The Watering Hole

Kinda quiet around here with Obama heading into day one and day two comming tomorrow. Great speech, as usual. Now, will his actions back up those pretty speeches? Thats the question that's about to be answered.....by him, himself.

If he backs up his words with action, the fact that most people consider him black, which he isn't entirely, will be shitcanned and he'll be remembered as the best President ever, possibly.....imo.

Thoughts?????

I think he's already done a ton of smart things even before getting into office, and if he can find a way to get us all together on the road to making America a better place for everyone (and not just bankers, drug and insurance companies, and oil men), we just might be able to steer our way out of this skid.

I hope that the ignorant assholes who think Sarah Palin's a worthy candidate and think Obama's a secret Muslim who wasn't even born in Hawaii can contain their unsupported-by-reality hatred and work with the people who are not devoid of reason.

I almost cried watching that speech for four reasons:
1. It was an awesome speech - sober and inspiring all rolled into one. He spoke to us like we were adults, not children. It's nice to see that in a politician for once.
2. He actually acknowledged non-believers. Yay!
3. I was proud that America actually elected a non-white person to the highest office in the land.
4. I know there are many people out there who won't get it because they think Obama's the antichrist.

Hope is on the march! (ha ha ha) :D
Tripper

I think Kev put up stats that stated Christianity has decreased over some number of years. (at the old spot)

I think most fundy type Christians probably voted for McCain. If so, it could be seen as a decline in the fundy type mindset that America has been in for so long. Could be seen as the start of a real big decline in, christianity, I guess. At least the fundy types.

I don't think Obama has given a lot of hope to black people.......I think he's given hope to PEOPLE, in general. Intelligence and education has no limit....that kind of thing.  

Even the rich people are suffering right now. Everyone is to a degree. This could be a real start to healing for America and Americans of all colors, which doesn't mean crap. Maybe we are realizing that a little, finally.

The crazy fundies are a blight on humanity.

whatever the religion - they are the same - insane liars and hypocrites who will resort to supporting terrorism if they don't get their way.

fingers — Jan 21, 2009The crazy fundies are a blight on humanity.

whatever the religion - they are the same - insane liars and hypocrites who will resort to supporting terrorism if they don't get their way.

It's funny you should mention how far-reaching the fundy mindset can be, because so many believers like to blame atheism for the evils of Communist countries. They try to say that people were killed "in the name of atheism" but that's BULLSHIT. It has far, far more to do with fostering a fundamentalist belief in the ideology, system, the country, or the leader, and nothing to do with and nothing in common with atheism in general, and especially the atheism of the intelligentsia (Dawkins et al) who challenge religion at its core.

Fundys of all stripes should be kept as far away from power as possible to ensure justice and freedom for all.

The people who wrote the founding documents of this country understood that deeply...it's too bad we don't have more people like that in power anymore...even with Obama as president.
Tripper

True - a fundy mindset can be found in secular belief systems.
In the extremes of politics right or left.

But ultimately they can be and are defeated by rationality - they can be shown to be wrong, not in absolute terms
but in the relative terms of the failure of a political system in comparison with competing ones.

There are fundamentalist belief involved today in nationalism and economics, the belief in any system as representing truth.
Mostly it is a form of implicit fundamentalism, beliefs that are simply based on unchallenged prejudice and assumption.

This is inherent in human behaviour as we are biologically conditioned to file away a bunch of default theories of the world as we develop mentally
These given theories are default backdrop (Common Sense) - a huge simplification mechanism - so we can concentrate on a (much) smaller set of imperatives that need full attention for survival.
The more a new idea challenges  that innate belief system the more  difficult it is to assimilate.

This is true of everyone including nobel prize winning scientists and politicians like Obama.

Mostly it is so implicit you are not even aware of it.

But it is not fundamentalism, it is a necessary prerequisite that we all have, but not sufficient alone.
Fundamentalism requires a social element, it needs to be organised.

Hitler's beliefs, on his own is just a loon, socially organised it becomes fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is about people grasping on to a "common sense" simplification as absolute truth in an organised way that permits, actually demands  the  rejection of challenge.

That can happen to any organised belief system - fascism or communism, capitalism even democracy.

The degree of fundamentalism involved is a function of how strong the knee jerk automatic  rejection of a challenge is.
The stronger that rejection instinct the more fundamentalist the organised belief system is.

With secular systems of belief the rejection instinct is more brittle and failure of it to deliver is usually enough for the social organisation of belief  to wither away over time and it remains a theory.
With religious systems, the rejection instinct is take to another level - failure to deliver and rejection of challenges are part of the system of belief itself - it is to be expected.

Religion can be summed up as a belief the includes the expectation that no evidence of truth will ever occur and that challenge is to be not only expected but is the work of the evil one in the belief system.

It is a belief system deliberately set up as self referential - it is constructed as an infinite loop that tires the thinker out so they settle on following the belief and simply stop challenging it.

Nobody rationally comes to the conclusion that a religious belief is false as it is by definition impossible to do so.
There is no IF this the Exit Loop moment you get with the collapse of political beliefs.

It is more like an exception - at some point an ex believer simply rejected that loop of the belief system - it is more a self awareness moment where people escape the self imposed mind trap.

For example

Take democracy, there is a current secular belief that it is somehow a silver bullet of absolute truth. But few of the mechanisms of government are actually democratic as it simply doesn't work in practice to allow lay people to vote on expert decisions.

The System of Law is not of democratic origin, it pre-exists it by millennia, laws existed under Pharoahs, Caesars, Kings.
It evolved through the centuries and democracy developed to be more inclusive of those subject to laws to have a say in them.

Democracy is not responsible for notions of freedom, notions of freedom pre-date it  by millennia.
Ideas of freedom have a philosophical foundation that have nothing to do with democracy.

This is why you have people who espouse freedom through democracy  on one hand,
and can't understand that it doesn't give them the right to vote as a majority to take freedoms away from minorities.

An untrammelled  democracy could vote Obama back into slavery.

BTW I am not knocking democracy - it is the best system we have, but it is just a system.
Democracy does not make decisions - it simply keeps the ruling class in check by giving the masses a say in who they are once every 4 years.

The rule of law itself and more importantly it's fairness in the sense it is universally and impartially applied it more important right as a citizen.
Freedom of expression and press is more important in  day to day democratic pressure on ruling classes.

But for some reason democracy has taken on this fundamentalism.

Take Iraq - bringing democracy was the aim when the Iraqi citizen on the ground wanted legitimacy and Rule of Law and security, freedom of expression and the press would come second - democracy would be 3rd on the list of a functioning state.

Ist you want to know that rules apply and 2nd you want to know you have a collective voice through the journo class that pressurises the incumbent government to respect your interests.

So democracy is not all it is cracked up to be as an idea, without the first two it is simply the right to elect a dictator
At worst it becomes the dictatorship of an ignorant majority.

SO - Capitalism - well ideas of capitalism have take a huge hit in the last year - nuff said.

You still get fundamentalists talking about "let the market run free"  - mostly ignorant people who don't get the fact the market has actually failed, not in some abstract terms of the system being worse than some other system, no it has literally failed - you can no longer  get a real  price in many debt security  markets - some markets have been closed for a year or more - in one the last price is over a year old!

So capitalism is not a panacea of an idea either.

It is the best we have maybe - but it is imperfect by nature not by a failure of  the execution of the market in the sense that if only it was left to run even more free it would be perfect.

The market is made of people and capitalism malfunctions in rationality when herd behaviour takes over.

This is known by security forces - for all the talk of "Wisdom of Crowds" that is only true when things are stable, once a panic sets in the "Wisdom of Crowds" is replaced with mob panic that has no wisdom.

But Capitalism is the best system we have.

Obama has a really complex situation to deal with - but while ideals of democracy and capitalism are great to espouse - they are not really the methods involved in solving the problems he is confronted with.

For example

Economically there is a large doses of socialism involved in bailing out the systrem - not because of some ideology - but because capitalism has had a temporary failure.
Politically - Hamas has been elected democratically - Israel in an election year decides it needs a good hammering.

regardless of the rights and wrongs of Palestine and Israel.
It demonstrates that democracy alone doesn't automatically  work to solve problems.

Hamas got elected - but Gaza is devoid of the prerequisites for a democracy to work so they get a bunch of assholes who fire missiles.
Israel is a democracy - but one where votes are won by hammering the Palestinians.

A rule of law needs to be put in place in relations  between Israel and Palestine,

Forget high faluting democracy - get a rule of law in place - a sense of legitimacy.

This applies to Iran as well.

That will be his theme.

Coming back to Religious fundamentalism - it can't be defeated - but ultimately it feeds of secular fundamentalism.

Take that away and they are just a bunch of loonies.

That is my ramble for the night - it is far longer than I intended when I started and has veered around as a stream of thought, hopefully it all connects - I am going to press post now - without reading through.

As an experiment - it is like a mental jam in words :)

fivethirtyeight.com is postulating that Obama may have the highest popularity ratings ever for a new incoming president.  Kennedy came in at 72% but Obama will likely top that, he was at 70% last week.  (They don't count presidents who came in as a result of VP succession, who historically have much higher popularity ratings.)  That means that even some of the people who voted against him or did not vote approve... that gives him a pretty good platform to work from.

Temporary and likely fair weather friends though.

Useful,  but he will be looking at how it will be in two years, once he starts making decisions.

I am not a pessimist - more a realist.
Clearly people are going to be pained by what is about to happen economically.

He can't solve the problems he can only lead a way through it until they solve themselves over time.

But confidence is a good thing.

Very interesting post Fingers!!!!

But with religion, can people actually reject it after they have fallen victim to it? Reject it literally, completely?

I'm not so sure that's entirely possible. I know I have to fight off the shit constantly. I have to mentally keep myself in check. I have to work on it kinda like someone trying to quit drinking or any other addiction. Pick's had the same or similar battle. It's simply almost addiction like. Very hard to completely reject or rid yourself entirely.

When I first came here as a Christian, I was challenged at every corner and showed exactly why I was wrong. I was given information to read, books were suggested, (thanks Trip) and I had thought out answers given to me by Trip and others here. Most people never get challenged that intensely or have the advantage of a world of information with logical explanations as I did. So they pretty much stay the same. Then you have people like me who changed but are constantly fighting the old brainwashing and fear tactics used starting at a very young age.

I'm just not sure one can entirely reject religion completely and give it not one more thought. Maybe they can and this opinion may be poor as it's based on mainly my own circumstances alone, I know that.  :)

I don't think you can reject it completely - it has been planted in your head as a child.
You will probably have no problem rejecting other religions as they haven't been planted as a child  - they will just seem absurd.

After a time you will see your former religion in the similar light, as one of the bunch of competing teams they are. :)

But under stress - say  if you had to jump from a burning building to certain death, chances are you will revert to beliefs from the cradle.

It is OK, it is human.
Feeling religious is as human as the knowledge that you don't really have any faith in religion deep down is Human.

Religion is a social construct that glues the tribe, even in death the tribe is with you.

BTW - I am hoping Obama is as great as he appears to be capable of.

But I give him huge amounts of latitude on the economic problems which can't be solved by hope alone.

If I was Obama - I would get Nelson Mandela in for advice on what it is like to be placed on a pedestal.

He will need to manage expectations as he is now the single man who really is in charge worldwide.
And Worldwide he has huge clout at the moment.

Almost amazing levels - more than Bush had on 9/12 - which showed how quickly a fool can squander a treasure they don't know they have.

Obama is exceptional - no doubt about that.

The really amazing thing about the US - Kennedy was the first Irish catholic president, 46 years of  tears later Obama is the first with African ancestry.
But not only that he has Muslim ancestry.

In 100 years - there will likely have been a black woman as president - in another age an Oprah will do it.

But the religion thing is  a far bigger stumbling block than race.

Why do you say religion is a bigger problem? I agree with you. Just interested in your thoughts.  :) You've made some interesting, and very good post lately! :)

fingers — Jan 22, 2009I don't think you can reject it completely - it has been planted in your head as a child.
You will probably have no problem rejecting other religions as they haven't been planted as a child  - they will just seem absurd.

I agree, plus I know we used to be told (i.e., brain-washed) that other religions were basically wrong (or VERY misguided as in the case of cults - the Jim Jones mass suicide/homicide was discussed quite a bit during my last years with the church).

Going back to politics, so Obama's been in office for a day now and already he's spent HOW MUCH of our tax money?  I guess when the Hollywood crowd is behind you, you're expected to have lavish and stupidly expensive parties when you take office...  I just think that, considering the current economic state, that whoever won would be a bit more responsible with the money from the start (but then I AM a dreamer).  Even the sheriff two doors down from me was sent to D.C. to help with security.  Maybe I should find a Government job so I too can get paid a lot for not doing much...  :-?

Yeah, he's in.  I'm just glad because I keep hearing all these people in TV interviews, saying that now we can finally all come together.  They say that we should all unite now.  I was confused at first.  I didn't know that heretofore there was a reason we should or could not all unite, and that "whatever that reason was" that it had now been "fixed."  I'm just sure glad that whatever it was, it's been taken care of and now we can all unite as one nation.  This makes me feel all warm inside.  I wish we had discovered this magic cure for our divided state many years ago.  

Can some one fill me in, on why we finally have found the cure for our divisiveness?  On why people who never had an enemy in their life can now feel like we are all united now???  Does anyone else have a good belly laugh at how STUPID some of these people are, who are being interviewed and saying this stuff ON NATIONAL TV?   ::)

J-o-e-y's relatives must work in the news broadcasting field...  ;) ::)

DTR

Hopefully, without going in to detail and a long post, Obama will show you what he means when and if it happens.

If you look at Obama in the same light as you do religion, you'll get it.

Obama's message is based on hope, unity, honesty, and desire. Hope is mostly a postive mindset. Think positive, act positive, and do positive things. Positive energy. Positive change. It would have been insane to elect McCain and expect change or anything different than the results from the Bush years.

The fact that he was elected is a huge sign of hope for this country. It may not fix problems with race because he is President, but it is a step forward, progress. A positive sign that with hope, dersire, positive thinking, and change when something doesn't work, as opposed to doing the same things that fail over and over, we can continually improve. Hope is a desire to improve, basically.

Look at this religiously, but leave out the antichrist part. ;D

But he IS the Anti-Christ, isn't he?  I feel so misled...  :-? ;)

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 22, 2009Can some one fill me in, on why we finally have found the cure for our divisiveness?  On why people who never had an enemy in their life can now feel like we are all united now???  

I think the fact that we have a thoughtful, reasonable, intelligent person leading the country is why I feel like the country is now united.  Someone we can get behind, who seems to be making choices that make sense, who is fostering a sense of intellectual curiosity and making choices that are reasonable and well-articulated.  

Although we have been united in our disapproval of Bush, who has hovered at or below the 30% approval now since 3005, that's not really a very "good" feeling of being united.  

As for never having an enemy in our lives, it's not all that hard to argue that Bush was our enemy for much of his presidency.  And sadly, he was doing it in the way he saw best fit to benefit the country.  That his best efforts led to outright disaster for our country on multiple levels speaks to the complete sham of a president he was.  What Al Qaeda could only have dreamed of doing to this country, Bush did, while trying to accomplish the opposite.

Is it all Bush's fault?  No.  But enough of it is directly attributable to his overly ideological, ignorant, uninformed, myopic views that he takes, rightly, a lot of the blame.

Even if you think I am way off base, you have to admit that Bush's complete lack of favorability has been a serious drag on the overall mood and tone of the country for so long now, it's been like prolonged oral surgery.

CraigBert — Jan 22, 2009Going back to politics, so Obama's been in office for a day now and already he's spent HOW MUCH of our tax money?  I guess when the Hollywood crowd is behind you, you're expected to have lavish and stupidly expensive parties when you take office...  I just think that, considering the current economic state, that whoever won would be a bit more responsible with the money from the start (but then I AM a dreamer).  Even the sheriff two doors down from me was sent to D.C. to help with security.  Maybe I should find a Government job so I too can get paid a lot for not doing much...  :-?

You need to read a little closer, my friend.  Obama raised the money for his inaugural festivities and parties on his own, about $45 million.  The security funds for the inaugural event--with approximately 2 million people hitting Washington--were expected to be about $120 million.  Now, do you have any clue how much GW Bush's inauguration in 2005 cost?  Bush raised approximately $42 million, and then the federal government and DC paid... drum roll... $115 million.  And I don't remember Bush having any 2 million people come into town.  Though I do seem to recall... tanks, fighter jets, etc.  A big military show.

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200901170003

Hookbender — Jan 22, 2009Why do you say religion is a bigger problem? I agree with you. Just interested in your thoughts.  :) You've made some interesting, and very good post lately! :)

Religion is a bigger obstacle to becoming President than race.

Obama had more problem with the religious attacks than racial ones in the campaign, racial attacks are now off limits.

The smears of him with being a secret muslim etc.

Religion is used to smear and divide - racial/ethnic attacks are coated in religion.

The historic  profile of a President is a WASP, this group that dates back to British rule, they were/are  the descendants  of the British elite that ran the colonial state.
you can drop the Anglo Saxon bit now to a degree - but it is still White Protestant Christian.

Only two Presidents have broken that profile - JFK and Obama.

JFK only marginally as he was still a Christian - all be it a papist.
Obama had to demonstrate he was a Christian to get elected.

Being anything other than a  Christian is a complete show stopper.

Basically in the categories of Sex/Race/Religion I see Religion as the biggest block

I can see a black woman becoming president before you see an atheist white Anglo Saxon male.

Let alone a Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist  one.

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 22, 2009 I wish we had discovered this magic cure for our divided state many years ago.  

Can some one fill me in, on why we finally have found the cure for our divisiveness?  

Basically one half of the country narrowly voted an incompetent into power twice -and the other half of the country despaired of it as they saw it as a slow motion train wreck.

Now that the train wreck has happened (though not finished - this is one big train wreck) - the majority of the country is united behind the fact that the previous 8 years look almost wilfully badly governed.

I think incompetence is the Bush administrations  best and only  defence.

They bought votes off religious thinking on things like euthanasia, abortion and stem cell research - culture wars that are very marginal issues at best and  do not weigh up against economic collapse and military quagmire.

Fiddling while Rome burned would sum them up

Throwing the religious right a fish to win an election while they got on with the business of fucking things up.