16 posts
In the past I've always had separate PC's for the music studio, games and work/personal. Unfortunately, my "newest" box is over five years old and I'm going to need a new one for work very soon. Anyway, someone mentioned a technique that I don't remember hearing about before and that's the ability to boot from an external harddrive. Now I already have two external harddrive devices, one holds a single, hot-swappable drive and the other holds four hot-swappable drives (the carriages are interchangeable between the devices as well). The four-banger uses Firewire 800 and I already have four cables for it so I know it will be fast (I just need an extra card for the new PC, most new PC's come with one Firewire 800 port and I've seen three-port Firewire 800 cards that would work perfectly).
So, here's what I'm considering and would love to hear any pros or cons about this approach.
The work PC could definitely use 64-bit and a box with big balls, the music PC could run the same (I have 64-bit versions of the software I already use, or could get them fairly easily) and the gaming PC is happy with 32-bit but needs a kick-ass video card. Needless to say, manipulating very large images in PhotoShop, working with 3D CAD projects and scrolling lots of music tracks could all benefit from a top-of-the-line video card and all would love a fast, multi-core PC with tons of RAM so why not just get ONE hot-shit PC for all three applications and simply boot from three different devices?
I've tried combining usage before and it usually ends up being a nightmare, but that was when you only could boot from one drive (usually the internal C drive). Then one application would want certain settings and devices while another application needed completely different things.
In the new approach, each application (music studio, work and gaming) would have its own OS drive (other data drives could be shared if needed). I'd probably make the internal C drive the normal boot disk for work, then simply reboot and select a different boot drive for the music studio or gaming as needed.
So what do you guys think? Could this work? If so, then I can spend a lot more on the one PC instead of compromising on multiple PS's. FWIW, I'll keep one of my older PC's as my personal data slut 'cause we all need a PC that we don't care about when browsing the net etc., right? ;)
It works in theory, but I can imagine some gotchas with hardware/software configurations clashing
i.e. where hardware has stored flash memory configs
but if hardware is static, then you can keep that all in line or reconfigure after boot if the difference is required between "PC".
If there are bugs in hardware drivers then you may find that it blue screens on switching between boot drives if hard/soft configs don't match
instinct really - that switching won't be tested as a scenario with hardware drivers, they generally assume a single environment.
So, basically, if I keep the drivers for the video, network card, etc. current in all instances I should be good to go?
I'm not seeing how there would be a conflict actually, you're not hot-swapping between OS drives, you do have to reboot...
I just no longer can afford to maintain three separate PC's so I'm thinking out of (but still about) the box. :)
Try it an see -
The scenario I am thinking is this where the hardware has stored config itself.
e.g.
Hardware 1 has a default of config A on install.
PC 1 boots and puts it into config B which it stores and configures the OS to work with.
PC2 boots and config clashes - if it is not buggy then you just configure - if it is buggy then you get crashes.
it is impossible to say what will cause it - but blue screens is the result when it happens.
for example - say you set a sound card sample rate in one config, maybe it remembers that config in hardware,
then you re-boot and the new "PC" doesn't know the config, but sends it at the last one if knew.
and the driver has a buffer overrun and crashes.
Interesting, but I was thinking that I would have the "normal" soundcard disabled in the music OS since it would use my Layla anyway (and THAT would be turned off when using the PC for work or games)...
Hmm...
It works flawlessly. My buddy's got a Win XP 32-bit/Win 7 Ultimate 64-bit system, and it asks on boot which to use. The key is to install the smartest OS last, so install XP first, then Win7 last. And I don't recommend it, it's simply an annoyance now, we haven't used Win XP in the studio in months, we did the install that way thinking we'd need to go back.
By the way, I think the whole thing is irrelevant. I'd run it all on one install.
There is simply no reason, with the current insane speeds of hardware, that you would need a separate system for your DAW. A kid with an off the rack Dell will get 64 tracks. Just put your music sessions on their own drive. Start all your apps and games from C:. Once the app is loaded into memory, it's not really reading from the disc, and even if is, your talking 3 Gbps for SATA, your computer could be building a car in the background and still load 100 MB of data in a few seconds.
I just bought a new video card, by the way, a GeForce GTX(s?)460. It is unreal the amount of power it has.
One thing that is key, though, is a good case. My last few builds I've made sure to read the reviews and get something that's easy to get in and out of, has decent cable management, and has the external ports I need. There's one that I'm looking at for my next build that has a built-in SATA drive dock on top. You just grab a bare SATA drive in stick it into the slot... incredibly handy. I don't look carting around Firewire drives and worrying about power and cable and stuff, but a bare drive in a bag? I can do that.
So with Windows 7 (which would be the only OS I'd use, just 64-bit on two of the drives and 32-bit on one) you don't get crap like registry bloat? I'm talking about the kind that makes you reformat the drive and reinstall the OS every once in a while. I was thinking that, by spreading out the usage among three different drives (since each uses completely different types of software), that I could keep each install cleaner...
In any event, getting one PC for all uses is sounding more and more feasible!
On a side note, I saw on Amazon a nice 1TB drive for only $54 - amazing! I still remember paying $540 for a 20 megabyte drive... Now, for 1/10th the cost you get 50,000 times more storage! Gotta love that part about living right now. Heck, the 2TB drives are only $119, but even I can't think of what I'd use one for. I'd rather get two of the 1TB drives and RAID them.
As long as I've been using Win7 I haven't noticed it slowing down yet. The ridiculousness of XP boot times is definitely gone. As a side note, Win7 is a little bit slower than XP (this is common to Windows, every successive version is slightly slower because of the increase in graphics and cycles being consumed at idle). However, 64-bit with a 64-bit app should be faster than the same app in Win XP 32-bit, especially if you've got 8 gigs of RAM or something.
Check this system out--this is a killer deal and a nice mid-high end powerhouse... All you need is a video card and OS.
http://tinyurl.com/5tu8xj5
I'm putting together a system right now. Did you ever get your system figured out? I've got case, mb, ram, cpu, power supply, all figured out. I may not buy a drive, I have 5 or 6 laying around or in external cases. Here's what I'm going with:
- Intel Core i5 2500K LGA 1155 Boxed Processor - $180
- MSI P67S-C43 LGA 1155 P67 ATX Intel Motherboard - $115
- Thermaltake Frio CPU cooler - $40
- Cooler Master CM690II Advanced case - $80 (could get a cheaper case but I love this one--SATA dock on top, lots of cooling, CM cases are incredibly well though out inside for the builder)
- Galaxy GTX460 768MB video card (got this on ridiculous sale for $90)
- OCZ Technology ModXStream Pro 600W Modular ATX Power Supply - $60
- CORSAIR XMS3 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) - x2 (8GB total) - $66 (after rebates and discounts)
Right around $690 so far for a system that is pretty much insane. Most of my prices come from MicroCenter, by the way, if there is one near you, they have very good prices, often better than TigerDirect and/or NewEgg, though you do pay tax on the purchase.
So far so good. I'm still looking for a deal on Windows 7 Pro-64, I could get it OEM for $140 but I like to change my hardware from time to time and I've heard OEM software can be picky about that. However, I managed to use one OEM version of XP through three complete motherboard/drive/RAM upgrades on my current machine, so maybe that's the way to go.
Is that CPU cooler liquid? I'm guessing that would be great for a music box. My current one is a dual CPU server box that has 9(!) fans - way too many to keep things quiet.
Right now I'm only putting together ideas so I can make a budget. We're STILL waiting on one order (being held up by a utility - even the customer is getting ticked at the delay) and we just submitted documents to get another project going. Once either of those orders happens I might be able to justify getting the better PC. Otherwise that will have to wait a while longer.
Even though I have quite a few hard drives, I'll definitely have to get some larger ones. Mine are all 250 gig and I've stopped adding music to iTunes because I only have a couple gig left on the music drive (iTunes doesn't handle multiple drives well - tried that before!). I'm thinking of raiding two 1 TB drives for space and safety (plus this would only cost $108 - gotta love that!).
As for the case, I have two Cooler Master's now and they've worked very well. I like the idea of the SATA dock on top too.
I noticed you're getting 8 gb of RAM? I thought you were going to stay with a 32-bit OS, no? Everything I've read says you can't access the second 4 gb until you go to 64-bit...
CraigBert — Jan 26, 2011Is that CPU cooler liquid? I'm guessing that would be great for a music box. My current one is a dual CPU server box that has 9(!) fans - way too many to keep things quiet.
Right now I'm only putting together ideas so I can make a budget. We're STILL waiting on one order (being held up by a utility - even the customer is getting ticked at the delay) and we just submitted documents to get another project going. Once either of those orders happens I might be able to justify getting the better PC. Otherwise that will have to wait a while longer.
Even though I have quite a few hard drives, I'll definitely have to get some larger ones. Mine are all 250 gig and I've stopped adding music to iTunes because I only have a couple gig left on the music drive (iTunes doesn't handle multiple drives well - tried that before!). I'm thinking of raiding two 1 TB drives for space and safety (plus this would only cost $108 - gotta love that!).
As for the case, I have two Cooler Master's now and they've worked very well. I like the idea of the SATA dock on top too.
I noticed you're getting 8 gb of RAM? I thought you were going to stay with a 32-bit OS, no? Everything I've read says you can't access the second 4 gb until you go to 64-bit...
I'm still looking for a deal on Windows 7 Pro-64, I could get it OEM for $140
Yep, you're stuck at 3.5 GB with a 32- OS. I was waiting for Pro Tools to get to 64-bit and PT9 is there. 64-bit is mainly a hardware limitation anyway, pretty much anything that will run on a 32-bit OS will run on a 64-bit OS, the exception being some hardware drivers. If it won't run on Win7-64 it probably won't run on Win7-32 either. And Win7 Pro includes a virtual Win XP mode to run anything else.
I've put together a number of PCs and Cooler Master cases are just easier to work with. Their tool-less implementations are generally thoughtful and the spacing is generally smart. I love the slide-out hard drive bays, slide them out, pop in a drive, slide them back in, connect two wires. Brilliant. And the 690's got room for 10 fans! The key to quiet is to get larger fans running slower, the new cases all support 120-140mm fans, and sometimes 200 mm. A fan at that size pushes immense cooling at only 500 RPM or so. And there are lots of very quiet fans out there now.
The Frio's not a water cooler and it's not my first choice, but my first choice, the thermalright silver arrow, costs $40 more, is really huge and unwieldy, and is not available anywhere near me...
My geek GAS is building... I actually woke up in the middle of the night thinking about this.
We're FINALLY living in a time where real computer power is affordable (and I'm currently broke ::) ) - figures.
It used to be for 20 years that the computer you wanted would cost you $3,000 - now it's only a fraction of that - cool!
You're lucky, one of the two Microcenters in California is near you. I used to be lucky since their other CA store (Orange County/Tustin) was right up the street from where I was working. Now, YOUR store is actually the closest to me! :o
There's also only one Fry's in Oregon about 40 miles south of here - I wonder what deals they might have. Otherwise, I might just use mail order again. I've had very good luck with jncs.com, but those two systems were over five years ago so I'm not sure if they still have kick-ass prices with great customer service.
Looks like the next thing to upgrade will be the wireless network - things are a lot faster there as well! :)
Craig, what's up old dog!
I have a system that is "kind of" what you're looking for...
I say kind of because I don't use an external drive for the OS, I use internal "removable" drives... Much like I assume your external 4 bay unit is.
Check out this link:
http://www.cru-dataport.com/products/Data-Express-DE110.php
This is the chassis I am using.
It's very rugged, well built, and the additional carriages for it are readilly available.
Now, here is why I went this route... Data throughput from SATA is MUCH faster than Firewire 800, and the only way to truly get away with running your OS reliably and quickly with an external drive is with a eSATA breakout enclosure, or an external SCSI enclosure / Fiber Channel array which can get insanely cost prohibitive REAL quick. Also, hard rvies are disgustingly cheap these days. Hell, you can pick up 1TB 7200 RPM drives for what, like $100? Hah! That's retarded cheap.
So I would reccomend doing something like this... Build yourself a nice computer in a mid size case that has an available 5 1/4" drive bay... Most will have at least two, which you can populate with an optical drive of your choosing and a removable hard drive chassis. Have another LARGE hard drive installed internally. Use the internal drive for data storage and the removable drive to run your OS. You can get away with a much smaller drive to run your OS. Probably as small as 320-500GB, and make your data drive big as hell. The smaller drives will be cheaper, and because they will be in the removable chassis you can buy several. Get one smaller drive for every OS you want to run. I have one drive with Windows 7 Pro 64 Bit, another with the latest long term maintenance release of ubuntu, and a third with the latest release of Ubuntu. I have been very pleased with this setup, I can switch operating systems by simply shutting down and swapping drives.
sleazy easy! The only drawback, and this only holds true if you're running any non windows OS, is that the data drive will need to be formatted with FAT32 as opposed to NTFS for compatibility reasons. Although I believe Ubuntu can read from NTFS partitions, not sure about writing to them though.
Also, with regard to firewire... I just wanted to put it out there that Firewire is a bus... So regardless of how many ports are installed in the computer they all use the same internal bus. You can add an external firewire hub (much like a USB hub) that will allow you to connect all four of your drives up to a single firewire port. I am surprised, in fact, to find that the enclosure does not have a firewire hub built in, or a controller built in that alllows it to be attached to the host computer with a single firewire cable. Adding a second firewire card is actually creating a second firewire bus on the computer which, in essence, slows things down cause now the processor is having to receive data feeds from two host bus adapters as opposed to one.
And lastly... I have to agree with Charger here, that there is really no need to go this route, especially if you only plan on running several instances of the same OS. If all you want to run in Windows 7, then just do yourself a favor and simplify everything by getting a Windows 7 box that kicks ass, and run everything on that one box. Get Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit. There is no reason to run a 32 bit OS these days as all current hardware manufacturers are supporting 64 bit OS now. I would reccomend running the removable drive chassis for the OS drive just for the sake of experimentation though. With drives being so dirt cheap, why the hell not?
Sorry for the long post. You probably didn't learn anything new, but if you did, you're welcome :)
Have a good one!
Dave
Here's a few interesting things about your post Dave. The removable drives you have are exactly the same as the ones that I have in my external bays! I just don't have the internal docking bay for my current PC.
My experience is that every PC you have gets polluted over time. Crap gets installed, uninstalled, reinstalled, upgraded, corrupted, blah, blah, blah... Unfortunately, things don't always get cleaned up correctly and soon you have leftover bits and pieces that clog up the system. I've got unknown, but temporary or backup looking files all over the place and my registry files are over 90 MB! I was just thinking that with three different uses that this problem would happen even faster (and I don't want to be reformatting and reinstalling if I don't need to).
Also, the settings for one type of use are not necessarily what you'd want for another type of use. In my case, programs that need to run for business like AutoCAD, Carbonite (my online 24/7 backup) and TurtleSVN (a versioning and release utility) like to make context-sensitive menu items (those things you see listed when you right-click objects) and database servers tend to run all the time as well. All of these things get in the way of making music or playing games, plus they probably want different hardware or settings as well. I've already wondered how my racing game setup (a chassis with a racing seat, 7.1 surround sound built in with a steering wheel and pedals) would coexist with the audio and controllers for my music studio (currently a Layla 24 and a MIDISport 8x8).
My original plan wasn't to boot externally (if I said that in my first post I didn't mean it that way), it was to have three internal harddrives - one for each purpose - then use the external harddrives for data storage.
Right now I'm thinking I'll just have to snap back to reality for a while and build a kickass work box (though incorporating a docking bay like you and Charger have mentioned). I'm thinking of an 80 GB SSD drive for the OS (for fast bootup, quick launching of programs and speedy temporary files), then two large 7200 RPM (or faster) SATA 6 GBS drives for data. Not sure about the cost to Hawaii, but really nice 1 TB drives are $54 on Amazon and 2 TB drives are only $119. So a RAID of two identical drives would probably be sweet for a long time.
Later, once I have money again, then I can entertain getting one or two more systems for the music and gaming (music first!). I hear that more good stuff is coming from Intel later this year - while I may not want THAT, it usually means that the stuff one or two versions back become really cheap. ;)
Screw the docking bay, buy a case that's got one built in. My new case:
http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?category_id=19&product_id=2970
Thermaltake makes one with 2 sata docks on top (V9 BlacX), and that was in the running, but reviews say that the metal for the case is flimsy, and personally I don't love that the drive docks point straight up. With the coolermaster case the drive slides in on an angle--more conducive for tight spaces. Plus, CoolerMaster cases are the best I've ever worked inside of.