The Watering Hole

And what I can't understand is why Chase is bitching about possibly having healthcare. Fucking crazy stuff.  :-/

I'd say it's prolly cause he hasn't put in years and years of payments through an employer/s plan where you put in each paycheck only to not have to use the coverage.   He seems fresh off daddy's teat and finally facing the real world though it's not as real as he'd prefer because the hospitals are forced to not turn you away do to lack of insurance.  Like those who rail against stem cell research, he will take the treatments if/when he needs them.

Conservative thinking is the funniest when religion is involved though.  I mean it would make sense if they were all LaVey style satanists from what I have heard about that group.  I can sleep well at night knowing I am more christian than any conservative.

Jesus said love thy neighbour, but he can pay for his own fucking healthcare.

:D

I don't think Chase is a member of the god squad

http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

The U.S. spends 100 billion dollars per year to provide health services to uninsured. Holy shit.
The number of uninsured children in 2007 was 8.1 million – or 10.7 percent of all children in the U.S. Pitiful!

fingers — Jul 28, 2009Jesus said love thy neighbour, but he can pay for his own fucking healthcare.

:D

I don't think Chase is a member of the god squad

Jesus did ration his health care I guess...... but did the rich get any from him?

I'm not suggesting Chase is a member of the god squad, it was a separate point brought on mainly from watching/listening to conservative talking heads.

Hookbender — Jul 28, 2009[quote author=chase link=1248309521/25#46 date=1248752151]i know that is being extreme and alarmist and all that other bullshit but i really don't care. anyhow, this is an argument i'm bound to lose anyways. unfortunately half this country has figured out they can vote in somebody that will drain all of us dry with stupid bullshit programs. i think a quote is appropriate here

"When the people find they can vote themselves money,
that will herald the end of the republic."

Your shitting conservative smelly stuff big time. If your bound to lose this argument, why not consider the argument? Think some.


and your spewing liberal bullshit; you aren't arguing with facts but feelings. the reason i will lose this argument is roughly 45% of the population has no tax liability. thats somewhere shy of 150 million Americans. just like in the ben franklin quote i posted above, those people have figured out they can vote in a candidate to tax the ever loving shit out of the rest of the population for a free ride. this healthcare reform is just one more step down the slope. i would say somewhere in the next year or 2 a fat tax on the middle class will come down the pipes to pay for all this compassion and caring, probably looking at a VAT as well.

BINGEWOOD — Jul 28, 2009I'd say it's prolly cause he hasn't put in years and years of payments through an employer/s plan where you put in each paycheck only to not have to use the coverage.   He seems fresh off daddy's teat and finally facing the real world though it's not as real as he'd prefer because the hospitals are forced to not turn you away do to lack of insurance.  Like those who rail against stem cell research, he will take the treatments if/when he needs them.

Conservative thinking is the funniest when religion is involved though.  I mean it would make sense if they were all LaVey style satanists from what I have heard about that group.  I can sleep well at night knowing I am more christian than any conservative.

not hardly, i've been on my own roughly since 17. i have had the benefit of remaining on my parents health insurance on my way through college though. i have also had a job since 16, and will be coming up on a decade of paying into "the system" pretty soon. i don't understand the interjection of religion into this discussion. if you want to drag a red herring across this argument that's pretty pathetic.

Hookbender — Jul 28, 2009And what I can't understand is why Chase is bitching about possibly having healthcare. Fucking crazy stuff.  :-/

because i don't want my kids to pay for it.

Fenderbender — Jul 27, 2009
There is NOTHING wrong with Healthcare being paid for with taxes.  

our taxes can barely service the interest on our national debt. we will lose our ability to pay even that very soon as our debt grows and GDP shrinks. the thought that this bill would be paid for in just taxes shows how out of touch with reality you are

BINGEWOOD — Jul 28, 2009[quote author=chase link=1248309521/25#46 date=1248752151]i know that is being extreme and alarmist and all that other bullshit but i really don't care. anyhow, this is an argument i'm bound to lose anyways. unfortunately half this country has figured out they can vote in somebody that will drain all of us dry with stupid bullshit programs. i think a quote is appropriate here

"When the people find they can vote themselves money,
that will herald the end of the republic."

You can't really lose an argument you don't make.  You just keep saying something about debt and stupid draining programs.  I don't think Americans being healed would amount to a bullshit program.


 I think going into Iraq was a bullshit program and the nation not really feeling war daily, by say taxes going up not down, created something ugly and festering and might I add not paid for.  


"think about all those people who work full time yet still can't make ends meet. "   Sounds like yer one of 'em.



one thing at a time...

if you haven't caught the gist of my argument i'm sorry. here it is plainly: the US cannot afford to pay for health care for all it's citizens

next, regardless of the justifiability of the iraq war; you want to complain about the cost of it. the iraq war since its inception in 2001 has cost roughly 668 billion. want to complain about Afghanistan too? fine toss that wars bill into the middle as well. guess what? were still only at 890 billion for both wars in the last 8 years. the cost of an 8 year 2 front war is still almost 15% less than this health care monster. i am in no way making judgment one way or another as to the legitimacy of these conflicts and would appreciate it if you wouldn't either. i've lost several friends to both and am not looking to get pissed at anyone here.

and last the jab about my personal finances, i'm actually doing pretty well. just moved into a house with my girlfriend and got the mortgage situated.

I'm curious to hear what Fingers or anyone else who's already living with socialized healthcare thinks.

chase — Jul 28, 2009[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1248309521/50#51 date=1248763309]I'd say it's prolly cause he hasn't put in years and years of payments through an employer/s plan where you put in each paycheck only to not have to use the coverage.   He seems fresh off daddy's teat and finally facing the real world though it's not as real as he'd prefer because the hospitals are forced to not turn you away do to lack of insurance.  Like those who rail against stem cell research, he will take the treatments if/when he needs them.

Conservative thinking is the funniest when religion is involved though.  I mean it would make sense if they were all LaVey style satanists from what I have heard about that group.  I can sleep well at night knowing I am more christian than any conservative.

not hardly, i've been on my own roughly since 17. i have had the benefit of remaining on my parents health insurance on my way through college though. i have also had a job since 16, and will be coming up on a decade of paying into "the system" pretty soon. i don't understand the interjection of religion into this discussion. if you want to drag a red herring across this argument that's pretty pathetic.



I've been on my own starting at a similar age.  I never had the benefit of any health care from my parents nor college.  I have worked and paid into all systems as well for the years since while never using any of them even when I should have.  I don't agree with state/federal help for the most part but where it comes to health care I think conditions can get to be so far ahead of what one's success level may be at a given moment that our current system is pretty evil.  There are life changing events just waiting to fuck one over out there.  This isnt a feeling or empathy this is real world.  It has nothing to do with prevention or choices.   These are real people who each have a problem, they aren't statistics.  You may be one of them right now.  

What do you do with/to people who work hard their whole lives and are now being put out.  Look at the unemployment rate right now to see examples.  What does the 50+ year old do for his child who's insurance was through his job.  Treatments are still needed for the kid while looking for another job.  I have a friend who after working on every season of King of the Hill got laid off when the show was cancelled.  He walked into costco one day and then opened his eyes and he was in the back of an ambulance with emt's doing their thing.  He had a seizure, the first of his life.  They took him to county and found a tumor in his head, emergency surgery etc.  He was as lucky as you can get though because he was on the freeway a cpl minutes before.  Or it could have happened while he was alone at home where you could clock your head on the way down and bleed out slowly.  He was also lucky that there were paramedics eating next to the costco and he got help super fast.  Finally he is lucky that the tumor wasn't cancerous.  Chase, if this happened to you and you were found to have cancer good luck getting coverage.

The religion thing had nothing to do with you or your "argument".  It was merely pointing out something I see about religious conservatives.  I don't know/care if you are one of them.  A red herring seeks to explain while being deceptive.  I'm not seeking to explain anything there just making an observation.

chase — Jul 28, 2009
if you haven't caught the gist of my argument i'm sorry. here it is plainly: the US cannot afford to pay for health care for all it's citizens

next, regardless of the justifiability of the iraq war; you want to complain about the cost of it. the iraq war since its inception in 2001 has cost roughly 668 billion. want to complain about Afghanistan too? fine toss that wars bill into the middle as well. guess what? were still only at 890 billion for both wars in the last 8 years. the cost of an 8 year 2 front war is still almost 15% less than this health care monster. i am in no way making judgment one way or another as to the legitimacy of these conflicts and would appreciate it if you wouldn't either. i've lost several friends to both and am not looking to get pissed at anyone here.

and last the jab about my personal finances, i'm actually doing pretty well. just moved into a house with my girlfriend and got the mortgage situated.

Yes we can.  You've already managed to answer your own questions without realizing what you have typed.

1.  the hospital have to jack up prices due to insurance companies.  So get rid of insurance companies.

2.  Regulate the cost of services.  This keeps the cost the SAME for everyone and allows the cost of health care to be far cheaper than it currently is.

3.  Let the taxes pay for health care.  Not everyone has cancer.  Not everyone needs to be in a hospital so it insane to act like every American will be in the hospital all the time.  There are Americans like me that were in a hospital when they were born and after that just for check ups.  This is one place that everyone exaggerates the cost of health care.

4.  Make government transparent and CUT SHITTY PROGRAMS.  Hold politicians accountable for their actions.  Again I will bring up the point of the F-22 Raptor.  A military dud that not even the military wants.  Yet government kept it alive to create jobs in their areas.  This plane has been around for 3 wars and has never seen military time.  We have 180 of these.  At 361 million PER PLANE you can see that this program is very costly.  We are supposed to get 650 of these plane and RIGHT NOW the first 180 have cost us a total of 62 BILLION.  These are just fucking planes.  This is ONE stupid government program.  There are lots more just like it.  Get rid of the shit programs and you will have money for the GOOD ones.

5.  do you have any idea of the money generated by taxes?  It's a damn lot.  We are taxed enough to support a lot of wonderful things.  We just need to trim the fat.

chase — Jul 28, 2009[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1248309521/25#48 date=1248753676][quote author=chase link=1248309521/25#46 date=1248752151]i know that is being extreme and alarmist and all that other bullshit but i really don't care. anyhow, this is an argument i'm bound to lose anyways. unfortunately half this country has figured out they can vote in somebody that will drain all of us dry with stupid bullshit programs. i think a quote is appropriate here

"When the people find they can vote themselves money,
that will herald the end of the republic."

You can't really lose an argument you don't make.  You just keep saying something about debt and stupid draining programs.  I don't think Americans being healed would amount to a bullshit program.


 I think going into Iraq was a bullshit program and the nation not really feeling war daily, by say taxes going up not down, created something ugly and festering and might I add not paid for.  


"think about all those people who work full time yet still can't make ends meet. "   Sounds like yer one of 'em.



one thing at a time...

if you haven't caught the gist of my argument i'm sorry. here it is plainly: the US cannot afford to pay for health care for all it's citizens

next, regardless of the justifiability of the iraq war; you want to complain about the cost of it. the iraq war since its inception in 2001 has cost roughly 668 billion. want to complain about Afghanistan too? fine toss that wars bill into the middle as well. guess what? were still only at 890 billion for both wars in the last 8 years. the cost of an 8 year 2 front war is still almost 15% less than this health care monster. i am in no way making judgment one way or another as to the legitimacy of these conflicts and would appreciate it if you wouldn't either. i've lost several friends to both and am not looking to get pissed at anyone here.

and last the jab about my personal finances, i'm actually doing pretty well. just moved into a house with my girlfriend and got the mortgage situated.


I'm not taking any jab at your finances what I'm saying is that you are talking about yourself if you don't have health care.  Why don't you have health care?  You said something about your work not giving it to you though you work hard.  I've never had work give me insurance, you pay as well.  You're doing ok but why aren't you paying for your own insurance?

I'm not looking to get into the wars either.  I'm just gunna say we've all been touched personally by these wars but not in the pocketbook like we should have been.   Not in a day to day way like say WW2 and these are wars based on our own country being attacked directly.

Chase I understand that you feel the money to keep people alive isn't there.  I appreciate your honesty.  Like I said earlier "Some of you will have to die and it may be a horrible slow death"  You might think differnt if it was yer old lady who about to die in front of you.  I sort of agree with you that people in this country might need to see India style dead bodies hanging out in the sun.  At the very least it might help network television.

It comes down to this.  You are either willing to let people die in the streets, or you are not.  You are either willing to let that person who collapses in Costco get treatment in a hospital, regardless of his insurance status, or you are not.  

Chase, you are clearly a person who believes what very few of the population believe--that among our rights and responsibilities as people is not the care of others.  Since most people disagree with you, you are correct--you cannot win this argument.  Behind your argument of "it's too expensive" is the real crux of your argument--"it's too expensive, and I don't believe we need to take care of anyone but ourselves."

I really hope that nothing that requires medical intervention ever happens to you, and I really hope that if it does happen to you, the people who give you that medical intervention think as the majority thinks, and not as you think.

CraigBert — Jul 28, 2009I'm curious to hear what Fingers or anyone else who's already living with socialized healthcare thinks.

Well the NHS is far from perfect - but my experience of it has been mainly positive, professional, top quality people and facilities - mainly second hand through others - and "touch wood" on that and long may that remain to be the case.

The really interesting thing about this thread for me has been browsing around out of curiosity trying to compare the US and UK systems.

two things.

1. For all its perceived faults over here - the NHS is much cheaper and provides better care for the vast majority of  citizens. The US middle class would be benefit most from reform - the rich would pay for privilege care in any case and both they and the uninsured  would have to contribute through taxes.

2. The fact that the NHS is being cited in the US "debate" by the right wing commentators in the US in an amazing tirade of abuse and lies.


About #1. -  Doesn't really surprise me - the old joke in the big London teaching hospitals used to be this
The difference between  private and NHS.

One looks like a world class hotel connected to a clinic the other looks like a prison connected to a world class medical facility.
A question of priorities.

I have a relative who is a cardiac surgeon - when he did private work they had to pay a local NHS hospital to reserve emergency resources in the event of "complications".

Private health is mostly about personal convenience in the UK - when things get really serious - Queen or Pauper - you end up in the NHS.


Now #2 was really entertaining - If Stratman was still knocking around here he would have spewed some of this crap already, and being Stratman would have trucked no correction from me or any of the Brits here about it.
The intensity of the passionate lying is quite incredible and I don't mean incredible in terms of the lies - they are clearly incredible, it is the madness and vitriol these lies are espoused - they simply "hate" the NHS with a passion.

What's it ever done to them ?

I more than suspect that they fear the NHS - damn something socialist actually looking like it works better and is fucking cheaper - it has to be wrong, ideologically speaking.

I have been  privileged to watch/read/listen to these fuckers lying through their teeth

The general upshot is that NHS care  is no better than 3rd world and that the medical industry is way behind because of "socialism"

Which means

A. That Brits are a remarkably naturally healthy population  who despite the "3rd world" care manage  longevity stats that  exceed the US.
B. that the third biggest pharma company in the world GSK is British another AstroZeneca is at #8 and pharma makes up a sizable proportion of the UK economy.

Nope it is a third world nightmare.

I thought, probably like most people in the UK due to the perpetual debate here in the media and politically that the NHS  might be actually be a bit
shit.

But as it turns out is I have learnt two things

1. The NHS is actually remarkably good and remarkably cheap and the medical industry here is world class.
2  Public debate in the US is so distorted by lies from the rabid ideological right wing  to effectively make it impossible.

Upshot is I  am far more positive about the NHS now than I was a week ago. :)

For all  it's faults, I am really glad I live in a country with a national health system.

I feel sorry for you in fact - having to worry about such a thing on a personal level financially.
I particularly hate the fact that health care insurance is tied to employment.
Lose your job - lose your healthcare cover - That is simply a  "sick" way to do things.

The fact you are also spending 16% of GDP (twice as much as the UK) on it is incredible.

I doubt there is country in the world who would want to model their health care system on the US -
outside of a third world one, where the system would be designed for the benefit of a corrupt elite.


The standard of care possible in the US is obviously great, it is world class - like in Europe.

However - turning the US rabid right point around - it is actually the US which has the third world health care system.

reform it = save money and get better health care for at least 95% of you with peace of mind.

The other thing that gets ignored - in the UK or Europe, nobody worries about these things - it is simply not an issue,
You simply assume you will be taken care of.

It is horrible you have to worry about these things,

chase — Jul 28, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1248309521/25#49 date=1248760872][quote author=chase link=1248309521/25#46 date=1248752151]i know that is being extreme and alarmist and all that other bullshit but i really don't care. anyhow, this is an argument i'm bound to lose anyways. unfortunately half this country has figured out they can vote in somebody that will drain all of us dry with stupid bullshit programs. i think a quote is appropriate here

"When the people find they can vote themselves money,
that will herald the end of the republic."

Your shitting conservative smelly stuff big time. If your bound to lose this argument, why not consider the argument? Think some.


and your spewing liberal bullshit; you aren't arguing with facts but feelings. the reason i will lose this argument is roughly 45% of the population has no tax liability. thats somewhere shy of 150 million Americans. just like in the ben franklin quote i posted above, those people have figured out they can vote in a candidate to tax the ever loving shit out of the rest of the population for a free ride. this healthcare reform is just one more step down the slope. i would say somewhere in the next year or 2 a fat tax on the middle class will come down the pipes to pay for all this compassion and caring, probably looking at a VAT as well.

You don't think all people needing healthcare is a fact? I've given you cost of people uninsured. That's a fact. Your ignoring facts obviously.

And I'm not really liberal. I'm more liberal than I've ever been in the past because as early as last year I've always been 100% conservative. But I don't care about those name tags. I care about doing what's right and caring about people....more than money.

And yeah your right, people falling on hard times do that on purpose and most have nothing but a free ride on the back of government on their mind. :o Jesus man, come on. :(

chase — Jul 28, 2009[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1248309521/25#48 date=1248753676][quote author=chase link=1248309521/25#46 date=1248752151]i know that is being extreme and alarmist and all that other bullshit but i really don't care. anyhow, this is an argument i'm bound to lose anyways. unfortunately half this country has figured out they can vote in somebody that will drain all of us dry with stupid bullshit programs. i think a quote is appropriate here

"When the people find they can vote themselves money,
that will herald the end of the republic."

You can't really lose an argument you don't make.  You just keep saying something about debt and stupid draining programs.  I don't think Americans being healed would amount to a bullshit program.


 I think going into Iraq was a bullshit program and the nation not really feeling war daily, by say taxes going up not down, created something ugly and festering and might I add not paid for.  


"think about all those people who work full time yet still can't make ends meet. "   Sounds like yer one of 'em.



one thing at a time...

if you haven't caught the gist of my argument i'm sorry. here it is plainly: the US cannot afford to pay for health care for all it's citizens

next, regardless of the justifiability of the iraq war; you want to complain about the cost of it. the iraq war since its inception in 2001 has cost roughly 668 billion. want to complain about Afghanistan too? fine toss that wars bill into the middle as well. guess what? were still only at 890 billion for both wars in the last 8 years. the cost of an 8 year 2 front war is still almost 15% less than this health care monster. i am in no way making judgment one way or another as to the legitimacy of these conflicts and would appreciate it if you wouldn't either. i've lost several friends to both and am not looking to get pissed at anyone here.

and last the jab about my personal finances, i'm actually doing pretty well. just moved into a house with my girlfriend and got the mortgage situated.


And since 2001 we've spent around 8 billion on people who are uninsured. Your point is?

ironsheep — Jul 28, 2009
fingers... regarding lobbyists - think about who is -not- facing a government reaming right now and that's your answer... trial lawyers.

well, so much for this theory... or they read my post and are complaining to look good. ;)

http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/222212-trial-lawyers-face-tort-reform-danger-zone-in-health-care-overhaul-says-lobbyist

CraigBert — Jul 28, 2009I'm curious to hear what Fingers or anyone else who's already living with socialized healthcare thinks.

From my own personal perspective I think that our national health service in the UK is brilliant. OK, it has some problems, but the overal concept is extremely good and without it I would have been either hugely in debt or dead.  As you may or may not know, I am diabetic and have been for 8 years...it was my 40th birthday present.  OK diebetes can be controlled, and mine is controlled very well with drugs.  The value of my drugs is somewhere in the region of $400 per month, but because of the national health service it costs me absolutely nothing....I don't pay a penny for it.  Of course, that's not strictly true as I pay my national insurance contributions to the government along with everyone else, but it is a system that works.  I have had stays in hospital in the past, didn't cost me a penny.  My father had many operations over the years...didn't cost a penny.  My mother had hospital care and she was diabetic too....didn't cost a penny.

It is absolutely necessary that a country should look after its citizens and provide that which is needed to them in times of crisis when they need it.  I think it is shameful that someone should have to ruin their life with debt through no real fault of their own.

I'm curious, what happens in the US if you are extremely ill in hospital and have no means of paying for your care?  Are you simply sent home again?

One final thought:  Why would anyone not want a system where healthcare was free to all?  I can't get my head around that at all


Jon

Amen brother!!!

But people like Chase just love the possibility and drama of possibly of getting sick and losing everything they have hanging over their head. Either that, or they enjoy gambling with their own life or quality of life.

I can't imagine going to the hospital and not having to worry about the bill the whole time I'm there. Or, having to pay for the medication it takes to maintain after the stay.

My father in law just had a heart attack and the whole time he was in the hospital he worried himself sick over having to pay the bills. Surprised he didn't have another one. And he has insurance. That's the problem or part of it. Even having insurance in the U.S. doesn't really mean shit sometimes. You still have high bills and stuff uncovered.

We have a broke ass fucked up system and the more I read about it, the more it makes me want this bill passed. It's no guarantee that it will be the cure all, but damn we need to try something. And I think Obama is really giving this a good go.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/health_care_overhaul

Getting closer!!!!! :)

Jon — Jul 29, 2009
I'm curious, what happens in the US if you are extremely ill in hospital and have no means of paying for your care?  Are you simply sent home again?

What I think I know about it (I may have some misconceptions - I'm not an expert)...

Hospitals have to treat you when you show up, by law.

You're on the hook for the bill, though.

If you can't pay at all (poor, indigent, illegal), Medicaid reimburses the hospital at some (low) percentage of the cost. I think this applies up to about 2x the poverty level income but I don't really know (it's likely below that). Medicaid is funded and administered by the states and, I think, they get federal subsidies too.

If you can pay some but not all, you can work out a payment plan with the hospital, combined with Medicaid if you qualify.

We have Medicaid for the very poor and Medicare for the very old... but they're both essentially reimbursement plans. The government only runs one health system as far as I know, the Veteran's Administration. Very mixed reviews on the quality there - but it's free to the military/vets (afaik).

Jon


http://www.breastcancer.org/tips/paying/no_insurance.jsp

Hookbender — Jul 29, 2009Amen brother!!!

But people like Chase just love the possibility and drama of possibly of getting sick and losing everything they have hanging over their head. Either that, or they enjoy gambling with their own life or quality of life.

you hit the nail on the head. i'm a sadist

(or you could read the previous 2 pages on why i don't think it's a good idea to get nationalized healthcare going right now

I did. You think we can't afford it. So what? Not a good reason. We spend 100 billion a year on people who can't afford insurance. We can't afford not to. Got anything else?  

uh oh, looks like middle class taxes will be the way to go after all.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090803/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_economy

Chase, you keep saying it's not a good time.  It's never been a good time.  And for you, with your philosophy, it never will be a good time.  You simply don't believe in the concept at all.  So you can probably stop arguing that it's about the current economic climate...

there is little doubt in my mind that it will pass in one form or another regardless of what i think is prudent. after the fact when taxes on the middle class go up, possibly a VAT, and god knows what else to fund these programs is instituted people will look back and start to wonder if it was such a good idea. in short, most people think it is a good idea (as evidenced by the election of obama who made health care reform a cornerstone of his campaign) but have little knowledge of what it will take to sustain such a program. i think i can agree with you that i should probably stop debating this though. we both understand eachother

chase — Aug 03, 2009uh oh, looks like middle class taxes will be the way to go after all.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090803/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_economy

Probably not.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090803/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_taxes

My opinion on it is unchanged.  Do I like having lower taxes than Europeans?  Yeah, I do.  Do I realize that we pay for this care, anyway, but instead of actually paying for it in taxes, we just charge it off to states and fuck them all to hell because of it?  Yeah, I realize that.  One way or another, we pay for it.  

I'm going to stand by my stance on this, which has not changed, and will not change.  I am unwilling to let people die in the streets, and willing to pay my fair share to make sure we don't sink to that level.

I just really don't give a damn how we pay for it. I think this is way more important than GM. I think this should have been first on the list though.

How can anyone put a price tag on helping people who suffer when they don't have to? We help people who suffer in other countries, why not fix our own problem first? Second or whenever?

Hookbender — Aug 03, 2009I just really don't give a damn how we pay for it. I think this is way more important than GM. I think this should have been first on the list though.

How can anyone put a price tag on helping people who suffer when they don't have to? We help people who suffer in other countries, why not fix our own problem first? Second or whenever?

Exactly.  It's hard to claim the flag for "greatest country in the world" when you don't have a good health care system in place while piddely countries do.  

I'd atther pay it in taxes than inflated like I do now.  I work FOR the government and my insurance is ridiculous.   MY wife works for another country.  Her insurance is vastly cheaper than my government provided system and covers far more stuff.

If she lost her job and I had to insure my family on my schools insurance......we'd be broke FAST.  I currently participate in a flex plan that cover all the co pays for my wifes insurance.....meaning it virtually free at this rate.  

I think teachers and their family should have free insurance period. Other than the actual parents, teachers can be the second most positive influence on children. To me, that's pretty damn huge. Of course, good teachers can't be paid enough, and surely are not.

Hookbender — Aug 03, 2009I just really don't give a damn how we pay for it.

well that's good. this ought to put things in perspective

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

this deserves it's own thread

Hookbender — Aug 04, 2009I think teachers and their family should have free insurance period. Other than the actual parents, teachers can be the second most positive influence on children. To me, that's pretty damn huge. Of course, good teachers can't be paid enough, and surely are not.

While I appreciate what you are saying I don't think it is right to single out a group for a free ride.  Certainly teachers aren't paid what they are worth and thus it is harder and harder to keep good ones as they tend to find other things in life that pay more.  I think the national turn over rate for teachers is 5 years at this point.  That's not good.

But at any rate....there is no good reason why we can't trim the fat out of the budget and put in place a heatlh care system that helps everyone.

That's the thing that pisses me off the most about Obama....it's the one thing I have really wanted and that was his promise to go line by line through the budget and trim the fat.  The issue is the greedy senators who have things wrapped up in hte budget that helps their state and they realize cutting that funding hurts their state in some way, thus they fight to keep it.  

From my point of view we as Americans know the system is broken and it's in dire need for a change.  We are goign to have to man up and sacrifice certain things now so that we can afford more important things.  Once we do that we can balance the budget and bring in whatever we need that was cut later.

I just think our children are America's future. I think that teachers are more to students, the good one's, than a person to give test and teach about just what the test covers. The good one's do much more than that, imo. If America's future is to improve, our school system must provide the tools of improvement to our children. That is a huge task. A very important one.

If we take care of our teachers, our teachers will take care of our children. If we take care of our healthcare system, fix it or at least improve it by getting uninsured folk insured, we help America's future also.

I just don't like our teachers just getting by and one serious illness away from losing all they have. I don't want them worrying about that. I want their mind on their job, my child. Our children's preparedness.

What would happen if Doctors had teachers salaries? Ya know?

http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/

"A measure of society and the individuals with in it should not be how fast our car goes, how much fat we stuff in our face in a single sitting, or how much wealth/possions an individual can accrue in a lifetime.
The true measure of a society and the individuals with in it  is recognition, compassion, care GIVEN to those in need and provision of opportunities for the indivual to obtain their full potential"