24 posts
Ok I like reading the info posted on this topic. What Id like, if possible, is for the gurus to break it down even further. I do not have much experience recording at home and have only recently gotten a good mic. Can you guys tell me how you get started on a project. Id like to learn how to get a great recorded mic'ed amp tone and a good direct (modelled) tone etc. I just dont realy know the basics. If you have the time that would be great. Dont get me wrong, I have done it, and with good results, but I think i've had lucky accidents so far. Does that even make sense? Oh well, whatever you guys could do would be great.
bon
I'd plus 1 this.
I've never been able to get a decent sound from a mic'd amp, I know fuck all about post production.
With what I've just brought, I think I should have enough to do a semi decent job, but it is a steep learning curve, if you've rarely tread the path.
well, while I am still no where near an expert, here some pointers.
Here are 5 key points I use when micing or going direct. Your mileage may very as we all like different things in tone.
1. reduce your gain from where you normally play at for your tone when recording. I know this sounds odd, but it does work, especially when you double track or quad track your parts.
this can be anywhere from a 10% decrease to as much as 25% depending on style and number of parts you are tracking.
1a. there are so many different ways to mic an amp its hard to really say there is one right way. I typically use 2 mics when tracking, but for simplicity sake, I will talk about what I do when only using one mic. I like to have the mic at the nipple ring position at 1" off the grill cloth of the cab with is about 2" from the speaker.
2. after tracking watch how much build up you have in the 85hz to 240hz alot will build up especially around the 130hz area. Put a spectrum analyzer on your guitar track(s) SPAN works great, you will notice a spike in this area and you will hear the tone to be muddy or fighting itself against the mix. remember your are sharing this space with toms, kick, bass and snare, at a minimum.
I usually dial out around 2 to 3 db at 130ish with a q of 2.4 might need more might need less.work with until you don't hear the gtrs fighting the other instruments in that area.
3. add a little bite to the eq at 2k and 5k not alot usually no more than 2db with a Q in the tight range so 3.0 or up to 6.4
4. compress the track(s) I go for a 3:1 with a fast attack and medium release say 10 to 20msec attack and 50 to 100msec release. you want to trim 1 to 2 db off in reduction. This will firm up the track.
5. give your tracks alot of space in the stereo spectrum, I pan my primary rhythm gtr tracks far left and far right. fills, secondary rhymth gtr tracks then go in the middle of the sweep area for each side. say 9 to 10:30 and 2 to 3:30.
Hope this helps.
I am having some fairly major dental work done the next couple weeks, when that is finished and I am done with the promo work for the album, if ppl want I will do a tutorial on a song start to finish.
It will only be screen captures and audio as I don't have a video camera, but if people think it will help them I will do it.
Sounds cool, Rich. Good luck with the dental work. I hate that shit, but it has to be done.
Ask for ruffies. :D Maybe some Seconal
unfortunately I have adverse affects to most high grade pain meds, so it will probably be the same ole ibuprofen as in the past.
Thanks for that Rich, I've actually printed it out.
The tutorial sounds great.
Ligerborn — Aug 28, 2008well, while I am still no where near an expert, here some pointers.
Here are 5 key points I use when micing or going direct. Your mileage may very as we all like different things in tone.
1. reduce your gain from where you normally play at for your tone when recording. I know this sounds odd, but it does work, especially when you double track or quad track your parts.
this can be anywhere from a 10% decrease to as much as 25% depending on style and number of parts you are tracking.
1a. there are so many different ways to mic an amp its hard to really say there is one right way. I typically use 2 mics when tracking, but for simplicity sake, I will talk about what I do when only using one mic. I like to have the mic at the nipple ring position at 1" off the grill cloth of the cab with is about 2" from the speaker.
2. after tracking watch how much build up you have in the 85hz to 240hz alot will build up especially around the 130hz area. Put a spectrum analyzer on your guitar track(s) SPAN works great, you will notice a spike in this area and you will hear the tone to be muddy or fighting itself against the mix. remember your are sharing this space with toms, kick, bass and snare, at a minimum.
I usually dial out around 2 to 3 db at 130ish with a q of 2.4 might need more might need less.work with until you don't hear the gtrs fighting the other instruments in that area.
3. add a little bite to the eq at 2k and 5k not alot usually no more than 2db with a Q in the tight range so 3.0 or up to 6.4
4. compress the track(s) I go for a 3:1 with a fast attack and medium release say 10 to 20msec attack and 50 to 100msec release. you want to trim 1 to 2 db off in reduction. This will firm up the track.
5. give your tracks alot of space in the stereo spectrum, I pan my primary rhythm gtr tracks far left and far right. fills, secondary rhymth gtr tracks then go in the middle of the sweep area for each side. say 9 to 10:30 and 2 to 3:30.
Hope this helps.
I am having some fairly major dental work done the next couple weeks, when that is finished and I am done with the promo work for the album, if ppl want I will do a tutorial on a song start to finish.
It will only be screen captures and audio as I don't have a video camera, but if people think it will help them I will do it.
Thanks for this. Now to see if I can actually apply it. I'll be asking more questions if that is ok.
Anyone have anything to add.
What, exactly, are you trying to do, and what equipment do you have to do it?
For what it's worth, the only time that I am able to record a "good" guitar sound by micing an amp is by making sure the amp is playing "loud". Play it too quiet (with distortion or high gain), and you will suffer from the "buzzies" (that horrible very thin buzzing guitar sound). Really good stuff happens to a guitar amp when you crank it up. The Marshall DSL50 that I used to have sounded fantastic (and recorded nicely) when cranked up, but when playing it at bedroom levels it sounded like shit to be honest.
Jon,
IMHO, (and from all I've read about speaker design and contruction) I think a lot of the reason for that (FM curves, tubes being pushed, and all other variables aside) is that most speakers are designed for higher volume and don't really come into their own until they are turned up. I did some testing of guitar speakers with a higher end stereo system as a source. Something I KNOW sounds good at any volume. I compared the sound at lower volumes with my home speakers and with guitar speakers. I know guitar speakers aren't flat, etc. But, my tests show that CLEARLY, these speakers need to be moving some air before they sound good.
One solution, believe it or not, is to try a smaller, lower powered speaker. I have heard a Weber 8" speaker sound very good at lower volumes, because it's thin, light cone, smaller magnet, etc. make it "work" at much lower volumes than a big heavy duty 12.
Additionally, unlike say a home speaker which is designed to sound pretty much the same at any volume, and FIGHT breakup, a big part of the sound of the 12's we use are the way the cone is designed to break up. Example: At low volumes, my greenback, Wizard and Guvernor all sound a bit different, but a lot the same. The more you turn them up, the more apparent the differences are. The Greenback really starts to take on that character that a greenback has, once you turn it up a bit, and so do the others. When you turn the up loud, it's EASY to hear and identify each speaker almost immediately. There's a certain snap that a speaker has when it's working, that does not occur at low volumes.
I've been looking into this for a few years now. IMO, low wattage tube amps and smaller speakers are the best way to record at lower volumes. If not, you need an ISO box for your big amps and speakers, a VERY tolerant wife, or to be single. :)
Jon, I think that might be somewhat particular to Marshall amps. I don't think they sound all that great at low volumes, though they usually sound awesome turned up. Unless I need feedback, I've been doing a lot of recording at fairly low volumes lately, and it's working out. The Sovtek sounds good at low-to-moderate volume, the only trick with that amp is turning the master all the way up, then using the pre-gain as the volume. The Spider Valve is just an easy amp to record. Even gained up, I rarely turn it up louder than I would be comfortable sitting right in front of it. The Spider Valve also has a tremendous amount of bass, so I think when you record it quietly, the huge low end is able to compensate for the typical low-volume, thin amp sound.
I'm not as much of a fan of the SM57 alone sound lately. I find that the guitar sounds I like are requiring a second mic to augment the 57. Usually, we use a ribbon mic. That balances out the peakiness of the 57 a bit. Sometimes you want that brightness of the 57 to cut through the mix, but the ribbon mic adds warmth and life to the sharpness of the 57. Having the two at ypur fingertips at mix time (especially if they are correctly placed and in phase) makes things much easier.
That's another good point, Charger. At lower volumes, I've been using my AT2020 condensor. It works much better than the 57 for me. Cool thing is, it's a condensor but can take high SPL so if you can crank it up, it still works great.
I agree with Charger, I have to crank my marshall far louder than my other amps to get a good tone. thankfully my marshall is only a 30 watter not 100....
I also employ 2 mics pretty much all the time. although instead of a ribbon I use a Audix i5 along with a Sennheiser e609. Although I can get a tone I like pretty well by only using the e609.
I would love a good ribbon mic though,
charger — Sep 03, 2008What, exactly, are you trying to do, and what equipment do you have to do it?
ok. I am using sonar 3 producers edition. I am connecting through the xt live. I have a behringer mixer but I usually go straight through the xt live. My mic is sm58. My amps are Peavey classic 30 and I have an ampeg ss140c with celestions in it. I dont use that one because I get a crackle noise until it warms up. I have not been able to pinpoint what it is yet. My sound card is audigy 2. I am going to try to put something up this evening to hear opinions and critiques. As for what I am trying to do, I guess I want to learn how to get a good sound and know how to record/mix it well. For instance, tracking a guitar.
Have a listen if you can. Please critique.
well, its not a bad tone, it would be easy to eq to fit a mix I think.
I take it you tracked it with the delay and reverb and they aren't added in post.
My first suggestion would be to track it dry and add the fx in post, but that isn't the only way, however, it is pretty commonly used and often recommended.
Truthfully, not much else I can critique without it in a mix.
Ok Richard. I saved it incorrectly last night. Must have been the booze. Anyway, this is the way it was supposed to sound.
Rich
I did the lead dry and then added. I had read that many times before. What made you think I did it the other way? Out of curiosity.
ok sorry it took so long getting back has been a hectic weekend.
to your question,
When a clip is just a single instrument alot of times people simply play with their effects on. Either way isn't really incorrect, just a different approach, as if recorded dry you have the ability to change your mind, where if tracked with effects thats what you have unless you retrack it.
Since I listened to it first as only the lead I assumed you had tracked it with effects.
on the mix, to me, the rhythm and lead are fighting each other for space both eq and stereo spectrum.
Some things to look at, are:
low end of the lead track, I personally would set a hi pass filter to roll off the bass at around 180, it will still be beefy enough and won't get in the way of the rhythm. Honestly in a full mix you could get away with as high as 240. but with 2 tracks 120 to 180 would work fine.
On the rhythm I would dbl track the part, and pan them out wide left and right. Do not record once and then copy and paste or clone the track cause, even panned that won't get you wide enough to give the lead the space it needs up the middle.
Without bass or percussion I think the Rhythm's tone is fine as it covers alot of the spectrum.
once you dbl track, and pan out you will find you can lower the lead a bit and probably also lower the fx mix a bit as well.
if you only want one lead and one rhythm, pan them out to at least 9 and 3 o'clock. to give it a bit more fill put a room reverb on an aux bus and then send some of the signal from the rhythm and the lead to it, but pan the send to the opposite side of the spectrum.
example:
lead is panned at 9:00 you would pan the send of the lead to full right then set the level of the send so that the lead ghosts nicely in the right speaker, not too loud just enough to feel it there.
the Rhythm is panned at 3:00 and pan the send to full left, you set the level of the send similarly as to the lead,
by setting up the reverb sends this way it will fill the parts out just enough that it won't sound overly panned, but still give each part separation in the mix.
Hope this helps,
Richard
thanks for the advice. I hope to apply it this weekend, if i get a moment. I'll let you know how I do.
Bon
I haven't forgot about the tutorial, or the forum.
It has been a super busy semester for me as I finished my Master's in Librarianship this week, ok technically it is a Master's in Library Science but it really needs to be changed cause there is no science involved...
I am planning on working on the tutorial over my holiday break as we are not going anywhere for the holidays.
it will include one short song start to finish in the process, the songs is actually done i just have to write things up and get the webpages coded.
Sweet! If I could just stop spending ALL of my evenings in the hospital, I absolutely WILL build my recording PC over the Christmas break. Plus some pedals.