The Watering Hole

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jMtvzhUJmkDwVPsjJ0vhp-MDl1-gD9359Q2O0

"Analysis: McCain's claims skirt facts, test voters"

I suppose we'll discover just how many Americans are like you and me (who like facts) and how many are like Randy...who make them up.
Tripper

This is interesting... and it's from Fox News.  The title of the article is not really very indicative of the content... but I think Hookbender will find this interesting.

I think McCain is runing a pretty good race here. He is counting on average voters that do not do any reasearch, so he keeps on with the keep on. It's bullshit, but it's working.

If the media is truely liberal, or at least a majoriety is, they really need to lay off Palin and go after McCain. To the untrained eye, or people who take politicians at their word with no research or anything, Palin is tearing the dems a new ass. She's really connecting with the public well regardless of how factual her comments are. She handles herself well, she's a women, she speaks with some confidence....I'd lay off her. Not only that, she is the star of this campaign now. She's all over the news everyday, even more than Obama and McCain. If the media keeps putting her in the spotlight, it could be bad news for the dems and Obama.

I'm 42 years old and this is the first time I've really done any research at all. I know a lot of people, I guess, are not like me, but a number are. Meaning they don't check things out and find out the truth. I would say most people are similar to Tripper and vote on emotion. If that's true, the emotion votes will probably go to McCain and Palin as the media has pounched on Palin pretty hard. And...I think she's handled it well, especially to people who don't check out what she says.

Take this Bush doctrine thing. She didn't know what it was. Who cares. To most Americans, the Bush doctrine has ruined this country. It's a failure to most. So....who cares???

One of the biggest mess ups to me is when she answered the question about NATO and how easily she said war with Russia would be a strong possibility. That shouldn't even be discussed right now. The republican go to war mindset it stuck in her thick skull I see.

I wasn't implying you don't research Trip, I was talking about emotional votes or voters in general. I do know that you are well informed!  :)

However, you are ignoring the facts some, or lack of. Your kinda voting for Obama knowing he can't get done what he say's he will. Kinda going agaist your logical, skeptical traits a tad.

Insightful post Hook - I agree with you

Thanks Fingers. :)

Hookbender — Sep 13, 2008I think McCain is runing a pretty good race here. He is counting on average voters that do not do any reasearch, so he keeps on with the keep on. It's bullshit, but it's working.

Well, at least we agree on that.

If the media is truely liberal, or at least a majoriety is, they really need to lay off Palin and go after McCain. To the untrained eye, or people who take politicians at their word with no research or anything, Palin is tearing the dems a new ass. She's really connecting with the public well regardless of how factual her comments are. She handles herself well, she's a women, she speaks with some confidence....I'd lay off her.

She's hanging herself among thinking people with her ignorance, so it's time to focus on "king bullshit artist" for a while.

Not only that, she is the star of this campaign now. She's all over the news everyday, even more than Obama and McCain. If the media keeps putting her in the spotlight, it could be bad news for the dems and Obama.

It won't last.

I'm 42 years old and this is the first time I've really done any research at all. I know a lot of people, I guess, are not like me, but a number are. Meaning they don't check things out and find out the truth. I would say most people are similar to Tripper and vote on emotion.

This is such a bullshit statement, and you know it. I know my shit. I am much more informed than the average voter. My choice has nothing to do with emotion. I'm voting for Obama because he's the least shitty choice we have, especially considering he actually gives a shit about reason and rationality.

It's like you're running some sort of Rovian lie campaign against my credibility. Why? Seriously? Because I've ripped your head off when you've made moronic comments? It's kind of pathetic, actually.

If that's true, the emotion votes will probably go to McCain and Palin as the media has pounched on Palin pretty hard. And...I think she's handled it well, especially to people who don't check out what she says.

Well, yeah, but that's because they're not intellectually curious enough to actually learn the truth. She looked like Miss Teen South Carolina in that beauty pageant when she was asked about the Bush Doctrine. I was waiting for her to call us "U.S. Americans" and talk about "The Iraq".

Take this Bush doctrine thing. She didn't know what it was. Who cares. To most Americans, the Bush doctrine has ruined this country. It's a failure to most. So....who cares???

Apparently you don't even know what it is, or why it's important, so let me fill you in. The Bush Doctrine is the doctrine of pre-emptive war. It is war by choice, when we decide that a country is an aggressor, we can attack them without being attacked - without even an imminent threat! This is the most stunning change in American foreign policy in its history, and you act as though it means nothing only because you, like Sarah Palin, had no fucking clue what it was.

One of the biggest mess ups to me is when she answered the question about NATO and how easily she said war with Russia would be a strong possibility. That shouldn't even be discussed right now. The republican go to war mindset it stuck in her thick skull I see.

They're both warmongers. That's a problem. We can't afford that shit, and it actually makes us less safe, because economically it makes us more beholden to those who hold our debts.

I wasn't implying you don't research Trip, I was talking about emotional votes or voters in general. I do know that you are well informed!  :)

Well, that's good. But don't try to claim my choice of Obama is emotional, because that's bullshit. It's logical, rational, and comes from my extensive research into the histories, policies, and temperament of both men.

However, you are ignoring the facts some, or lack of.

Please state which ones I'm ignoring. I doubt you can, and I will address any that you manage to list.

Your kinda voting for Obama knowing he can't get done what he say's he will. Kinda going agaist your logical, skeptical traits a tad.

Neither candidate will be able to accomplish everything they want. You're focusing on this like it's some sort of sweeping, fundamental belief of mine about Obama. It's the REALISTIC way to look at what happens when Presidents are elected. They don't always get to do what they want - they try their best, they work as hard as they can, and they try to make things happen. Do I believe Obama will be successful at MOST of what he wants to do? Sure. That might come off as a flip-flop if my last statement on the issue wasn't clear, but do I EXPECT him to be successful? Nope. Because I'm hopeful, but not stupid.

It's weird you keep focusing on it the way you do. I do believe Obama will surprise everyone, once they get to actually know him. I also think that people who choose to educate themselves via chain e-mails, right-wing smears, McCain campaign videos, and Sarah Palin interviews will never know him. But I don't necessarily expect anything. Look at what happened with Bill Clinton when he got in office...he signed NAFTA and went apeshit over the gays in the military thing. Pissed his supporters off like nothing else...I know because my wife was one - she actually went door-to-door for him.

I married her anyway...
Tripper

Trip

I'm not running a campaign against you for any reason. I respect your opinion and have learned much from you. Don't know why you would think that.???

The bottom line....you think Obama lays down a good speech, you think he speaks well, he's not fat, looks good in a suit, so what???

Your voting for a guy based on the hope that he can get something done, yet you say he won't be able to get most of his desires done. So, he lying to ya. And your eatin it up. You can put lipstick on a pig..... ;)

I know what the Bushy doctrine is.....and it's a failure imo. You waisted your typing time my brotha. My point was made very clearly....who cares what the Bush doctrine is or what his healthcare desire was, or what kind of soap he uses. It doesn't matter, now does it?

If I were running for President, I'd worry and dial in on my desires to better the country. My ideas, hopes, and plans.....not the previous President's failures. They are useless.

Hookbender — Sep 15, 2008Trip

I'm not running a campaign against you for any reason. I respect your opinion and have learned much from you. Don't know why you would think that.???

The bottom line....you think Obama lays down a good speech, you think he speaks well, he's not fat, looks good in a suit, so what???

Your voting for a guy based on the hope that he can get something done, yet you say he won't be able to get most of his desires done. So, he lying to ya. And your eatin it up. You can put lipstick on a pig..... ;)

I know what the Bushy doctrine is.....and it's a failure imo. You waisted your typing time my brotha. My point was made very clearly....who cares what the Bush doctrine is or what his healthcare desire was, or what kind of soap he uses. It doesn't matter, now does it?

If I were running for President, I'd worry and dial in on my desires to better the country. My ideas, hopes, and plans.....not the previous President's failures. They are useless.

Very honestly, I think Obama is the most transcendent figure to reach this point ever.  I think he's a person and a politician on the scale of Kennedy.  All the rest of it to me, is not relevant.  I have always said, and never made any bones or illusions about it... I want someone extraordinary as my president.  I want someone who I can look at and say "I couldn't have done that, and no one else could have, either.  That person is way beyond normal, that person is extraordinary."  

I think McCain borders on the extraordinary. He has a compelling story.  He was a POW.  He has differed with his party (though, not enough for my taste).

But I think Obama exceeds everyone else who was in this race from the beginning.  He is an extraordinarily powerful speaker, that rare type of person who can make people who don't even like his politics stand up and take notice of his speaking.  Speaking is something I value in a politician, especially a president.  It is what I liked about Clinton.  It was the best feature of Reagan.  JFK was the master, turning an ordinary speech on an ordinary issue into a rhetorical masterpiece.  He also has not just a compelling story, but possibly the most compelling for a president, ever.  Went from being the son of a single mother, with an African name and, yes, black skin, sometimes relying on welfare and food stamps, to Harvard, editor of the Harvard Law Review by his sophomore year, a huge leap, to working on grassroots politics, becoming a lawyer in the area of civil rights, then state senator, then US senator.  No matter how you contextualize it, that is an amazing path to the candidacy for president.  

I think he can do great things.  The problem with America is that you have to get elected first.  And Obama has to get elected to do the great things I think he can do.  

I don't think McCain will do great things.  I really don't.  I think he will muddle through.  I think his time to be great was 8 years ago, and Karl Rove sunk him by spreading all sorts of ridiculous rumors... in one primary, Rove spread a rumor that McCain had an illegitimate black child.  How ridiculous is that?  Yet it stuck with enough voters to end his candidacy.  The John McCain who is running today has made a huge shift... it may not seem huge to you, but he has gone over to the right wing so hard, there is no turning back.  His pandering to the base makes him incapable of being the man he could have been.  It's sad, but the truth is in the last 8 years, he's become old and now all he wants is to win, not in the ways or for the reasons he used to want.

If Obama loses, he's like 40 years old... He will live to do more great things.  It's the country I think will pay more of a price than him.

charger — Sep 15, 2008 ... in one primary, Rove spread a rumor that McCain had an illegitimate black child.

Maybe McCain is Obama's daddy?  

I think Obama can do great things to Charger. I'm just not so sure he can do those great things as President. He may have a better chance as a senator or something else.

One overlooked, imo, problem we have today is congress. Man they are just horrible. And really the congress before them were bad to. All they did was fight and argue.

Can you believe we have two candidates that haven't even mentioned our countries debt? They ignore it.

I think Obama is a real good person. However, he's made some mistakes that are just so crazy for a politician to make....I just don't understand. Like the Rev Wright thing. He had to know that one day that dog was gonna bite him in the ass.

However, he is a human being. And we all make mistakes and we all do what we consider at the time to be the right thing. So, a pass can be afforded him.

His change campaign....took a total shit when he picked Biden. I really like him and think he's a good choice, but he doesn't really represent change, imo.

And Obama's campaign mgr, whoever he is, should be fired today. McCain is showing Obama how to play his game. He has effectively stolen Obama's theme. He's picked a vp that to the untrained eye.....is change. Change has been placed in the mind of voters....but by McCain not Obama.

I still want to see the debates. They will either be complete bullshit, or possibly the best debates America has seen in quite some time. For me, Obama can earn my vote during these debates. I will honestly be paying him and what he says a lot of attention. More so than McCain, to be honest with you.

I was thinking the other day.....see what you think about this.

What if Obama picked the wrong time to run. I mean....do you think maybe that 4 years from now would have been better for him? Especially if McCain got elected?

Just wondered what your thoughts on that would be. I kinda think he'd be the President for sure at that time. 4 years as President will age McCain big time. Not sure he would even want another 4 years.

I think if it's a narrow loss, Obama could run and win in 4 years.  Problem is, then he would be running against Sarah Palin, the political world's new biggest celebrity...

Hookbender — Sep 15, 2008Trip

I'm not running a campaign against you for any reason. I respect your opinion and have learned much from you. Don't know why you would think that.???

The way you respond to my posts tends to ignore the points I make, and you keep emphasizing things I've already addressed and put aside. That seems like a campaign - just keep saying it until people think it's true.

The bottom line....you think Obama lays down a good speech, you think he speaks well, he's not fat, looks good in a suit, so what???

Your voting for a guy based on the hope that he can get something done, yet you say he won't be able to get most of his desires done. So, he lying to ya. And your eatin it up. You can put lipstick on a pig..... ;)

Sexist! (ha ha ha) I don't think he's lying to me. I think he has the best ideas, and I want him to have a shot to implement them. What about that is so hard to understand?

I know what the Bushy doctrine is.....and it's a failure imo. You waisted your typing time my brotha. My point was made very clearly....who cares what the Bush doctrine is or what his healthcare desire was, or what kind of soap he uses. It doesn't matter, now does it?

It DOES matter - she should have known what it was. That was my point. Any politician who's paid any real attention to this world in the past six years knows what the Bush Doctrine is, no matter which side of it they take. She's not qualified because she's not inquisitive enough. Blind faith does that to people.

If I were running for President, I'd worry and dial in on my desires to better the country. My ideas, hopes, and plans.....not the previous President's failures. They are useless.

If you think Obama's only talked about the flaws of what we've got, you haven't been paying attention to him, really.

Tripper

Trip

If it isn't lying, what is it? Come on man.

The best ideas? An idea without a plan to implement it isn't anything at all.

I've got a idea, I want to have a million dollars in my savings account by the end of the month.

Think that's gonna happen to? I may have a few hundred by the end of the month, in reality. So my idea isn't worth $300 bucks.

Why would Obama say he's gonna do all these things if he really can't do them? You and I know he can't do it. Why doesn't he? Or....does he? If so, he's lying to get votes. Same as McCain.

So who's lying the least? Should that be the question and determining factor when deciding between the two candidates?

Not for me.

I still don't see the need for Palin to know the Bush doctrine. I guess if Russia started messing with us, she could watch us attack the fuckers from her back yard. Then she could see the Bush doctrine. You know, learn from experience. ;D Fuck the Bush doctrine. ;D ;D

Hookbender — Sep 16, 2008Trip

If it isn't lying, what is it? Come on man.

The best ideas? An idea without a plan to implement it isn't anything at all.

He does have plans. Damn, you're thick on this one.

I've got a idea, I want to have a million dollars in my savings account by the end of the month.

Think that's gonna happen to? I may have a few hundred by the end of the month, in reality. So my idea isn't worth $300 bucks.

Why would Obama say he's gonna do all these things if he really can't do them? You and I know he can't do it. Why doesn't he? Or....does he? If so, he's lying to get votes. Same as McCain.

He honestly believes he can do them. That's not lying.

So who's lying the least? Should that be the question and determining factor when deciding between the two candidates?

Not for me.

No, you focus on crazy preachers who have little to do with who Barack Obama actually is, ignoring how John McCain has turned his back on just about everything he's stood for merely to be elected.

I still don't see the need for Palin to know the Bush doctrine. I guess if Russia started messing with us, she could watch us attack the fuckers from her back yard. Then she could see the Bush doctrine. You know, learn from experience. ;D Fuck the Bush doctrine. ;D ;D

She should have known what it was...it's important. But that's not the only time she looked dumb in the interview...I'm telling you, she's great at delivering a rehearsed speech, especially one full of bullshit, but there's nothing really THERE. She's like a dingy news anchor who panics when the teleprompter craps out. "Thanks, but no thanks on that bridge - but be sure to send the money along, and send a little more for that other bridge to nowhere, too! Thanks!"

That's not the point, though. McCain's got bad or muddled ideas (because he wants to be elected and doesn't want to actually commit to anything) and no real explanation for how to implement them. You find that preferable?

Tripper

Tripper — Sep 17, 2008
She should have known what it was...it's important. But that's not the only time she looked dumb in the interview...I'm telling you, she's great at delivering a rehearsed speech, especially one full of bullshit, but there's nothing really THERE. She's like a dingy news anchor who panics when the teleprompter craps out. "Thanks, but no thanks on that bridge - but be sure to send the money along, and send a little more for that other bridge to nowhere, too! Thanks!"

I read the transcript and watched the video.  She doesn't speak correct English, and yes, that bothers me.  When you are the head of one of the two main English-speaking countries in the world, your English should be correct--simple shit, subject/verb agreement, she gets wrong.  It's embarrassing.

The Bush Doctrine?  First thing that popped into my head was preemption, followed by "spreading democracy." Honestly, I think if she had said spreading democracy or preemption, Gibson would have taken that answer... he was letting her off very easy on pretty much everything.

However, her biggest gaffs to me were elsewhere.  Russia. Her first answer "you can see Russia from an island in Alaska" is unacceptable as any sort of answer.  What the fuck does that say?  Nothing.  Her second answer, that we might have to go to war over Georgia, was also unacceptable.  You simply don't threaten, or even discuss, war with Russia.  It's fucking IDIOTIC.  Russia is a world superpower with full nuclear capability.  That is the epitome of stupidity.

Ah, but you forget something Charger!  Now that the "War On Terrorism" is getting shaky, they would love to paint Russia as the big, bad enemy like they did during the Cold War.  Having some nebulous evil brewing out there allows them to keep the military large, fund all those wonderful defense contracts and keep the Government fat and happy.

CraigBert — Sep 17, 2008Ah, but you forget something Charger!  Now that the "War On Terrorism" is getting shaky, they would love to paint Russia as the big, bad enemy like they did during the Cold War.  Having some nebulous evil brewing out there allows them to keep the military large, fund all those wonderful defense contracts and keep the Government fat and happy.

Such a good point, Craig...and good post, Charger.
Tripper

"He honestly believes he can do them. That's not lying."

So Trip...Obama believes he can do all these things, but your sure he can't do "all" of them. So, your smarter than Obama, yet he inspires you????

I'm not focused on a preacher, I didn't mention him.

CraigBert — Sep 17, 2008Ah, but you forget something Charger!  Now that the "War On Terrorism" is getting shaky, they would love to paint Russia as the big, bad enemy like they did during the Cold War.  Having some nebulous evil brewing out there allows them to keep the military large, fund all those wonderful defense contracts and keep the Government fat and happy.

There should be a War against "Wars on abstract nouns"

....and their should be a law against me being involved in a political discussion.  ;D ;D

:D