#1 · Jul 31, 2009 02:28 UTC
#2 · Jul 31, 2009 02:47 UTC
Warning you? Who? What did you warn whoever about?
#3 · Jul 31, 2009 06:23 UTC
chase — Jul 24, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1248309521/0#11 date=1248388483]Chase....Do you think our current healthcare system is better than the one Obama has plans for?
If so, you must not care about people, human beings, suffering needlessly. That pretty much sums it up.
Whatever Obama comes up with now will be a stepping stone to perfect, or better, the system down the road. I think we need to start improving right now.
People need proper healthcare and they should receive it.
Can you put a price tag on human suffering as you sit here typing with insurance and access to any doctor you choose at any time? I can't make myself care how much it cost.
i don't have health insurance currently, that should tell you how much i disagree with this plan. let me clarify my argument a bit as i haven't been very clear
1- WE CAN'T AFFORD IT. im coming across as in inconsiderate asshole, but i'm a realist. look at our bond situation and tell me that our foreign investors want us to add another trillion into the mix. as it is now the fed is the largest purchaser of government debt. that is a seriously fucked up situation.
2- its unconstitutional in its current state- it's damn near impossible to read it all, but do what you can. i devoted several hours to skimming it and what is inside scares me.
3- i have no faith in our governments ability to do a better job than the current free market system. does it have flaws? definitely
but lets fix the issues that need fixing NOW before dealing with things that are fucked up and broken, but can wait. if we don't fix our debt problem this healthcare reform won't get off the ground before people abandon the dollar. don't believe me? the fed has scheduled 235 BILLION in auctions THIS WEEK! thats on rate for 12 trillion in new debt in 1 year. medicare/medicaid is on rate for bankruptcy in a decade. how many trillions in new debt will our investors take on? not 10 years worth for damn sure
#4 · Jul 31, 2009 06:23 UTC
chase — Jul 24, 2009[quote author=charger link=1248309521/0#12 date=1248392885]We're also making money on our bailout investments. I heard yesterday that on the investments in the banks we bailed out that paid us back, we made an almost 12% rate of return. That's insane. That's money going right into the treasury, paying us back on our investment.
cool. i'll give you a trillion dollar stimulus tab for your hypothetical 12 percent return on the whole thing, not just tarp funds
1000000000000 x .12 = 120,000,000,000 120 billion which isn't chump change. compare it to our deficit spending habits (completely ignoring our debt) and the scale of how broke we are begins to dawn on you.
2.3 trillion deficit THIS YEAR!!!!! the overstated hypothetical interest is roughly 5% of the amount that we are into the red.
i just don't get how people can look at these numbers and say we should start another trillion dollar social program.
#5 · Jul 31, 2009 06:24 UTC
chase — Jul 27, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1248309521/25#37 date=1248644731]
And if you really look at the whole picture, maybe healthcare should have been considered first, before we bailed out all the banks, car companies, and got rid of pig odor.
or we could have had a painful correction and moved on after TARP. instead now we have another huge bubble building that will eventually send us back to the stone age when it pops. what if we were to spend this trillion paying down the national debt and reassuring our investors that it won't take a wheelbarrow of greenbacks to buy a loaf of bread. get our feet on solid ground, and than when we have some sense of fiscal responsibility looking at what we can and cannot afford to do for our nation. it is a shitty realization to make, but at the rate we are going (california anybody?) we can't afford to take care of our citizens in that way, whether its deserved, constitutional, a right, etc.
in december resurrect this thread. if i'm wrong i'll eat my words, but healthcare is going to be on the back burner.
it's called a "suckers rally"
#6 · Jul 31, 2009 06:24 UTC
chase — Jun 16, 2009without this turning into some kind of left vs. right thing (probably will still happen) what do you think of our current financial path? here are some facts in visual form
#7 · Jul 31, 2009 06:26 UTC
chase — Jun 16, 2009i understand that; everything i've read indicates that we cannot sustain this deficit spending pattern either though. the day will come when the bond market refuses to buy US debt, and at the rate were going it won't be decades away either.
i would love to see a balanced budget. thats probably a pipe dream though
these were all from just 2 threads.
#8 · Jul 31, 2009 06:31 UTC
Hookbender — Jul 31, 2009Warning you? Who? What did you warn whoever about?
did you read the article and factcheck? essentially the government tried to sell more bonds than the market would bear. thankfully due to the system in place to sell bonds they were all bought (the FED bought a third of them . several large auctions were this week, and a few are yet to come.
to wrap it all up in 1 sentence: at the rate were going the bond market will crash spectacularly by late fall
#9 · Aug 01, 2009 15:16 UTC
Well, my prediction is that God will be here by next fall.
Most reports say the economy is improving slowly, but improving. I've read reports that housing has hit bottom and some say values are increasing again, slowly.
You keep complaining about the huge deficit and all the money Obama's spending and how we can't afford to help sick people because of the debt.
It seems what Obama has done is starting to show signs of working. So what are you gonna bitch about if things continue to improve and the debt starts getting paid back? The only thing I've seen so far that isn't good is that consumer spending is still down. If that starts to turn around and unemployment improves, well, will you give Obama a break then?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090801/ap_on_bi_ge/us_housing_mid_year_outlook
Most reports say the economy is improving slowly, but improving. I've read reports that housing has hit bottom and some say values are increasing again, slowly.
You keep complaining about the huge deficit and all the money Obama's spending and how we can't afford to help sick people because of the debt.
It seems what Obama has done is starting to show signs of working. So what are you gonna bitch about if things continue to improve and the debt starts getting paid back? The only thing I've seen so far that isn't good is that consumer spending is still down. If that starts to turn around and unemployment improves, well, will you give Obama a break then?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090801/ap_on_bi_ge/us_housing_mid_year_outlook
#10 · Aug 01, 2009 18:37 UTC
Hookbender — Aug 01, 2009Well, my prediction is that God will be here by next fall.
Most reports say the economy is improving slowly, but improving. I've read reports that housing has hit bottom and some say values are increasing again, slowly.
You keep complaining about the huge deficit and all the money Obama's spending and how we can't afford to help sick people because of the debt.
It seems what Obama has done is starting to show signs of working. So what are you gonna bitch about if things continue to improve and the debt starts getting paid back? The only thing I've seen so far that isn't good is that consumer spending is still down. If that starts to turn around and unemployment improves, well, will you give Obama a break then?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090801/ap_on_bi_ge/us_housing_mid_year_outlook
if i'm wrong i'll be ecstatic. trust me!
#11 · Aug 01, 2009 21:26 UTC
You have the same problem with Obama and his plans as I did at election time. I was overly skeptical about his every move.
First, he's a human being. He isn't mistake free and no one will ever be. The only thing we can do is take the mans word and trust that he will do what he says. So far, he has come probably closer than any other President at doing exactly what he said he would do, or attempt to do. He deserves credit for that whether you agree with his actions or not.
Next, realize the man will make mistakes. Just as I or you will.
Then, think about the person you wanted to be President. Do you think he would have been mistake free? Do you think he would have come as close to doing what he said he would do as Obama?
Obama isn't perfect. And, he has the hardest job in possibly the world as President of the U.S. Regardless of what anyone said, he inherited a fucking disaster. A disaster that no one at the time had a sure answer to and he's doing his best to fix it.
I like some things conservatives stand for as well as liberals. The one thing I learned while debating here and reading is the most important thing, to me anyway, is to vote for who I think is the best man for the job. Forget liberal and conservative because I don't think you can make a fair and just decision from that point of view. Loyalties to a certain party get in the way. I also learned to be very careful of factual information and be looking for someone to steer me in the wrong direction with political bullshit instead of actual facts.
And be optimistic man. Think positively about our President. He's in one damn tough spot right now and for the remainder of his term.
Damn is this Hook talking???? ;D
First, he's a human being. He isn't mistake free and no one will ever be. The only thing we can do is take the mans word and trust that he will do what he says. So far, he has come probably closer than any other President at doing exactly what he said he would do, or attempt to do. He deserves credit for that whether you agree with his actions or not.
Next, realize the man will make mistakes. Just as I or you will.
Then, think about the person you wanted to be President. Do you think he would have been mistake free? Do you think he would have come as close to doing what he said he would do as Obama?
Obama isn't perfect. And, he has the hardest job in possibly the world as President of the U.S. Regardless of what anyone said, he inherited a fucking disaster. A disaster that no one at the time had a sure answer to and he's doing his best to fix it.
I like some things conservatives stand for as well as liberals. The one thing I learned while debating here and reading is the most important thing, to me anyway, is to vote for who I think is the best man for the job. Forget liberal and conservative because I don't think you can make a fair and just decision from that point of view. Loyalties to a certain party get in the way. I also learned to be very careful of factual information and be looking for someone to steer me in the wrong direction with political bullshit instead of actual facts.
And be optimistic man. Think positively about our President. He's in one damn tough spot right now and for the remainder of his term.
Damn is this Hook talking???? ;D