52 posts
Alright...
So, if you don't know, I am a contracted government employee... My paychecks ultimately come from Government funds...
So all this talk of shutdown has a possible profound effect on my family.
So, using only your personal opinion, not a website with a bunch of facts that may or may not be biased, can someone please explain to me why it is that the Democrats refuse to negotiate in any way with the House of Representatives with regard to delaying the Affordable Healthcare Act?
In keeping with my own call for opinions, and not biased crap, while I have a vested interest in the government being funded, I have to say I agree with the House of Representatives on this one...
There is argument that the Affordable Healthcare Act is law of the land. Now, as far as I know, don't all laws get made and modified by the legislative branch? Senate Democrats say that they were elected to uphold the Act. The same could be said for the House Republicans, that they were elected into office to stand against the Affordable Healthcare Act...
So why is it that no agreement can be made? Why can't we do away with the individual mandate (Really the only part of "Obamacare" that I disagree with)? Why can't we put enforcement of the act on hold for a year for everyone, just as we have allowed a one year reprieve for corporations?
Is the Senate merely flexing their muscle because they know they have the Republicans backed in to a corner, and there is really nothing they can do? Doesn't that make the Senate, and the President alike something along the lines of a Political Bully?
Does the Senate not realize that just as they were elected to uphold the law, so were the members of the House elected to defend against it? To spit on the house is just like spitting on every person that voted to elect the republican members of the house? We are one nation of people, not a nation of politicians...
I just don't get it...
Why would my Government, in this supposed Democracy, force me to buy something I don't want? And then penalize me if I elect not to participate?
All we need to do is come to an agreement that the act is completely optional for all citizens... If you want it, go get it... Just like unemployment, just like welfare, just like foodstamps... But if you don't want it, that's your choice...
That's freedom... The land of the free that we live in, freedom should be the only choice to fight for. Republicans are fighting for freedom, just like they were elected to do. Why is that so bad?
Forcing me to buy something I don't want, then penalizing me if I don't... That is the exact opposite of freedom. That's borderline communism...
Remember, I don't want a bibliography of informative sites... Just your opinion... Why do you believe in your convictions? Lets make this a real debate based on what exists in our own brains, not what we are fed by biased media...
Divebomb — Oct 01, 2013Alright...
So, if you don't know, I am a contracted government employee... My paychecks ultimately come from Government funds...
So all this talk of shutdown has a possible profound effect on my family.
So, using only your personal opinion, not a website with a bunch of facts that may or may not be biased, can someone please explain to me why it is that the Democrats refuse to negotiate in any way with the House of Representatives with regard to delaying the Affordable Healthcare Act?
In keeping with my own call for opinions, and not biased crap, while I have a vested interest in the government being funded, I have to say I agree with the House of Representatives on this one...
There is argument that the Affordable Healthcare Act is law of the land. Now, as far as I know, don't all laws get made and modified by the legislative branch? Senate Democrats say that they were elected to uphold the Act. The same could be said for the House Republicans, that they were elected into office to stand against the Affordable Healthcare Act...
So why is it that no agreement can be made? Why can't we do away with the individual mandate (Really the only part of "Obamacare" that I disagree with)? Why can't we put enforcement of the act on hold for a year for everyone, just as we have allowed a one year reprieve for corporations?
Is the Senate merely flexing their muscle because they know they have the Republicans backed in to a corner, and there is really nothing they can do? Doesn't that make the Senate, and the President alike something along the lines of a Political Bully?
Does the Senate not realize that just as they were elected to uphold the law, so were the members of the House elected to defend against it? To spit on the house is just like spitting on every person that voted to elect the republican members of the house? We are one nation of people, not a nation of politicians...
I just don't get it...
Why would my Government, in this supposed Democracy, force me to buy something I don't want? And then penalize me if I elect not to participate?
All we need to do is come to an agreement that the act is completely optional for all citizens... If you want it, go get it... Just like unemployment, just like welfare, just like foodstamps... But if you don't want it, that's your choice...
That's freedom... The land of the free that we live in, freedom should be the only choice to fight for. Republicans are fighting for freedom, just like they were elected to do. Why is that so bad?
Forcing me to buy something I don't want, then penalizing me if I don't... That is the exact opposite of freedom. That's borderline communism...
Remember, I don't want a bibliography of informative sites... Just your opinion... Why do you believe in your convictions? Lets make this a real debate based on what exists in our own brains, not what we are fed by biased media...
The opposite opinion is that the Republicans shouldn't make this something that threatens you as a gov employee, they surely don't have to.
You might not want to quote right wing media outlets for the entirety of your post when you want to steer clear of repeating what you are fed by biased media...
I don't normally chime in on political discussions (because I hate getting in arguments over politics), but I'll bite.
My opinion is that the Tea Party in the House is acting like a bunch of petulant children because they didn't get their way. You cannot reward petulant children when they act this way because they will only do it again and again and again. They keep taking our country to the brink because they can't get their way. It continues to set a very bad precedence to how things get done in this country. Right now, this shit is getting us Nowhere. My two year old, when he throws a tantrum, isn't rewarded with what he wants because he starts throwing things because he didn't get to go out. If I take him out after he throws a tantrum, he's only going to continue this behavior. The difference is these people are old enough they should understand this, yet they press on. They keep sending bills (squalling) to the Senate that stand no chance of passing there and would ultimately get vetoed.
I do feel for your situation and for the military and think this situation fucking blows. But, to be frank, the brinkmanship game being played that puts your work in jeopardy is the Tea Party's doing and they are responsible for the situation. Notice I didn't say Republicans. Just the Tea Party. The more traditional Republicans generally know this whole situation is not right and HAVE been voicing their opinion publicly that shutdown is not the answer to fix things. But the party as a whole has been co-opted by children who are willing to take things to the ledge and then push because they don't know any better.
The legislation of the affordable health care act was passed by traditional governmental processes; the way it has been for 200+ years. If you don't like it, you work to get legislators voted out in the senate, take back the White House and get enough votes to repeal it. This is how this republic of ours works. You don't get to derail things through these acts of by screaming, "I'm going to take my ball and go home if it isn't by my rules." Sometimes you have to let them take their ball and go home.
Do I think there are things that probably need tweeked with Obamacare? Probably. But this is NOT the way to get it done.
Tea...Pfff. I personally prefer coffee anyway...
I'd appreciate it if you would lend me the courtesy of thinking for myself. The views I express are my own. If it reflects the viewpoints of any right wing media outlet (most of which agree with no part of Obamacare at all, I might add...) that is purely coincidence...
While I do feel uncomfortable about the current state of funding for my job, I have worked long enough for the government (20 years and counting) to know that the funding portion of this argument will eventually blow over like it always does... And even if a paycheck is late, I will be paid in due time.
Would you suggest that the Republicans simply forget why they were elected? Forget about the people who voted for them?
I pose a legitimate question and your response is why do I quote the right wing media?
I think almost every person in the US who opposes this law is asking the exact same question... And it's not fueled by media at all... It is fueled by what I believe is me being backed into a corner like a rat and being told to drink the cool aid... Of course, you church it up by declaring that I do have options, but here is the problem, it's all tainted. I don't want your cool aid... I want to go to the store and buy my very own cool aid. I want to go to a store where nobody is being forced to come in, and nobody is forcing the sale. This metaphor is an oversimplification of course, but I believe you get the point.
Do you really consider this health care act to be an extension of our freedom in some way? Would you like it if all produce was sold by federally owned and operated farmers markets, and you were obligated to buy one head of lettuce per week? What if you don't want lettuce? What if they didn't have the variety of lettuce that you enjoy? I'd bet you would be awfully hacked off if at the end of your trip to the farmers market they charged you $1.00 as you were walking out the door because you didn't buy anything...
Does not of that reverberate with liberal minded people?
If the House were to attempt to negotiate the individual mandate on it's own, the same results would happen. The Senate would ignore it. The only way they have to make their voice heard when there is an opposing senate / president is to attach it to something they can not ignore.
So again... Why won't the Senate negotiate? That question is conveniently ignored...
Divebomb — Oct 01, 2013I'd appreciate it if you would lend me the courtesy of thinking for myself. The views I express are my own. If it reflects the viewpoints of any right wing media outlet (most of which agree with no part of Obamacare at all, I might add...) that is purely coincidence...
It's just the same phrasing I hear in each argument when I check in on the right leaning outlets. Can you see another viewpoint for each of your arguments?
Divebomb — Oct 01, 2013While I do feel uncomfortable about the current state of funding for my job, I have worked long enough for the government (20 years and counting) to know that the funding portion of this argument will eventually blow over like it always does... And even if a paycheck is late, I will be paid in due time.
How do you feel about the many gov employees that have been let go as part of the Republican "smaller government" agenda?
Divebomb — Oct 01, 2013Would you suggest that the Republicans simply forget why they were elected? Forget about the people who voted for them?
Can you see the opposite viewpoint? In other words replace Republicans with Democrats in your question. Now, just because you can/want to fight, doesn't mean you get what you want in the end...unless what you want is more campaign contributions!!!
Divebomb — Oct 01, 2013I pose a legitimate question and your response is why do I quote the right wing media?
I think almost every person in the US who opposes this law is asking the exact same question... And it's not fueled by media at all... It is fueled by what I believe is me being backed into a corner like a rat and being told to drink the cool aid... Of course, you church it up by declaring that I do have options, but here is the problem, it's all tainted. I don't want your cool aid... I want to go to the store and buy my very own cool aid. I want to go to a store where nobody is being forced to come in, and nobody is forcing the sale. This metaphor is an oversimplification of course, but I believe you get the point.
Do you really consider this health care act to be an extension of our freedom in some way? Would you like it if all produce was sold by federally owned and operated farmers markets, and you were obligated to buy one head of lettuce per week? What if you don't want lettuce? What if they didn't have the variety of lettuce that you enjoy? I'd bet you would be awfully hacked off if at the end of your trip to the farmers market they charged you $1.00 as you were walking out the door because you didn't buy anything...
Does not of that reverberate with liberal minded people?
If the House were to attempt to negotiate the individual mandate on it's own, the same results would happen. The Senate would ignore it. The only way they have to make their voice heard when there is an opposing senate / president is to attach it to something they can not ignore.
So again... Why won't the Senate negotiate? That question is conveniently ignored...
The healthcare law has nothing to do with funding the gov nor the debt ceiling. Putting them together is the wrong thing to do. 41 times should prove that in Congress you can do nothing, or even do harm, and continue to get paid...
Divebomb — Oct 01, 2013I just don't get it...
Why would my Government, in this supposed Democracy, force me to buy something I don't want? And then penalize me if I elect not to participate?
All we need to do is come to an agreement that the act is completely optional for all citizens... If you want it, go get it... Just like unemployment, just like welfare, just like foodstamps... But if you don't want it, that's your choice...
That's freedom... The land of the free that we live in, freedom should be the only choice to fight for. Republicans are fighting for freedom, just like they were elected to do. Why is that so bad?
Forcing me to buy something I don't want, then penalizing me if I don't... That is the exact opposite of freedom. That's borderline communism...
I was totally in that mode of thinking during the big shutdown BS in the 90's... but reality has since intervened. if I may...
1) break with the idea that the republicans "are the good guys". what's going on now is a show. it's not serious. Obamacare will be funded. the debt ceiling will be raised. the fiscal bacchanalia will continue. the arguments are essentially about how to sell this shit to the public - how to make us feel good about "our side", not how to serve the public. none of them give a shit about the public. republicans are not "fighting for freedom"... come on man... you really think john boehner is fighting for freedom? lol. crying for freedom, maybe. seriously though, republicans and democrats are NOT different. they are used car salesmen - they're selling themselves to you (for votes) and to corporations (for money/clout), using the motif that wins. maybe 3 or 4 on either side actually believe anything that comes out of their own mouths. they are all fucking sleaze... power crazy assholes.
2) this is not the country you think it is. it's not the one I thought it was. all of that, if it ever truly existed, is dead. we live in a strange reverse-fascist/corporatist/oligarch state. corporations control the government. for the citizen, it hardly matters - our job is to shut up and consume. I agree with you that the individual mandate is extremely odious - it is the core of what makes this law so disturbing... disturbing because it's the first to be so brazenly coercive and far-reaching (there is now a "constitutional amendment", courtesy of John Roberts, giving the Congress the power to tax
NON-commerce... think that won't find all sorts of use in the not so distant future?? just think of the possibilities... all for the greater good, of course). we have had a renewed assault against our liberties since 2001 - and we are losing. it's going quite fast now and we're just fucked because no one really gives a shit about it... well, if they do it's to "win" one for their partisan team or making sure the other team gets shown up... maybe call someone a racist... something like that. it's pathetic. the truth is, if you want a constitutional, democratic republic back - you'll have to argue for it from the ground up. we don't have one, that's long over... most people don't seem to know anything about what it was, much less why they might want it back.
3) everyone should understand that the government doesn't love them... doesn't really even care about them. oh, in aggregate, sure.. they "care"... but about
you... no. at best, we're a vote or a statistic with which they greedily anticipate all sorts of new data to associate... otherwise, we're grist... we're a problem. without liberty and God given (and by that I mean not MAN given) rights... we have nothing but slavery to look forward to. get used to it... or figure out how to evade it as long as you can.
4) not that you were doing this... but it's related: it's foolish to complain about what Obamacare will do to healthcare or the health insurance industry. it's doing nothing that wasn't occurring anyway. health insurance has always been a voluntary "socialist" scheme. actual healthcare has not had a real, functioning market price system for at least half a century. that we will see quality decline along with availability is certain simply because we were seeing that before "reform" - the reform is attacking
price. rising health care costs were a symptom of a failed payment model. how can you offer insurance on something when the insured amount is essentially unknowable? you can't... you just administer the ponzi until it blows up and requires a bailout (hello, ACA). how can you expect a functioning market when both parties involved in the delivery of a service have no say in the price of, or payment for, the service? if we ever get a chance to rebuild a free healthcare services marketplace... disintermediation should be the motto.
these are some of the realities of the day, as I see them. I'm not pulling from some site or mouthing someone else's dogma/agitprop - make of it what you will.
I guess that's what I was hoping for here...
What exactly is the opposing viewpoint?
The House has attempted to address the Healthcare act numerous times, each of which have been ignored...
I honestly do feel horrible about any employee that has lost their job, but I feel that there is some merit to the smaller government agenda, namely we simply can't afford to operate under the same conditions which we are currently operating under, and drastic situations require drastic measures. Big businesses have to do the same thing all the time to reign in spending. Why should the government be any different? Layoff's are an unfortunate side effect of trying to operate within your means.
I think the Senate is passing up some excellent opportunities to get almost everything they want... We're in a classic stalemate. The House is not going to hand over a clean CR, and the Senate refuses to accept anything other than a clean CR.
Why is it so important for the Senate to uphold the Individual Mandate? Even without the Individual Mandate, every single person who would have otherwise benefited from the Healthcare Act will still be able to do so with the full subsidy of the Government (Although, I contend we can't afford it...) The fact that we can't afford it is, in my opinion, exactly why this deserves to be addressed in conjunction with approving a spending bill. There is no perfect outcome for everyone, but I honestly feel like dumping the individual mandate is an outcome that we could have all been able to stomach.
I don't agree, necessarily, with how either house of congress is treating this stalemate. The collective behavior from both sides is deplorable. I just find the inability for the Senate and President to even consider what the House is proposing to be a bit more despicable than the fact that the House is using a Government Shutdown as leverage to effect the will of their constituents.
I don't expect them to forget why they were elected; but I do expect them to to not throw out the baby with the bath water.
If you don't like the cool aid, you work to get someone voted in that will fix the cool aid the way you want it (new senators and prez). I respect your right to disagree with Obamacare. Frankly I'm not 100% sure about it at all. But the process that it went through to be passed into law is the foundation of how our government works and it is the law of our land. But I do find it funny that the party that first put forth what is essentially Obamacare as an alternative Hillary's Universal Healthcare now see it as bad (especially Romney).
The reality is; what is there to negotiate? The law was passed according to the Constitution. As strongly as the majority of the House believes it is bad, the majority of the Senate and Executive believe it is good. They got the majority, yet again. Even if the Senate flipped (which isn't going to happen) they don't have enough votes to reverse a veto. To make the level of concessions the House is demanding, it would call for the Senate and Executive to change their core beliefs. So the majority is supposed to give up their beliefs for those of the minority (because that is essentially what they've been asking in voting to defund it)? Ain't gonna happen dude. Yet this is what the Tea Party expects. "We'll keep yelling until you tell us yes". Hmmm...sure sounds like petulant children to me.
ironsheep — Oct 01, 2013
2) this is not the country you think it is. it's not the one I thought it was. all of that, if it ever truly existed, is dead. we live in a strange reverse-fascist/corporatist/oligarch state. corporations control the government. for the citizen, it hardly matters - our job is to shut up and consume...
I've been thinking something similar. I coin it Capitalistic Oligarchy. We're just another cog in the consumption machine. Maybe this is the source of G.A.S...
at first I chuckled... then I had that sinking feeling... lol
Think about that the next time you buy a pedal... :o :o :o :D
Dave, you're trying to tell us that there is some rationality in this Republican move. A house that has acted like petulant children for the better part of 5 years is suddenly on some sort of high moral ground? They've refused to do even the most basic shit because they disagree with the law that they refused to vote on, even after they negotiated a whole bunch of their own crap into it?
There's a fundamental flaw to me in the way the House works. Sure, they are beholden to their constituents, but by my math, the majority that's gumming up the works also represents far less of the country than the minority that appears to be sane. I am not sure about 2012, but in 2010 when Republicans won a clear majority in the House, they got 1.4 million LESS votes than Democrats nationwide. In my opinion, the system is broken when democracy means that conservative-leaning states get more representation. Any argument about "fairness" doesn't seem to cover that, does it?
Anyway, I agree with the pundits that say you don't negotiate with a gun to your head. That's not "negotiation."
Especially for party-line conservatives like you, Dave, I think this is about putting your money where your mouth is. If you voted Republican, and you work for the government, then either you haven't been paying attention to what they've been doing with their government-funding hostage-taking for the last 5 years, or you just like to have your job constantly under threat. Now it's time to enjoy the ride your votes have bought you.
Well, it's not exactly the same, but you don't get a choice with social security either.
You also don't get a choice of whether you pay taxes or not.
America is pretty much the best place in the world to live. It doesn't come free.
Obamacare will be amended and improved in time as we find out what doesn't work so well. But, it is hear to stay. Now, I'm just a semi country boy from south Alabama, and can figure that out. Why is it that these highly educated individuals up yonder can't figure that out?
I've said this many times here, every fucking one of the congress and senate should be put in jail for the rest of their lives. They are shit bags. there needs to be term limits in for the folks that are elected to congress and the senate. Folks, until that happens, we'll continue to be fucked in the ass during broad daylight in public. thats pretty much the bottom line.
The government is shut down because of a political reason, not a money reason. these people should be ashamed of their selves. Government doesn't represent the people anymore. They represent their chosen party. And, they lie, cheat and steal to get every penny they can, pretty much in their own pocket in some form or another.
Fuck every damn one of them ignorant fucks.
Here's a thought.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/business/economy/why-the-health-care-law-scares-the-gop.html?partner=yahoofinance&_r=0
Oh come on now Charger, I don't think any of these jerks on Capital Hill should be lauded as taking a moral high ground. They are all being giant assholes...
I would argue, under almost certainly a hostile response, that the Democrats are being far more childish... And to a larger degree they are being childish in a way that is counter productive to government procedure, and against the very core of the typical peace loving liberal rhetoric. They are simply being bullies for the sake of being bullies...
A simple case of the big kid on the block putting his arm up against the head of his smaller opponent, while smacking him in the face...
You can't win... There is nothing you can do... We don't have to negotiate with you... Your constituents don't matter to us at all, and neither do the conservative voters in our own districts.
I mean, if I am the President, and the opposing party (who represents half of the voters in this country) is unhappy with something, I would be far more concerned about the voters those congressmen represent than the congressman himself. This is a divided country right now, and a huge portion of the population (to include a lot of liberals) would likely agree that the individual mandate is a load of crap.
I think it is completely ridiculous that the Senate and President are basically pretending like they are the only opinion that matters. If that were true, then there would be NO republicans in the house or the senate. Their vote isn't the only vote that matters. To ignore the House vote is to ignore every conservative individual in this country. I guess if you think that's cool, perhaps it is time to consider moving to a land with a dictator.
The republicans are simply throwing their hands up, and demanding to be heard. Is it the right time? Hell no, it isn't... But I do not disagree with their principles. You can't just pretend like they aren't there.
You should know that rural districts aren't going to bring anywhere near the voter turn out as an urban district. To suggest that liberals aren't fairly represented based on population is somewhat misguided criticism. Perhaps they aren't fairly represented based on voter turnout, but population and voter turnout are exclusive of each other.
I don't see any way to take either side. I can't believe your picking one.
charger — Oct 01, 2013Especially for party-line conservatives like you, Dave, I think this is about putting your money where your mouth is. If you voted Republican, and you work for the government, then either you haven't been paying attention to what they've been doing with their government-funding hostage-taking for the last 5 years, or you just like to have your job constantly under threat. Now it's time to enjoy the ride your votes have bought you.
To be fair, I wouldn't assess myself as a party line conservative. I have no issue with gay marriage... I have no issue with abortion... I have no issue with Obamacare, for the most part... In fact, I think it's a pretty good law right up to the point where you demand that I get it... Screw that, no government should be able to force me to do anything that I don't want to do... And no government should be trying to coerce me into believing that they know how to take care of me better than I can take care of myself. My conservative views fall more down issues like gun control, distribution of wealth, spending less to get out of debt principles, and death penalty stuff... Not so much social issues.
This is not an argument of politics... The republicans have been playing the politics game well... You don't like that, try this... No? How bout this? Not that either huh? How about this? At this point I believe they are fighting a matter of principle. They were elected, and their majority House vote deserves more than to be tabled without even reading or considering what it says...
Everyone needs to open up a bit here and stop being so hard nosed
Hookbender — Oct 02, 2013I don't see any way to take either side. I can't believe your picking one.
Do you like being told that you MUST buy something? I don't care what it is, nobody in the United States should be forced to buy anything... Based on that belief alone, I have picked a side...
Did you read that article I put up?
IMO, it seems to me you have tunnel vision. Your obsessed with that one little thing. Financially, logically, it makes perfect sense that you should have health insurance. Kinda in the same way you should be forced to have automobile insurance.
Let's forget that thing. The mandate. What else do you dislike about obamacare?
Let's not compare health insurance to mandatory auto insurance. I'm not required to own a car. I accept that the luxury of owning a car carries with it the requirement to have insurance. And I have a wide variety of companies and coverages to choose from. Free market insurance companies compete for my business. I am also given huge breaks in premiums if I am an excellent driver.
The individual mandate is one aspect of the bill I despise.
Another would be a seemingly regional difference in premiums. Different states are offering differing levels of subsidies for a given income level / risk level. If this is a federal program, every demographic should be paying the same price regardless of where they live. Meaning, that for a given risk / income level, the price should be the same in every state.
There should be no penalties associated with this bill at all.
I actually have no problem with members of the government being exempt. That has always been a government benefit.
I'm sure I could go on for days if I were to read more in depth on things I like and don't like. Does anyone really have the time to read the whole bill though? I would venture to say that even the president himself has not read the whole bill, and likely no person in his immediate staff.
What else do I really need to know? Is being alive a luxury now like owning a car?
Lemee get this straight, you side with a minority of the Republicans who think of you as a drain on the country, constantly use gov werkerz as scapegoats. and would probably like to see you fired, and, unlike this minority, you also think that you should be exempted from Obamacare?
BINGEWOOD — Oct 02, 2013Lemee get this straight, you side with a minority of the Republicans who think of you as a drain on the country, constantly use gov werkerz as scapegoats. and would probably like to see you fired, and, unlike this minority, you also think that you should be exempted from Obamacare?
Is that what you extracted from everything I've said?
Why do you assume that any republican thinks of me, or any of my co-workers as a drain on society? Or that they would like to see me, or any of my co-workers fired?
I think you're reading too far into my statements. I also think you're also assuming that I serve in an administrative roll. I watched today as many of the other civilian staff here in Pearl Harbor were handed their furlough slips, and by noon, they were gone... I was not one of those folks... I serve in a roll that is declared as mission critical fleet response for the Submarine Force. As such, my contract is "earmarked" as some would put it, for automatic renewal, and is not effected by furloughs, shutdowns, debt ceiling debates, or the like...
In essence, I am treated the same, as far as the protection of pay is concerned, as an active duty service member.
And I don't, nor have I ever said, that
I should be exempted from Obamacare... I think
every breathing US Citizen should be given the option to abstain from enrollment without penalty. If you want it, go get it... If you don't, then don't get it...
I think you may have been confused by my claim that I don't have any issue with congress or the president being exempted. Just like the Military, they are enrolled in a federally subsidized healthcare program. The military actually gets a 100% subsidy, where federal employees get 70-ish% subsidy. This isn't something they get forever, only while actively serving in some capacity of the government (The President probably gets it forever...). I think it is widely known that our civilian counterparts usually make an order of magnitude higher salary than an equally qualified government employee, so that is a benefit extended to government employees to somewhat ease the pain of accepting a lower comparative salary. No other person with employer provided healthcare is expected to enroll in Obamacare either, to the best of my knowledge. The exemption for congressmen/women was worded poorly, and in all respects was probably not necessary, as they would be exempted from enrollment under the same parts of the bill that exempt people with employer provided insurance.
I see where you're coming from but I don't think the minority of Republicans that have been playing games agrees. They speak of government workers without differentiating. They speak of no exemptions for gov employees.
BINGEWOOD — Oct 02, 2013I see where you're coming from but I don't think the minority of Republicans that have been playing games agrees. They speak of government workers without differentiating. They speak of no exemptions for gov employees.
Right... And I think they are being ridiculous on that front... Like I've said, I'm not at all far right conservative bleeding red elephant loving republican like some folks. Just mostly conservative, and a little bit liberal... :)
Divebomb — Oct 02, 2013Let's not compare health insurance to mandatory auto insurance. I'm not required to own a car. I accept that the luxury of owning a car carries with it the requirement to have insurance.
But you do understand that we
had a system in which people were not required to carry insurance, but hospitals were required to treat them? And then taxpayers picked up the bill when they couldn't pay? We've just shifted the responsibility from "
we have to pay for you" to "
you have to pay for you." If the Pubs want to gut this, then they need to go all the way, and say "you either have insurance, or you don't get treated." I would agree with that. I think it would be horrific, and bodies would pile up all over the country, but that is the logical extension of the argument, and I think they should take it there. Otherwise they are saying, "yes, government will pay for your healthcare, but we just won't talk about it." That's not honesty. That's abdicating responsibility.
By the way, you do know that the Pubs invented the individual mandate, too? They used to love the idea of personal responsibility, before they decided it was socialism.
And, also, none of this matters. Republicans have tied two totally unrelated issues together here. They've had their shot at the health care bill, many, many times. They do not have the votes to gut it. Passing a freaking budget is not related to a law they don't have the votes to overturn. The government still needs to run even if they can't get their way.
Divebomb — Oct 02, 2013Let's not compare health insurance to mandatory auto insurance. I'm not required to own a car. I accept that the luxury of owning a car carries with it the requirement to have insurance. And I have a wide variety of companies and coverages to choose from. Free market insurance companies compete for my business. I am also given huge breaks in premiums if I am an excellent driver.
The individual mandate is one aspect of the bill I despise.
Another would be a seemingly regional difference in premiums. Different states are offering differing levels of subsidies for a given income level / risk level. If this is a federal program, every demographic should be paying the same price regardless of where they live. Meaning, that for a given risk / income level, the price should be the same in every state.
There should be no penalties associated with this bill at all.
I actually have no problem with members of the government being exempt. That has always been a government benefit.
I'm sure I could go on for days if I were to read more in depth on things I like and don't like. Does anyone really have the time to read the whole bill though? I would venture to say that even the president himself has not read the whole bill, and likely no person in his immediate staff.
What else do I really need to know? Is being alive a luxury now like owning a car?
Why not compare it? If you drive a car, your required to have insurance. If you don't, and your caught, you pay a penalty. If you get in a accident and don't have coverage, and enough people do this, then everyone has to pay higher premiums. If the same mandate were applied to auto insurance as health insurance, hopefully, the same logic and outcome would mean lower premiums for everyone, right? Thats kinda kept premiums down, for everyone.
So lets say, you get cancer and don't have any health insurance. Why should everyone thats had health insurance for years have to pay higher premiums because you decided that you didn't want health insurance? Is that fair?
You seem to be concerned with you, and no one else regarding health insurance and the mandate. But your decision on health insurance effects others, not just you. Just as an example.
Also, the mandate is a huge factor in Obamacare. Its purpose in part, is to make sure everyone has health benefits. It would do no good if government paid these mandates, as they do now for the uninsured basically.
I think it would be better to actually find out all you can about Obamacare and see if the entire package is overall better than the system we have in place now. you may find that overall, the mandate is a small price to pay for all the benefits and advantages that the entire package provides. Could it be worse than what we have now, I really doubt it. Compare our healthcare system to other countries. Find out what you can on the net about Obamacare. Charger can give you great sites that break it down for you. He just gave me one in another thread.
You say you don't like the mandate. I don't like the entire package. I don't think our entire system needed reconstruction. I think the good things in Obamacare could have been applied without all the bullshit in less than a 50 page law. But thats just me.
So bitching about the law without knowing what's in it, Nancy, just doesn't make a lot of sense. ;D ;D Its hear. Just hope it works and we can improve it over time. It can't be much worse than what we have. And, you can't please everyone in the attempt to better our system in the first attempt. It will get better in time and may be good as is. We'll see.
People who have always had health insurance and access to doctors seem to find it hard to understand how beneficial it is to afford that to people who have never had it. It's the right thing to do. Even if you don't like some parts of it.
Just a few thought to ponder. :)
Simply put, the pubs are just pissed that the dems actually did something to help the people of this country. And if this works, you'll probably have many more people voting democratic in the future. the only thing I can see the pubs supporting, at this point, is war. they are to stupid to see that supporting good ideas that Obama comes up with to better the country, helps the country. And, helping people in this country is their fucking job. Helping themselves is not their job. Their mindset is one of winning for their party, not the people of this country. thats why they should go to jail for the rest of their lives. Term limits for congress and the senate. Not saying that will fix everything, but I think it would surely help!
Hookbender — Oct 03, 2013Simply put, the pubs are just pissed that the dems actually did something to help the people of this country. And if this works, you'll probably have many more people voting democratic in the future. the only thing I can see the pubs supporting, at this point, is war. they are to stupid to see that supporting good ideas that Obama comes up with to better the country, helps the country. And, helping people in this country is their fucking job. Helping themselves is not their job. Their mindset is one of winning for their party, not the people of this country. thats why they should go to jail for the rest of their lives. Term limits for congress and the senate. Not saying that will fix everything, but I think it would surely help!
Holy fuck I hope most people aren't that stupid.
I would disagree that Obamacare and Government Funding are not related...
IF the Republicans had stuck to their guns on the original proposal to fund the Government, and defund or delay Obamacare.
The ACA is not exactly cheap. To suggest it is not a factor to consider when deciding whether or not to fund the Government is just silly... That's my opinion though, which is worth a hill of beans...
I see the true issue here being, as I have suggested in previous posts, that the Democrats have zero appreciation for the fact the Republicans in Congress also represent a large portion of this country. This isn't a matter of whether or not they are willing to negotiate. They aren't negotiating because they hate conservative values. And because they hold the senate and the presidency, they have the House of Representatives in a stranglehold. Well, unless the house is willing to ignore their constituents, then this stalemate will last indefinitely.
Here is an interesting prospect... I would be willing to bet that if I were to call the offices of MY representative, and MY Senator (Both democrats) and expressed my opinion, they would ignore my phone call, and likely hang up on me... How DARE me be a conservative and question their motives!
We aren't evil people, and liberals do not know what is good for everyone... Just because you CAN ignore the House of Representatives doesn't mean that you SHOULD. This is not how bi-partisan government should work. We don't have a system where demands can be made without negotiating.
Hundreds of millions of people voted... You took office to represent all of us, liberals and conservatives. Stop ignoring what we conservatives want.
This kind of crap boils my blood...
CraigBert — Oct 03, 2013[quote author=Hookbender link=1380588020/25#26 date=1380765311]Simply put, the pubs are just pissed that the dems actually did something to help the people of this country. And if this works, you'll probably have many more people voting democratic in the future. the only thing I can see the pubs supporting, at this point, is war. they are to stupid to see that supporting good ideas that Obama comes up with to better the country, helps the country. And, helping people in this country is their fucking job. Helping themselves is not their job. Their mindset is one of winning for their party, not the people of this country. thats why they should go to jail for the rest of their lives. Term limits for congress and the senate. Not saying that will fix everything, but I think it would surely help!
Holy fuck I hope most people aren't that stupid.
Explain your concern.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/jon-stewart-on-govt-shutdown_n_4020581.html
I know I'm breaking the rule about links, but Jon Stewart nails it.
I think anyone who blames either side is bias. They clearly are both at fault, imo.
I wouldn't take anything he says seriously. He's a comedian who's claim to fame is kinda making fun of all the news networks. He's pretty much a joke. I can't see him "nailing" much of anything. Just my opinion. :)
Yeah, rules? ;D
Thats the best thing about this place, there are no rules. Unless you take into consideration the ones that are made up and disappear during certain arguments. ;D ;D
Does anyone here dispute that the SCOTUS did indeed rule that the ACA was unconstitutional as written?
Does anyone dispute that once that determination was made, rather than alter the bill themselves, they should have sent it back to Congress with a big unconstitutional stamp on it?
Nobody thinks that they might have gotten out of their swim lane when they took it upon themselves to basically alter the legislation without the consent of the legislative branch of the government?
This is one of those things that the Democrats conveniently leave out when they say that the ACA was ruled constitutional by the SCOTUS.
Not exactly...
Divebomb — Oct 03, 2013I would disagree that Obamacare and Government Funding are not related...
IF the Republicans had stuck to their guns on the original proposal to fund the Government, and defund or delay Obamacare.
The ACA is not exactly cheap. To suggest it is not a factor to consider when deciding whether or not to fund the Government is just silly... That's my opinion though, which is worth a hill of beans...
I see the true issue here being, as I have suggested in previous posts, that the Democrats have zero appreciation for the fact the Republicans in Congress also represent a large portion of this country. This isn't a matter of whether or not they are willing to negotiate. They aren't negotiating because they hate conservative values. And because they hold the senate and the presidency, they have the House of Representatives in a stranglehold. Well, unless the house is willing to ignore their constituents, then this stalemate will last indefinitely.
Here is an interesting prospect... I would be willing to bet that if I were to call the offices of MY representative, and MY Senator (Both democrats) and expressed my opinion, they would ignore my phone call, and likely hang up on me... How DARE me be a conservative and question their motives!
We aren't evil people, and liberals do not know what is good for everyone... Just because you CAN ignore the House of Representatives doesn't mean that you SHOULD. This is not how bi-partisan government should work. We don't have a system where demands can be made without negotiating.
Hundreds of millions of people voted... You took office to represent all of us, liberals and conservatives. Stop ignoring what we conservatives want.
This kind of crap boils my blood...
You don't get to legislate without a majority. That's just not how it works. The Republicans in the House have voted 40 times to repeal Obamacare, because they are great posturers and can't afford tea party challengers. I think their biggest fear right now is that it all turns out to work well, and all the years they spent railing against it look foolish.
But I have two examples on this that I think are relevant.
First, remember when the Democrats wanted to repeal the Bush tax cuts on everyone making more than 250k? Remember that that was a BROADLY popular idea... I'm not talking the 50/50 of Obamacare, but something like 60/40 were in favor of that. But the Republicans wouldn't have it. So the Democrats extended it once, and then the next time, they repealed it but only for people making more than 400k.
Neither time did they shut down the government. If you want to cry about the Democrats not being willing to negotiate with Republicans, you don't have a leg to stand on, since Republicans have gotten pretty much everything they wanted the last 5 years by just threatening to blow up the economy.
Now, imagine that the shoe is reversed. Say it's 5 days after the Sandyhook shooting, and now Democrats have decided they won't pass a budget unless it includes new, stringent gun control laws. Because, hey, some 51% of people wanted that, too. Would that be an okay "negotiating" tactic? Should they shut down the government to get it?
In summary, I think Obama is right to say no. He should have said it the last two times, too. It's just not Congressional "leadership" to piss and shit in the sandbox if you can't have every toy you want. In 2012, Republicans ran forcefully against Obama on Obamacare, and they had a presidential candidate whose DAY 1 agenda was to repeal it. They lost. It's been not only passed, but affirmed. It's time for them to grow up and stop being little whiny babies, and take what they can get.
Divebomb — Oct 03, 2013Does anyone here dispute that the SCOTUS did indeed rule that the ACA was unconstitutional as written?
Does anyone dispute that once that determination was made, rather than alter the bill themselves, they should have sent it back to Congress with a big unconstitutional stamp on it?
Nobody thinks that they might have gotten out of their swim lane when they took it upon themselves to basically alter the legislation without the consent of the legislative branch of the government?
This is one of those things that the Democrats conveniently leave out when they say that the ACA was ruled constitutional by the SCOTUS.
Not exactly...
Now you've lost me. The Supreme Court ruled the ACA was constitutional. They ruled one part of it unconstitional and removed it. That happens all the time. This law has been passed by three branches, and reaffirmed by a presidential election.
However, I have a brilliant idea... and I will confess it is not mine... why not shut the government in every congressional district where the representative votes to defund, and reopen it in all the districts where the congresspeople vote to fund the government?
Given that the bill was passed with the express notion given to the general public that the penalty exercised by the individual mandate was not a tax, had Chief Justice Roberts considered the legislation based on the declaration that it was not a tax, he expressed in his own written opinion that he would have ruled the individual mandate unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause...
Where he took it upon himself to declare the Individual Mandate penalty a tax, even though nowhere in the bill was it declared a tax, and it was expressly advertised to the public as not being a tax, is where I believe things got a little hairy.
By Chief Justice Roberts effectively inserting verbiage where it did not exist, he upheld the individual mandate as a tax... And that is a load of crap...
Look, I understand that the House has their hands tied, and there is nothing they can do... But as I have said repeatedly, does that make the Senate right? To ignore the house is to ignore the tens, maybe even hundreds of millions of US Citizens who agree that the ACA should be defunded / delayed.
Again... Just because the Senate CAN ignore them, doesn't mean they SHOULD. They need to think about every person in the US, not some stupid law that may or may not work.
Both houses of congress are being very petty...
You present the argument that the republicans are afraid that the ACA might work... I think their biggest fear is that it WON'T work... If they thought it was gonna work, they would put their support behind it.
Did you know that every vote to repeal the ACA in the House has received a number of Democratic votes as well? What's up with those Democrats who think repealing the ACA is a good idea?
BTW... Gun Control has nothing to do with the budget...
The ACA does...
Hence, why I believe tying the funding of the ACA to any budget related legislation makes perfect sense.
In your home, do you buy a new car if you can't afford the payments? Or do you at least make an attempt to start paying off the debt?
I would put forth a bill that declares a spending freeze on all new legislation until a budget is passed that results in the national debt decreasing. Furthermore, I would include that no new legislation will be considered that causes the national debt to increase in any way.
But, because I am conservative, that bill would get tossed out, even though it's an awesome idea...
Trust me, the "being scared it won't work" thing has never truly crossed the republicans mind. They haven't got their yet. They still think this thing will be voted on next week.
Please inform yourself by research on the net before you post again. Your post are getting worse and worse. :)
I refuse to research anything. Haha it makes this a bitching and learning session.
I look up things here and there to make sure I'm not completely talking out of my ass.
And you have to admit, even if I have conservative views, I'm not a complete whacko when it comes to this stuff. I wouldn't have jumped in the snake pit here if I didn't want to know how the other side thinks.
Now Randy on the other hand. Kookoo!!
And for the record, I think my old Republican friends in congress are completely fucked. There is no way Reid is going to give in, he's way too old and hard headed for these tactics to work on him.
I still want to know why they won't even consider negotiating, but I have no false hope that anything will change as a result of this shutdown. It's completely retarded.
Now the Republican base is left with this question. Why did you pick a fight with a giant you knew you couldn't beat?
Divebomb — Oct 04, 2013I refuse to research anything. Haha it makes this a bitching and learning session.
I look up things here and there to make sure I'm not completely talking out of my ass.
And you have to admit, even if I have conservative views, I'm not a complete whacko when it comes to this stuff. I wouldn't have jumped in the snake pit here if I didn't want to know how the other side thinks.
Now Randy on the other hand. Kookoo!!
Thats cool. It's hard to have a serious discussion though if you refuse to know what your talking about up front. Your post kinda back your statement up. ;D
Trust me, your not even close to Randy. You would first have to be insane, and your not. ;D ;D
Look at this crap.
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/obamacare-worst-law-passed-four-decades-must-stopped-121701392.html
How the fuck does he know this isn't gonna work? Talks a lot of shit and gives no evidence to support any damn claim he makes. You can't completely blame Americans for not knowing whats really going on when their forced to digest this shit day in and day out.
I just watched Bone Head talk on TV and damn, it's extremely hard not to side with Democrats on this. It is so embarrassing to see these people act like 5 year old children at their age. I guess education, in my mind, is just a tad less important now, to me anyway. ;D
Divebomb — Oct 03, 2013Given that the bill was passed with the express notion given to the general public that the penalty exercised by the individual mandate was not a tax, had Chief Justice Roberts considered the legislation based on the declaration that it was not a tax, he expressed in his own written opinion that he would have ruled the individual mandate unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause...
Where he took it upon himself to declare the Individual Mandate penalty a tax, even though nowhere in the bill was it declared a tax, and it was expressly advertised to the public as not being a tax, is where I believe things got a little hairy.
By Chief Justice Roberts effectively inserting verbiage where it did not exist, he upheld the individual mandate as a tax... And that is a load of crap...
Look, I understand that the House has their hands tied, and there is nothing they can do... But as I have said repeatedly, does that make the Senate right? To ignore the house is to ignore the tens, maybe even hundreds of millions of US Citizens who agree that the ACA should be defunded / delayed.
Again... Just because the Senate CAN ignore them, doesn't mean they SHOULD. They need to think about every person in the US, not some stupid law that may or may not work.
Both houses of congress are being very petty...
You present the argument that the republicans are afraid that the ACA might work... I think their biggest fear is that it WON'T work... If they thought it was gonna work, they would put their support behind it.
Did you know that every vote to repeal the ACA in the House has received a number of Democratic votes as well? What's up with those Democrats who think repealing the ACA is a good idea?
Dude... Romney got 58 million votes, and yet, he gets absolutely no say in the government. You're arguing into the wind. I mean, for a while Democrats had 59 votes in the Senate and could pass anything they want. The Senate, instead, fillibustered 450 times or something like that. Didn't hear you crying about that. Didn't hear you crying about the millions of Democrats not getting represented.
Hey Dave, did you catch that subtle switch, now that the Republicans have taken it squarely in the chin for being stupid fucks? They're not talking about Obamacare anymore... now they're talking about how they shut down the government over entitlement reform.
So, do you feel like it's a good idea to shut down the government over entitlement reform? Or is it time for them to grow a pair and vote to reopen the govt?
It's obvious to me that the pubs, especially, look really bad right now.