20 posts
Nice job, Romney. You looked good, engaged, not like a complete dick, like you actually knew some shit. This should have been you as a candidate all along.
But you sure fucked that debate up.
How did you fuck it up?
You just gave the Obama team and friendly PACs a TON of video evidence of you saying things that directly contradict things you've been saying the entire time you've been running. Not good for your reputation of "honesty".
Plus you lied a few times about some big stuff, and you bullied the moderator.
But overall, the bored wet noodle standing in for the President only got a few good points over, so I declare you the winner, even though you still fucked it up.
Tripper
Obama didn't look all that engaged, though I just watched it again on CNN with the realtime undecided voter reaction polling, which makes it look a lot more positive for Obama than I originally thought. On the other hand, Obama didn't lie all over the place... he kept it factual. I know Mitt doesn't care about fact-checkers, but fer chrissakes that guy is full of so much shit it's incredible, the NYTimes did a realtime fact check and that guy just spewed shit all day. I especially liked the part where Romney said "companies can get tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas? I've been in business for 25 years and I have no idea what he was talking about". Well then, Governor Romney, even though you seem to know a shitload about the tax code, judging from your uber-low tax rate and sweet tax shelters, you have no fucking clue. That is a simple fact that you should know.
Romney just did more. More to prove how is cannot possibly be MY candidate. I guess he needs to be compared to the flip flopping John Kerry. That guy will say fucking ANYTHING to get your vote. It's how you know he's deeply religious. Religious folks have been bullshitting themselves for ages. He figures, "Fuck they think serpents talk and a dude walked on water....surely they will believe my shit."
But the fucked up part about Kerry, if you go back and look at his campaign, is that he actually WASN'T a flip-flopper! It was just that ONE statement about the war that he explained (because it was funded properly and then the Republicans removed that part of the bill) that was the big flip-flop. Kerry's biggest problem was the fact that he overexplained everything and seemed way too out of touch for most people. Oh, that and all those lies Bush's people told about his service in Vietnam and after.
Rmoney has been more mendacious in this campaign than any presidential candidate I've ever seen - he literally will say ANYTHING to close the sale and be elected...and he did that in the debate. It'll give him a little bump, but like his running mate, more people are finding out about his lying, so combine that with the fact that I think Obama will be much better in the next two debates, and he's still way behind...
Tripper
I'd say Romney won the debate by far in every way....except one. Factual content. The most important.
I think Obama underestimated him. Obama sounded very unsure, looking at in from afar. He was really trying to watch what he said carefully or think carefully before he spoke. He was off his game for sure. He may have been more factually on, but just sounded unsure, appeared to be from watching the debate. Trying not to start a war here myself. ;D
Hookbender — Oct 07, 2012I'd say Romney won the debate by far in every way....except one. Factual content. The most important.
I think Obama underestimated him. Obama sounded very unsure, looking at in from afar. He was really trying to watch what he said carefully or think carefully before he spoke. He was off his game for sure. He may have been more factually on, but just sounded unsure, appeared to be from watching the debate. Trying not to start a war here myself. ;D
Oh, I agree with you. You did see where I called Obama a "bored wet noodle", right? I think Obama sucked ass at this debate. I just think Romney's tactic is going to backfire on him hard, and if Obama even does marginally better at the next two debates, Romney's long shot chance of winning will become almost an impossibility.
I know a lot of really ignorant people who live inside the Fox News bubble who honestly believe Romney wasn't lying or heavily bullshitting at that debate...and that's disconcerting on some level. Obama told a few canards himself, but when Obama bullshits, it's always got an element of truth there - Romney just makes shit up.
I'll take the bullshitter over the liar, thanks...still...it would be nice to see Gary Johnson and Jill Stein there. Those two would really have their way with both of the major candidates.
Tripper
Romney screwed himself in one big way--now he's going to be expected to wipe the floor with Obama at the next debate. If Obama does even decently, Romney will "lose" the debate. And I expect Obama to call him on his bullshit this time. I think there's no reason for him to be nice and respectful with Romney--the guy distorts everything Obama does, and also lays out a line of bullshit that doesn't even come close to representing his actual policies. Too bad it's a town hall debate, as far as I'm concerned those suck for actual debate material, and are only really good when someone like a Clinton is there to shine in connecting with the voters. Hard to imagine Romney or Obama connecting with anybody in an emotional way.
Truthfully though, I think the Ryan-Biden debate will be way more fun than any of the remaining presidential debates. Biden, as much as he's a loose cannon, is a wily debater. Ryan is a total unknown. Neither one is afraid to spin wild crap. Neither is actually running for president either. It should be a good time.
Well, the problem, as always, is that most people won't give a damn about what was said between debate 1 and 2. And they certainly won't consider what was factual and not factual. I'm sure the questions won't be the same nor the topics of discussion. Obama better be on his game for the last 2 or he may be riding the pine this go round.
I agree about Ryan and Biden. That should be good stuff. My prediction would be similar to the first debate. Possibly a Ryan win but Biden's ability to speak "blue collar" straight to the people may sway things his way. I really like the guy. He's very believable. Comes across as a honest dude, one of us, so to speak.
Sometimes, too honest. He's that rare politician who, when he says what he thinks, you nod your head and say, yeah, even though the news and opposition goes nuts.
That's the real difference between Romney / Obama and Biden. When Romney/Obama go off script, you scratch your head and say, WTF. When Biden goes off script, I generally find it to be refreshing. I'm not sure about Paul Ryan yet, I haven't heard him off script...
I think Biden should run for President himself. I'd probably vote him in a heart beat!!
Ryan comes of as a neo-con to me. He's further right than Romney is by far. Romney is trying to get to the middle. But that's because he's a typical baby kissing politician that will say anything. Ryan will speak his mind but he stays to the conservative agenda when I've heard him speak. Romney will have to reel him in because he is more appealing only to right wing fundies. Everytime I've heard Ryan speak I cringe. The idea that Romney would pick him.....made have less respect for Romney.
I don't understand Romney. "Severe conservative" when it was primary season, picked Paul Ryan? Rob Portman would be a way better pick, far less conservative, a better speaker, doesn't look like he has a secret serial killer life in his closet. Then, after being super conservative, and picking the uber conservative for VP, he became a Democrat? And now he's at least saying that all of his policies are not what they are, he won't give tax cuts to the rich, he won't cut medicare, he won't touch social security?
In the end I think it's not so much a problem with Romney as it is with the Republican Party. They've completely lost it. Real, conservative, solid congresspeople and senators are getting knocked out of their primaries by right-wing tea party wingnuts, pushing the party further and further to the right. The Republican primary was ludicrous this year... a true "moderate" like Romney becoming a bible-thumping, rights-crushing conservative for 6 months? Stupid.
I honestly don't think Romney's evil or even all that hardcore of a right-winger. I just think his economic policies are horrific... lowering taxes, deregulating, removing oversight... at best, these are shortsighted policies that have never proven to provide any sort of lasting growth for anyone but upper incomes. At worst, they are dangerous. This is a person who learned nothing from the financial crisis... who believes that business doing whatever it wants is how our economy functions best. It's as if he can't remember 2007. And that, to me, is a dangerous way to approach a very tenuous and tricky economy.
Everything about both parties is changing. The republicans are moving way the fuck to the right, and the democrats are moving slightly to the right as well. Thats what I see anyway.
As far as taxes go, there isn't a right move, or safe move with taxes. We are in the middle of a storm and any move will be painful. Raise taxes, painful.... lower taxes, painful.... leave taxes as they are, painful.
The government has to get smaller and quit spending fucking money it doesn't have. I know, Obama has done some of that. But not nearly enough of it. We need to quit giving other countries money period, unless it's to help in a disaster of some kind to help civilians. Shit loads of spending cuts need to be made right now.
I damn sure don't have all the answers, but common sense stuff surely should have been done long ago.
I still think the country would do way better if we were to eliminate the lifers in the congress and senate. This would probably help our economy in the long run more than anything else.
When you look at it on the surface, I think the one thing Romney has done brilliantly is to not specify anything. He hasn't laid down a single concrete plan. He has laid down a lot of vague plans, but nothing at all specific. This serves a double duty... no one can pin him down on his plans... exhibit a: the debate, where every time Obama brought up Romney's vague plans, he could say "that's not my plan" or "my plan supports x,y, and z". Because his plan is "secret" no one knows what it is. When he's pinned down in interviews, he says "I don't want to dictate to Congress". The second duty it serves is to make him immune to "broken promises"... because, honestly, what promise has he made in this campaign? What campaign promise does he have to break? There's not a single concrete plan I can point to. Sure he says he wants to lower taxes, and cut deductions, but he's backtracked on that and obfuscated on the cuts so many times no one has a clue what he wants to do. Sure, he's said he wants to be stronger on defense (and by the way, if you want us to stay non-interventionis, and think Romney's your president, you aren't paying attention--he thinks getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan is a mistake, and it looks like he wants to bomb Iran and invade Syria).
The scariest thing about Romney is that he doesn't want to "interfere" with Congress. Because if there's one body of fucked up right wing nutcases out there, it's Congress. And if he plans to just get elected, then rubber stamp every piece of legislation they put forward, our country is going hard right, fast.
For a while, I thought he would lose on being nonspecific. Now I think he's managed to get into a competitive race, and still hasn't mentioned a specific plan for anything. So it proves one thing... you don't need plans, as long as you are very good at criticizing the other guy.
Hookbender — Oct 09, 2012Everything about both parties is changing. The republicans are moving way the fuck to the right, and the democrats are moving slightly to the right as well. Thats what I see anyway.
As far as taxes go, there isn't a right move, or safe move with taxes. We are in the middle of a storm and any move will be painful. Raise taxes, painful.... lower taxes, painful.... leave taxes as they are, painful.
One thing I will argue here. There is no benefit from lowering the taxes of the super-rich. Look, for example, at Mitt Romney himself. He pays 13-14% in taxes. He makes 20+ million a year. Does he take that low tax rate, and then use his money to hire people? No. He sits on it. It sits in investment accounts. Being rich, and getting a lower or higher tax rate, doesn't affect a goddam thing. He could fund multiple small businesses, put hundreds, even thousands of people to work, just on the INTEREST he makes every year. Not even touching his capital. But he doesn't. And if he was paying 20%? Same difference. No more or less jobs. He's not employing anyone! 5% tax rate? Same thing. He's still not employing anyone.
No one seems to be aware that most rich people just sit on their money. They earn it and it goes into their accounts and grows. It's not buying more workers. There aren't a whole lot of Bill Gates' out there, saving the world with their massive multi-billion dollar charities. And there aren't a bunch of random rich dudes out there worrying about paying another percent in taxes, and thinking they can't hire now.
https://www.google.com/search?q=completely+wrong&hl=en&pws=0&prmd=imvnsu&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=hct1ULbENaiziQKr04D4DA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=976
charger — Oct 10, 2012[quote author=Hookbender link=1349325212/0#12 date=1349823894]Everything about both parties is changing. The republicans are moving way the fuck to the right, and the democrats are moving slightly to the right as well. Thats what I see anyway.
As far as taxes go, there isn't a right move, or safe move with taxes. We are in the middle of a storm and any move will be painful. Raise taxes, painful.... lower taxes, painful.... leave taxes as they are, painful.
One thing I will argue here. There is no benefit from lowering the taxes of the super-rich. Look, for example, at Mitt Romney himself. He pays 13-14% in taxes. He makes 20+ million a year. Does he take that low tax rate, and then use his money to hire people? No. He sits on it. It sits in investment accounts. Being rich, and getting a lower or higher tax rate, doesn't affect a goddam thing. He could fund multiple small businesses, put hundreds, even thousands of people to work, just on the INTEREST he makes every year. Not even touching his capital. But he doesn't. And if he was paying 20%? Same difference. No more or less jobs. He's not employing anyone! 5% tax rate? Same thing. He's still not employing anyone.
No one seems to be aware that most rich people just sit on their money. They earn it and it goes into their accounts and grows. It's not buying more workers. There aren't a whole lot of Bill Gates' out there, saving the world with their massive multi-billion dollar charities. And there aren't a bunch of random rich dudes out there worrying about paying another percent in taxes, and thinking they can't hire now.
I think you worry way to much about how much Romney has "earned" from year to year. It makes no damn difference. How much in personal taxes he pays on a personal level is in no way a sign of how he will act and make decisions for the entire country. He did a legal thing and took advantage of our tax system, paid as little as possible. So??? It's not a crime Charger. It's legal. He's already paid in more taxes than my entire family will ever pay in, plus some. I guess he paid in more than about 20 folks and took big risk at some point that paid off, for everyone. You, me, roads, healthcare, etc. Not a bad deal for anyone in that, is there?
I'm not saying anything about that. I'm saying that he literally disproves his whole point... that lowering tax rates creates jobs. Because he's got a lower tax rate than just about everyone I know, he's making 12 million a year just in interest! he hasn't even worked a day since 2007! And what's he do with that money? does he hire a shitload of people? no, he sits on it. Cutting or raising taxes on the rich won't do shit. It makes no difference in whether they hire or not. So, why not raise their tax rate? Raise it to our rate? Why doesn;t Romney pay 24% like I do? I'd be thrilled if he paid 10%, but hired 500 people instead. But he doesn't. He sits on his money. And that's the problem with the entire argument that lowering taxes on the rich creates jobs.
Well, did he actually state that he would lower taxes on the rich with that exact intention, to create jobs? Gotta ask.
Slam dunk, Biden. No contest.