The Watering Hole

Couple short test clips after spending some time repositioning the mics. I'm trying to get something thicker than before but with the same level of detail.

Both clips are the same mic setups, just different amp settings. The first was something with more hair/grease, the second is thicker, with less zing/grease.

Clip One / Download

Clip Two / Download

they sound very good indeed - very clear.

if it were me, I'd want more in the lower mids to beef it up a bit and balance it out - both clips are a bit upper mid focused but retain a low thump, almost like there's a slight scoop (not in a bad way, it sounds good, very much in keeping with the style - just a preference thing) - w/o a mix to go by it's hard to say. more lower mids might just be mud.

what mics are you using these days?

Great advice, thanks, was what I'm looking for. :) Did you happen to favor either tone? It's funny how they sound similar yet I really changed the settings a good bit for each clip. I think I like the second/two tone more and can tweak from here now...at least for LEAD playing/single notes that is.

This is the setup up, only don't mind the mic positions - these are the the old spots (used on that last tune I posted). They've since been moved further out and angled in of all things, but that's what seemed to work to thicken/warm. The upper left speaker is a Heritage Greenback w/MD421 II on it and the lower right speaker is an anny G12H30 with an e906. I know, get an sm57 in there, right, lol? Those sound even more scoopy IMO though, kinda why I moved away from it.




As for the tracking and adding some low mids, I'd LOVE to try that, not eactly sure how to do it other than maybe post EQ. These were straight forward samples...guitar (Charvel/Alder) > amp > cab > mics > Cubase w/no post EQ other than verb and a high pass filter (60hz). I guess I can try upping the bass knob or the resonance knob, but that just may add muck as you said. Wel'll see, it's pretty close to start with, should only get better.

EDIT: DUH, stupid fuck, lol...monday morning brain lapse....I have an MXR 10 band in the loop, I sure as hell CAN add some low mids!! Maybe a db or two of 250hz and 500hz....those were the two bands I added a dash of on that last tune 'after the fact' and it worked well (thanks for the advice AGAIN, lol).

FWIW, these two tones/tunes are the type of lead sounds I've been drooling over latetly. I know, prolly way out of reach considering all the variables, but if I can get in the 'ballpark', I'd be tickled to death! Hey, maybe if I get one of those kempler things I could have it right at my fingertips...there's a thought...because the "Soul Caravan" tone in particular is just so big, mean, fat and nasty, I think my amp just can't get that 'dark.'  :(

Sample One / Download

Sample Two / Download

can't say I liked one over the other, I liked both - would just depend on what worked for the tune.

I'm back to sm57 lately and getting irritated again... heh, ready to be in the mic market I think. MD421 has always been on the list... not sure what I'm looking for though. been using the redwirez cab impulses to get an idea about mics and what I like.

yeah, that soul caravan tone is pretty insane - killer lower mids... the other one you're actually pretty close to, it's just got smoother upper mids - could probably get there with a little high end roll-off.

yeah what sheep said...  :)

Those tones are really awesome though.  I wouldn't change much of anything - just slight tweaks at a time I guess.

Love those Vinnie tunes, will have to pick up that album.  Especially Soul Caravan, I love when he lets himself play more loosely/free form like that.  

And yeah again on what sheep said - you are in the ballpark for the first one, slight lower mid boost and roll off some highs (I would do the roll off in the mix tho).

Really you may be in the realm of post EQ, just slight tweaks to fit the mix.  That base tone you have is stellar.

Thanks again for all the input! At least I know one thing, the mic experiment was a success. I wanted a thicker, meatier tone while still being detailed and round and I think I got it now. I liked what I had before well enough, it was balanced and articulate but it was missing the punch. And again, this is all my just being anal, lol, because honestly, as long as I don't hear mud, buzz or fizz in my tone, I'm golden and can live with anything really. I still would love to nail that tone in the Vin clips - there's something going on in the mids I can't explain, a certain "AW" or subtle squawk quality to the initial pick attack. I read he used a DSL 2000 and Engl of some sorts for this album. His tone is soooo good these days compared to where he came from.

Sheep, have you ever sampled the e906? I recall you saying you like the 609 but if you haven't, try the 906, it's an awesome cab mic....and funny thing, the 421 and e906 sound very similar! I've placed them both on my G12H30 before and could barely tell the diff.  :)


And you both may be onto something with the post EQ idea. I tried leaving the settings as is and simply bumping up 250hz and 500hz with my MXR EQ in the loop (and a little low pass in Cubase to taper the highs), and even with surgical level slider tweaks, it gets noticeably rumbly instead of what I was hoping for. I recorded some sloppy stuff of that to be sure (maybe tomorrow I'll like it, lol). So then I also took my other clip from yesterday and simply applied the same EQ tweaks to it and it does sounds better? Maybe I'm nuts.  :o

EQ'd In Loop Clip / Download

Mic Test Two w/post eq / Download


I'll up the rest of the LP tomorrow morning at work, Paul. If you like these two tracks, you'll like the rest. Hard to believe it's the same dude that put out the meticulous "Minds Eye." He hasn't become quite as relaxed a player as Greg Howe has matured into, but he is definitely more loose and spontaneous now yet the lines are still intricate. He's not so "calculated" in his approach today, plus, as you heard, his tone is pretty incred now. Pssst, Paul Gilbert, you listening?!  :P

hmm, methinks you linked the same clip twice ;)

shit....copy/paste = mistake. Thanks

Yeah I like the Post Eq'd one, I compared it to the earlier clip and it has a nice subtle beef added to it, without any mud.  The loop EQ didn't sound bad, but you are more limited there compared to what you can do post.  I am like you though, I just want to twist the knobs on the amp til it's right, and not do any post.  However I have hit that limit with my Krankenstein, I've pretty much got it the best I can at the amp, even to crazy subtle differences of a tic or 2 on the channel volume to find the sweetest spot.

I think you are there.  Go record :)

hmm, 906 - I'll check that one out!

I'm also looking at an AKG C214.

ears aren't awake yet, I'll check out those clips in a little bit. ;)

Good - I think you'd like it, especially if you A/B it directly with a 57 as I did when I first got it home...I literally began sarcastically laughing at the 57 as I placed it back in its case and tossed it in a box. A great mic obviously and maybe I just grew tired of it, but yeah, I prefered the 906 instantly when playing back sample scratch tracks of each. The only other one I've been tempted to try is the Heil PR40, which does show up used around here every now and then, already missed one chance to pick it up on the cheap.

The clips, man, the more I re-check the new clip today where I added the subtle low mid EQ tweaks on the MXR in the loop, the more I like that tone FOR LEADS. It's when I played chords like that where I heard a dash of woof. Anyway, plenty of experimenting ahead, no rush for me, and again, the main thing was that I found a better overall tone with the mic positions. The amp tweaking, EQing, etc, is all the simple part now.


KrankZilla...check your PM's for the rest of the tracks...

I'm a fan of the 906 but don't have one.  It has a nice open sound to it, more accurate than it's 609 relatives, closer to a 409 than they are.  I found this comparison - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/69350-sennheiser-409-609-906-audio-clips.html

Kabala — Jan 31, 2012
Good - I think you'd like it, especially if you A/B it directly with a 57 as I did when I first got it home...I literally began sarcastically laughing at the 57 as I placed it back in its case and tossed it in a box. A great mic obviously and maybe I just grew tired of it, but yeah, I prefered the 906 instantly when playing back sample scratch tracks of each. The only other one I've been tempted to try is the Heil PR40, which does show up used around here every now and then, already missed one chance to pick it up on the cheap.

The clips, man, the more I re-check the new clip today where I added the subtle low mid EQ tweaks on the MXR in the loop, the more I like that tone FOR LEADS. It's when I played chords like that where I heard a dash of woof. Anyway, plenty of experimenting ahead, no rush for me, and again, the main thing was that I found a better overall tone with the mic positions. The amp tweaking, EQing, etc, is all the simple part now.


KrankZilla...check your PM's for the rest of the tracks...

I use the Heil PR40 all the time... IMO 4-8" away, it kills everything else.

charger — Jan 31, 2012I use the Heil PR40 all the time... IMO 4-8" away, it kills everything else.

That's what I've been hearing for several years now, they're great. I'm still kicking myself for not grabbing a used one a few months ago, think it was around $230. If you have any crunchy clips with it, I'd love to hear them!


LAST clip for a while with this shit, I've got so many other things I wan't to do. I gave the EQ in the loop one more fair shot at tweaking in some low mids to help round out the tone without adding mud. Reason being I wan't to be as close to 'it' as possible so when the time comes I can get by with minimal post EQ'ing of the guitars.

This is the thickest tone I think I've ever tracked, but I don't think it would clutter up a mix. Raw amp (and eq pedal) here, nada post eq except the same old low pass at 12k that I've always done. It's similar to the first clip but doesn't have the same teeth to it and there's a hint more low mids.

Mic Test Three / Download

Also, get a ribbon mic in there (even a cheap one--I use a few Chinese variants and they all sound passable).  Nothing emphasizes mids and low mids like a ribbon... mix in to taste.