The Watering Hole

after much deliberation (39 years)and going through recent events, I am now a complete Atheist! I had always been on the fence but had a belief in a supreme being but I realize now that its just a fairy tail.

 ;)

;D

craig I got the sustainer earlier this week. now ive got to figure out how to install it?  I wonder how many guitar bodies im going to have to go thru :D

Sweet...another one sees the path of truth.

Welcome to the world of reality.

The — Jan 10, 2009after much deliberation (39 years)and going through recent events, I am now a complete Atheist! I had always been on the fence but had a belief in a supreme being but I realize now that its just a fairy tail.

I like that you spelled it "tail" - that was unintentionally funny.

I find the world much more exciting and interesting since I shed my religious faith. It comes with the whole "there's always something new to learn" thing.

Tripper

Fenderbender — Jan 10, 2009Sweet...another one sees the path of truth.

nah, more like "another one doesn't get his way, and thus says there must be no God."

No disrespect to assman, but I know what happened yesterday, and understand fully his disapproval.  But again, this is just "I didn't get my way" and maybe even "the right thing didn't happen" so I don't believe.  

This would be like me saying "I prayed hard for months, and so did hundreds of other Christians, and my dad died anyway, therefore, there is no God, because he could have stopped this if he were real."  

But, if it were that simple, then basically, no Christian would have died in the last 2000 years.  No Christian would ever get sick, have financial problems, relationship problems, teenagers who aren't perfect, hangnails......    And if all there were true, then FAITH would not be required because even the most devout non-believer would have seen years ago that Christians have perfect lives and nothing bad ever happens too them.  

But that would create it's own set of problems since then everyone would be a Christian, and the world would be full of wealthy people who couldn't find a 20x20 lot to build a home, since nobody ever died, and the world would be wildly over-populated  ;D

Just oversimplifying again, since you all know "the other side" of the "I didn't get my way" or "God won't prove himself in the undeniable way I demand that he does, so I don't believe him" argument.  

Oops, how did I get down here again?  

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 11, 2009[quote author=Fenderbender link=1231566071/0#3 date=1231607459]Sweet...another one sees the path of truth.

nah, more like "another one doesn't get his way, and thus says there must be no God."

No disrespect to assman, but I know what happened yesterday, and understand fully his disapproval.  But again, this is just "I didn't get my way" and maybe even "the right thing didn't happen" so I don't believe.  

This would be like me saying "I prayed hard for months, and so did hundreds of other Christians, and my dad died anyway, therefore, there is no God, because he could have stopped this if he were real."  

But, if it were that simple, the basically, no Christian would have died in the last 2000 years.  No Christian would ever get sick, have financial problems, relationship problems, teenagers who aren't perfect, hangnails......    And if all there were true, then FAITH would not be required because even the most devout non-believer would have seen years ago that Christians have perfect lives and nothing bad ever happens too them.  

But that would create it's own set of problems since then everyone would be a Christian, and the world would be full of wealthy people who couldn't find a 20x20 lot to build a home, since nobody ever died.   ;D

Just oversimplifying again, since you all know "the other side" of the "I didn't get my way" or "God won't prove himself in the undeniable way I demand that he does, so I don't believe him" argument.  

Oops, how did I get down here again?  


howie,

friday was the nail in the coffin, the nail was in place many, many years ago. ive taken 39 years to make this decision.  I have nothing against religion and people who believe in God that's everyone's right.   I hope you can respect my belief  by not trying to justify why im now an athiest, ive thought this out long and hard enough and it wasnt just friday.

PS. my custody trial wasnt about getting my way, it was about keeping my daughter safe and in a loving environment.

God, or the bible, ask alot from us. He ask us to believe in him on faith alone. Then he uses hell to scare us into believing. If we choose to believe in him under these conditions, we should expect him to do some things for us. I'm not talking about stupid stuff like winning the a million dollars.

I'm talking about taking care of us as we are suppose to be his children.

I believed for 38 or 39 years. I prayed for different stuff which never included material things. Not one time did God ever help anyone I prayed for. Not one time did he ever do a fatherly deed. Not one time did he ever help anyone out that was suffering.

I don't know what went on with Assmans custody thing, but I went through the same bullshit. As my sone gets older, the worse off he is with his so-called mother. I prayed, nothing happened.

As God......he has responsibility, imo. And he fails at those responsibilities.

So, how can one be expected to believe in a God thing that lets his children suffer needlessly?

Not to mention the lack of evidence of his existence and the fact that a bunce of crazy men wrote a book about this God and we are simply expected to believe.

Assman,

for the record, I said, and again say, that I knew what happened that day.  And I can FULLY understand why you'd be upset.  So would I.  You know I feel bad for you about that particular incident, as I would figure you might about the passing of my father.  

I was just saying that, I can't say, "I didn't get my way, and what I wanted was for the good of everyone, so now I don't believe."  You said "final nail in the coffin."  So you acknowledge that it was part of it.  I have a problem with that because I don't want a friend to be led astray because of something that didn't go his way.  You can't "test God."  But he can test you...  

Again, I'm only saying, if you don't believe, you don't.  But you can't say "but I will if I get my way" or " I did but I don't anymore because I didn't get my way."  My example about about nothing bad ever happening to a Christian is the most oversimplified example I can come up with about how you dn't just get to pick and choose about what it takes to make you believe in God.  He said FAITH is required.  Either you have it or you don't.  Some people get MORE THAN ENOUGH evidence to prove to them that he exists.  Some don't get it on their terms and don't believe.  Your choice.  Don't make the wrong one because you didn't get what you wanted.  

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 12, 2009Assman,

for the record, I said, and again say, that I knew what happened that day.  And I can FULLY understand why you'd be upset.  So would I.  You know I feel bad for you about that particular incident, as I would figure you might about the passing of my father.  

I was just saying that, I can't say, "I didn't get my way, and what I wanted was for the good of everyone, so now I don't believe."  You said "final nail in the coffin."  So you acknowledge that it was part of it.  I have a problem with that because I don't want a friend to be led astray because of something that didn't go his way.  You can't "test God."  But he can test you...  

Again, I'm only saying, if you don't believe, you don't.  But you can't say "but I will if I get my way" or " I did but I don't anymore because I didn't get my way."  My example about about nothing bad ever happening to a Christian is the most oversimplified example I can come up with about how you dn't just get to pick and choose about what it takes to make you believe in God.  He said FAITH is required.  Either you have it or you don't.  Some people get MORE THAN ENOUGH evidence to prove to them that he exists.  Some don't get it on their terms and don't believe.  Your choice.  Don't make the wrong one because you didn't get what you wanted.  

like i said it wasnt about me getting my way, it was about keeping my daughter safe. I wouldnt file a case just to get what I want. I did it to keep my little girl safe. So yes this had something to do with my change in beliefs but it wasnt the only thing, it was evenly weighted with other observations over my lifetime.  

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 11, 2009[quote author=Fenderbender link=1231566071/0#3 date=1231607459]Sweet...another one sees the path of truth.

nah, more like "another one doesn't get his way, and thus says there must be no God."
There are deep intellectual reasons to disbelieve in the concept of God (and especially the personal God of the Judeo-Christian tradition). It doesn't have to just be what most Christians seem to think; that we're just bratty children who always want to get our way.

No disrespect to assman, but I know what happened yesterday, and understand fully his disapproval.  But again, this is just "I didn't get my way" and maybe even "the right thing didn't happen" so I don't believe.

Hardly. He's been leaning this way for a long time, and I sense this one last little thing made him realize how empty the idea of God truly is.  

This would be like me saying "I prayed hard for months, and so did hundreds of other Christians, and my dad died anyway, therefore, there is no God, because he could have stopped this if he were real."

It should instead give you evidence that prayer is pointless except to make yourself feel better, if it were hundreds of people and the same thing happened. Because no one remembers an unanswered prayer, but they attribute all the answered ones to the glory of God. What did Garth sing? Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers? God gives a LOT of gifts, I guess... 

But, if it were that simple, then basically, no Christian would have died in the last 2000 years. No Christian would ever get sick, have financial problems, relationship problems, teenagers who aren't perfect, hangnails......    And if all there were true, then FAITH would not be required because even the most devout non-believer would have seen years ago that Christians have perfect lives and nothing bad ever happens too them.

But aren't you ignoring the possibility that faith is just a psychological crutch people use to cope with adversity? Like I alluded to before, you'll always give thanks and praise to God when things go your way, but never call him into question when they don't? How is that healthy in any way? Sounds like a dysfunctional relationship to me...  

Just oversimplifying again, since you all know "the other side" of the "I didn't get my way" or "God won't prove himself in the undeniable way I demand that he does, so I don't believe him" argument.

 
You oversimplify EVERYTHING when it comes to this topic. You assume that unbelievers give a shit whether God "proves" himself or not. Most don't. Most of us have realized that believing in God has as much support in reality as believing in any mythical character.

Religious faith is an invention that is used by individuals to cope and console, used by institutions (like organized religion and "faith-based" governments) to corral and control, and used by those consumed with hate and judgment to justify their evil and oppression. The one thing all of these people tend to have in common is a distaste for accepting reality for what it is: ugly and complicated, and not up to them.

But that's just an example of how we disagree, and I'm sure you'll find my bluntness about it offensive...

Oops, how did I get down here again?  

I don't know why you'd subject yourself to these challenges again. It's too dangerous. ;)
Tripper

Religion preys on the down and out. That's good for religion at first. Until the down and out realize the promises of religion and the head of the religion, God, do not help matters at all. The promises go unfulfilled. The strong move on, the weak stay in the club. Some realize this and accept reality, some simply ignore the fact that it's a lie, and cling to the club as if acceptence is enough.

They attend the bar on Saturday night, the other bar on Sunday morning. How sweet. Their weekends are planned.

Religious faith is an invention that is used by individuals to cope and console, used by institutions (like organized religion and "faith-based" governments) to corral and control, and used by those consumed with hate and judgment to justify their evil and oppression.

Religion preys on the down and out. That's good for religion at first. Until the down and out realize the promises of religion and the head of the religion, God, do not help matters at all. The promises go unfulfilled. The strong move on, the weak stay in the club. Some realize this and accept reality, some simply ignore the fact that it's a lie, and cling to the club as if acceptence is enough.

My GOD, I'm so glad that I've never been a part of any religion like you guys describe. Nor, do I even know of any, other than the crap you read in the news about some freaks somewhere.   "Justify even and oppression?"  "Preys on the down and out?"  "Corral and control, and used by those consumded by hate and judgement?"  

I don't know what the frick kind of church YOU guys went too, but no wonder you are so messed up.   ;D ;D

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 12, 2009Religious faith is an invention that is used by individuals to cope and console, used by institutions (like organized religion and "faith-based" governments) to corral and control, and used by those consumed with hate and judgment to justify their evil and oppression.

Religion preys on the down and out. That's good for religion at first. Until the down and out realize the promises of religion and the head of the religion, God, do not help matters at all. The promises go unfulfilled. The strong move on, the weak stay in the club. Some realize this and accept reality, some simply ignore the fact that it's a lie, and cling to the club as if acceptence is enough.

My GOD, I'm so glad that I've never been a part of any religion like you guys describe. Nor, do I even know of any, other than the crap you read in the news about some freaks somewhere.   "Justify even and oppression?"  "Preys on the down and out?"  "Corral and control, and used by those consumded by hate and judgement?"  

I don't know what the frick kind of church YOU guys went too, but no wonder you are so messed up.   ;D ;D

Church is a gathering place. Religion is the preyer along with it's inhabitants.

Most people involved in church services, religion, are so out of touch with reality that they don't realize the uselessness of what they are doing.

People do drugs drink, etc, for the same purpose as they attend church......to escape reality in some way. Although you have to add the fact that they have been brainwashed into believing that if they don't, they'll burn in a pit of fire for eternity. Horseshit.

I, personally, have to much to do than to waste my time trying to have a insane relationship with an insane being. Read the entire Bible and explain to me why you think this creature is about love and stuff. ;D And why would anyone believe the authors of this book were sane, in their right mind. ;D Sounds to me like they were escaping reality with the best possible substance available. ;D ;D

Church is a gathering place. Religion is the preyer along with it's inhabitants.

Most people involved in church services, religion, are so out of touch with reality that they don't realize the uselessness of what they are doing.

People do drugs drink, etc, for the same purpose as they attend church......to escape reality in some way. Although you have to add the fact that they have been brainwashed into believing that if they don't, they'll burn in a pit of fire for eternity. Horseshit.

This is actually one of my biggest issues with most of the things said here.  Tell me exactly what facts this statement is based on.  I know hundreds and hundreds of people who attend church weekly.  I don't know ONE who does to to escape reality.  I don't know ONE who is brainwashed.  I don't know ONE who is out of touch with reality by any other standard, than the fact that they disagree with your beliefs on God.  

You guys do this all the time here.  Another one is the whole "blind mindless followers" thing you guys play, and how they don't WANT you to really know much, just enough to keep you coming back.  That's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever heard.  I've been in churches all of my life, that go out of their way to educate people about these things.  In depth "here's why we believe what we do" studies, and in depth "here's the evidence to prove what we teach" info.  I don't know what church says "believe this and don't ask any questions" like you guys all act like happens at every church.  I'm sure there are some, but I've never been to one nor do I know directly of one.  

Since I have neither the time, nor the inclination to stay down here 5 hours a day providing information for you enlightened ones, that you'd never believe anyway, I think I'll let you return to your normal programming at this time.   ;D ;D

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 12, 2009Religious faith is an invention that is used by individuals to cope and console, used by institutions (like organized religion and "faith-based" governments) to corral and control, and used by those consumed with hate and judgment to justify their evil and oppression.

Religion preys on the down and out. That's good for religion at first. Until the down and out realize the promises of religion and the head of the religion, God, do not help matters at all. The promises go unfulfilled. The strong move on, the weak stay in the club. Some realize this and accept reality, some simply ignore the fact that it's a lie, and cling to the club as if acceptence is enough.

My GOD, I'm so glad that I've never been a part of any religion like you guys describe. Nor, do I even know of any, other than the crap you read in the news about some freaks somewhere.   "Justify even and oppression?"
That's EVIL and oppresssion. At least fucking quote me right. And you are a part of one of those religions. Yours is called Christianity, right? It's been used by humans for exactly what I describe on numerous occasions throughout history, which is fine, since humans invented it around a bunch of other religions' myths.

"Corral and control, and used by those consumded by hate and judgement?"

Baptist fire and brimstone preachers do this. People who fear Jesus missed the fucking point. Churches that shun members who do not follow their rules of living life are consumed by their judgment. They can't handle being around people a little different than they are, even though their hero, imaginary Jesus, spent almost all his time with the dregs of society. The thousands upon thousands of churches in the USA that condemn gay people are consumed by their hate, and have fudged the meaning of their Bible to go along with this hatred, ignoring all the other shit that people of all sexual preferences do that God considers just as evil...like eating shellfish, having sex with a woman during menses, and merely suggesting we follow a different God.

I don't know what the frick kind of church YOU guys went too, but no wonder you are so messed up.   ;D ;D

I went to loving Roman Catholic parishes that were full of priests and parishoners who treated me kindly (by and large), but I don't base my opinions on religion on my small-scope personal anecdotes, I base them on history - the big picture.

WE'RE messed up? You're the one that believes in an imaginary man in the sky who will punish the fuck out of you if you don't behave, and even more if you don't believe in him. But he loves you.

You're in a co-dependent relationship with a figment of your imagination.

But it's comforting to you, and it provides some structure and gives you answers for the unanswerable that you accept, so rock on!
Tripper

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 12, 2009This is actually one of my biggest issues with most of the things said here.  Tell me exactly what facts this statement is based on.  I know hundreds and hundreds of people who attend church weekly.  I don't know ONE who does to to escape reality.  I don't know ONE who is brainwashed.  I don't know ONE who is out of touch with reality by any other standard, than the fact that they disagree with your beliefs on God.

Then you don't know enough people - or more likely - have no idea how to see it. You're a big fan of the "intimate personal anecdotes being what really matters", so I think your scope's a teensy bit too narrow to really tell who's escapist, who's brainwashed, and who's out of touch with reality.

You guys do this all the time here.  Another one is the whole "blind mindless followers" thing you guys play, and how they don't WANT you to really know much, just enough to keep you coming back.  That's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever heard.  I've been in churches all of my life, that go out of their way to educate people about these things.

But these are all exercises in DISINFORMATION. No one really welcomes valid questions, or gives really solid answers - just answers that are ACCEPTABLE to those with this predisposition of fantastic thought and supernatural belief.  

In depth "here's why we believe what we do" studies, and in depth "here's the evidence to prove what we teach" info.

I've experienced both of these things, and neither has the depth you claim or the evidence to support the teaching. The evidence is all self-referential, "it is because the Bible says it is, and that's why the Bible is true" apologetics horsecrap.

I don't know what church says "believe this and don't ask any questions" like you guys all act like happens at every church.  I'm sure there are some, but I've never been to one nor do I know directly of one.

It's much more subtle than that - you are guided to belief, gently led along the path where Jesus explains everything.  

Since I have neither the time, nor the inclination to stay down here 5 hours a day providing information for you enlightened ones, that you'd never believe anyway, I think I'll let you return to your normal programming at this time.   ;D ;D

Well, you're making the assumption that we haven't seen all your "information" already. Uh, we have.

Some "information" only seems like information when your view of the world is colored by fantasy. The fantasy of a supernatural God, personal and intervening in your everyday life.

I'm sure that assessment will seem insulting, but it's equally as insulting for you to assume that:
1. Our broad statements about religion apply to every case - YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY - you may be one of the lucky ones who only experiences love and kindness around religion. It doesn't change the fact that it's flawed at its core, and that any benefits have more to do with the human beings making a choice to be good to each other more than anything.
2. We don't know what we're talking about. We do. We just disagree with you. You don't have any "special knowledge" that makes a better case for religion.
3. Your position is fundamentally the correct one. I don't assume I'm right, I just think I am based on the evidence (or lack thereof). I could be wrong, and that would be fine. I don't think you'd be nearly as cool with being wrong about religion.

Enjoy the other parts of this site! :)
Tripper

There is no such thing as religion.
There are far too many religions, sects and cults for it to be a singular noun.

That fact alone demonstrates CLEARLY  that religion is of  human construction.
The FACT is everyone is atheistic to religion that they do not subscribe to.

If only one religion is right - ergo all others are false.
It is but a short step from that position to deem all as false.

For a god to exist through the evidence of religion we are asked to believe that he is very secretive (always relies on faith alone), but gives out his word through selected men in a countless myriad of different miraculous ways to form a myriad of different religions many of which are now extinct through annihilation by other religions love for  conversion through the sword.

Maybe Satan is in charge of religion.

Maybe God hopes we all have enough faith to reject religion and unite.

Maybe God's word  is in the rational and the religion was sent to confuse and divide.

Maybe God's word is written in a life capable of witnessing something of the awesome scales of the universe from the cosmic to the quantum,

Maybe not - but it is far far more awesome than the crap in the myriad of lame ass holy story books that form religion(s).

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 12, 2009Church is a gathering place. Religion is the preyer along with it's inhabitants.

Most people involved in church services, religion, are so out of touch with reality that they don't realize the uselessness of what they are doing.

People do drugs drink, etc, for the same purpose as they attend church......to escape reality in some way. Although you have to add the fact that they have been brainwashed into believing that if they don't, they'll burn in a pit of fire for eternity. Horseshit.

This is actually one of my biggest issues with most of the things said here.  Tell me exactly what facts this statement is based on.  I know hundreds and hundreds of people who attend church weekly.  I don't know ONE who does to to escape reality.  I don't know ONE who is brainwashed.  I don't know ONE who is out of touch with reality by any other standard, than the fact that they disagree with your beliefs on God.  

You guys do this all the time here.  Another one is the whole "blind mindless followers" thing you guys play, and how they don't WANT you to really know much, just enough to keep you coming back.  That's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever heard.  I've been in churches all of my life, that go out of their way to educate people about these things.  In depth "here's why we believe what we do" studies, and in depth "here's the evidence to prove what we teach" info.  I don't know what church says "believe this and don't ask any questions" like you guys all act like happens at every church.  I'm sure there are some, but I've never been to one nor do I know directly of one.  

Since I have neither the time, nor the inclination to stay down here 5 hours a day providing information for you enlightened ones, that you'd never believe anyway, I think I'll let you return to your normal programming at this time.   ;D ;D

DTR

If your in church beliving in a God and trying to have conversations with him, and even thinking he somehow answers you every once in a while, your certainly not living in reality. And church is a gathering place....for the flock. You certainly can't base fact and fiction on your very limited circumstances. And that's part of religious peoples problem is that they won't go out on a limb and consider other real factual information. And just because you've never been to a church that says don't question, doesn't mean they don't exist.  

When God created man she was only joking. ;D

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 12, 2009Church is a gathering place. Religion is the preyer along with it's inhabitants.

Most people involved in church services, religion, are so out of touch with reality that they don't realize the uselessness of what they are doing.

People do drugs drink, etc, for the same purpose as they attend church......to escape reality in some way. Although you have to add the fact that they have been brainwashed into believing that if they don't, they'll burn in a pit of fire for eternity. Horseshit.

This is actually one of my biggest issues with most of the things said here.  Tell me exactly what facts this statement is based on.  I know hundreds and hundreds of people who attend church weekly.  I don't know ONE who does to to escape reality.  I don't know ONE who is brainwashed.  I don't know ONE who is out of touch with reality by any other standard, than the fact that they disagree with your beliefs on God.  

You guys do this all the time here.  Another one is the whole "blind mindless followers" thing you guys play, and how they don't WANT you to really know much, just enough to keep you coming back.  That's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever heard.  I've been in churches all of my life, that go out of their way to educate people about these things.  In depth "here's why we believe what we do" studies, and in depth "here's the evidence to prove what we teach" info.  I don't know what church says "believe this and don't ask any questions" like you guys all act like happens at every church.  I'm sure there are some, but I've never been to one nor do I know directly of one.  

Since I have neither the time, nor the inclination to stay down here 5 hours a day providing information for you enlightened ones, that you'd never believe anyway, I think I'll let you return to your normal programming at this time.   ;D ;D
This is an appeal to numbers and an appeal to authority.  Just because you have not experienced this doens't not mean that it is not so (Randy Jr.)  It is also possible that perhaps your view is distorted being on the inside looking out and thus cannot see the truth (I'm not saying THAT statement is right I'm just saying it's possible).

All one has to do is consort a history book to support the statements that people have made about the down side of religion up to the point that I respeonded to this post of yours.

Furthermore you say the church goes out of its way to educate it;s flock and I can tell you wiht absolute authority that there are questions that would come straight from the Bible....KJV if it must be that way that I could walk into ANY church in the world and ask those questions and be lucky to get an answer from anyone in that church.  MAYBE a minister that remembers certian information from back when he was being trained to be a minister.....but there are certian things that are philosohipcal and historical about Christianity that many Christians simply are unaware of which is sad when you tell me that your church goes out of its way to educate.

If you would like to put ME to the test.....I'd be glad to ask YOU a few very simple questions.....One at a time......and I would gather that you woulnd't be able to answer said questions off the top of your head.  ou'd also be be challenged when y ou read the Bible and looked up said questions.  I'll even be happy enough to QUOTE the scripture just that you don't have to find it.  I'll even spot you time to research your answer and consult one of your "expert super smart bible thumer" buddies.  

Are you up for the challenge?

Howie doesn't know ONE, he knows thousands!  :D ;D

(BTW - ALL members of a church are escaping reality.  ;) )

The reality is that the people attending church don't live in a world of reality. :o

IYHO, (in your humble opinion) of course.   ;D

DreamTheaterRules — Jan 15, 2009IYHO, (in your humble opinion) of course.   ;D

Hook has HUMBLE opinions?  :D

(I figured that'd be a really funny and ironic thing coming from me, Dr. Hubris)
Tripper

I didn't think I was very humble. ;D ;D ;D