don't like them. ;D
What size do you use in your studio? Is it a big room or fairly small?
The control room is not big... maybe ten feet from the glass to the wall, and maybe 25 feet wide. It's got a ton of damping in it though, fiberglass panels, quadratic diffusers, etc.
Well, been testing and comparing the big knob to the sm pro passive unit.
SM Pro
http://www.smproaudio.com/index.php/en/products/monitor-controllers/m-patch-passive-1
Makie Big Knob
http://www.amazon.com/Mackie-Big-Knob-Desktop-Monitor/dp/B0006GPYDQ
I'll start with the Sm Pro compared to the big knob.
SM Pro- This sounds damn near the same as the passive volume control I got at Chargers recommendation. Very clean, open sounding, low end has a good punch, natural sounding. To me, the Makie darkens the sound compared to the SM Pro. The main difference is the darkened sound of the Makie, and less quality headphone amp. Dirty sounding compared to the Sm pro. I like the old school switch set up on the Pro. They work perfectly.
I've decided that the passive unit compared to the powered Makie does make a pretty big difference. The passive is way more open and not really bright, but kinda natural sounding. You can really tell how the particular song your listening to was recorded. I'm impressed, just as I was with the volume control alone.
SM Pro also makes a m patch 2, that basically is the same thing without the dac. I would get that if I were going to do it again. The reason I got this unit is for the USB connection. And, it's the only thing that's shit on the device. And it's not shit really, just under powered. Not good. It's hard to find a company that pays attention to detail 100%. luckily, I have a external dac that fixes the problem, but I wanted a all in one unit so I don't have to have both the external dac and the control knob. I must sacrifice. The cleaner sound wins and that's the most important thing anyway.
I can't get over the great sound from the headphone amp. I have a pair of AKG K701 headphones as well and it's the first amp that has the power to drive the cans to their potential. They sound incredible.
Another good thing, for me, is it's small enough to throw in the suitcase when I'm working. I can use it for the headphone amp portion while on the road. Can't wait to watch a movie and listen through my 701's. Should sound great.
Their ya go. Please send $50 to Hookbender for saving you this timely process. If your in the market. ;D
By the way, I just hooked up my yamaha in the living room, vaulted ceilings and wood floor, with the sm pro, shit. Maybe their is more difference than I thought. That or these Yamaha speakers are superior to the krk and behringer.
one question about the SM Pro Audio passive volume... is it a pot (smooth) when you turn it, or is it stepped? If I was building a passive volume control, I would use a stepped pot, and use precision resistors for each volume step. That's the most precise way to go, but also expensive, a stepped switch itself can cost $20. The cheapest way to go is just to use a precise dual potentiometer. But at their best, precise pots are about 5-10% accurate, and over time as they are used, they lose accuracy as the carbon contacts wear out.
Took the knob back to guitar center today.
It's exactly the same volume knob on the Nano patch you suggested. That part of the device is the same. Same "smooth" volume knob. As far as I can hear, exactly the same sound as well.
I can see if I were in a studio where I would agree with you on the stepped volume, but precise levels on different sources and monitors aren't a need I have. I just listen to music and I want it sounding tight, and with as little interference as possible. I think the next thing I'll get is a mid grade pretty good external dac. I kinda thought about, later on, taking out the dac in the sm pro if I can find a better one that fits and I can connect. That would be a fun process.
The more I listen to this thing the more I like it. Really clean sounding. I'm glad you suggested Sm Pro!!
Are these the ones you guys like?
AKG K240 Studio Semi-open Headphones | Sweetwater.com
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/K240S/
If I wait another two or three weeks, maybe they'll just give them away! Ha!
Yeah. I have an old pair that I love, and actually, Adorama had them on sale yesterday for $49 so I ordered a second pair. I'm looking forward to the new pair, it's got a removable cord (the point of failure on the old one, and something I've repaired on mine). I believe it has less resistance too-- the old ones were fairly quiet and needed a ton of volume to push them.