41 posts
I've come to really be comfortable with my agnosticism/atheism at this point.
I realize in a way it's funny to post something like this in the Religion forum, since the absence of belief isn't really something that applies to belief structures or religions...
I do have to say that the more I think about the silly beliefs people have, the more I realize how pervasive having silly beliefs is, even among people who claim to be atheists or agnostics. It's the whole supernatural thing - being superstitious, believing in alien visits on UFOs, psychic powers, astrology, ghosts - it's all pretty much connected, but some people don't really believe it is.
Fantastic beliefs are fantastic beliefs, and the sooner we come to accept that, the sooner the world starts to make more sense and the sooner we're able to really make more sense of the world for ourselves...
Thoughts?
Tripper
Tripper — Dec 03, 2008I've come to really be comfortable with my agnosticism/atheism at this point.
I realize in a way it's funny to post something like this in the Religion forum, since the absence of belief isn't really something that applies to belief structures or religions...
I do have to say that the more I think about the silly beliefs people have, the more I realize how pervasive having silly beliefs is, even among people who claim to be atheists or agnostics. It's the whole supernatural thing - being superstitious, believing in alien visits on UFOs, psychic powers, astrology, ghosts - it's all pretty much connected, but some people don't really believe it is.
Fantastic beliefs are fantastic beliefs, and the sooner we come to accept that, the sooner the world starts to make more sense and the sooner we're able to really make more sense of the world for ourselves...
Thoughts?
Tripper
I have to agree a lot with you. I lived for years in the shadow of doubt and was just too scared the consequences of saying my true beliefs out loud. I really thought that if I just kept at it I woudl find some miraculous knowledge that would make sense out of nonsense.
For me.....reading "The God Delusion" really helped me come out of my shell and be comfortable with my thoughts.
I don't really have an issue iwth religion per se....it's what people do with it. I have a profound respect for people that are DEEP with it and have a huge wealth of knowledge on which to stack up their beliefs. When I talk to those people they generally have really good answers for why they do what they do. However, more often than not I find people that have no real good idea why they are of a particular religion. They are content to call themselves a believer and thus not have to hear shit on going to hell and all that. They aren't REALLY devout. They don't REALLY like going to church in fact they rarely if ever go. They are religious on paper....and that's about it. Which funny enough makes them about as religious as I am.
;D
Personally, I've seen enough evidence to "believe" that there is definitely something more going on, but people love to color the picture only a few ways. Either you 100% have to believe that there's some supreme being and all the stories that go along with that, you are flat out an athiest and NOTHING is more extraordinary than it seems or you're a complete "woo woo" and MUST go along with all the new age baggage that comes with that.
If that's the case, then that's the exact journey I've made throughout my life. First I was the complete religious boy growing up, then (for really a very brief time) I would have been considered the perfect athiest and finally I became a total new age nut.
To be honest, people who are solidly from all three conclusions can be very annoying to me.
I spent a LOT of time learning about my religion and, if allowed to really research things and ask questions (which many religions restrict for good reason), any one with a brain starts to realize that there is something mighty wrong going on. I had been so brain-washed growing up that the notion that god didn't exist exactly as specified wasn't even a consideration (athiests were simply people that just didn't know the truth or were too selfish to put the work in that was required). No wonder the masses of the "faithful" are always referred to as the sheep! When I was reading some really far out books and came across the line "...but, of course, since God doesn't really exist, ..." it actually blew me away. I had been feeling very uncomfortable with my beliefs and have always had a very good intuition when something doesn't feel right. My first reaction was "Holy fuck! THAT'S why I've been feeling this way!" Soon after I was really depressed that life was only what I saw. It REALLY took all of the purpose out of living.
Needless to say, even those beliefs started to feel incorrect yet people try to paint you as one or the other as if those were the only two options (something that totally reminds me of having to be either a Republican or a Democrat when both are repulsive to me).
Anyway, I read a LOT, opened my mind a LOT and experimented with many different concepts. I allowed myself to meet and listen to many different people that I would never have been around before and chose not to judge any until I had heard their whole story and done some verification on my own.
Here's the problem with all of the above three choices: Aspects of each are probably dead on but, like an asshole legislator tacking on bullshit extras to a bill that he knows everyone wants, each "camp" has to make broader assumptions that go beyond reality but include lots of implied power and control over the masses.
Churches are very selective in the information they give to the people. For centuries, all opposing views to whatever they have decided weren't even allowed to be considered and volumes of knowledge were destroyed or buried. The Catholics, for example, used to only hold their masses in Latin to further make it so the common person couldn't find fault with their statements. Who knows what the Vatican really has saved in their catacombs!
Although there doesn't seem to be anywhere near the preaching or converting going on, athiests still practice many of the same tactics as the churches do. They hide knowledge that contradicts what they say, they talk in languages that the lay person can't understand (just look at any blackboard behind a physist!) and they strive to control and keep in line their following (many professors must tow the line to keep their funding and can only get things published that have been reviewed for approval by leaders in the field, etc.).
Needless to say, the New Age area isn't much different (though by its very nature it can be less restrictive). The biggest problem here is that EVERY possible solution, fairy tale or whacked out theory seems to get lumped in with little of it being proveable (similar to religion which uses brain-washing tactics and a big stick to keep people in line).
I think all of them stem from human being's natural curiousity, selfishness and need to believe that there is something more out there. The only issue being that this leaves the bulk of them wide open to be controlled by others (good intentioned or not).
I also think that simply saying "This is just how things are!" is taking the lazy way out. Religions try but fail under any close scrutiny, atheists are unable to explain many things (like how particles can go forwards and backwards in time - something that has been proven to occur) and the woo woos are typically so far on the fringe that they will tend to believe absolutely ANTHING.
So where does that leave us?
Well I, for one, am also very comfortable with my current beliefs. It took a LOT of learning and searching but things all seem to fit into place for me now and it makes sense (plus it completely explains all of the other beliefs AND why they each have their limitations).
My background is heavy in the math and science realm and I have a natural curiousity without the fear of asking questions. Many people will believe whatever they are told to believe if it comes from someone they deem is knowledgable (parents, preachers, doctors, scientists, etc.). I usually wasn't satisfied with that. Once I started getting into things like quantum mechanics, accelerated learning, hypnosis and other science areas I started getting some real eye-opening stuff.
I think a lot of things that appear to be supernatural are actually explainable (and real). Many of the staples from science fiction (like anti-matter for example) have their roots in reality. Just look at all the things we can't see that we now know exist (and we can even use): Xrays, microwaves, gravity, magnetism, etc. Can you even imagine what a priest thousands of years ago would appear like if he had access to the technology that's currently in your house now?
I'm guessing that a lot of the "fantastic" stuff will probably be eventually proven to be fantasies, but I also think that much will be found to be true in some respects. Anyone who's seen a really good magician strutting his stuff will be in complete disbelief, at least until they've been shown the secret.
I've personally seen an 80 year-old grandmother bend a steel rod around itself that I couldn't get to even start to bend (and I definitely tried). I've seen and bent spoons in ways that seem ridiculous (they begin to feel and act like chewed bubble gum - I've kept several examples). I've read about several wild things during my PhD work and have seen some pretty unexplainable things that can be accomplished with hypnosis and NLP. I've been on the receiving end of a clairvoyant's comments and I've even been in workshop where we were taught how to do primitive telekinesis (including successfully doing so ten out of ten times with someone I had just met). During my journeys into other alternate states of mind I have managed a few things that scared the crap out of me (to the point that I stopped experimenting!). When you start talking about more scientific areas, consider that it has been proven that how you think about something can change the very molecules it is made of or that your body has recreated itself multiple times yet you still think of yourself as yourself (if every cell in your body is different, then where is the memory of who you are kept?). Going on, while researching ways to understand commodity trading, I have seen some extremely scary stuff that would definitely be called astrology (if those BS horoscopes used these approaches there would be far more believers). In a lot of cases it's all a matter of how far something is taken. Most humans require baby steps before accepting truly wild theories. For example, you may believe that the movements of the planets has NOTHING to do with your life. So why do the tides rise and fall in a completely predictable manner based on the cycles of the moon? Why does the sun set and rise so predictably? Why is there statistically more crime during a full moon and beard growth rates change during differerent lunar periods? People can believe in those things, but don't want to take the next steps. Here's something to think about: The horoscopes you read for fun are based on geocentric ephemeris (meaning they think everything revolves around the Earth - just another of man's egotistical notion - no wonder they have to take into account retrogrades when planets stop moving forward and go backwards for a bit!). I'd imagine that things would be far more predictable if Heliocentric ephemeris' were used (which take the Sun as the center of our solar system instead). I doubt it would tell you who you should be dating, but it WILL help uncover some hidden patterns that exist below the surface!
So are those things "fantastic?" On the surface, sure. But so is putting cold food into a little plastic box and having burning hot food a couple of minutes later as well as putting a little piece of plastic against your ear and talking to someone on the other side of the world. It wouldn't surprise me if some basic fundamental of the universe is discovered that explains some of the fantastic stuff (some aspects of string theory, for example, would explain how one object could have complete knowledge of another object even if they are light years apart).
The bottom line is that we are more than we realize and so is the universe. Miracles CAN happen and without "divine" intervention (and, as such, will probably stopped being called miracles once the technique is well known). I've only touched on some of the aspects of each area and didn't even really go into my current beliefs (which have been posted about before anyway). The thing about my current beliefs that makes me feel I'm on the right track though is that I don't have to prove them to others.
In case you're curious, yes, I used exactly all of my allotted 10,000 characters in that post. ;)
Leaving all religious discussion out of my reply, in response only to the "unbelievable or fantastic" being true. Craig said a lot of what I would have, so I don't need to even come close to 10,000 characters. But, on the topic of UFO's. Do I believe that the Earth has been visited by extraterrestrial life? No, save perhaps some microbes that may have been attached to some comet or meteor. Do I understand that it is mathematically highly improbable, nearly impossible, that we are the only intelligent civilization in the universe? Yes. Of course there is life elsewhere, likely civilizzations in varying stages of development. However, as Drake's Equation makes obvious, if the lifetime of a civlization, from the first discovery of fire to the very end of said civlization's existence were represented by a camera flash, what are the odds given a few hundred billion or more cameras going off randomly over the course of a few years that any two would coincide? So, while I believe the univers to be teeming with life, I think the odds of us actually making contact with other life are so far remote as to render the whole discussion moot.
There are a lot of things though that we have not even scratched the surface of. Quantum physics is full fo seemingly bizarre, wierd, provable theories. Quantum Entanglement is the idea that 2 particles created simultaneously are permanently connected and a change of state in one may be reflected in the other instantaneously regardless of distance. this single idea sets up all kind of seemingly impossible ideas.
Basically I am just saying that there is a hell of a lot more out there that we haven't even begun to ask ourselves about, that the unknown is so much vastly greater than that which is known, and it can never hurt to keep an open mind, even if it is a highly skeptical one. No, you aren't gonna catch Nessie on a fishing trip in Scotland or go camping with Bigfoot in the great American wilderness, but that does not mean that some very strange and seemingly unexplainable shit does not occur.
Science can't explain Joey
Clearly the only explanation for Joey is the time distortion of repeated alien abduction and probing events.
Excellent post, Craig. I've had plenty of personal experiences with "supernatural" things that I can't really explain - like times in dreams where I've experienced things that didn't happen to me until years later. It could be a misfiring of my brain in some way - kind of like a dream deja vu (I just thought I dreamt it) - or it could be something bigger. It could simply be that I'm selectively remembering things from my dreams that remind me of similar situations, and my brain fills in the details to match my current experience.
I don't know, and science doesn't know yet, either.
I don't reject these possibilities, I take them for what they are: based on what we know about physics, it's highly unlikely that I'm actually dreaming my future. Does it mean we won't learn at some point that there is some larger connection between us, some interwoven "consciousness" that eastern philosophies talk about? Of course not. We go with what we know, we work toward learning more, we dream to give ourselves avenues to explore we otherwise might not.
There's been a lot of co-opting of "Quantum Physics" by the new age community, and not much of it has a good basics in the actual theories of Quantum Physics. I assume, based on my past experience with you, that your intellectual rigor is such that you are aware of the more ridiculous claims (e.g. "The Secret", "What The #$*! Do We Know?").
Can you direct me to some good items to read on the "new age" topics that you find compelling? I'm always up for learning stuff on the fringes of science...it's fascinating to me.
Tripper
Here's one:
http://www.amazon.com/Holographic-Universe-Michael-Talbot/dp/0060922583I'll add others as I think of them. Some that I've read are almost good for a laugh and others are a bit creepier (since they "might" be more factual - lol). One I can't think of right now tackles one subject, but some of the other stuff inside was more interesting.
I've had somewhat predictive dreams many times over the years. One of the strangest occurred when I was 13. I was in a Church youth group and we were going to go to Knott's Berry Farm (a big amusement park near Disneyland) the next day. My dream was about a girl I'd never seen before who got separated from us. We looked for her for almost two hours and finally found her at a carnival area. Weird dream I thought. So, my Mom drops me off at the meeting place and one of the hotter girls in the group had brought a friend. Yep! You guessed it, the girl from my dream (nice deja vu moment there). Add to it that I thought she was pretty hot and she liked me from the start and I could tell this was going to be a fun trip. When we got there, as usual, we all grouped however we wanted to and started to explore the park. A friend of mine and I managed to get paired with the two girls I mentioned (since he was interested in the other one it worked out well) and off we went. After a while we were looking around where shops, food and restrooms were and then couldn't find Cindy anywhere (the girl who had similarly gone missing in my dream). Needless to say we were just about to start searching for her when I said I had an idea. I kind of led us over by where the carnival area was (while being a bit spooked that the dream was so accurate) but she wasn't there! That threw me off and so we went back to doing a general search for her (all the while I'm bummin' because of missed time with her and the rides!). Somewhere around two hours later we were looping back and went by the carnival area again and... there she was! So my dream was on the money afterall, but I couldn't use any of what I had learned! Obviously when we went to the carnival area early
she wasn't there yet! Maybe if I had asked her in the dream where she had gone originally it would have helped? Heh... It still worked out well in the end though, we hit it off and she went on more of the trips. Later that summer we went back to Knott's and snuck out to the parking lot (you get that stamp on your hand to get back in) where I knew how to open the doors of the VW van by pushing in one of those little side windows. In that van was the first time I got some soon to be followed late that night by some more while on top of about four mattresses stacked in a storage room of a church (where everyone was supposed to be sleeping before getting picked up the next morning). 8-) Considering we were young and not thinking far into the future, no birth control was involved and I can't help but wonder how different things would be if she had got knocked up! (Plus I'd have a kid in their 30's by now! :o )
Tripper — Dec 03, 2008I've come to really be comfortable with my agnosticism/atheism at this point.
If you keep that up, it'll stunt your growth! :D I reckon there is more to the "human" than most are willing to peer into. Our society life limits ones abitlity to venture into the unknown areas of consciousness. The wife, the kids, the job.... the known human life, conflicts greatly with the unknown. Who wants to be willing to sacrifice all for the unknown?
It's much easier to become comfortable and tag it, atheism, catholosism, hinduism, agnostic, muslim, et al.
Some future event will force the human to evole past this comfort zone that we live in, but until then we wander.
I have looked into a lot of things and have become comfortable not looking anymore.
I think it has to be a unified journey into the unknown. The present human ego won't allow it, meaning that any discoveries of importance appear to another as " woo-woo". :D
Equally Comfortable
So are those things "fantastic?" On the surface, sure. But so is putting cold food into a little plastic box and having burning hot food a couple of minutes later as well as putting a little piece of plastic against your ear and talking to someone on the other side of the world.
Yeah but a microwave and a phone are things that can be proven over and over.
The fantastic things you talk about seem to never have any proof.
I would love to see or experience the things your talking about. I really would.
I just don't believe them. Not saying it's impossible.
I'm not saying your lying either. You may believe you have seen or done these things.
All I ask for is proof.
I really do wish I could see someone come into my kitchen and bend one of my spoons with their mind. Or bend an iron bar I have out in my shed with whatever body parts they want. So would everyone in town. One could make quite a fortune doing it.
pickmaster60 — Dec 07, 2008So are those things "fantastic?" On the surface, sure. But so is putting cold food into a little plastic box and having burning hot food a couple of minutes later as well as putting a little piece of plastic against your ear and talking to someone on the other side of the world.
Yeah but a microwave and a phone are things that can be proven over and over.
The fantastic things you talk about seem to never have any proof.
I would love to see or experience the things your talking about. I really would.
I just don't believe them. Not saying it's impossible.
I'm not saying your lying either. You may believe you have seen or done these things.
All I ask for is proof.
I really do wish I could see someone come into my kitchen and bend one of my spoons with their mind. Or bend an iron bar I have out in my shed with whatever body parts they want. So would everyone in town. One could make quite a fortune doing it.
So your only calling him a liar if he can't show proof. I get it. ;D ;D
pickmaster60 — Dec 07, 2008So are those things "fantastic?" On the surface, sure. But so is putting cold food into a little plastic box and having burning hot food a couple of minutes later as well as putting a little piece of plastic against your ear and talking to someone on the other side of the world.
Yeah but a microwave and a phone are things that can be proven over and over.
The fantastic things you talk about seem to never have any proof.
I would love to see or experience the things your talking about. I really would.
I just don't believe them. Not saying it's impossible.
I'm not saying your lying either. You may believe you have seen or done these things.
All I ask for is proof.
I really do wish I could see someone come into my kitchen and bend one of my spoons with their mind. Or bend an iron bar I have out in my shed with whatever body parts they want. So would everyone in town. One could make quite a fortune doing it.
How can you make a fortune bending iron with your mind?
Even if I take pictures of a couple of my twisted spoons I don't see how that will prove anything to you (since you weren't there to see how they were twisted). These all came from a show put on as part of the entertainment at one of the ABH (American Board of Hypnotherapy) conventions. You also forget one thing: All proof is founded in belief.
And not everything in the world requires evidence. ;)
Craig also may refuse to provide you proof, making you wonder. ;D
And he may not give a damn what you require for you to believe something. ;D
Bending spoons is a standard magic trick these days - not much money to be made doing it.
Uri Geller made a fortune out of it early on though
No shit...no, pictures of spoons wouldn't prove anything. ::)
But if one really could bend spoons instead of it being a trick...you certainly could make a good living. Same thing with old ladies bending iron bars! ;D
As you probably know James Randi offers quite a sum for proof of anything like this. That's how :-?
You could offer yourself to science to study you for money as well. Then there would be the paid demonstrations one could do.
That is....if one could do these things for real.
You also forget one thing: All proof is founded in belief.
I didn't forget.
It takes a lot more belief to believe in the stuff your talking about than a microwave oven.
fingers — Dec 07, 2008Bending spoons is a standard magic trick these days - not much money to be made doing it.
Uri Geller made a fortune out of it early on though
To the best of my knowledge, Uri was full of it. If I can find my bar I'll take a picture of it. It only has a very slight arc to it which was all my 6' 2", 245lb sports body could do to it yet a granny in a wheel chair bent hers into a pretzel (and, no, it wasn't made of a different material - they all come out of the same bin). If it's a trick, I'd love to know how it was done (of course, I actually did bend the spoons including a couple of my own once I got home - they're in the same box as the bar, if I find one I'll take pics of both). I don't think these count as super incredible samples, I only think they add doubt.
pickmaster60 — Dec 07, 2008
It takes a lot more belief to believe in the stuff your talking about than a microwave oven.
Really? Wow...
CraigBert — Dec 08, 2008[quote author=pickmaster60 link=1228324276/0#16 date=1228693464]
It takes a lot more belief to believe in the stuff your talking about than a microwave oven.
Really? Wow...
Yep!!....WOWaweewah.
.
fingers — Dec 07, 2008Bending spoons is a standard magic trick these days - not much money to be made doing it.
Uri Geller made a fortune out of it early on though
If one could make a spoon to " begin to feel and act like chewed bubble gum" you could roll it into a ball (and other shapes) and that would beat Uri's trick.....then you could really make a fortune. ;D
CraigBert — Dec 08, 2008[quote author=fingers link=1228324276/0#15 date=1228691755]Bending spoons is a standard magic trick these days - not much money to be made doing it.
Uri Geller made a fortune out of it early on though
To the best of my knowledge, Uri was full of it. If I can find my bar I'll take a picture of it. It only has a very slight arc to it which was all my 6' 2", 245lb sports body could do to it yet a granny in a wheel chair bent hers into a pretzel (and, no, it wasn't made of a different material - they all come out of the same bin). If it's a trick, I'd love to know how it was done (of course, I actually did bend the spoons including a couple of my own once I got home - they're in the same box as the bar, if I find one I'll take pics of both). I don't think these count as super incredible samples, I only think they add doubt.
Why not just do a video and bend a new spoon? That would be cool.
Uri was full of it....but you are not?
Uri needs you to believe that he can do it or he has no act. I've actually done it and couldn't care less if you believe me. Huge difference.
I see what your saying and I didn't expect you would care. Unless I was there watching,you can't prove it,I know that.
Even then....I'm not too sure I would.
I've watched a bunch of people on youtube and tv ect. do it. Some say it's a trick like the magicians and others say it's real. None of it is convincing to me.
I can see you believe what you have seen or done. It's kinda like any religious or paranormal claim.
I can't really say it doesn't happen 100% and you can't really prove it does.
Apparantly Uri was so good at it(trick or real) he convinced some scientists.
I guess in general your post kinda summed it up. You went from a being a christian to atheist,yet something still tugged toward believing the supernatural. Or the natural we just don't know enough about yet.
I chalk it up to human tendency to want to believe in something outside the norm. Reasons like what you said. Kinda depressing that all we have is what we see.
I still am tugged in that direction myself to an extent. Like the tv show..I want to believe. To me it would be fantastic. At least untill it was normal to me. Then it wouldn't be supernatural. ;D
I guess I'm amazed you really believe. I shouldn't be...many do.
"I see what your saying and I didn't expect you would care. Unless I was there watching,you can't prove it,I know that.
Even then....I'm not too sure I would."
Oh....cute. Evidence or not, your not believing him period. What a fundy mindset you have. All your progress with logic and critical thinking just got set back 20 years.
So if God exist, no matter what evidence I have of his existence, your not believing it. So, the hell with science. You just think on your own terms. Doesn't matter if your right or not, your Prickmaster, what you say goes!
;D ;D
Hookbender — Dec 08, 2008"I see what your saying and I didn't expect you would care. Unless I was there watching,you can't prove it,I know that.
Even then....I'm not too sure I would."
Oh....cute. Evidence or not, your not believing him period. What a fundy mindset you have. All your progress with logic and critical thinking just got set back 20 years.
So if God exist, no matter what evidence I have of his existence, your not believing it. So, the hell with science. You just think on your own terms. Doesn't matter if your right or not, your Prickmaster, what you say goes!
;D ;D
What's your point?
Where you get this idea that "no matter what the evidence" crap...... is in your head.
I have not said that or eluded to it.
Nor did I say the hell with science.
It seems you are either making up things to argue with or you just don't understand english. Or evidence for that matter.
There is no way you can reasonably draw such a silly conclusion from what I said. You have some asinine thinking patterns.
Makes you wonder doesn't it? ;D ;D ;D
Thinking pattern? No, not really a pattern. I'm just picking a scab. ;D ;D ;D
Does it hurt? :D
I think Pick should go experience some of this stuff for himself. :)
Hook....How about I just beat your ass?? ;D
I'd like to experience some of it mushroom boy! :)
Why? He doesn't accept "some types of evidence". ;D ;D
Reminds me of a fundy christian. ;D ;D
Hookbender — Dec 08, 2008Why? He doesn't accept "some types of evidence". ;D ;D
Reminds me of a fundy christian. ;D ;D
I think you got it backwards. Some types of evidence are just not good enough. Even if it's good evidence...that don't mean it's true.
pickmaster60 — Dec 08, 2008Hook....How about I just beat your ass?? ;D
I'd like to experience some of it mushroom boy! :)
I work on a schedule. Let me know when you want to experiment with the unknown and I'll work you in for 5 minutes or so. That's about all the time it should take for me to show you logic in a physical manner. ;D ;D
Mushroom boy??? :-/ :-/
Come get you some master herb. ;D ;D
I'd like to be hynotized. Then have the guy make me do something odd like cluck like a chicken or something. make a vid and play it back to me. I have my doubts that I can be hypnotized.
I believe it can happen though.
Once at a comedy club i was picked to try it. apparantly some people are more easily hypnotized than others and he sent me back.
up till then it was rather relaxing and i didn't even think about the crowd.
that guy made these people do the funniest stuff. A lot o fun. i went tosee him again a few months later.
I tried some sel hypnosis rom the web. A guided thing. It was relaxing.
The altered state of mind stuf....I'd like to do that too. Don't know that I want to be frightned though. Craig(mushroom boy).....what kinds of things were so scary about it? Was this like peyote sweat hut? ;D
pickmaster60 — Dec 08, 2008[quote author=Hookbender link=1228324276/25#29 date=1228772039]Why? He doesn't accept "some types of evidence". ;D ;D
Reminds me of a fundy christian. ;D ;D
I think you got it backwards. Some types of evidence are just not good enough. Even if it's good evidence...that don't mean it's true.
Say what? If it's not convincing, it's probably not true. Therefore, not evidence to start with.
I'd like you to discontinue judging my post. Concentrate on your own. ;D ;D ;D
Maybe you should try this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation
Concentrate on logic. ;D ;D ;D
Stratman could give you some tips probably. He's pretty religious in his own mind. ;D ;D
Everyone can be hypnotized, but really no one can be made to do anything that they don't want to on a subconcious level. For fun, I took a class in stage hypnosis and it is very common to send those that aren't completely easy back to the audience. Obviously I can tell you a lot about the subject if you have any specific questions.
The clairvoyant is one of the experiences that scared me (she's actually a trained Hollywood mime and comedian who once coached Robin Williams in his acting). In one of the classes (or whatever they're called) at the ABH conference, she was assigned as my partner (important to note that I'd never met her or had ever heard of her before). She mentioned up front that she tends to pick up things about a person she's around (something that just happens - she doesn't really have control over it) and asked if I minded if she asked me about any of it. Of course I said no since that type stuff was all BS anyway, right? Well, during the next hour or so she said I was "broadcasting" pretty loudly because I was at a period of transition in my life (sounded like typical woo woo crap to me). She then proceeded to tell me that I had just had a long-time GF move out over the last week (correct), her name was Michelle (correct), that both of us had started seeing new people (correct), asked if she had moved in with (forgot his name but she got it right) and asked if I was going to move in with Vanessa since I was getting ready to move to my own place (yes on my new place, with Vanessa or not was still up in the air). She also asked if my knee was doing better, picked the correct knee that I had tweaked and asked if it was due to a jumping sport (it was, beach volleyball). That was pretty wild since no one else there would have known any of that, but the best was yet to come. The convention was held in a hotel that was also hosting a large tech conference. On our first break we were walking out of the room and some guy (probably in his 40's) at an exhibit asked what kind of "woo woo" stuff we were doing in there (he asked it in pretty condescending way). The clairvoyant replied that he was probably just trying to put up a strong front since he still felt that his sister (name correctly inserted here)'s suicide at 13 was his fault. The guy turned completely white and excused himself. We never saw him again, but at the next break a couple of hours later a lady at his booth confirmed that she was accurate and that the guy had left the convention. She then asked how the hell that lady knew about the incident since the guy never talked about it.
Some other very bizarre stuff happened to me at that class, but I'd rather not go into that right now.
I'm not saying that even her accuracy was enough to fully convince me but, as I said, it was one of the scary things that happened directly to me. I've read how horoscopes and TV psychics can deceive you (usually by vagueness where YOU actually supply the answers), but this lady had nothing to gain from any of this and I (on purpose) offered none of the answers. I've also heard that many like this lady wouldn't go on a show like the Amazing Randi's because they know it works for them and don't want the recognition while others have said their abilities don't work for material gain (I would call bullshit on that).
I think it's also important to note that I never said I completely believe any of this, but that I've seen enough to make me think there is more out there than we have scientifically proven so far.
So - She knew all the names and your future and the past history.
Impressive - if I heard that first hand I would be convinced there was something in it.
With a huge sceptical sense that she had cheated.
If that is completely out of the question - you were there on your own and nobody knew you.
and you weren't a local celebrity who met his stalker.
or
the guy that walked out ashen faced - is really thinking - what a vicious bitch get away from it.
Who the fuck was the person who confirmed the story - you didn't know either of them, a stranger confirming a story about a stranger.
Have you ever watched The Sting ?
I bet Kev would want that bitch put to death. ;D ;D
Personally, I'd like to know how the sex was between her and I before we had it, not that it would matter. ;D
Of course, their could have been an accident involving teeth that could be avoided. ;D ;D That would be nice to know up front. ;D
Say what? If it's not convincing, it's probably not true. Therefore, not evidence to start with.
It depends on your standard for what you think is convincing.
What convinces you may or may not convince me. Kinda like you saying ""fuck a graph " when convincing evidence was staring you in the face. It wasn't too convincing to you at the time. It did not make the graphs information any less true. Or the probability of it's truthfullnes less.
It was evidence to begin with. You just wouldn't look at it.
People have had a lot of convincing evidence in courts and convicted inocent people.
fingers — Dec 09, 2008So - She knew all the names and your future and the past history.
Impressive - if I heard that first hand I would be convinced there was something in it.
With a huge sceptical sense that she had cheated.
If that is completely out of the question - you were there on your own and nobody knew you.
and you weren't a local celebrity who met his stalker.
or
the guy that walked out ashen faced - is really thinking - what a vicious bitch get away from it.
Who the fuck was the person who confirmed the story - you didn't know either of them, a stranger confirming a story about a stranger.
Have you ever watched The Sting ?
I've wondered a few times about it. A few of the things mentioned could have been lucky guesses, but she didn't take any of the usual completely wrong guesses that most people forget happened (I should mention that when I went to the conference I thought most of the woo woo stuff was complete BS - I definitely didn't go there hoping to be convinced, in fact I didn't know there WAS going to be any woo woo stuff there!).
The girl that confirmed the story was the co-worker of the guy - they were both working a tech booth and had nothing to do with our convention. They were setting up while we were in the class (and weren't there when it started) so it's less likely that the exchange was from a prior conversation. Besides, why stage such an elaborate setup anyway?
Again, fantastic claims require a fantastic amount of evidence and I've run into several other bizarre things beside those that I've said. Some have even been published in prestigious magazines like the Journal of the American Medical Assocation. One case written about in there had a girl who had just received a heart transplant and started having nightmares. Each one was about a guy who was killing her. To make a long story shorter, she was able to give a very detailed description of person which turned out to be the man convicted of murdering the girl where the heart came from. A woo woo might say it's a case of a "message from the other side" or some such mystical reasoning, but I would contend that it could also be more evidence that memories are stored holographically throughout our entire body. If I can find the exact article I'll try to post at least the extract, but almost everything on their website requires you to pay $15 to read the entire article...
pickmaster60 — Dec 09, 2008Say what? If it's not convincing, it's probably not true. Therefore, not evidence to start with.
It depends on your standard for what you think is convincing.
What convinces you may or may not convince me. Kinda like you saying ""fuck a graph " when convincing evidence was staring you in the face. It wasn't too convincing to you at the time. It did not make the graphs information any less true. Or the probability of it's truthfullnes less.
It was evidence to begin with. You just wouldn't look at it.
People have had a lot of convincing evidence in courts and convicted inocent people.
Not really, obviously. If you actually see something happen and you don't believe it did, it's almost reverse superstition. ;D ;D Or at least, willful ignorance. ;D ;D
Convicted innocent people??? So, that would be a small number percentage wise, right? What is the number, the percent of wrongful convictions? Do you know? What would be considered a lot of evidence in these cases? Do you know? Is that your opinion, or someone elses opinion? Or just a random stupid statement?
Has DNA testing improved the accuracy of conviction in the last 20 years? Are convictions suppose to be without flaw? WOuld you rather not try to punish or put away criminals, remove them from society?