The Watering Hole

I have to admit, as a left-wing nutjob, I find Obama to be a little more moderate than I would like.  

Sotomayor, while certainly intellectual and capable, is not a hard-left pick.  She's moderate, like Obama.  And there were definitely much more left justices I would have liked.  

Closing Guantanamo--we all know it needs to happen--I don't see why the Democrats are shooting Obama in the foot on this.  So we bring terrorists to the US for detention and trial... Who gives a shit?  It makes me laugh my ass off that US Congresspeople think these folks are so frigging scary that they can't even be held in our prisons.  Gimme a fucking break!  Any time Germany finds a Nazi war criminal, they fight like mad to get them back to their country for trial.  And we've certainly got prisons so secure that no one has ever escaped.  Although this is really a congress issue, and not an Obama issue, I think he needs to step up and take these arguments forcefully to the public.  The American people are afraid of these hardened terrorists, and against them coming here to stand trial?  So what, have some fucking nuts and tell the people what the fuck is going on.  I'd rather have a president sometimes be forceful and be somewhat unpopular for it, then to finesse his argument all fucking month.

And lastly, military tribunals for suspected terrorists/Abu Ghraib photos.  I'm sorry, but you simply can't campaign on an issue and then change your mind because you don't want to make America look unpopular.  There is nothing that looks more enlightened than truly open government and free press, and open trials.  Instead, we look like we have shit to hide.  That's not change, that's the same old shit.

Don't get me wrong, I think Obama is doing fantastically well considering the shitstorm he walked into.  But I'd like him to be a little fucking liberal.  He's not going to get any points with the people who hate him by being moderate.

charger — May 27, 2009I have to admit, as a left-wing nutjob, I find Obama to be a little more moderate than I would like.  

Sotomayor, while certainly intellectual and capable, is not a hard-left pick.  She's moderate, like Obama.  And there were definitely much more left justices I would have liked.  

Closing Guantanamo--we all know it needs to happen--I don't see why the Democrats are shooting Obama in the foot on this.  So we bring terrorists to the US for detention and trial... Who gives a shit?  It makes me laugh my ass off that US Congresspeople think these folks are so frigging scary that they can't even be held in our prisons.  Gimme a fucking break!  Any time Germany finds a Nazi war criminal, they fight like mad to get them back to their country for trial.  And we've certainly got prisons so secure that no one has ever escaped.  Although this is really a congress issue, and not an Obama issue, I think he needs to step up and take these arguments forcefully to the public.  The American people are afraid of these hardened terrorists, and against them coming here to stand trial?  So what, have some fucking nuts and tell the people what the fuck is going on.  I'd rather have a president sometimes be forceful and be somewhat unpopular for it, then to finesse his argument all fucking month.

And lastly, military tribunals for suspected terrorists/Abu Ghraib photos.  I'm sorry, but you simply can't campaign on an issue and then change your mind because you don't want to make America look unpopular.  There is nothing that looks more enlightened than truly open government and free press, and open trials.  Instead, we look like we have shit to hide.  That's not change, that's the same old shit.

Don't get me wrong, I think Obama is doing fantastically well considering the shitstorm he walked into.  But I'd like him to be a little fucking liberal.  He's not going to get any points with the people who hate him by being moderate.

Hmmmm, I kinda like his moderate-ness. Duh. ;D ;D

I think he picked Sotomayer to do just what you eluded to....extend Obama's views or policies.

The good thing about the terrorist coming here to our jails is that they probably will be killed in the jails.  We certainly wouldn't sentence them to death. How dare us be so cruel. What will be cruel is that you and I, the tax payer, will have to spend an additional 30 plus grand a year on these fuckers. And that is my only objection to them being brought here.

I think I'll have to give Obama a pass on the flip flop. Things that happen during war are not pretty. Remember, changing one's mind about something with additional or factual information isn't always a bad thing. He has much more information now than he did when he was running for President. Imagine that.....me defending Obama. :-?

My only problem with Obama is that he seems to be becoming a Hollywood President. Sorta trying to please everyone.

I would be much more concerned about the spending of money Obama is doing. Look at GM, for example. It's a never ending money pit the government is insistent on saving for some reason. We've already given them billions and their still facing bankruptcy. Shit, let them vanish. Move the fuck on.

Hookbender — May 27, 2009
The good thing about the terrorist coming here to our jails is that they probably will be killed in the jails.

They're not going to be in general population...they'll be in supermax prisons in solitary confinement.

We certainly wouldn't sentence them to death. How dare us be so cruel.

Yeah, these SUSPECTS don't deserve trials or anything...fuck due process.

What will be cruel is that you and I, the tax payer, will have to spend an additional 30 plus grand a year on these fuckers. And that is my only objection to them being brought here.

Who the fuck do you think is paying for them now, Cuba? Worse yet, we're paying at MILITARY price-gouging rates...(which might even be higher than standard prison profiteering rates)?

Think before you type, seriously...
Tripper

charger — May 27, 2009I have to admit, as a left-wing nutjob, I find Obama to be a little more moderate than I would like.  

Sotomayor, while certainly intellectual and capable, is not a hard-left pick.  She's moderate, like Obama.  And there were definitely much more left justices I would have liked.  

I'm with you on that one...but I respect her respect for the law.

Closing Guantanamo--we all know it needs to happen--I don't see why the Democrats are shooting Obama in the foot on this. So we bring terrorists to the US for detention and trial... Who gives a shit?  It makes me laugh my ass off that US Congresspeople think these folks are so frigging scary that they can't even be held in our prisons.  Gimme a fucking break!  Any time Germany finds a Nazi war criminal, they fight like mad to get them back to their country for trial.  And we've certainly got prisons so secure that no one has ever escaped.  Although this is really a congress issue, and not an Obama issue, I think he needs to step up and take these arguments forcefully to the public.  The American people are afraid of these hardened terrorists, and against them coming here to stand trial?  So what, have some fucking nuts and tell the people what the fuck is going on.  I'd rather have a president sometimes be forceful and be somewhat unpopular for it, then to finesse his argument all fucking month.

Yeah, that's been pissing me off, too. Obama has to just say, "anyone who thinks our supermax prisons can't handle the terrorist suspects is just being ignorant and partisan. Guantanamo, though it has become quite an excellent prison, needs to close because of what it represents - the United States not living up to its standards of civil rights and the law. It is an icon for jihadist recruiters and as long as it is open, it is threatening our security."

And lastly, military tribunals for suspected terrorists/Abu Ghraib photos.  I'm sorry, but you simply can't campaign on an issue and then change your mind because you don't want to make America look unpopular.  There is nothing that looks more enlightened than truly open government and free press, and open trials.  Instead, we look like we have shit to hide.  That's not change, that's the same old shit.

But we do have shit to hide...apparently some of this stuff is horrid. I do agree that tribunals are not the answer. Trials are the answer.

Don't get me wrong, I think Obama is doing fantastically well considering the shitstorm he walked into.  But I'd like him to be a little fucking liberal.  He's not going to get any points with the people who hate him by being moderate.

But people who are just okay with him are pretty pleased with his moderation. And there are a lot of those people in this country. Personally, I think he should just come out and say that the GOP is lying when they're lying about something. I'm tired of this "politics-as-usual" over-wrought "respectfulness" from the Democrats. Call a liar a liar - and many Republicans are liars (Dick Cheney?). Stop allowing them to act as though their bullshit is "just another opinion". It isn't - it's cancerous to reason and reality.

I think Obama's done an okay job, I think he needs to be tougher and more politically fearless. He's not going to alienate people if he tells the truth, supports his ideas with good evidence and facts, and moves forward boldly.

The GOP echo chamber is still out there, still poisoning discourse with their endless partisan stupidity. The Democrats aren't doing enough to prove they deserve to be in power. Harry Reid needs to step aside and let someone with more sack be in charge.

I fucking hate these two stupid parties and our party system. It just makes our politics even dumber than politics inherently is.
Tripper

Tripper — May 28, 2009 I fucking hate these two stupid parties and our party system. It just makes our politics even dumber than politics inherently is.

I nominate this for quote of the month! :)

CraigBert — May 28, 2009[quote author=Tripper link=1243461805/0#3 date=1243529143] I fucking hate these two stupid parties and our party system. It just makes our politics even dumber than politics inherently is.

I nominate this for quote of the month! :)




Thanks, Craig. We may have disagreed on the fine points of things from time to time, Craig, but I've always been with you 100% on this one...

I've been anti-partisan since long before I could even vote.
Tripper

Tripper — May 28, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1243461805/0#1 date=1243466937]
The good thing about the terrorist coming here to our jails is that they probably will be killed in the jails.

They're not going to be in general population...they'll be in supermax prisons in solitary confinement.

We certainly wouldn't sentence them to death. How dare us be so cruel.

Yeah, these SUSPECTS don't deserve trials or anything...fuck due process.

What will be cruel is that you and I, the tax payer, will have to spend an additional 30 plus grand a year on these fuckers. And that is my only objection to them being brought here.

Who the fuck do you think is paying for them now, Cuba? Worse yet, we're paying at MILITARY price-gouging rates...(which might even be higher than standard prison profiteering rates)?

Think before you type, seriously...
Tripper


Brilliant one....if the terrorist had a life sentence.....wouldn't that sentence come or be ordered through their trial? Really man....pay attention to what you read, please.

So, we should close this multi-million dollar prison and bring these idiots that "ARE FOUND GUILTY" here......why, exactly? Even democrats appose closing the prison, some at least. And for the few who don't get life, or short sentences...then they can come to your house and kill your family in the name of Allah. That will give you another reason to kick around religion I guess. Now don't take the family thing as any bad wishes on my part, it was just an example. I certanily wish nothing bad to happen to you or yours....or anyone for that matter.

http://www.krdo.com/Global/story.asp?S=10409100

Inmates held in the prison in Florence include Zacarias Moussaoui, a Sept. 11 conspirator; Ramzi Yousef, mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center attack; and Richard Reid, who tried to blow up a trans-Atlantic jetliner with a shoe bomb.

If it can hold Zacarias Moussaoui, what's the fucking problem?

Maybe Coloradoans are scared to death of it?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=a5m613heJyK4

Actually, they asked for it. Folks in and near Florence took up a collection in the 1980s so they could buy the land to give the government to locate the prison there.

Please, they said, put it in our backyard.

They wanted the jobs, almost 1,000 positions to staff the four prisons within the federal complex.

“We were under no misconception they were going to fill it with kindergarteners,” says Florence Mayor Bart Hall.

Isn’t it scary having all those America-hating, bomb- building convicts out there? We are talking about a quiet, politically conservative, three-stop-light bedroom community with 3,600 residents and a single main street.

“Most of us don’t lock our doors, either to our cars or our house,” Mayor Hall said over the phone.

Even democrats appose closing the prison, some at least.

Because they are fucking tools to the reelection cycle, and fear idiots campaigning on their "softness" will make them lose.  

If bringing criminals to trial in the country they offended is so bad, why do the Germans keep fighting so damn hard to get Nazi war criminals back into Germany and into their justice system?

I oppose the terrorist being in this country for any reason, unless it's temporary....as in trial.

But... a lot of them are already here.  Some 300+ in our prisons.  The best example, of course, being Moussaoui, "the 20th hijacker".  

Charles Manson is in prison here.  Gary Ridgway (the Green River killer) has admitted to killing 48 people, and may have killed many more, and he's in the lowly Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla.

What's your criteria for not incarcerating them here?  Better yet, what is your reasoning?

charger — Jun 10, 2009But... a lot of them are already here.  Some 300+ in our prisons.  The best example, of course, being Moussaoui, "the 20th hijacker".  

Charles Manson is in prison here.  Gary Ridgway (the Green River killer) has admitted to killing 48 people, and may have killed many more, and he's in the lowly Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla.

What's your criteria for not incarcerating them here?  Better yet, what is your reasoning?

Very simple.

Charles Manson should be dead himself. Same with Gary Ridgway. Once these people have been convicted of murder, they should have no choice of what to do with them. They should be executed in some painless way. They should be dead.

To burden the tax payer with these people is simply insane. We pay to house them in a jail, all their medical needs, food, clothing, and dental care. We pay for the guards that are at the prison, the heat and air conditioning, basketball courts, weight rooms, T.V. and whatever else they have. A friend of mine works at a Federal prison that houses 850 pieces of shit. Their budget is near 1 billion a year. At least that's what he said......that's crazy. He's a nurse and has actually had to take care of prisoners that have had cosmetic surgery to repair a gun shot wound he received during his robberies. The list goes on and on. You simply wouldn't believe some of the shit he's told me. Not sure if I do, to be honest with you.

If the terrorist, or prisoners, are not charged with some murder of some kind, let em go. Why should we jail them here for 5 or 10 years?

I'm not saying or implying that I have the perfect solutions to the problem. I'm suggesting the use of a little common sense, that's all.

And just because some terrorist are already here, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. That's a very poor argument. Kinda irrelevant, IMO.

A prison with 850 inmates has a budget of a billion!
That is over a million a year per prisoner.

Dig out their accounts Hook :)

Authorities need to respect basic human rights,  provide enough to maintain decent physical and mental health.

That goes beyond the issue of punishment, it is about the executive power of a state remaining subject to the laws it is enforcing and decency.
It is fundamental to any notion of a free country.

But that said.

Whenever you see prison documentaries - it usually looks a far from "luxury" place, the biggest problem and stress on inmates is other inmates.

The thing that gets me is the weights.

Usual thing is scenes of gangs working out together to be better thugs and prey on other inmates.
Why give these fuckers weights to pump themselves up,

No human right involved.

A billion sounds way out there to me to. But that includes everything. Medicine, medical care....even things like cancer treatment, employees....everything. So, it may not be so wild a figure.

If someone kills someone, why should they be kept in a pin for life? That's no way to live. It creates other problems. Depression, anger, etc. Then we have to medically treat the symptoms of being in prison. It's a never ending expense. No reason to keep these people alive.

Figures I have heard are somewhere around 30-40k per year to house a prisoner in a maximum security prison.  So your friend's prison at 1.x million per prisoner is way fucked up.  I think that's either him not having math skills, or maybe he's talking about the budget for a whole complex of prisons.

Anyway, that's a major digression.  We house terrorists, serial killers, and the like in our stateside prisons now, and we don't expect any of them to escape.  We need to close the prison in Gunatanamo because it is a disgrace to the fundamental nature of our government and our justice system.  Therefore, if we want to keep those prisoners, they need to come here.  Arguing that we should discard the Constitution and give everyone convicted of murder a death sentence completely misses the point.  I'm not talking about discarding our justice system.  Instead, I'm talking about actually using it... instead of using a foreign country obscured from the light of day to hide our dirty work.

Hookbender — Jun 10, 2009 Once these people have been convicted of murder, they should have no choice of what to do with them. They should be executed in some painless way. They should be dead.

Pretty simple actually.  You'd better make DAMN sure that they're guilty or you'll be frying innocent people (yes some of them are found out to actually be innocent - even after 20+ years of being in jail).  So if you accidentally put some one to death who later turns out to be not guilty, does that mean that you are now a killer?

As for the billion, that's just silly talk.  A million probably wouldn't be a huge stretch though (I've heard $35k per year per prisoner - right in line with what Charger said - then add in building and staff maintenance and there you go).

Oh yeah, don't get me started about what they give the prisoners either!  Prisons aren't supposed to be training and exercise facilities with your friends.  Cut out the weights, smoking, drugs, and TV (unless it's educational).  Provide them with whatever is needed to get a job when they get out instead.  I keep hearing about inmates complaining about their conditions.  Well, stay the fuck out of jail then!

If I'm not mistaken, holding these prisoners til the end of the war is pretty common. Not sure this will ever end though.

And on that point....are we suppose to send every terrorist we capture to America, give them a sweet little trial, then put them in our prison system? If so, we better start building a big number of prisons. Cause this war, or whatever it is, could go on for a long time.

Which "war" are you referring to?  Heck, you do know that even the Korean war isn't over right?  We're only still in the middle of a negotiated cease fire...

Well, that's the problem with the "war on terror" and "prisoners of war"... It's a war on a concept.  It is entirely conceivable that there will always be terrorism, so it is entirely conceivable that this war will never end.  That means, we will have prisoners of this war, potentially, forever.  That is the fucking problem.  The only thing that we're pretty damn sure of is that we can't keep stockpiling prisoners in Cuba.

We really need a war on incompetence...