The Watering Hole

Is it just me or is Obama kinda losing control or at least some confidence? It doesn't help that things like this Joe Wilson saying you lie to the President gets 90% of airtime with Fox. >:( Doesn't seem to be looking to good for the President right now.

Yes, indeedy...the Stratmans of the world are multiplying the BIG STUPID (health reform BAD) with ferocity...and all smart people (the sentient beings of this country, like Obama) can do is go, "What the FUCK is wrong with you people?"

I don't think Obama's confidence is fading one bit. I think he's being smart and not inflaming the racist, scared white people more. If he came back strong, they'd snip it to bits and make it look like he was calling for a war against the white...sorry...the RIGHT.

But that's just me being inflammatory.

I'm tired of old white people being scared and angry. Obama's not going to ruin this country...these people are...because they're so resistant to any change this person presents that they'd cut their own nose off to spite their face.

Fucking idiots.
Tripper

I think your pretty much correct.

However, our money spending is out of control. Yeah, maybe we needed to at this point, but that sure isn't helping Obama's cause. To say Bush spent more % wise and other repubs spent this is just not an argument.

I can only hope that Obama is a complete or at least partial success for America's sake. The politics in America have surely reached an all-time low. I wish I never even started getting interested in it. It's embarrassing.

It's a shame we can't do what's best for people in need because one party or the other will get credit for it.....instead of our government getting credit for it, our country, our people.

Our government is the most stupid, ignorant group of educated fucks I've ever seen.

Frankly I am amazed we had a quarter of positive growth... meaning the technical end of the recession... and Obama's only been in office three quarters.  If this is real, and Obama really pulled it off, it's kind of hard to argue that he isn't absolutely kicking ass.  All the rest of it... well, I think it's quite a feat for the "loyal opposition" to somehow make it appear that a very vocal minority is actually the majority.  The truth is, these people never got over Obama's victory and haven't stopped crying for two seconds since, and when he gets reelected in 2012 they're still going to be in disbelief...

Here's hoping they decide this isn't their country anymore and they move somewhere else. ;)

Tripper

Well, with  Obama's success, we still have a huge debt. The single scary thing about Obama is that there seems to be no concern with the debt. We simply can't keep spending money we don't have. Even if we need something. We're in deep shit no matter the status of the recession.

I agree that we shouldn't be spending as much as we are.  However, I feel a whole lot better about spending money and getting something than spending something and getting nothing, like we did with Bush.  Fact is, Bush spent more than anyone else before him, and what did we get for it?  A fucking recession, and the barest glimmer of democracy in Iraq.  Obama is getting money spent on actual useful projects.  

Look at cash for clunkers... not only was it a way to get the economy jolted, but there is a real benefit to getting people to up their car mileage.  I saw a breakdown of this somewhere that was totally fascinating...

lemme see if I can restate it sensibly...

Okay, say person A gets 30 MPG, and person B gets 15 MPG.  They both commute 60 miles a day.  Person A uses 2 gallons a day.  Person B uses 4.  
Say person A upgrades to a car that gets 45 miles to the gallon.  Net savings? 1/2 gallon a day.  
Person B trades in the clunker for a car that gets a modest 22 miles to the gallon.  He's still driving some big, fairly inefficient car... BUT, person B is actually making a more positive change for the environment.  Not overall, but... by upgrading to 22 MPG, he now uses 2.7 gallons per day on his commute.  That means he's now using 1.3 gallons less per day.  Person A would have to go from 30 MPG to 100 MPG to effect the same level of change.

That seems to have been the rationale to cash to clunkers, and why they allowed people to upgrade to cars with as little as 20-something MPG.  Small changes can have big effects...

Yeah, I understand. But it also increased the debt for the people who took advantage of this program which is partly why we are in the mess we're in right now. And to make a significant change in how much fuel we use as a whole would require years of this program and our housing problems are way more significant right now than the fuel we use. IMO, this was a failed attempt to get the economy moving because it had a temporary effect. Once the program went away, so did the car sales. And for this to be a real attempt to help the economy, well, would be more costly than it's worth, probably.

I like the long term plans Obama has to help the economy, such as healthcare, for example. Something that has a chance to be a permanent help for the economy.

I admit, I don't have a clue as to how to fix the housing problem. Other than to let the market take care of this fuck up and make changes that will not allow this to happen again. If that's possible.

well isn't this a nice circle jerk....

Tripper — Sep 15, 2009Yes, indeedy...the Stratmans of the world are multiplying the BIG STUPID (health reform BAD) with ferocity...and all smart people (the sentient beings of this country, like Obama) can do is go, "What the FUCK is wrong with you people?"

I don't think Obama's confidence is fading one bit. I think he's being smart and not inflaming the racist, scared white people more. If he came back strong, they'd snip it to bits and make it look like he was calling for a war against the white...sorry...the RIGHT.

But that's just me being inflammatory.

I'm tired of old white people being scared and angry. Obama's not going to ruin this country...these people are...because they're so resistant to any change this person presents that they'd cut their own nose off to spite their face.

Fucking idiots.
Tripper

taking a page from the carter playbook? newsflash.... if obama was white i would feel the exact same way. playing the race card is pathetic

charger — Sep 18, 2009I agree that we shouldn't be spending as much as we are.  However, I feel a whole lot better about spending money and getting something than spending something and getting nothing, like we did with Bush.  Fact is, Bush spent more than anyone else before him, and what did we get for it?  A fucking recession, and the barest glimmer of democracy in Iraq.  Obama is getting money spent on actual useful projects.  

Look at cash for clunkers... not only was it a way to get the economy jolted, but there is a real benefit to getting people to up their car mileage.  I saw a breakdown of this somewhere that was totally fascinating...

lemme see if I can restate it sensibly...

Okay, say person A gets 30 MPG, and person B gets 15 MPG.  They both commute 60 miles a day.  Person A uses 2 gallons a day.  Person B uses 4.  
Say person A upgrades to a car that gets 45 miles to the gallon.  Net savings? 1/2 gallon a day.  
Person B trades in the clunker for a car that gets a modest 22 miles to the gallon.  He's still driving some big, fairly inefficient car... BUT, person B is actually making a more positive change for the environment.  Not overall, but... by upgrading to 22 MPG, he now uses 2.7 gallons per day on his commute.  That means he's now using 1.3 gallons less per day.  Person A would have to go from 30 MPG to 100 MPG to effect the same level of change.

That seems to have been the rationale to cash to clunkers, and why they allowed people to upgrade to cars with as little as 20-something MPG.  Small changes can have big effects...

try this math on for size...

A “clunker” that gets 15mpg and travels 12,000 miles per year, consumes 800 gallons of gasoline per year

o    A new “fuel-efficient” vehicle that gets 25mpg and travels 12,000 miles per year, consumes 480 gallons of gasoline per year

o    The average clunker transaction reduces US gasoline consumption by 320 gallons/year

o    With 700,000 vehicles participating in this program, that’s 224 million gallons/year saved because of this program – roughly 5 million barrels of oil/year

o    5 million barrels costs about $375 million at $75/barrel

o    The “Cash for Clunkers” costs $3 billion

YIPPIIEEEEE!!!!!! we spent 3 billion to save 375 million the first year. maybe in 10 years this program will pay itself off. of wait, the program provided a subsidy for cars that would most likely not be on the road another 5 years, much less 10.

not to mention the enormous "pull forward" of auto purchasing we just created. think car sales will lag in the foreseeable future? i do...

Hookbender — Sep 19, 2009Yeah, I understand. But it also increased the debt for the people who took advantage of this program which is partly why we are in the mess we're in right now. And to make a significant change in how much fuel we use as a whole would require years of this program and our housing problems are way more significant right now than the fuel we use. IMO, this was a failed attempt to get the economy moving because it had a temporary effect. Once the program went away, so did the car sales. And for this to be a real attempt to help the economy, well, would be more costly than it's worth, probably.

I like the long term plans Obama has to help the economy, such as healthcare, for example. Something that has a chance to be a permanent help for the economy.

I admit, I don't have a clue as to how to fix the housing problem. Other than to let the market take care of this fuck up and make changes that will not allow this to happen again. If that's possible.

here's a radical idea for the government... pull its presence back and let the market recover. will it cause a depression? almost certainly, but thats about unavoidable now.

yes i'm one of those crazies who would like to see capitalism and the free market work to right themselves. their will be some very tough times ahead, but that is necessary and unavoidable. our alternative is a fucking collapse if this dollar bubble were blowing comes home to roost. the writing is on the wall for us and we aren't paying attention.

china has changed positions on US debt, the UN is calling for a new reserve currency, and were still printing greenbacks like its 1998...

Hookbender — Sep 15, 2009I think your pretty much correct.

However, our money spending is out of control. Yeah, maybe we needed to at this point, but that sure isn't helping Obama's cause. To say Bush spent more % wise and other repubs spent this is just not an argument.

I can only hope that Obama is a complete or at least partial success for America's sake. The politics in America have surely reached an all-time low. I wish I never even started getting interested in it. It's embarrassing.

It's a shame we can't do what's best for people in need because one party or the other will get credit for it.....instead of our government getting credit for it, our country, our people.

Our government is the most stupid, ignorant group of educated fucks I've ever seen.

winner winner chicken dinner. when the dust settles and we look back obama will outspend 8 years of bush II AT LEAST 2x. he is on pace for more than that right now in 4 years. and that is given the big assumption that the recession/depression is over and we are on our way back up

Tripper — Sep 15, 2009Yes, indeedy...the Stratmans of the world are multiplying the BIG STUPID (health reform BAD) with ferocity...and all smart people (the sentient beings of this country, like Obama) can do is go, "What the FUCK is wrong with you people?"

I don't think Obama's confidence is fading one bit. I think he's being smart and not inflaming the racist, scared white people more. If he came back strong, they'd snip it to bits and make it look like he was calling for a war against the white...sorry...the RIGHT.

But that's just me being inflammatory.

I'm tired of old white people being scared and angry. Obama's not going to ruin this country...these people are...because they're so resistant to any change this person presents that they'd cut their own nose off to spite their face.

Fucking idiots.
Tripper

are you that out of touch with real people? do you surround yourself with ultra liberal friends to make yourself feel better? 56 percent of americans oppose healthcare reform

source = http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

that racism bullshit your spewing? seems only 12 percent of americans agree with you. could it be that you are the one out of touch with reality? maybe the constituents aren't racist, they just want one less government program running their lives...

source = http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/12_say_most_opponents_of_obama_health_care_plan_are_racist

i hereby submit the fact that you are the "fucking idiot"

Hey Chase:

What part of this quote...

Tripper — Sep 15, 2009But that's just me being inflammatory

...did you not understand?

And are you denying the reality that there are people who hate Obama because they're racist?
Are you denying the reality that we have a lot of ignorant people in this country who don't even understand the difference between what Obama's proposed, and Socialism, Fascism, Communism, and Nazism?
Are you also denying the reality that many of these people don't really have specifics about what they're angry about, and tend to say things like "my country is slipping away from me"?

Here's more inflammatory speech:
And you call ME a fucking idiot? Read my posts, understand the context, and maybe next time you won't look like such a fucking fool in your responses.

I know that's really hard for someone as enamored with the religion of the free market as you, and gullible enough to believe the GOP lies that the proposed reform amounts to a "government takeover of healthcare" as you alluded to in your post.

But my experience is you guys usually suck balls at context and reading comprehension, so I can understand why you think I'm the fucking idiot.

:)
Tripper

"56 percent of americans oppose healthcare reform"

Well no. The truth is that 56%, if that's actually a correct figure, oppose what fox news has said is Obama's plan. Which isn't Obama's plan at all. Hint...Government is not going to completely take over healthcare and that was never the actual proposal from Obama.

But keep listening to ole Rushy and maybe you too can smoke an over priced cigar after taking a few pain killers together. ;)

Wonder if 56% of the conservative people in that figure actually give a damn about the people in need of healthcare? I doubt it.

Hookbender — Sep 21, 2009"56 percent of americans oppose healthcare reform"

Well no. The truth is that 56%, if that's actually a correct figure, oppose what fox news has said is Obama's plan. Which isn't Obama's plan at all. Hint...Government is not going to completely take over healthcare and that was never the actual proposal from Obama.

But keep listening to ole Rushy and maybe you too can smoke an over priced cigar after taking a few pain killers together. ;)

Wonder if 56% of the conservative people in that figure actually give a damn about the people in need of healthcare? I doubt it.

never listened to rush before. i don't consider myself a republican anymore.

i read the actual bill when it first came out, so fox has nothing to do with my interpretation of it. did you read the bill? or was it just a few highlights...

now your claiming bias in the rasmussen polls? pretty desperate

Tripper — Sep 20, 2009Hey Chase:

What part of this quote...
[quote author=Tripper link=1252971319/0#1 date=1252979126]But that's just me being inflammatory

...did you not understand?

And are you denying the reality that there are people who hate Obama because they're racist?
Are you denying the reality that we have a lot of ignorant people in this country who don't even understand the difference between what Obama's proposed, and Socialism, Fascism, Communism, and Nazism?
Are you also denying the reality that many of these people don't really have specifics about what they're angry about, and tend to say things like "my country is slipping away from me"?

Here's more inflammatory speech:
And you call ME a fucking idiot? Read my posts, understand the context, and maybe next time you won't look like such a fucking fool in your responses.

I know that's really hard for someone as enamored with the religion of the free market as you, and gullible enough to believe the GOP lies that the proposed reform amounts to a "government takeover of healthcare" as you alluded to in your post.

But my experience is you guys usually suck balls at context and reading comprehension, so I can understand why you think I'm the fucking idiot.

:)
Tripper
I too can be inflammatory...

chase — Sep 20, 2009

are you that out of touch with real people? do you surround yourself with ultra liberal friends to make yourself feel better? 56 percent of americans oppose healthcare reform

source = http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

that racism bullshit your spewing? seems only 12 percent of americans agree with you. could it be that you are the one out of touch with reality? maybe the constituents aren't racist, they just want one less government program running their lives...

muaaaaaahahaha!

Pots and blackness, chase. You were the one "out of touch with real people" on election night.  By your own definition, above. Frankly I can't figure out how you feel about thinking for one's self. Seems like you think we should always agree with the majority. Well, how many people do you honestly think hold your views?  Why don't you just go along with the majority... and not just on what they happen to agree with you on, but on EVERYTHING?  Why not?  Why would anyone ever hold another view?

I believe in universal, government-supported health care, because I believe it is the right thing to do, not because I am a liberal.  Just about every government in Europe does it and none of those countries have exploded or fallen into the sea or been struck by Thor's awesome hammer of doom.

As for the rasmussen report, did you read it?  I found this part the most ironic.
"Voters overwhelmingly believe that every American should be able to buy the same health insurance plan that Congress has. "
Seems like the people polled for this stuff have no fucking clue what they think...
source = http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/12_say_most_opponents_of_obama_health_care_plan_are_racist

By the way, if you want a much more nuanced idea of what American's think if health care, check out the Bloomberg poll from September 10-14 '09.  To me, it's totally fascinating... for example, this question:

Turning now to health care, in general, do you favor or oppose
President Obama’s plan for health care reform?  (Follow with:)
Do you (FAVOR/OPPOSE) strongly or just (FAVOR/OPPOSE)?

24 - Favor strongly
24 - Just favor
12 - Just oppose
30 - Oppose strongly
10 - Not sure

... puts it at about even (48-42 with 10% undecided).

However, further down in the poll, Medicare (a government-run health care program, for those just joining us) gets a 79% net favorable!  

And there is much more.  If you want to get details, instead of "oppose/support", this is a pretty deep poll that illustrates well the confusion I think people have over this issue.

I think the health care debate is a total mockery.  I don't think people have a clue what they are opposing.  But that's nothing new with the media barrage that's been going nonstop now on this for months.

chase — Sep 21, 2009

i don't consider myself a republican anymore.

You and much of the party but I'm guessin' you'll still vote publi.  Beck, Dobbs, O'Reilly etc. make similar independent or libertarian claims like they voted fer Nader or any nonpublican.  Just curious, when did you quit?

As for polling, it shows the possible opinion of people dumb/lonely enough to answer a poll and rasmussen is always right tilted.  Lotza NuIndys to poll as well...

chase — Sep 21, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1252971319/0#16 date=1253496185]"56 percent of americans oppose healthcare reform"

Well no. The truth is that 56%, if that's actually a correct figure, oppose what fox news has said is Obama's plan. Which isn't Obama's plan at all. Hint...Government is not going to completely take over healthcare and that was never the actual proposal from Obama.

But keep listening to ole Rushy and maybe you too can smoke an over priced cigar after taking a few pain killers together. ;)

Wonder if 56% of the conservative people in that figure actually give a damn about the people in need of healthcare? I doubt it.

never listened to rush before. i don't consider myself a republican anymore.

i read the actual bill when it first came out, so fox has nothing to do with my interpretation of it. did you read the bill? or was it just a few highlights...

now your claiming bias in the rasmussen polls? pretty desperate

I've got a news flash for ya, your still conservative.

I didn't claim your poll was anything at all.

Crazy thing to me is that you don't have healthcare. Your one sickness away from losing everything you have and you strongly oppose help for yourself in the way of a means to afford quality healthcare.

This is a fairly old article. It illustrates what Charger says about people not knowing what they oppose. Misleading, Half true, and false, claims being thrown around in the media. You can't read something and make up an interpretation of it and claim it to be true.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/twenty-six-lies-about-hr-3200/