16 posts
Okay, after using the cheap Line6 Toneport that came with Gearbox Gold for months thanks to a fried Presonus Firebox, I've decided to upgrade. I didn't want anything USB or Firewire again, so PCI was the only other way. I've narrowed it down to two choices.
The
M-Audio Delta 1010 PCI Audio Interface.
Or the
Echo Layla 3G PCI Audio Interface.
This will be for recording guitars both direct and with a microphone. What do you guys think?
I'll be watching this. Can I add a question? Well, yes I guess I can. ;)
What are the advantages and disadvantages of PCI vs USB or Firewire? I have the Mbox, but with this new PC I want to know before I set everything up. If you tell me there's no latency with PCI, I'll probably dump the Mbox in a firesale hurry. I know I haven't done much digital recording, but when I did, it kind of freaked me out hearing the latency while trying to play along with the track.
Howie all will have some latency, but Firewire and pci usually have the least.
Juan I have a E-Mu 1820 card which I really like, has onboard effects which really help in tracking, as they can be added post send to the audio software, so dry track a lead but monitor it with delay, chorus etc. The unit translates well, and the onboard preamps don't completely suck, but I use outboard preamps into the line ins on the unit.
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/EMu-1820-Computer-Recording-System?sku=242511
It doesn't matter what you get, although, I have to say those are some fairly old interfaces you are looking at. Are you worried about price and therefore looking at old stuff? I have been mightily impressed with the stuff Presonus has been coming out with lately... tons of options in all kinds of price ranges. I really dig their built-in preamps... at that price point, I think they have the best preamps available. The Focusrite stuff is also interesting to me. Of course, it goes without saying their pres would be nice. But they also have some killer features. The one caveat is I have never used one, so I have no clue how they are in actual use.
Of course, I also love M-Audio because I can run Pro Tools on it...
And that Toneport is going to be great to hold onto because you can then run the Pod Farm plugin... IMO the best plugin of 2008. I have never had as much fun recording guitar as I do now... it's got to the point where even when we record an amp, we always take a DI as well.
Also, re PCI vs. Firewire vs USB... USB 1.1 is adequate for recording 2-4 channels. You really shouldn't be getting much latency. If you are, something else is wrong. However, USB allows all kinds of interrupts, which is why though USB2 is theoretically faster than Firewire, it never seems to work anywhere near as well. Firewire is, however, my method of choice these days. It's not "faster" than PCI... but it doesn't have to be. And it's a standard that will always be there... unlike PCI, which some boards don't even provide anymore (PCIe being the new standard). You can get 24 channels of 24-bit audio in and out over firewire easily -- we do this all the time. The advantage of Firewire to me is portability. It's nice to be able to unplug your interface and take it on a trip, to a studio, to a rented room, etc. Or to hook it up to your laptop for headphone mixing, etc. Having now gone firewire, I am a true convert and would never go back to PCI. Just remember, motherboards often have crappy built-in firewire. If you are going Firewire, buy yourself a $20 PCI or PCIe FW card. I bought the cheapest one at my local shop, and it has worked perfectly.
In order of preference, I'd go:
Firewire 400 or 800
PCI
USB 2
USB 1
I'll let the guys with more recent experience do most of the talking, but I will say that I have the Layla 24/96 (the predecessor to the 3G) which is PCI and I still love it. Harv (Dave? DBM? :D ) has one as well. Since I bought it, I've added a Presonus MP-20 and Focusrite Twin-Trac as pre's.
Just for fun, I thought I'd add my setup which makes recording at home (yeah, when I do it! ;) ) easier if you have eight inputs and outputs.
Inputs 1 & 2 - From mixer subs 3 & 4 - This is the recording source
Inputs 3 & 4 - From mixer subs 1 & 2 - This is the main mix
Inputs 5 & 6 - Direct cable connect - This provides the best link to an individual source when needed
Inputs 7 & 8 - Unused
Outputs 1 & 2 - Sent to the headphone mains - To monitor the recording
Outputs 3 & 4 - Sent to the headphone auxs - To monitor the main mix
Outputs 5 & 6 - Sent to mixer channels 3 & 4 - For output to the PA speakers
Outputs 7 & 8 - Sent to the monitors
This setup allows me to input a stereo mix (backing track, others playing live, etc.) as well as recording an individual source in stereo through the board (or direct if I need the highest quality). Since this is kept this way I don't need to swap cables around and, of course, I can always breakup each pair to record two sources in mono. You can definitely get by with just two inputs if that's all you have. I love my output setup though since I have a headphone amp that allows you to blend two sources. This way I can send the backing track and the recorded material in stereo to the headphones while also sending the signal to my JBL EON's (the general PA output) and my monitors (for when mixing a recording). I like it because, once it's setup, you don't have to swap cables around.
they just today sent me another download discount e-mail on Pod Farm and the model packs...
CraigBert — Jan 26, 2009I'll let the guys with more recent experience do most of the talking, but I will say that I have the Layla 24/96 (the predecessor to the 3G) which is PCI and I still love it. Harv (Dave? DBM? :D ) has one as well. Since I bought it, I've added a Presonus MP-20 and Focusrite Twin-Trac as pre's.
Yep my Layla 24/96 has been working trouble free since 2003. The drivers are bulletproof. Rock solid. A friend of mine has the 3G and it works just the same with better converters
Echo also has a nice firewire 24/192 interface called the AudioFire 12, it has 12 ins-and 12 outs, I would consider this myself if I ever upgrade.
charger — Jan 26, 2009It doesn't matter what you get, although, I have to say those are some fairly old interfaces you are looking at. Are you worried about price and therefore looking at old stuff?
Not really worried about price, just wanted something PCI and simple (not 10+ inputs that I will never use) and that's all I found that looked good. I do still have an EMU 1820M setup that I haven't used in years but I was never a big fan of that setup. Maybe because I didn't know anything about recording then...so I might give it a try again. Also, this new USB interface has my attention at the moment.
Lexicon I-ONIX U42S
If you are recording direct and wanting to monitor in your DAW with fx (Amplitube, Speaker cab impulse) as you record, I would steer clear of USB for the reasons charger mentioned... Not even sure Firewire will handle it, although the bulk of the burden is definitely on your CPU. Whatever you get, definitely put it thru it's paces before your return period is up.
One thing I would advise is researching the track record of the companies you are choosing from in providing driver updates. I use a MOTU 2408 mk2, heh it's 9 years old I guess now, and it's been flawless, *BUT* MOTU will not provide drivers for Vista or W7, (they want me to buy their new core card for $295) so I am fairly stuck in terms of my choices when I upgrade my PC. Not that I want to go to Vista, lol...
BTW, my current setup is recording my amp's preamp signal and monitoring going thru Rocket's cab sims. I have to freeze a bunch of tracks to get my latency low enough (it basically has the same latency as playing thru a pod when I do this) but my computer is fairly old, I lust for a Q660 or better quad processor machine these days...
Firewire, for me, has been great. Note that I am using Pro Tools, so I can't say how things translate to other platforms. I run 4 or 5 instances of Pod Farm, each mono input and stereo output, usually with dual amps in each plugin. By my calculation, one instance of Pod Farm takes about 3-4% CPU (2.6 GHz Intel Core2 Duo), so running 4-5 instances, I am usually at about 15-20% CPU, give or take, depending on the complexity of the tone and FX. As far as Firewire vs. PCI latency, I haven't seen it. I record guitar at 128 samples of latency, so at 44.1/24-bit that is, I think, 2.9 ms. I used to be very skeptical about Firewire, but it's held up. In the studio we run 18 channels in over Firewire, and never have a hiccup. So from my experience, it's solid.
Firewire is absolutely fine, I have had no problems with the fireface 800 and I have had it for three years and it has been used on at least 5 different computers in that time with no problem, laptops and desktops
Tech note -
It is not simply about the speed of firewire - I have always used it with 400Mbit/s pc cards which is slower than USB2 at 480.
Running at 800 not surprisingly doubles that - but I have yet to find it to be an issue - even with 8 concurrent analog inputs and lots of tracks etc.
the PC/CPUs get swamped first.
400Mbit/s is 50 MB/sec, which is a huge bandwidth compared with a standard 32bit audio wav internally which, and I have just checked, is about 10 MB/min.
firewire 400 has 300 times capacity.
At 800 it would be 600 times
obviously you don't want to be close to capacity - but you can have a LOT of tracks in a DAW before you would notice a problem due to communication speeds over firewire.
USB can also run at this capacity - on average.
It is not a capacity issue.
The difference is protocol.
USB is fundamentally asynchronous in design - which means schedule this please - when you can get around to it.
Firewire is synchronous - which means do this now unless you have a damn good reason to do something else.
With a DAW you are looking for as close to real time execution as possible - all the time.
Bingo. USB lets any and everyting interrupt it, which is why you don't see many USB2 multi-input interfaces around.
Well, what would be a good firewire interface? I only need about 4 inputs really. I have a good mic pre so XLR inputs aren't really necessary.
Well, I have the EMU 1212M which is a mastering card. It has the same D/A converters as Pro Tools and has every connection under the sun!
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/EMu-1212M-v2-PCI-Digital-Audio-System?sku=241213
Works great for me as I only record two tracks at a time.
My son got the MOTU 8Pre http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/MOTU-8-Pre-Audio-Interface-?sku=240408 He loves it cuz he can record 8 tracks at once. They are recording thier CD as we speak using this, complete with all live drums. It sounds really good, too. Just about any card will work as long as it has good converters, the main thing is the software you will be using. Plus, get good mics. Good luck bro... ;)
cgtrox 8-)
not a recommendation here... but I use a Mackie Onyx 400f.
it sounds great (really great, actually).. but the drivers/support blow/s.
been quite a while since I checked on drivers though, possible they've improved. I doubt it.
anyways, been working fine for the last year - so I'm not touching it ;)
wouldn't really recommend it unless you're up for the hassles of getting it working.