The Watering Hole

Originally posted by charger:
Decided to test some of the master limiters I had on hand to see how they perform.  They range from free to very expensive.  Here's a link to the complete test:

http://www.chargermusic.com/au  dio/masterlim/

Caveats:
There's no bass in this mix.

I'm missing lots of plugins-this barely scratches the surface.  E.g. the Sony Oxford Inflator--tried it on a friend's system, but because of the way it works, it sounded completely distorted at +9dB.  I felt like perceptually it was in the same ballpark at +3-4dB, but couldn't include it anyway.  I have nothing by PSP, Voxengo or many other vendors.  Maybe someone else wants to demo some others?

Adding 9dB to this mix is just stupid.  Which was kind of the point... to see how these things work when pushed way beyond where they should be working, and into the stupid range.

Originally posted by Craig B:
Interesting test!  In some regards they were far closer than you might have expected.  Most tended to keep the overall color, except that the Gclip seemed to change things unfavorably and the BuzzMax's seemed to have a little of a blanket over some aspects.

In order of personal preference (#1 being best) here's how I put them (after listening on a Labtec subwoofer, two satelite PC speaker system):

L3
MC3000 (impressive!)
L2
L1 / Kjaerhus_ClassicMasterLim / Massey_L2007
TLS_Pocket_Limiter
BuzMaxi1_Hard
BuzMaxi3_Aggressive
Gclip

There were small gaps between the L2 and TLS lines, a slightly wider gap between the MC3000 and L2 lines, a slightly wider gap between the TLS and the two BuzMaxi's and a pretty large gap down to the Gclip.

[Mustn't for get the "Howie" disclaimer!]  All in my opinion, of course!   :)

Originally posted by Rocket:
post up the raw .wav....I'll run it through a couple more...

What are the test parameters..??..just jack it with 9 db and ceiling it at -.3..??..

GClip is a clipper not a limiter...It's main purpose is to clip the peaks prior to a limiter to keep the limiter from working too hard...Think of it as a lawnmower for your peaks...hehe...

my rank:

Top Tier: TLs Pocket Limiter, Buzmaxi3, Kjaerhus
Middle Tier: L2, L3, Massey L2007, MC3000
Bottom Tier: L1, BuzMaxi1, GClip

What I listen for in a limiter is if it changes the mix...Typically a not so good limiter will suck the life out of a snare drum and react in a funny way to vocals...Which are your two loudest elements most of the time...So that's what a limiter is reacting to...

The L1 and Maxi1 are breaking up so bad it's ridiculous...

L3 is adding brightness...L2 is a snare sucker like no other...

good fun charger...good work....

Originally posted by Rocket:
What I have here at work in addition to yours are...

Sonic Timeworks Mastering Compressor
Voxengo Elephant
Wave Arts Final Plug

Forgot to add I love the Sony Inflator...but...This is a game it can not play...It's a vibe plug...

Originally posted by desertbluesman:
I have all three waves Limiting plugs I use L1+ mostly, and that is because I have it wired already.

I haven't even tried the others lately I am so satisfied with the the L1+ Ultra maximizer. I run it in real time inside of Sonar on my final master outs, even when recording new tracks. It stays out of the way does not use too much CPU, and it just plain works, what I hear when mixing is exactly what I wind up with after export and dithering in Sound Forge.

When I used to export unmastered tracks, the Ozone or Ultra maximizer plugs changed the frequency architecture significantly after mastering so I learned to mix using it in real time.

Every once in a while I do use Ozone 2, but mostly the Ultra maximizer L1+

Originally posted by charger:
Originally posted by Rocket:
post up the raw .wav....I'll run it through a couple more...What are the test parameters..??..just jack it with 9 db and ceiling it at -.3..??..

Will do shortly.  Basically, that's what I did, though I did adjust things like knees and release times to get some sort of decent output, where possible.

Top Tier: TLs Pocket Limiter, Buzmaxi3, Kjaerhus
Middle Tier: L2, L3, Massey L2007, MC3000
Bottom Tier: L1, BuzMaxi1, GClip

I agree.  I'm actually way impressed with the BuzMax3 then any of the Waves plugs... I put it up at the top as well.  L3 completely changed the mix, and really turned up the mids, to my ears.  That's not something I want my limiter to do.


Charger
WAV file posted:
http://www.chargermusic.com/au dio/masterlim/raw.rar

My old go-to was L2, and I've been enjoying the Massey plug, but I think the BuzMaxi3 is my new favorite. All 3 of Rocket's favorites (and two of mine) are free.

Originally posted by Rocket:
ok...cool...thanks for the raring action prior to upload...

Yeah for sure...that BuzMaxi3 is a very good limiter...

Here's the three I have available at the moment...

 Sonic Timeworks Mastering Compressor

 Voxengo Elephant

 Wave Arts Final Plug

L2 just does very unfriendly things to my drum sounds...

check out TLs's saturator too charger...

kind of similar to TapeHead...

It's good and free...

Originally posted by charger:
Interesting.  So far I'm still thinking BuzzMaxi...   You're right.  L2 kills drum transients.  I was getting these horrible mixes... turned out that L2 works, but only if I use McDSP on the kick and snare... they prevent it from hitting the Pro Tools master at, say, +6... I like to run everything into the red in Pro Tools.  

I wonder if we should redo this at say +6 to get more listenable results?

Originally posted by Rocket:
yeah...I'd imagine most people are listening and thinking WTF these all sound like shit...lol...

Maybe something a little more reasonable levelwise would be in order...

Let's do +3 and +6...

alright...that sounds good...

Yes I am

Though I do understand what you're trying to do - slam a track hard and see how the plug works in extremis.

Just none sound better than raw for me yet - and ultimately it is about how a plug works in the range of realistic settings.

Imagine doing these sort of experiments with super expensive pieces of analogue gear - can I borrow that for a minute I want to slam all faders to kill.



"Set faders to stun?" Aye, Captain!

Originally posted by Rocket:
Ok...here's the +3 and +6 links....

Now that I'm home I can include some others in the shootout...

Nomad Factory Blue Tubes BW2S-XP

Nomad Factory Blue Tubes BW2S-XP +3
Nomad Factory Blue Tubes BW2S-XP +6

Voxengo Elephant

Voxengo Elephant +3
Voxengo Elephant +6

Wavearts Final Plug

Wavearts Final Plug +3
Wavearts Final Plug +6

Kjaerhus MPL

Kjaerhus MPL +3
Kjaerhus MPL +6


Roger Nichols Finis

Roger Nichols Finis +3
Roger Nichols Finis +6

I  don't have Sonic Timeworks here at the house...hmm...I'll have to add it tomorrow...

btw...If after all this, somebody posts up a clip with the RMS at -22...  

Originally posted by charger:
Had to run over to a friend's house for a couple of these that I don't have... and after all this, I forgot to do the Kjaerhus Classic Master Limiter!  Rocket did the nicer version, though.  

BuzMaxi 2.0 (hard)
BuzMaxi2 +3
BuzMaxi 2 +6  
-----------------------

BuzMaxi 3 (aggressive)
BuzMaxi3 +3
BuzMaxi3 +6  
-----------------------

Elemental Audio Finis (pre Roger Nichols, though I think the plugin is the same)
Finis +3
Finis +6  
-----------------------

GVST GComp - this one is guesstimated because it's really a comp with a limiter section, not a standalone limiter
GComp +3  
GComp +6
-----------------------

GVST Gmax
Gmax +3  
Gmax +6
-----------------------

Waves L1
L1 +3  
L1 +6
-----------------------

Waves L2
L2 +3  
L2 +6

-----------------------
Waves L3
L3 +3  
L3 +6
-----------------------

Massey L2007 (loud/fast)
L2007 +3  
L2007 +6
-----------------------

Isotope Ozone (3? can't remember) - set to Intelligent limiting and very fast, I think it was .1.
Ozone +3  
Ozone +6
-----------------------

Peak Master... by... Steinberg?  I really don't know what this plugin is or where it's from, but it was in my buddy's VST-to-RTAS folder, so I tried it out.  Set to -2 softness. something a little weird at the beginning of this file, I think I accidentally chopped a piece of audio in PT and stuck it at the beginning of the file...
Peak Master +3  
Peak Master +6
-----------------------

TLS Pocket Limiter - I can't remember the setting I used for knee, but I think it was between 20 and 30.  This file is weird at the beginning too...
TLS Pocket Limiter +3  
TLS Pocket Limiter +6

Ok I think BuzzMaxi2 +3 is the best result of the ones I listened to - musically speaking for this track.
in my very humble opinion of course

Originally posted by Rocket:
awesome...

This is a gold mine of info...

excellent idea charger...

I'm gonna download all these and keep them in a folder along with all my speaker and mic comparison clips...

Anybody got any questions about what's going on here..??..speak now...This is how you make your recordings louder and competitive with what you hear on the radio and CD's...so you don't have to turn your volume knob way up to hear them...well, one way at least...

I think Roger Nichols bought up the Elemental plugs and just changed the interfaces to have a new logo on them...Then they came out with that "Detailer" plug which is just kinda ehh whatever, not an earth shaker...

the disclaimer...LOL...

There is no right answer...whatever sounds best to you is right...

Of course, we can all disagree with you...heh...but...at the end of the day it's what you deem to be "good"...that matters...

I meant in my very very humble and most unassuming of opinions.

I was looking for an obsequiesce picture to go with the disclaimer.

Uriah Heap wringing hands.

hehe...

I am ever so humble - I cannot even spell obsequious properly like a real gentleman.

I had to look that one up...

You know it's an obscure word when I have to google the words in the definition, to figure out what those mean too....

I just took from the rest of your post it meant apologetic in some way...

I can think of a fairly common pic around here that would suit your needs...but...I don't wanna start trouble...yet...

posh form of abuse.
The sort of word that crops up in period dramas.

The sort of scene where you can't use abusive language "that man is a f'kin' brown noser/ass kisser" -you can use posh abuse like "that man is dreadfully obsequious" at the Palace.

So when you guys are using these limiter plugs, are you running all your other plugs on the individual tracks, then running the limiter as an insert on the master fader?

Just curious how you have these set up...

They are running various limiters against a premixed raw wav file (charger has posted it earlier in the thread)

Originally posted by Rocket:
For this particular experiment we are using a track charger provided...

In a mix from scratch scenario...You would put one (or two if you're metal enough) these last in line on your master fader...

I like to mix "into it"...ie...I always have one there...Some guys like to get the mix happening and then put one on...totally a preference thing...

A side benefit of having it there is your mix will never "peak out"...So you'll be able to get your mix "hotter" without having to do as much individual track compression...

I'm speaking as a "at home/all-in-one" guy when I say that...

If you were in a professional studio/mastering environment...you would have to get the mix hot enough WITHOUT peaking to send it off to a mastering house...and you'd use a limiter to check how the mastering process would affect the final sound and make adjustments accordingly...then take it OFF before sending it out...and to impress the schmoo musicians too...heh

Originally posted by desertbluesman:
Originally posted by Divebomb Dave:
So when you guys are using these limiter plugs, are you running all your other plugs on the individual tracks, then running the limiter as an insert on the master fader?

Just curious how you have these set up...

I use a setup like this,

I individually compress those tracks that are needed. if the track refuses to behave I either edit it or hit it with the Sound Forge Wave Hammer (which is like hitting someone with a blackjack once you hit them once or twice with a blackjack they behave nicely) I send everything to a subgroup and compress everything there slightly. Then the subgroup and effects bus to the master outs, it is there that I put the Waves Ultramaximizer 1+. I set that for the 16 bit master preset but change it to 24 bits and -.03db limit. When I export the file it is mastered.

The advantage I find in mixing with a mastering plug on the finals is; the frequency architecture stays the same when exported. If I master it in Sound Forge for instance the frequency architecture (Ratio of highs to lows) changes.

Originally posted by Craig B:
I realize now that I slightly misunderstood what was going on (and went with what sounded best to me through my crappy PC speakers instead of what was making the original louder without coloring it), but I still love this type of comparison.

This has got me thinking I need to start a separate thread for some questions I have (regarding studio setup)...

Tip #1- Plug the stuff in.
Tip #2- Turn it ON.

Any other questions?

bah...

nevermind..

Originally posted by charger:
Originally posted by Divebomb Dave:
So when you guys are using these limiter plugs, are you running all your other plugs on the individual tracks, then running the limiter as an insert on the master fader?

Just curious how you have these set up...

I had the stereo track running in PT, with the plugins on a master fader.  I used this chain of plugins:

?Master Limiter?
>
L2
>
Inspector

L2 was there for one purpose only... to provide 16-bit dither from the 24-bit file.  I set the dither to 16 bit/type 2/normal, and kept the volume at 0 and the output at 0.  I didn't use the dither in any of the M/Ls, if it was offered.

Inspector was there so I could visually check if it seemed something weird was happening.  I checked two mixes against the same thing in Wavelab, to make sure Inspector wasn't changing the tone at all, and to make sure Pro Tools wasn't doing anything different to the audio... I was able to null my two test samples, L2 and BuzMaxi3, between Wavelab and Pro Tools, which means the output was sample-for-sample identical, except for a space at the beginning of the Pro Tools file of 1024 samples, which was my buffer size.

I wish you guys would discuss this stuff at night! LOL

what you talking about Willis..??..

discuss at will...

It's a forum...not AIM...

T'is night where I am.

It's always night somewhere....

And sometimes always night...

Originally posted by DreamTheaterRules:
what you talking about Willis..??..

discuss at will...

It's a forum...not AIM...  

well, I'm trying to learn something.  But you guys posts all happen during the day.  When I'm at work NOT playing with plugins and Sound Forge etc.  

Then, when I get home to try it and probably would want or need to ask a question or two, you guys aren't around.     :D

actually, my questions revolve mainly around effects chains and placement.  What effects do you use on a normal track, and what ones do you put in your master faders effects chain, etc.  What goes where. I'm looking for general rules. I already picked up on the fact that people are using multiple tracks for drums, giving one type (snare, kick) it's own channel and own set of effects/parameters.  I'm just talking general.  We'll get into drum tracks later.

Originally posted by Rocket:
sure here's something I'm working on...In between tracking drums and life....I'll get into what exactly this is later in another post I'm planning...but...here's some of my mixer window (sorry pre PT's)

 

hee's the rest...

 

here's what it sounds like right off the "board"..ie...I haven't done any post work on it...about 75% done...I have no vox mixing skills...heh...I'm open to suggestions...

http://www.rocket-music.com/sa mple.mp3

ask away...

what program is that? Not used to that screen laylout... Need to look at it for a minute or two to figure it out..

Is it strip channels ala a mixer, (vertical) with the plugins shown in the lower half of the upper section?

Originally posted by Rocket:
Nuendo...

yes...this is the mixer...

you've got the layout right...It's probably 75% Waves "R" plugins...

a guitar delay...and a reverb I'm using only for the kick in the beginning and then I automate it off after the bass kicks in....

So really no reverb at all...

It's mainly EQ and tape saturartion plugins...that's what Magneto is...and of course the ever present RComp...

so verb will be added after mixing is complete? One verb on the whole mix?

Then, you have some comps on individual tracks to get them in order, but mixed track get's compressed at the end to maximize volume as well?

Originally posted by Rocket:
you think it needs verb..???...I don't...

Why cloud it up reverb it I don't have to..??..

No need to use reverb if I don't have to...That's not a rule in my book...That's a last resort...

yup comps on tracks..most of them are set to shave 2-5 db of the peaks...some more some less...

then my master is dual mono SSL G comps...set to hit NO MORE than 2db of reduction...with the output channels split through each separate then recombined after...and through my limiter...In this case Elephant...

These tracks sound pretty ordinary without the plugs honestly...

Originally posted by DreamTheaterRules:
you think it needs verb..???...I don't...

no, I was asking "in general."

Edit:  Meaning, if you add verb, in general, you add it at the end on the whole mix, and through an aux, correct?  

When I first started messing with this stuff, I was putting the verb plug on the track, which, if I understand correctly "verb'd" the whole thing, rather than allowing a wet/dry mix like you would have if you run the verb in an aux send.

As much as possible, I try to think of these screen shots as I would a real mixer, which I know my way around fairly well.

Originally posted by Rocket:
nah...I try to avoid reverb lately...

I've been learning the beauty of the OH and room tracks for drums and how much overall presence and ambience they add...and how to ride the faders and get that nice cymbal pump going...LOTS of tricks to be played there...

I used to turn them off because I didn't know how to use them properly...

Once I got that handled my mixes really started to perk up...

There's really not a whole lot rules for me...I'm very much a knob turner...I just fiddle with stuff until it sounds good to me...I mess with plug order...different flavors of compressors etc...

Ultimately I keep ending up with the "standard" Waves plugs because, they just work...

edit....always on an aux...never on the track itself...

   quote: edit....always on an aux...never on the track itself...

just verb? or comp and everything else?

I don't know what "OH and room tracks" means... sorry

Originally posted by Rocket:
any thing that is an "effect"...reverb-delay-phaser  -chorus....goes on an aux...for me...unless it's a very specialized type thing...That I'll never be able to use with anything else...that saves CPU power mainly...being able to share the effect...

Like in this tune there is a "phone voice" effect applied to the vocals...and the HI VOX track...is delayed to hell and back...so that's on the track itself...cuz..I won't be able to use it for anything else...

Putting a verb on the aux and sending a small amount of master to it will sometimes give a glueing effect or make everything sound like it's in the same room...

I'm just not a big verb fan anymore...I used to be  though...

OH and room tracks...yeah...very important...something you'll discover once you get your feet wet...IEG and others would always tell me..."yeah your close keep working on it"...and I'd get pissed...work on what..???..and I'd get no answer...but really it's a LONG trial and error thing...there is no rules and after a while you just start to learn how to do things and you get better and better....It's not a skill set somebody can explain in words...You have to experience it to get it...I'm nowhere near "good"...at least in my book...but I'm closer than I was a year ago...

Originally posted by desertbluesman:
Originally posted by DreamTheaterRules:
One verb on the whole mix?  

Not a chance of that here, some folks like to put a wash on the mix with a verb, but I only like it on certain things. Snare, guitar, piano, organ, vocals, any lead instrument. Never on kick, never on toms, or bass, and never but never on cymbals.

I only use one verb (usually the Waves IR1 on the rhyman preset, row F I think) I put that on one bus, and send everything to that one verb in varying degrees.

I ain't into effects much, but a little verb is absolutely necessary. I do use a slight chorus on some things but so slight as you'd never notice it was there, and a little delay on the lead guitars, again ever so slight.

I am mostly into refining my EQ'in skills in the mix, that is the most important effect there is. Frequency architecture is the secret to a good mix.

Originally posted by charger:
OH=Overheads
Room=Room mics

I get all of the ambience of my drums out of the overhead mics... add compression, and the room gets very big.  

However, I record my guitars pretty dry, and my sovtek is reverbless, so I'll often throw a reverb on an aux track.  Delay as well, if I use it, it goes on an aux.  This gives you the advantage of sending different amounts of whatever tracks you want to send to that aux track... say more reverb on a clean guitar, and less on a distorted guitar.  Also controlling their panning, etc.  And then, of course, you have a volume control specifically for that reverb/delay/whatever, and you can pull it down when you realize, as usual, that it's too much.  With a reverb like Ambience, you can use quite a bit and it really sounds more like space than reverb.  That's not always the case though.

I don't think that mix Rocket posted needs any reverb... it sounds like there's already a bunch there in the individual tracks!

Never put reverb on the whole mix, unless the whole mix is, say, solo classical guitar or something.

I use the Waves Ultramaximizer 1 + on my master outs on every recording, what comes out the other end is an already mastered track. So when I listen to any mix during the final mix stage (well if there is ever a final mix that is) what comes out after bouncing the Multi track file to its stereo .wav file is exactly what I heard when mixing.

Here is how it goes, I send every track to one subgroup which has the Timeworks compressor on it. I compress there lightly, and then send that and my reverb sub out to the Master outs. It is amazing how nice that works. I also have the Ultramaximizer 2 and 3 but my best luck is with the 1+

I use only one reverb, the Waves IR1 with all of the Waves Impulses (I use Rhyman Row F or the farthest one away from the stage). Other effects I use lightly on each track. I usually send the vocals, guitar tracks, the organs and piano's, the snare and the cymbals (sometimes the cymbals) to the Reverb using one aux send control and that never more than 10% or minus 10db or whatever the send says, everything else goes through dry of any effects unless it is per track. The tracks I use reverb on all go to the master dry as well from Subgroup as well as wet from the Reverb Aux return.