The Watering Hole

Hookbender — Aug 22, 2008What has Bush spent money on? Other than the war?

Isn't that enough?  

Look at your last to responses Charger. Stuff like that makes me want to vote republican. Just to do it.

I missed that

What has Bush spent money on? Other than the war?

Funding tax cuts
I am not against tax cuts - but it can't be funded by increasing debt.

http://www.economicshelp.org/2008/06/debt-in-us-legacy-of-bush.html

The war has caused much of the debt durring Bush's term. Wars are much more expensive today than they use to be. And this thing with Iraq has gone on alot longer than most of our past wars.

Government spending, on all levels, is out of control. Has been with every President we've had. No argument there from me! Except that Bush isn't alone in this particular subject.

That's a % of GDP graph - i.e. designed to remove the it is more expensive today argument.

hmm - STUDY THE GRAPH.

LOOK AT IT CLOSELY -

Do you see a pattern forming.

Not compared to the Reagan years.

And we haven't got a good comparison because of this expensive war. Take out that expense and what do you have?

Not excusing the mistake of the war, but the cost of this is huge.

Wars would cost less if they were actually done for the same reasons they used to (to steal resources and other valuables).

Hookbender — Aug 25, 2008Not compared to the Reagan years.

And we haven't got a good comparison because of this expensive war. Take out that expense and what do you have?

Not excusing the mistake of the war, but the cost of this is huge.

Tax cuts is about 30% of the increase in debt under GWB and a proportion that will continue increasing until that gap is closed by either a cut in spending or a raise in taxes.

But let's be fair to GWB  - the next President pays the political cost for that. :)

George is the giver of  tax cuts - what a guy.

You  have already started  paying that debt down everyday through higher prices for things like oil and other imports due to a weak dollar due to a glut of $$$ debt.

But that ain't Bush's fault - he can't control things like the economy.

There isn't anything wrong with cutting taxes. It needs to be done and should be done.

The problem is he cut taxes without a plan to cut spending, kinda like he went to war, then decided he better come up with a plan to end the war. He fucked up.

Government has to be controled by congress. Congress is also to blame. The congress we have now is the worst ever. A group of idiots lead by a real dumb ass.

Their's plenty of blame to go around. Question is, what are we gonna do about it. Amd the answer to that is, probably nothing...as usual.

Yeah - doh - sure - cut taxes.

Doing it in the never never is just plain dumb.

That is the point -
who do you like - republicans - they cut your taxes
who do you hate - democrats - the raise your taxes - BOOOOOOOH

look at the graph again.

Hookbender — Aug 25, 2008There isn't anything wrong with cutting taxes. It needs to be done and should be done.

The problem is he cut taxes without a plan to cut spending, kinda like he went to war, then decided he better come up with a plan to end the war. He fucked up.

Government has to be controled by congress. Congress is also to blame. The congress we have now is the worst ever. A group of idiots lead by a real dumb ass.

Their's plenty of blame to go around. Question is, what are we gonna do about it. Amd the answer to that is, probably nothing...as usual.

Honestly and not just you but all of us - you are not willing to accept the answer.

Shit is going down economically at the moment and it aint going to be pretty.

I wonder how many times you have to say "look at the graph again" before he makes the connection?

Seriously, Hook, there's no reason to be juvenile.  You think it "threatens" me when you say my comments want to make you vote Republican?  You voted Republican the last two times, without my help.  Why should I care how you vote now?  Sure, I am voting for Obama, but it's not just my country.  It's yours too.  If you don't give enough of a shit about it to vote on the real issues, then you just don't give enough of a shit, and that's your right.  No one says you have to be an informed voter, or even vote in your own interest.  Millions and millions of people vote in the interests of people who make more money in a day then they will in a lifetime.  What can you say about that?  It just is what it is.

Cutting taxes doesn't increase debt if you have responsibility and accountability within government. That's something lacking that needs to be fixed. Graph or no graph. If you want to pay higher taxes, just send the government a check.

We could stop sending Israel money for a few years and be out of debt quickly. ;)

And realistically, raising taxes is no guaranteed fix to our problem. If the spending is still out of control, the debt will continue to rise. It only hurts Americans more if they pay higher taxes.

The only solution to this problem is to hold congress and the President responsible for their spending habits and increase in the size overall of government. I think raising taxes is just insane. We need to make government cut back to fix the problem, not make Americans pay higher taxes to fix the problem.

Insert that in your graph.

I think it would be smart for you to read the fucking chart again.

Notice that even the bloated, ever-expanding governments of the 50s, 60s and 70s still saw the debt sinking, and then the supposedly "smaller", less taxes government of the Reagan and Bush years saw it bloat up again, and then in Clinton's administration, brought it down again (while still increasing spending), and then it's up again in Bush W's years?

Tax cuts of the sort designed by Bush are fucking stupid...and the reality is, the tax plan proposed by Obama is much better for middle-class folk like you and me than the McCain plan, which only helps the super rich remain wealthy.

I don't blame him for his self-interest, but he and the other gaggle of Republican liars really should stop claiming he's trying to cut YOUR taxes, because he isn't. Obama's the only one doing that. McCain's trying to cut rich people's taxes even more, shifting more burden on the people who actually SPEND money, further sending the economy down the toilet.

Not that McCain will get his plan passed if he wins and they elect 3 or 4 more populist Democrats to the Senate.

Tripper

So if your so agaist tax cuts, and tax cuts create debt, why are you voting for Obama who will cut taxes 3 times the amount of McCains plan for 95% of Americans? You guys don't make sense.

Fuck a graph. ;D ;D

This is from Obama's website. Section on the economy. Damn near everything in this is about spending billions of dollars and tax cuts almost accross the board. Now with our country in debt like it is, where is the hell are we gonna get all this money? If your worried about debt, Obama ain't you guy, my friends. He's gonna make the debt worse than it is now by his own admission.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/

They both want to spend a ton, and in reality, won't be able to. But only one of them is going to bring more money IN, which is the side of the equation that needs to start coming under control NOW.  

McCain supports cutting the tax rate on corporations to 10%.  What the fuck is that?  That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  That sure would be nice for the oil companies that keep turning out record profits in the billions every quarter, wouldn't it?

The bottom line is, rich people should pay more taxes.  The idea that they get a lower tax rate than someone in the middle class is absolutely ludicrous.  Ask Warren Buffett:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3869458&page=1

Just seems to me that if you use the logic that you and Fingers use, the country will get much worse if Obama is elected. So, if you choose the lesser of 2 evils concerning the economy, McCain is the only choice to make.

I think I'm more confused now than when I started trying to figure politics out a year or two ago on this forum.

I don't see how anyone could vote for Obama if the economy is important in the decision process. Am I missing something??? I know very little about politics, as my post surely show, but this really doesn't make sense from a voters perspective.

Hookbender — Aug 25, 2008Just seems to me that if you use the logic that you and Fingers use, the country will get much worse if Obama is elected. So, if you choose the lesser of 2 evils concerning the economy, McCain is the only choice to make.

I would be interested to find out what your thought process was for that conclusion, because I think most people kind of think the opposite.  

Clearly, we can't keep doing what Bush was doing, and that is McCain's economic plan.  Go ahead and read it, and you will see there are no changes from Bush's plan.  None.  The only difference McCain wants is MORE tax cuts on the rich.  

Here's how the economy gets better under Obama:
a) He reinstates the previous tax level on the rich.  This does not hurt the economy, because they are rich, and rich people spend what they are going to spend anyway.  However, it helps to reduce the deficit.  
b) He reduces taxes on the poorest and the middle class.  Though this is a modest amount (the middle class can not suddenly buy Lexuses), it matters because:
c) He begins to reduce the deficit.  Reducing the deficit is the number one, most important way that the dollar gains value.  As the dollar gains value, prices for goods and services come down.  Prices for goods and services most directly affect the middle class and the poor, because they are the ones who, when the buy stuff, worry about the amount they have to spend.

That's economics 101, and how we ended up with a surplus under Clinton.  

Alternatively, you can go with Plan B, aka, Plan McCain.
a) He reduces taxes on the rich, and we lose billions in tax revenue.  This does not affect the rich much at all, because they are rich, and they are going to spend what they are going to spend, regardless.
b) He reduces taxes on corporations by more than 200% (!), and we lose billions in tax revenue.
c) He reduces taxes on the middle class, and though it is a modest amount (actually less than Obama's cuts) it doesn't matter at all, because:
d) the deficit grows by a STAGGERING amount with no offsets for the lost tax revenue.  Because the deficit continues to grow, the dollar loses value, and so the tax cuts for the middle class and the poor amount to jack shit.  The economic situation grows even worse, and in 2012, the Democrat running for president against McCain is able to trot out Reagan's old line "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"  The Democrat wins 42 states in a complete landslide, and everyone who voted for McCain the last time around silently kicks themselves in the ass as they think, "what the FUCK was I thinking?"

Everyone should pay a flat tax.  If you're poor you automatically pay less but, if you want to make more, you can although you'll pay more in taxes (just not a stupid amount more).  Success gets punished too much and super-success is being let off the hook.

Taxes are too fucking complicated right now.

Hookbender — Aug 25, 2008Cutting taxes doesn't increase debt if you have responsibility and accountability within government.

I'm sorry.....I coudn't get past that sentence.  I was laughing so hard I almost peed myself.  

Seriously......seriously.  LOOK at what you wrote.  That's the oxymoron of the year.

Well, Charger....what you said makes perfect sense in a perfect world in which our world, America, isn't at war. But it does make sense.

See, the problem I have with Obama's plan is that the money he plans to save, pay down debt, is already spent on new programs and bigger government. He has a new plan for decreasing the debt, and that's all good. But the plan will fail because he has the money spent on new programs. I would like detail of an economic plan by Obama. The brief plan on his site is just plans to spend money and cut taxes.

Seems it wouldn't matter to much who you cut taxes on if the result is more debt. If Obama cuts taxes on 95% of America, over 3 times the amount of McCains plan, and raises them on 5% of America....well fuck, that's alot of ground to make up with 5% of America. The math and logic doesn't quite work for me.

Fenderbender — Aug 26, 2008[quote author=Hookbender link=1219073140/50#62 date=1219682392]Cutting taxes doesn't increase debt if you have responsibility and accountability within government.

I'm sorry.....I coudn't get past that sentence.  I was laughing so hard I almost peed myself.  

Seriously......seriously.  LOOK at what you wrote.  That's the oxymoron of the year.

Well, it is funny. But if American voters learn to accept lees than government is capable of, as we have, nothing will change. It's never gonna be perfect, but we have accepted way less than decent for far to long. Government is out of control.

CraigBert — Aug 26, 2008Everyone should pay a flat tax.  If you're poor you automatically pay less but, if you want to make more, you can although you'll pay more in taxes (just not a stupid amount more).  Success gets punished too much and super-success is being let off the hook.

This is great in theory (truly just), but shitty in practice. It makes the middle class go away.

Plus, the taxes on those in the highest tax bracket (the 1-percenters, also known as the Republicans' base) aren't putting anyone who is successful in the poor house, and they aren't really adversely affecting their lifestyle in any way.

Rich people who don't want to pay taxes have ways of not paying their share of taxes. Things would still be completely fucked even if the tax system was changed to Neil Boortz's Fair Taxtm. There's a hefty amount of economic delusion in that crowd...it's mostly angry white guys who think their money is all going to Loqueshia the single mother with four kids from different dads who drives a Lexus (and who doesn't exist, in any practical sense, except in the paranoid imagination of Rush Limbaugh listeners).

Taxes are too fucking complicated right now.

However, this sentiment I agree with 100%.

The budget crisis could easily be solved by taxing Church land holdings...but we're too Jesusy in this country to actually do that...

Tripper

I just read McCains plan and it just seems much better to me. I'm not in favor of lowering taxes on the rich, but I didn't see that on his site. I saw lower taxes for coorperations in America....that stay in America.

Hey Charger....got any suggestions of any good reading on the economy in general. Book or internet?

I need to study up on this a bit.

Hookbender — Aug 26, 2008Seems it wouldn't matter to much who you cut taxes on if the result is more debt. If Obama cuts taxes on 95% of America, over 3 times the amount of McCains plan, and raises them on 5% of America....well fuck, that's alot of ground to make up with 5% of America. The math and logic doesn't quite work for me.

Where is the wealth in this country concentrated, Hook? THE TOP 5%

The math only doesn't make sense because you really have no fucking idea how it all works.

I barely have an idea, and it makes clear sense to me, and the vast majority of economists who have studied the candidates' plans have said that Obama's makes more sense. Of course, that statement's a logical fallacy called an "appeal to authority" and it doesn't mean anything, really, but I'd rather have a guy who knows how to control money (like Obama) than a guy whose campaign was all but bankrupt less than a year ago (McCain) and only really started getting money once the other guys dropped out and he was the only choice.

Again: the smart, calm guy who cares about workable solutions that benefit the entire country is better than the willfully ignorant, excitable guy who cares more about the ideology than the solution and only seems interested in things that benefit people like him (rich people).

Tripper

Hookbender — Aug 26, 2008 math and logic doesn't quite work for me.

True that :)

Not sure how you missed it.



http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/?postversion=2008061113


McCain: The average taxpayer in every income group would see a lower tax bill, but high-income taxpayers would benefit more than everyone else.

Obama: High-income taxpayers would pay more in taxes, while everyone else's tax bill would be reduced. Those who benefit the most - in terms of reducing their taxes as a percentage of after-tax income - are in the lowest income groups.

Tripper — Aug 26, 2008[quote author=Hookbender link=1219073140/50#71 date=1219785504]Seems it wouldn't matter to much who you cut taxes on if the result is more debt. If Obama cuts taxes on 95% of America, over 3 times the amount of McCains plan, and raises them on 5% of America....well fuck, that's alot of ground to make up with 5% of America. The math and logic doesn't quite work for me.

Where is the wealth in this country concentrated, Hook? THE TOP 5%

and actually, it's not even the top 5%.  It's the top fraction of 1% who are so fucking rich, the shock would probably kill you instantly if you one day saw their monthly salary at the bottom of an ATM receipt.  

Hookbender — Aug 26, 2008got any suggestions of any good reading on the economy in general. Book or internet?

I need to study up on this a bit.

"Das Kapital"
Karl Marx

Well, your not addressing the fact that Obama has huge spending plans. That seems to be a problem when your fucking broke.

Trip is pretty much right. I need to read a few books on this economy stuff. Although I don't see how me knowing how the economy works by reading a few books when the economist, so called experts, can't get it right themselves.

Maybe the economy is just a mute point and that's why the candidates aren't talking about it. The debt, that is. Or, maybe they both don't have a clue. Like me. ;D

I'm not just starting shit though....I am really trying to figure this out.

What is your opinion of Biden? Haven't heard much about him from you. I really like the guy!! You???

fingers — Aug 26, 2008[quote author=Hookbender link=1219073140/50#71 date=1219785504] math and logic doesn't quite work for me.

True that :)




Asshole. ;D ;D ;D

:)

You know....and this sounds childish, I guess....if you really study the candidates and all the issues, it's pretty much, well...work. I wonder if the majoriety of people read, search, and study these guys like I'm doing. Or, is that why they declare themselves as dem or repub and just vote that way?

Just like when I changed my religious views, I feel like I'm in college again. Fucking lot to learn on my part.

You are fucking deluding yourself.

Everyone here knows exactly how you are going to fucking vote - you are fucking kidding nobody that you are  open and uncertain.
And don't fucking pretend otherwise - it is fucking  bullshit, the last few pages on this fucking thread have shown it.

btw - that  fucking graph is data - real fucking data - yet  you fucking ignorantly dismiss it.

So how the fuck do you think you can fucking learn like that - what kind of fucking college did you fucking go to where you learnt by fucking ignoring the data.

if there ever was a cunt in need of reading  a fucking book it's you.

;)

fingers — Aug 27, 2008You are fucking deluding yourself.

Everyone here knows exactly how you are going to fucking vote - you are fucking kidding nobody that you are  open and uncertain.
And don't fucking pretend otherwise - it is fucking  bullshit, the last few pages on this fucking thread have shown it.

btw - that  fucking graph is data - real fucking data - yet  you fucking ignorantly dismiss it.

So how the fuck do you think you can fucking learn like that - what kind of fucking college did you fucking go to where you learnt by fucking ignoring the data.

if there ever was a cunt in need of reading  a fucking book it's you.

;)

Looks like Matt got a hold of Noel's login!  ;D

Well, you think what you want. I may go about things differently than most, but just as I did in religious views, I WILL LEARN AND UNDERSTAND THIS SHIT BEFORE I VOTE. And that's the important thing here.

There is no delusion here, I've admitted I have much to learn. I've also said my interest lies with Obama because he's got my interest, and because I've always voted repub in the past. So, I'd like to discuss mostly Obama, then worry about Bush...I mean McCain.

I like to learn by doing, as much as by study. I don't know much about politics but everytime I jump in with both feet in these discussions, I learn something. That's the main reason I do participate in the politics part, because I want to learn.

Is this how they treat people with desire for knowledge where your from?

I didn't ignore the fucking graph, I questioned it. Got a problem with that? Obviously.

You free thinkers get a little Christian like when your questioned, doncha?

I guess free thinking liberals don't like questions either. ;D ;D

Ever see a jackass fuck an elephant?

From the best democratic President in a while.....

"During the primary race, the former president said Obama's opposition to the Iraq war was a "fairy tale" and raised questions about whether the first-term Illinois senator had the experience to lead the country. When he compared Obama's win in South Carolina to Jesse Jackson's victories there in the 1980s, he angered some black leaders who felt Clinton was dismissing Obama's historic bid.

President Clinton......of course.

And why is Jackson Jr. talking at the democratic convention? Another great choice of friend from Obama. ;D

Damn, there I go again, pointing out flaws of Obama. Shit. Shit.

Uhh... Clinton's WIFE was running.  Did you not notice that?  

And have you missed the way that Jesse Jackson has been caught dissing Obama over the last few months?  He's obviously not a good friend of Obama.  BTW, Obama doesn't pick the speakers at the convention, the party picks them.  Certainly, Obama's wife gets to speak, and Obama, and Biden.  But the convention belongs to the party, not to him.  He hasn't even been nominated yet.

Hmmmmm. ;D

You've got to admit....things could go better.

Hookbender — Aug 27, 2008Hmmmmm. ;D

You've got to admit....things could go better.

Sure they could.  Maybe if we elect a Democrat they will.

Better for foreign countries anyway...

Hookbender — Aug 27, 2008I WILL LEARN AND UNDERSTAND THIS SHIT BEFORE I VOTE.

Republican.

And that's the important thing here.

I don't give a shit who you vote for - it is not important to me.

There is no delusion here, I've admitted I have much to learn. I've also said my interest lies with Obama because he's got my interest, and because I've always voted repub in the past. So, I'd like to discuss mostly Obama, then worry about Bush...I mean McCain.

It is obvious you have always vote republican in the past, that's not a problem it is allowed.
The delusional bit is  you going through the motions  for an age now on the WH and here.
If you truly wanted to learn something about economics as to how it pertains to how you vote then instead of  "fuck the graph" it should have made you sit up and think.

I like to learn by doing, as much as by study. I don't know much about politics but everytime I jump in with both feet in these discussions, I learn something. That's the main reason I do participate in the politics part, because I want to learn.

How are you planning on  learning this stuff by doing it - play being an economist or a politician ?

Is this how they treat people with desire for knowledge where your from?

Sometimes - when they need a kick up the ass

I didn't ignore the fucking graph, I questioned it. Got a problem with that? Obviously.

Your comment was "fuck the graph"

You did not question it, you dismissed it
A comment that shows you are full of shit when you claim you want to learn.

You free thinkers get a little Christian like when your questioned, doncha?
I guess free thinking liberals don't like questions either. ;D ;D
Ever see a jackass fuck an elephant?

Now you are being honest about the real you - just wanted you to fucking admit it.
It was what Mark  was pulling you up on at the Hole - I didn't get involved much in that "debate" but I read some of it and mostly ignored it.

Now having briefly got involved and wasted my time putting stuff together trying to explain some shit to you -  I realise that there is no fucking way you're voting choice is going to be informed by anything other than your partisanship and prejudices - Mark was right.

I really don't give a shit who you vote for.

But let's drop the pretence you are an independent - you are fair game, if  you want to talk politics and economics you have to declare and justify your position like anyone else.

You say you want to learn by doing - well the closest to learning  by doing is making your case for voting McCain here.

Not pretending otherwise.

It really doesn't matter all that much, anyway. Alabama will go for McCain, so Hook's vote is somewhat irrelevant.  What interests me in this election is how the youth vote, and whether their turnout affects the election.  

I'm also always fascinated when people vote directly against their interests, for example, when low and middle class people vote for tax breaks on the rich.  I always have to wonder, is that wishful thinking (someday that could be me), or is it righteous indignation (sure, they made 3 million last year, but why should they pay more than us) or is it just misunderstanding (like Hook said, "I don't see any tax breaks for the rich in McCain's plan").

CraigBert — Aug 27, 2008Better for foreign countries anyway...

I'd love an explanation of that theory, since, if you look at it, Bush has been great for foreign countries, as long as they are not Iraq.  Sure, our economy tanked, but theirs didn't.  We made American vacations cheap, and American products incredibly affordable to anyone in Europe.  Is that not "better for other countries" than us?

Other countries will love any Democrat since they tend to noodle with domestic affairs and let foreign affairs go about their business.

Republicans fuck things up for the country, but mainly impact foreigners.
Democrats fuck things up for the country, but mainly impact Americans.

(Remember that my opinion is that both "parties" have fleeced the voting public into thinking that they are really different and that you need to vote for one or the other when I believe they both share a similar hidden agenda that keeps the power and money flowing to a select few while most of the original privileges the citizens had are slowing removed.)

Damn Fingers....sure seems like you care who I vote for from where I'm sitting. ;D ;D

I consider myself a Centrist, just to let you know, as I' ve stated many times.

And no....I don't have to declare anything about the candidates until I make a decision as to whom I'm voting for. I'm sure your just trying to pull it out of me, but I really haven't decided yet.

And I'd like you to explain why that graph should make up my mind in some way.

I will say this. I am leaning toward Obama. Yep, sure am. Partly because of his VP choice and partly because I think the man is worthy of a chance to change, as he says he will.

I haven't made up my mind yet for several reasons. First, I think his spending plans are rediculous. Considering the shape the countries in at this point. Second, I through out alot of questions to a mostly liberal room here with people who probably know a hell of a lot more about politics than I, and got a bunch of comparisons to Bush and the same ole shit you hear on conservative talk shows on a daily basis. I've been called a racist, as the liberal talk shows bring up all day everyday if I don't vote Obama, stupid shit like that. Well that ain't good enough. I brought up factual conserns about the man and some of his policies, your personal attacks just isn't a good response to lagiminate concerns.

My desire here is to learn, as I've also stated many times. Whether or not I "declare" who I'm voting for isn't the issue. I need to learn a little more about politics in general. If I don't bring up what I think are problems with Obama and his policies, to a liberal group of people who no more about this, then I don't learn from you. I don't get arguments that show me I'm wrong in my thinking which would lead me to vote republican again and possibly make another mistake.

In the end, the candidate has to convince me, not you. Obama hasn't done that and your attacks or calling me racist or whatever don't help my cause or Obama's.

That's why I want to watch the debates. I really think that these debates are probably the most important debates between two presidential candidates in quite a while.

So, I guess you can think whatever you want, but when I decide, in my own time who I'm voting for....I'l let ya know, O.K.?

So you and Mark can think whatever you want. I really don't give a fuck.