The Watering Hole

Well, uhhh, anyone really happy with the success of Obama? Even within his own party? I'm not sure Democrats agree with him on much. :o

Hookbender — Nov 05, 2009Well, uhhh, anyone really happy with the success of Obama? Even within his own party? I'm not sure Democrats agree with him on much. :o

It's a marathon, not a sprint. I'll give him time to hang himself (if some cracker piece of shit doesn't do it first).

If you think for a second we'd be having a better time of it with the moronic do-nothing ideas of McCain and his worthless fame whore sidekick, well, I think you need to take your brain to the shop and get it checked.

If the Republicans cared more about the people of this country than politics, then maybe we'd be solving problems instead of just kicking them down the lane.

Just look what they tried to do in upstate New York! Shitting on one of their own because she wasn't "conservative enough" and picking a dimwit carpetbagger who didn't even live in the district or give half a shit about things that mattered to the people of NY's 23rd district.

And what happened? Upstate New York grew a pair and for the first time in 150 years elected a Democrat because he was the only person left in the race who sought to represent THEM and not some national scam like Glenn Beck's stupid 9/12 teabagging party.

The idiots are killing themselves and destroying their party.

Wait...that's a good thing.
Tripper

I'm actually very impressed with how ambitious Obama has been.

I'm not impressed with our Congress and the way a minority can hold it hostage.  It's definitely easy to call Obama a failure when you are orchestrating that failure, by fillibustering or threatening to fillibuster everything he does.  I can definitely see a situation in this country where no legislation of any significance ever gets passed again, because our joke of a senate is unable to act because they are so fucking partisan.

charger — Nov 05, 2009 I'm not impressed with our Congress and the way a minority can hold it hostage.  It's definitely easy to call Bush a failure when you are orchestrating that failure, by fillibustering or threatening to fillibuster everything he does.  I can definitely see a situation in this country where no legislation of any significance ever gets passed again, because our joke of a senate is unable to act because they are so fucking partisan.

To me, this is just how it was before Obama as well as now.

BOTH parties need to be slapped around until they realize that they are NOT in office for themselves.  Right now it's only a power trip for any of them and nothing constructive is getting done.  Of course the fact that most of the population has been led to believe that they should depend on Government for their thinking is the biggest part of the problem.

I've seen pretty much nothing positive from Obama's reign so far which is about what I saw from Bush as well...

Tripper — Nov 05, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1257380336/0#0 date=1257380336]Well, uhhh, anyone really happy with the success of Obama? Even within his own party? I'm not sure Democrats agree with him on much. :o

It's a marathon, not a sprint. I'll give him time to hang himself (if some cracker piece of shit doesn't do it first).

If you think for a second we'd be having a better time of it with the moronic do-nothing ideas of McCain and his worthless fame whore sidekick, well, I think you need to take your brain to the shop and get it checked.

If the Republicans cared more about the people of this country than politics, then maybe we'd be solving problems instead of just kicking them down the lane.

Just look what they tried to do in upstate New York! Shitting on one of their own because she wasn't "conservative enough" and picking a dimwit carpetbagger who didn't even live in the district or give half a shit about things that mattered to the people of NY's 23rd district.

And what happened? Upstate New York grew a pair and for the first time in 150 years elected a Democrat because he was the only person left in the race who sought to represent THEM and not some national scam like Glenn Beck's stupid 9/12 teabagging party.

The idiots are killing themselves and destroying their party.

Wait...that's a good thing.
Tripper


What does McCain and his sidekick have to do with this? I'm talking about Obama. How do you think Obama has done so far?

CraigBert — Nov 05, 2009[quote author=charger link=1257380336/0#2 date=1257399987] I'm not impressed with our Congress and the way a minority can hold it hostage.  It's definitely easy to call Bush a failure when you are orchestrating that failure, by fillibustering or threatening to fillibuster everything he does.  I can definitely see a situation in this country where no legislation of any significance ever gets passed again, because our joke of a senate is unable to act because they are so fucking partisan.

To me, this is just how it was before Obama as well as now.

BOTH parties need to be slapped around until they realize that they are NOT in office for themselves.  Right now it's only a power trip for any of them and nothing constructive is getting done.  Of course the fact that most of the population has been led to believe that they should depend on Government for their thinking is the biggest part of the problem.

I've seen pretty much nothing positive from Obama's reign so far which is about what I saw from Bush as well...

Although I agree that it was like this before, I couldn't say you are further off in saying "nothing positive" from Obama, just like Bush.  Can you remember any legislation Bush tackled or proposed in his first 8 months--at all?  You may not AGREE with Obama's legislative initiatives, but he put a lot of programs in motion in that time frame.  I can't remember Bush doing anything but vacationing until 9/11.

So far all I've seen are a few things being pushed down people's throats before anyone can even read what is being considered.  I also see Obama "campaigning" still (he seems to be on TV every day like a bad salesman).  ANY bill that is over 1,000 pages is flawed IMO.  Any bill that will make such a huge impact on an individual's life (like the healthcare reform) should be short enough and in simple enough language that Joe Public can understand it.  And any bill that is pressured to be approved before anyone knows what it will cost or even what the bill says is flat-out wrong.  There's some shady shit going down in DC right now.  When Bush was in office the Democrats would filibuster everything and demand to argue about it for months, now that Obama is in office Pelosi has commanded that the Republicans aren't allowed to filibuster, argue, offer suggestions or ask for revisions?  That's pure bullshit.

What I also see is billions and billions of dollars given to many that really shouldn't get any (yes, I realize that something had to be done, I just think the fuck-ups that got us into our financial mess just got rewarded while the rest of us are just getting doubly screwed).

The scorecard as I see it is:

Bush:  Billions wasted, war in the Middle-East, industries nationalized, public screwed and headed toward facism
Obama: Billions wasted, stagnation in the Middle-East, industries unfairly rewarded for bad behavior, public screwed and headed toward socialism

Yay...  :(

I understand your concerns Craig, but in Obama's defense, anything done differently than what Bush did for eight years is gonna look a little like socialism. Bush did shit so wrong and fucked things up so bad, I guess only a socialist could even attempt to fix it in the first place. ;D

I see no evidence of Obama heading or liking anything socialist. I think any Dem. President at this time would be accused of that. Unfairly. The media will drive this point home as long as he's in office. I hear it all the time on Fox radio or conservative talk shows. It's the norm.

I also hear alot of bashing on the subject of Afganastan. All this crap about Obama taking to long to decide what to do about sending more troops. Unlike most places we've fought wars, other countries have provided us with much history of pretty much failures there. To make a quick, unthought out decision about going there would be pretty damn stupid on our part. I know most Bush people and republicans aren't use to planned action so they bitch a little bit. Wonder why they don't look at Bush's unplanned disasters for a few answers to that question.

Signs of the economy improving are starting to show up and make the news. So the spending of shit loads of money have helped, at least some to this point. I have to give him credit, so far, for the results we are starting to see.

On the healthcare thing. We have to do something to fix this shit. I don't know what, but I surely would give whatever Obama comes up with a chance. I would be more in favor of modifying the current system than a completely new system, but I'm not the President and don't know hardly shit about fixing our current problems. I do have a problem with all the money the new thing is suppose to cost, as we all should.

I think Obama, in general, is doing his best right now to steady the ship. And in general, I'd say he's doing a little better than average in meeting that goal. It's really very early to even start judging him and the job he's doing.

I sure wish that stupid bitch wasn't around right now. You know the one, right? Starts with a P. ;)

CraigBert — Nov 05, 2009So far all I've seen are a few things being pushed down people's throats before anyone can even read what is being considered.  I also see Obama "campaigning" still (he seems to be on TV every day like a bad salesman).  ANY bill that is over 1,000 pages is flawed IMO.  Any bill that will make such a huge impact on an individual's life (like the healthcare reform) should be short enough and in simple enough language that Joe Public can understand it.  And any bill that is pressured to be approved before anyone knows what it will cost or even what the bill says is flat-out wrong.  There's some shady shit going down in DC right now.  When Bush was in office the Democrats would filibuster everything and demand to argue about it for months, now that Obama is in office Pelosi has commanded that the Republicans aren't allowed to filibuster, argue, offer suggestions or ask for revisions?  That's pure bullshit.

What I also see is billions and billions of dollars given to many that really shouldn't get any (yes, I realize that something had to be done, I just think the fuck-ups that got us into our financial mess just got rewarded while the rest of us are just getting doubly screwed).

The scorecard as I see it is:

Bush:  Billions wasted, war in the Middle-East, industries nationalized, public screwed and headed toward facism
Obama: Billions wasted, stagnation in the Middle-East, industries unfairly rewarded for bad behavior, public screwed and headed toward socialism

Yay...  :(

Hey, I agree with you on healthcare. This is what happens when we allow lobbyists and tea parties and mass hysteria to infect what should be a process focused on OUR needs, not the needs of a bunch of people who need to get elected every 2 years, and need to suck in a few million dollars from friendly industries along the way.

I think the healthcare bill should have been 30 pages, and those 30 pages should have contained three or four items.

One called "the public option."  The government could have written in their ticket to what rates they would negotiate at, allowed people or employers to enroll, and--boom.  A legitimate competitor to the health insurance industry (which, btw, because of some archaic legislation, is the only industry where competitors are actually allowed to collude to fix rates and prices--did you know that?).  Once legitimate competition was "written in" to the market, health insurance rates would stop rising, and in fact, start to fall.  A healthily competitive market.

One other tenet called "insuring the sick."  This would state in no uncertain terms that health insurance could not drop a person who got sick, or refuse coverage to a person with a history of sickness.  It's worthless to us to have an insurance system if the people who really need care have no way to get in.  They then cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in public monies, as they go bankrupt, languish in emergency facilities, etc, with no way to pay for their care.  

And another tenet capping the prices of an out-of-control pharma industry, which basically cannot ever take a modest profit, but must recreate new drugs that do the same things as old ones once their patents expire, so they can continue to charge ridiculous money for the same effect that an old drug provided.

I'm not saying that everyone should get to see the best surgeon in town, or have elective surgeries, or get MRIs when their ankles twinge.  I think there are luxuries that money affords, and people should be allowed to blow their money as they see fit.  But no one should be denied a life-saving or massively life-improving procedure because of lack of insurance, or underinsurance.  That is what this bill should have--and does not--address.  The frightening thing is, Americans are in FAVOR of a public option, by an almost 2 to 1 ratio.  But ask them if they are in favor of healthcare reform, and it's exactly 50/50.  And I don't blame them.  It's hard to see where the reform is in this bill, where the catering to different interests stops and where our interests start.

Hookbender — Nov 06, 2009

I think Obama, in general, is doing his best right now to steady the ship. And in general, I'd say he's doing a little better than average in meeting that goal. It's really very early to even start judging him and the job he's doing.

Me too.  I think he looks like the only one with his head on straight.  It's the fucking rest of the country and the rest of the government that seems like it's off the fucking rails right now.  I knew that the "loyal opposition" would do what they could to derail him.  I just didn't realize it would be this ugly.

                                            Have you ever checked out these


                                            1,000 page bills?  They are triple


                                            spaced legal style with at least


                                            half of the space blank per page.





                                           Even with it being legalese (ew!)


                                           only complete morons could whine


                                           about having to read these things


                                           let alone claiming they are full pages


                                           but then again they do represent


                                           the public.

So a 500 page bill is better? I think not.

Really?  You must like to read legalese.  he h heh


My real answer to your question is "depends on what's in it".  I'm not talking about the "health" bill btw, I'm talking about people crying about having to do their chosen job.  I guess taking perks from special interests while working a couple days a week can be taxing.   See that I made a funny!

Hookbender — Nov 05, 2009[quote author=Tripper link=1257380336/0#1 date=1257393842][quote author=Hookbender link=1257380336/0#0 date=1257380336]Well, uhhh, anyone really happy with the success of Obama? Even within his own party? I'm not sure Democrats agree with him on much. :o

It's a marathon, not a sprint. I'll give him time to hang himself (if some cracker piece of shit doesn't do it first).

If you think for a second we'd be having a better time of it with the moronic do-nothing ideas of McCain and his worthless fame whore sidekick, well, I think you need to take your brain to the shop and get it checked.

If the Republicans cared more about the people of this country than politics, then maybe we'd be solving problems instead of just kicking them down the lane.

Just look what they tried to do in upstate New York! Shitting on one of their own because she wasn't "conservative enough" and picking a dimwit carpetbagger who didn't even live in the district or give half a shit about things that mattered to the people of NY's 23rd district.

And what happened? Upstate New York grew a pair and for the first time in 150 years elected a Democrat because he was the only person left in the race who sought to represent THEM and not some national scam like Glenn Beck's stupid 9/12 teabagging party.

The idiots are killing themselves and destroying their party.

Wait...that's a good thing.
Tripper


What does McCain and his sidekick have to do with this? I'm talking about Obama. How do you think Obama has done so far?

The way you phrased your original post was clearly second-guessing the election of President Obama, therefore, McCain and the turd are fair game.

My opinion is this: President Obama's been a little too kind to his opposition, and compromised for the sake of compromise too often. He's also been too nice to Pelosi and Reid. But unfortunately, he HAS to be...

But, given what we could have had, I think having a guy with a brain, understanding of the law, and a love for being rational and reasonable is going to work out well for America in the end, no matter what disinformation about him the Fox News Fear BrigadeTM and their cronies on the radio spit in his direction.

So I'm reasonably happy with President Obama's work so far. I just understand that things take longer than we would ever like them to in our intentionally slow-moving government, which is frustrating.

I saw a bumper sticker on a car the other day that said, "So how's that hope and change working out for you?" And it made me think about all the conservatives in my life who are dumb enough to tease his supporters and say President Obama's done nothing, but then in the same breath say "he's ruining my country!"

Which one is it, dumb fucks? He's done nothing, or he's changing everything?

Stupidity will be the death of this country...
Tripper

I wasn't second-guessing Obama being elected, just trying to bring out opposing views of him to get an idea of what people thought of the job he was doing. Not for the sake of arguing, just to see what negative views of him were out there. I think you were second guessing me. ;D

Yeah, I've been listening to Fox and other shows lately and they really make me sick, almost as sick as Bush haters shows did. At some point, people have to learn to think outside the box.

Example....Obama ran on different things and said he wanted to do things differently.....CHANGE. That's great, if it were possible, and to a degree it is....in time. IMO, when you become President, you get insight to details of every situation. These details may change the timing of what you want to do or may, I guess, even make your desires impossible. As we all know, the Presidents job is enormous. Considering the large scope of what Obama took over, and the large scope of what he wants to do, a little patience is deserved. And it wouldn't hurt the media to quit being so negative on EVERY aspect of what the President does, no matter who he or she may be. It's still our President they are slamming, mostly unfairly. Yes, their were exceptions in Bush's case.

So I would add to stupidity with, lack of patience, understanding, and really, desire. Desire to attempt to reason with the huge responsibilities of the job itself.

Tripper — Nov 09, 2009

I saw a bumper sticker on a car the other day that said, "So how's that hope and change working out for you?"

I am still amazed that we got out of a recession in a year.  That hope and change is rocking for me right now.

As for 10% unemployement, I think the last time we had that, Reagan was president, and it was something like three years into his term?  That worked out all right for him, he ended up being the poster boy of the entire right wing, so I'm not sure there's a whole lot I can say about how hope and change is going to work out in the long run based on this point... though I am very optimistic.

Well, I'm getting pretty worried about this healthcare package that passed. I don't have the facts and haven't checked it out for myself yet (just shit on fox and liberal talk shows) but what I've heard so far is pretty scary. In short, only 11 million people will have coverage that currently don't, the abortion clause thing, and that they passed a bill in congress that they don't yet know how much it will cost american families. I've heard 1 to 2 trillion overall but how much more will it cost the average american family.?? I'm sure I have some messed up info but I'll read about it in the next few days. If you (Charger, Trip) come accross some factual info I'd love to read about it. Please post the link if you can. Pretty busy at work now. Thanks.

Hooky, the bill, as it currently stands (i.e., as approved by the House) is in the thread I posted.  It's a fully searchable .pdf file so go check it out.

Thanks Craig! Will do. Forgot about that. :)

Shit, damn, fuck. This thing is reminding me of reading the Bible. ;D Gotta take notes as you read and damn near as long. ;D No wonder they can't get shit done in Congress.  ;D Too busy writing a new Bible it seems.

I'll have to do this another time. No wonder the public doesn't know what the hell is going on. Who has time to read, and really comprehend, all this crap? Shit. These long ass complicated bills like this are exactly why people depend on shitty fox news for their information I bet.

I;ll check it out some other time. :(

bah, don't read that thing - it's not going to be the final bill anyway.

anything that could come out of reconciliation will not have most of that house bill content.

if obama signs something, read that.

The healthcare debate is hard to understand.  I'm not sure if we can pass a bill that will fix it, or even help.  The root causes run very deep.  
If you want to hear a good dissection of the problems and causes, This American Life just did a two-parter on it, and I happen to have the audio right here... These are a little over 20 MB a piece, but well worth the download.  If anyone's interested, they also have some really good reporting on the financial crisis, the "giant pool of money."

http://www.chargermusic.com/audio/ThisAmericanLife391-MoreIsLess.mp3
http://www.chargermusic.com/audio/ThisAmericanLife392-SomeoneElsesMoney.mp3

Ironsheep-you need to reed this so you know what the hell the fuckers who voted for it, and against it, are thinking. And, it still doesn't hurt to read it to get a grasp of how complex this issue and bill is.


Charger- I'll cjheck it out, both. Thanks man!

yeah... I didn't say anything about my grasp, or lack thereof.

it appeared that you were not enjoying your experience while reading...

so I suggested that a final bill would be the better candidate. that way, you'd only have to go through it once.

press accounts are quite adequate in the interim.

but hell, it's your time, use it as you please! heh.

ironsheep — Nov 11, 2009yeah... I didn't say anything about my grasp, or lack thereof.

it appeared that you were not enjoying your experience while reading...

so I suggested that a final bill would be the better candidate. that way, you'd only have to go through it once.

press accounts are quite adequate in the interim.

but hell, it's your time, use it as you please! heh.

You suggested I don't read it, or waste my time reading it. I don't consider it a waste of time at all for reasons posted and other reasons. It may serve you well to have read the thing first, then find out who voted for it and or, who didn't, for future reference. Press accounts are never accurate, or adequate. That's a huge problem. Supprised you would admit such rubbish. You gonna wait till the thing is law before you find out what the law entails? A little late to do anything about it then isn't it?  

sheep's right.  Not a whole lot of this is going to make it into the final bill.  

Hookbender — Nov 11, 2009[quote author=ironsheep link=1257380336/0#23 date=1257916612]yeah... I didn't say anything about my grasp, or lack thereof.

it appeared that you were not enjoying your experience while reading...

so I suggested that a final bill would be the better candidate. that way, you'd only have to go through it once.

press accounts are quite adequate in the interim.

but hell, it's your time, use it as you please! heh.

You suggested I don't read it, or waste my time reading it. I don't consider it a waste of time at all for reasons posted and other reasons. It may serve you well to have read the thing first, then find out who voted for it and or, who didn't, for future reference. Press accounts are never accurate, or adequate. That's a huge problem. Supprised you would admit such rubbish. You gonna wait till the thing is law before you find out what the law entails? A little late to do anything about it then isn't it?  


it is quite difficult to know what something entails before it exists.

you assume far too much. I know how my rep voted. I'm aware of quite a lot in the bill, but I haven't read every word in it. I will not say that I "read the bill" when, in fact, I read excerpts. I am not expressing an opinion regarding the intent, substance or quality of the bill.


abandoning all press accounts would be the logical course if you truly believe that they are never accurate or adequate.

if you have time available to read the source material on every potential governmental or corporate action... and the access necessary to interview countless authorities and other individuals around the world, on various topics, first hand and so remain well informed without the press... well, good for you. I don't. I have to rely on many press accounts and opinion pieces to get a sense of what's happening on any particular issue.

so yes, I'm "admitting" that I rely on the vast spectrum of today's press for information.

shocking.

ironsheep — Nov 11, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1257380336/0#24 date=1257919986][quote author=ironsheep link=1257380336/0#23 date=1257916612]yeah... I didn't say anything about my grasp, or lack thereof.

it appeared that you were not enjoying your experience while reading...

so I suggested that a final bill would be the better candidate. that way, you'd only have to go through it once.

press accounts are quite adequate in the interim.

but hell, it's your time, use it as you please! heh.

You suggested I don't read it, or waste my time reading it. I don't consider it a waste of time at all for reasons posted and other reasons. It may serve you well to have read the thing first, then find out who voted for it and or, who didn't, for future reference. Press accounts are never accurate, or adequate. That's a huge problem. Supprised you would admit such rubbish. You gonna wait till the thing is law before you find out what the law entails? A little late to do anything about it then isn't it?  


it is quite difficult to know what something entails before it exists.

you assume far too much. I know how my rep voted. I'm aware of quite a lot in the bill, but I haven't read every word in it. I will not say that I "read the bill" when, in fact, I read excerpts. I am not expressing an opinion regarding the intent, substance or quality of the bill.


abandoning all press accounts would be the logical course if you truly believe that they are never accurate or adequate.

if you have time available to read the source material on every potential governmental or corporate action... and the access necessary to interview countless authorities and other individuals around the world, on various topics, first hand and so remain well informed without the press... well, good for you. I don't. I have to rely on many press accounts and opinion pieces to get a sense of what's happening on any particular issue.

so yes, I'm "admitting" that I rely on the vast spectrum of today's press for information.

shocking.


Unfortunatly, it's not shocking.

This isn't every bill. It's a very big deal, bill. It will effect every person in the U.S. in some way.

I'm not assuming anything. It's good you know how your rep voted and are familiar with the bill. At least you read some of the bill, possibly to check out whether the news was accurate or not, maybe? You may be right that the bill will be completely changed at some point, but you may be wrong also. Or maybe they will change only a small portion of it, who knows? I just disagree with your statement or suggestion not to waste time reading this bill. I think that's poor advice to give people.

One way to improve this bill is to read it and call your rep with your concerns in hope that the revised version is actually closer to what the people really want . Therefore reading this bill and knowing what it "entails" can be very beneficial.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue. No big deal, yet. ;D

sounds good - but for the record, I was only advising -you- not to read it (yet) because you were complaining about reading it. ;)

also, don't confuse "reading press accounts" with "taking press accounts at face value".

as you say, I look into topics more thoroughly once they've caught my interest.

but I'm willing to accept a summary of quarterly earnings numbers, for instance, rather than reading the Edgar filings of every company in the S&P 500.

however, when the opinion side of the press talks up a certain investment, I'll check out the data for myself (if I'm interested).

I'm an active consumer of news and intellectually curious, not a moron, I promise.  ;D

The reason I'm not interested in this bill is because ANYTHING can pass the house.  The Senate is held hostage by two or three people who can literally block any legislation--Lieberman, Snowe, etc.  It is entirely possible that no health care legislation is going to pass at all because of the actions of these people.  Or if it does, it will be so weak as to not affect your life at all.  As it is, much of the Senate bill won't become mandatory until 2013.  

I strongly recommend listening to the episodes of This American Life I posted.  They will give you far more insight into what you personally can do, and what we as a country could do, to change our health care patterns.

I don't consider you a moron, yet, Ironsheep. ;D Wilfully ignorant, maybe. ;D

Just kidding, at least you can spell. ;D

I won't post here again until I check your links Charger. Good idea.

I've read the whole bill.

Actually I farmed it out to  people to read it for me (not  sure they did)
I got my lumpen ear to the ground and  listened to the political music
and joined in a political bun fight.
and played promotion games in the media.
Then bartered my vote in some horse trading.


I think that describes the political "process"

:)

I don't think there is anything wrong with politics
It stinks and putrefies any who come close.

but the alternative is worse

The alternative is "everyone working together"

scary :)

politicians only work together like that  under order of a dictator or an external threat that makes partisan politics null and void.

Always be very very sceptical of any move that attempts to make partisan politics null and void.


Bush n Cheney did a great job with their War on Terra

I think they called it War on Terra to disguise the real war...War on another religion that wasn't to their liking.

If you think about it, any war against any religious group or religion, good or bad, would at some point, shine a bad light on the religion they liked. Religion in general.

This would maybe enlighten a study on the effects of religion. Holy shit. ;D

Yeah, had a beer. Makes me think weird doesn't it. ;D

Hookbender — Nov 13, 2009 Yeah, had a beer. Makes me think weird doesn't it. ;D

I wouldn't blame the beer for that!  :D ;D

;D ;D