41 posts
So I've been Atheist for some time now. Something my parents have never really gotten over. I thought we'd come to some mutual understandings, however they have proven to me that they are so blinded by their religion that they are incapable of being human.
My wife and I have always been open tot he idea of our kids going to church with their grandparents. The rule was, "Don't indoctrinate, explain shit to these kids." Then my daughter comes home from church thinking she is a vampire and possibly a cannibal. Why? She had her first communion and the grandparents were more worried that they partake than explain ANYTHING about it to them. I should have told them never again then. It seems like every time church or religion is involved in a trip to the grandparents my kids get stuck in an awkward situation and I have to clean up my parents mess.
You're getting the very short version of this story BTW.
fast forward many fucked up situations later and this past week my parents cause my daughter to raise serious questions about their ethics. My kids had since been told that from now on if they want to go to church or not it was purely up to them. NO ONE ELSE! My kids had told me all week they had no desire to go to church with my parents and my nephews. No problem we said. We back you 100%.
My mom calls on Saturday to inform us that they are taking the kids to church. We conference call them so that all parties can be on the line. My kids included. It is discussed and it is made clear that my children do not want to go and as a result will be allowed to stay behind while everyone else goes.
That should be the end of the discussion.
My mother later that night explains to my 11 year old that she and grandpa really want to take her to church. There are all these people that really miss Liv and want to talk to her and see her. Of course my daughter is now stuck in the proverbial rock and hard place. She doesn't want to go but there are people that really want to see her.....at least that's what Granny says. She feels pressured and she agrees to go.
Of course since everyone else is going to church....my youngest has to go because he's to young to stay home by his self.
Granny gets exactly what she wants by design.
Of course they go to church and no one says jack shit to either of my kids. What happened to the welcome wagon promised by my mother?
So now my daughter not only thinks granny is an asshole for pressuring her into going to church and undermining her wishes....now granny is a bold faced LIAR!
My parents didn't even have the balls to tell us they took the kids to church. Even sat and had lunch with the wife when she went to pick them up and never mentioned it.
So I call my parents to see what their take on stuff was, because I'm really bothered at the opinions my daughter has formed about her grandmother (your still getting the short version there is more. Keeping shit simple). Of course all they can do is be defensive and get pissed that I would believe my kids over them. They went as far as to say my wife and I were bad parents leading our kids down the wrong path and that all we did was fill our kids heads with anti-religious propaganda. HELLO we've been letting you assholes take them to church despite your being complete dumb asses every time you take them. They've never witnessed a conversation about religion that I've had with either of my kids. We've been more than gracious with our kids in letting them attend church with my parents.
At this point my kids want nothing to do with religion based more so on my parents handling of this whole situation than anything negative I could have ever told them about religion. Thanks Ma? I guess.
We initially wanted religion to be a thing our kids were free to pick for themselves. AT this point....fuck it all.....we raise them atheist and the world can get fucked.
I've told my kids over the years that religion isn't bad, it's what people do with religion that's bad. I've always told them that it takes religion to make an otherwise good person do bad things. They have no further than my parents to look to see the truth in the statement.
Fucking sad.
Sorry to hear that, but I'm not surprised.
You know the story, or situation, with my ex. The ex told me about 2 months ago that she and this piece of shit have decided that they want to raise the kids, his too, in church. Holy shit.
So, I ask her if she told the preacher what she did, and if she did, what did he say about it? ;D She didn't answer. Then I ask her if she has ever read the Bible. She said no, not the entire thing. I told her to go read about what Goddy pooh says about divorce and adultery. I ask her if she knew what the ten commandments were, she said no, to both questions.
So, apparently, bad people + religion = bad people too. ;D
I hate religion. I hate church and the shit that goes on in it and religion itself. It's all fake.
I told the ex that I could quote her verses in the Bible if she would listen, she didn't want to hear my atheist views, she said. I told her that I wouldn't give her my opinion, just tell her what the Bible says. Still didn't want to hear it.
Funny as hell that people go to church and really don't want to know what the Bible says.
She came to pick up the girls at about 4pm on a Sunday and smelled like a brewery. I ask her if she went to church that morning, she said no. I ask her if she'd been drinking, she said no.
What a fucking idiot.
On a side note, this is pretty funny..... The guy lived in our hood next door to a couple that got caught in the middle of this shit. The piece of shit's house went to foreclosure and the bank just sold the house. So, my ex and this fuck head get drunk and decide to walk down and meet the new owners who were having a little party of some kind. Well the couple next door had already met them and told them everything that happened. They knock on the door, the people answer, see who it is and ask them to leave. ;D ;D I thought that was funny as hell.
That is sad. It's been my experience, too, FB. My mom (devout Roman Catholic) always worries openly about the kids not going to church. I tell her sending kids to church is unfair to the kids because they're exposed to things before they even have the ability to understand them. I've even called it child abuse to my mom (mostly to raise her blood pressure, but I do believe it's a form of it).
So my kids don't go. My semi-religious wife and I agreed that's how we're raising the kids. As for religion, I don't even talk about it the way I talk about it with adults with my 12-year-old, and she still somehow has a great disdain for church and overly-religious people. Seriously it had nothing to do with me! I guess she's just wired like me...
My 9-year-old son, on the other hand, happily prayed with his mommy yesterday for the people hurt in Boston. Then (to my delight) ended his prayer with "Love, Brendan" instead of Amen, because he's been raised apart from religion. I'm fine with people praying, even though I think it's pointless. I do think that people need to do that for themselves sometimes. I know Brendan was helping to make his Mommy feel better, because she grew up in Boston and it really upset her.
Anyway...I feel your pain. Best thing to do is to just be kind and tell her firmly that the kids are not participating in any church activities. If she's shitty about it, well, that's her fucking problem.
And Hook, I would gather evidence of your ex-wife's alcohol-related behavior and her disregard of your wishes regarding how the kids are raised...that stuff might be useful at a custody hearing.
Good luck, fellas!
Tripper(bender)
Tripper — Apr 17, 2013That is sad. It's been my experience, too, FB. My mom (devout Roman Catholic) always worries openly about the kids not going to church. I tell her sending kids to church is unfair to the kids because they're exposed to things before they even have the ability to understand them. I've even called it child abuse to my mom (mostly to raise her blood pressure, but I do believe it's a form of it).
So my kids don't go. My semi-religious wife and I agreed that's how we're raising the kids. As for religion, I don't even talk about it the way I talk about it with adults with my 12-year-old, and she still somehow has a great disdain for church and overly-religious people. Seriously it had nothing to do with me! I guess she's just wired like me...
My 9-year-old son, on the other hand, happily prayed with his mommy yesterday for the people hurt in Boston. Then (to my delight) ended his prayer with "Love, Brendan" instead of Amen, because he's been raised apart from religion. I'm fine with people praying, even though I think it's pointless. I do think that people need to do that for themselves sometimes. I know Brendan was helping to make his Mommy feel better, because she grew up in Boston and it really upset her.
Anyway...I feel your pain. Best thing to do is to just be kind and tell her firmly that the kids are not participating in any church activities. If she's shitty about it, well, that's her fucking problem.
And Hook, I would gather evidence of your ex-wife's alcohol-related behavior and her disregard of your wishes regarding how the kids are raised...that stuff might be useful at a custody hearing.
Good luck, fellas!
Tripper(bender)
yeah I told her that religion is simply off the table. Of course she thinks that it's unfair to the religion. I'm like, "I have to look no further than you to see that religion isn't the way." Of course that's not nice to say but sometimes you have to squarely hit someone with the truth.
My oldest is like, "Daddy, I don't need god to know that I shouldn't tell lies. So why does nanny?"
The kicker was when she asked me why grandma thought she could do what god could not do (ie save her). I was impressed with the question. So we had a serious discussion about grace and how it is understood in the Methodist church. Then my crafty little girl asked, "Why doesn't nanny listen to what her church says then and let god do his job?" Again I was impressed because though I try to explain this stuff to her, I always fear I might take it too far over her head. She always seems to understand though.
She's like, "IF religion will make me like granny, no thanks."
My little man was on the fence for a long time. He really wanted to believe in god and jesus much like he did Santa Claus and such. Mom actually used Santa to prove god was real to a then 4 year old. Now he is so mad about the situation with his sister that even he thinks something is fishy about this religion stuff.
Go grandma....push them right out the church for me!
I think it's so unfair to introduce religion to young children. Religion is so against drinking, smoking, and all that shit, yet it doesn't mind introducing the Bible to kids who shouldn't be reading the thing in the first place. Can you imagine the outrage churches would get if they actually read the entire Bible in church/sunday school? All the killing and gross acts that take place in the Bible? Yet you can't watch Star Wars unless your 13 or older. ;D ;D
Wonder how many Christians their would be if all these people were forced to read the Bible? I bet we would be amazed at how few Christians have actually done that.
Hookbender — Apr 19, 2013I think it's so unfair to introduce religion to young children. Religion is so against drinking, smoking, and all that shit, yet it doesn't mind introducing the Bible to kids who shouldn't be reading the thing in the first place. Can you imagine the outrage churches would get if they actually read the entire Bible in church/sunday school? All the killing and gross acts that take place in the Bible? Yet you can't watch Star Wars unless your 13 or older. ;D ;D
Wonder how many Christians their would be if all these people were forced to read the Bible? I bet we would be amazed at how few Christians have actually done that.
I don't know Hooky. One thing that has rang true is that people that want religion....really want it and can find ways to justify anything in the bible so that they can have their religion. Doesn't even matter if it's something stupid.
Tell them a story from the bible but change all the names so that it's very hard to pick out that it's a bible story. IF you ask them what they think of the leader in the story they always say negative things about the leader. Reveal that it's actually the battle of Jericho and well then it's God's will and we aren't to question God.
Or worse yet they will just cherry pick the shit out of the bible and take away from it only the good things. Due to the elitist attitude and segregational thinking they fail to see you could do the same thing with about any other religion.
I understand why they intro it to kids. It's a way of life. It's a personal philosophy. You want your kids to have the same ideas as yourself. You have to intro them to things at some point.
;D
you guys still trying to convince yourself that there is no God? ;D
DreamTheaterRules — May 09, 2013you guys still trying to convince yourself that there is no God? ;D
No, man created God a long time ago! ;)
DreamTheaterRules — May 09, 2013you guys still trying to convince yourself that there is no God? ;D
Are you still trying to convince yourself that there is a god?
:D
So, the consensus here would be that anyone who is religious, is a bad person. Even if they are a good person, the religion makes them a bad person.
Geez, and I was trying so hard to be a good person, only to have it all go for nothing. And, for it to actually make me a bad person because I tried. :(
DreamTheaterRules — May 15, 2013So, the consensus here would be that anyone who is religious, is a bad person. Even if they are a good person, the religion makes them a bad person.
Geez, and I was trying so hard to be a good person, only to have it all go for nothing. And, for it to actually make me a bad person because I tried. :(
I hope you don't really think that way. If your a good person, your a good person.
My ex took my 3 year old to church 2 weeks ago and she's had nightmares since. For the last 2 weeks.
I think that religion should be treated like beer, cigs, etc. You should only be able to use it if your 21 or older...... when you can understand it. It should be a crime to teach a child to judge others. At 21, let the population choose if religion is bad or good. When your taught that religion is the only way, you have no choice. that isn't American, it reminds me of a dude from Germany.
You would be classified as a survivor in my book. One that is religious, judges people, but is still a cool dude. ;D
You're wrong on one count... I judge nobody! Seriously, you may be joking or typical religion thread banter but I Do Not judge anyone ever. That's way above my pay grade!
so, kids, don't make a judgement about that guy in the van asking you if you'd like some candy and a ride home... you're not allowed to judge.
come on, judgement/bias/prejudice are the evaluating functions that keep us alive.
I suppose you really mean "I judge no one's SOUL".
we have to judge people, every day... but we judge their actions, not their souls.
imo, that's the "pay grade" distinction.
yeah, agreed. I was referring to the way these guys say I or other Christians judge people. I usually state what the Bible says, then they say I'm judging and I say "no I'm just quoting the source" or something like that. I judge actions, not the soul as you correctly stated,
A judge hands down a sentence to those who break the rules. That is above my pay grade. LOL I just react to my judgement of actions.
They ARE referring to type judgement used by the people Matt cites so often who yell "Trust in Christ or you'll spend eternity in hell" on the street corners. That's not how Jesus spread his word, and it's not how I do.
sorry, just a pet peeve of mine... the whole "judge not..." device. didn't mean to put you into an "explain yourself!" position. it came off a little more coarse than I intended.
nah, I knew what you meant, and you are right. I should have explained myself better. I shouldn't say "I don't judge" and then turn right around and say "Hook is a hillbilly and FB is delusional" because clearly that is judging! ;D
DreamTheaterRules — May 16, 2013You're wrong on one count... I judge nobody! Seriously, you may be joking or typical religion thread banter but I Do Not judge anyone ever. That's way above my pay grade!
I was kinda joking. But religion is pretty much a huge judgement game. Let me ask you this.... do you believe that if I don't accept God, I'm going to hell? Most Christians do. I think that is judgement at its best, don't you.
If your religious, how could you not judge? Thats one huge reason I quit going to church when I was religious.
but clarified by, and after, what Sheep said. Yes, I judge things. Example: I think you would be a cool dude to hang out with, play guitar with, and maybe even to give you some fishing lessons. That is a judgement I made. Another example: I see someones name in the paper who was convicted of child molestation and in the plea bargain they admitted it. I don't even know this guy, but I don't want my kids going anywhere near him, and I decide he is a perv. Judgements. But when you ask me "Do you believe if I don't trust in God I'm going to spend eternity in hell" then that's different. I only can recite the judgement that has already been made by the authority on that topic. Just like, if you ask me if driving 75 on the interstate is wrong. I do it all the time, safely, alertly... but the people who make the rules say that is not legal and if a copy pulls me over he will give me a ticket. So my answer would be "no, I don't really think it's bad, but it is wrong and you'll get in trouble for it." But the judgement was made by someone else, not me. So in either case, when you stand in front of the judge and he says "you knew the rules and you broke them" you can't look at me and say I made either judgement.
it's ok to judge behavior, just don't be a hypocrite. if you apply a standard to someone, apply that standard to yourself. DTR's no kind of hypocrite, as far as I can tell.
ironsheep — May 17, 2013it's ok to judge behavior, just don't be a hypocrite. if you apply a standard to someone, apply that standard to yourself. DTR's no kind of hypocrite, as far as I can tell.
I guess I'm wacko tonight. Was that to me? I don't think DTR's a hypocrite. I like DTR. From what I can tell, he's one of the nicer guys here, if not the nicest.
These, to me, are a discussion about a religious belief, or religious thinking, whatever. Nothing personal.
I judged DTR long ago. I think he's a Budweiser drinkin, no baseball playin, giutar string breakin bitch who won't show us pictures of his wife's boobs. ;D ;D ;D
not to you, no - just in general. he's a good guy.
DreamTheaterRules — May 17, 2013but clarified by, and after, what Sheep said. Yes, I judge things. Example: I think you would be a cool dude to hang out with, play guitar with, and maybe even to give you some fishing lessons. That is a judgement I made. Another example: I see someones name in the paper who was convicted of child molestation and in the plea bargain they admitted it. I don't even know this guy, but I don't want my kids going anywhere near him, and I decide he is a perv. Judgements. But when you ask me "Do you believe if I don't trust in God I'm going to spend eternity in hell" then that's different. I only can recite the judgement that has already been made by the authority on that topic. Just like, if you ask me if driving 75 on the interstate is wrong. I do it all the time, safely, alertly... but the people who make the rules say that is not legal and if a copy pulls me over he will give me a ticket. So my answer would be "no, I don't really think it's bad, but it is wrong and you'll get in trouble for it." But the judgement was made by someone else, not me. So in either case, when you stand in front of the judge and he says "you knew the rules and you broke them" you can't look at me and say I made either judgement.
I kinda figured that was coming. Thats the same kind of answer as, you just got to have faith, I can't prove there is a God. But, I get it your argument, or answer.
And, believe it or not, I don't want to argue about that stuff today. :-?
;D ;D
ironsheep — May 17, 2013not to you, no - just in general. he's a good guy.
OK. Sorry. :)
Hook, I know that's the hard part for many. The Bible says that things will be revealed to those who believe. That forms sort of a catch 22 for those who say "I'm not going to believe until you prove it too me." I get that, trust me I do. So, I also understand the "I know what I believe and why, and I have seen and felt things that provide me with "proof" vs. "you can't prove it and you can't prove what you've seen or felt and you can't prove that any of it was God." I get it.
I also understand that it's tough for some people to look at something that says only if you believe will you gain more understanding. And that even says you'll never fully understand until you get to heaven and will be revealed... and them accept it now since they don't have the proof they want BEFORE they accept it. I believe the Bible very specifically says that many people will educate themselves right out of believing. Meaning, I wan't tangible proof, and I don't believe I have it so I'm not believing it.
I also wonder how those people can not look at the many many many items included therein and not see that there is something more to it than some great religious hoax or whatever it is that you guys believe. I wonder why that over 2000 years ago some converted Jews would conspire to tell elaborate stories, make up a God, make up stories about witnessing miracles, etc. etc.... I mean, think about this. There are hundreds of generations of people represented in the stories in the Bible. With no electronic media to spread their "conspiracy," with obviously no contact between these generations, how COULD they possible make up stores that jibe with one part of the story told 1000 or more years before the other, and many people only seeing or living through their one part of the story.... yet 10s of generations later the later part of a story they started is completed.... Prophecy of Jesus birth over 1000 years before he was born... never seen by that generation, and yet many people who saw Jesus only later found out that it had been told 1000 years before that he would come. Thats just an example of many things that were told hundreds or thousands of years before, and then came true.
My point is, I wonder how those who demand proof can look at all those things and ignore them. I didn't meet Jesus in person but I haven't met Sheep or Paul or You (Hook) in person either. When 10s or hundreds of people start telling stories of your existence though, only a fool would later say you never existed or they had no proof. So, if those same people, many of whom had no skin in the deal BEFORE they met him, tell of miracles, and seeing him teach and watching the things he said come true, then why would we ever say "well, I believe there was a Jesus, and he was a teacher and maybe a prophet but he wasn't God's Son and I don't believe what he said about heaven and hell." Just saying, I would urge extreme caution in just writing it all off as fiction. Yet, at what point to you think it's ok to say "I believe this, this and this, out of the Bible, but I don't believe the rest."
There is way to much already proven true things in the Bible to write it off as fiction, fantasy, or religious hoax. But if you agree with that, you better be very careful about picking out the rest and deciding what to believe and what not to believe.
Would you agree with that?
And, if you don't agree that there has to be a basis of truth to the Bible, how else could you explain all the fulfilled prophecy? Do you think that even all that was faked? Example, do you think it was "made up" that someone prophesied years ahead of Christ's birth? or any of the other things? If so, what about those things written back then that have come true since then? And are even still coming true today? How do you explain those things IF it was all a hoax? I'm not grilling you, I'm asking your thought process.
See, I see a lot of disapproval of religion here. I see people slamming the people who are "religious" but not "Christians" in principle and actions. One might be wise to remember that Jesus himself was not fond of "religious people" who didn't live by Gods principles. But that doesn't mean religion is bad, only that those who mis-use it, the "holier than thou's" and so forth... Hey, Jesus didn't like them much either. But I'm pretty sure he was on board with the heaven/ hell / salvation thing, as well as the principles he taught.
Here's the thing. I did believe for 35 plus years. Nothing was revealed, nothing special happened, my prayers were never answered, I was never spoken too, nothing, period. Absolutely nothing at all. And during those 35 years, I was a member of several different Baptist churches and at every single one it was the same shit. Internal arguing about stupid ass shit that did no one any good. People judging each other every damn minute....... I just got sick of it. Half the people would be drunk on Fri and Sat night in bars, getting DUI's and crap, etc then coming to church and treating others like they were below them. Hell yes, I could ignore that crap and get what I could and go home, but what's the point? So, I bailed on churches. I decided I could be better on my on, as a person, than being part of a bunch of drama shit in church. That was step one.
You know what happened here.... that was step 2. And believe me, that was a huge struggle for me personally, away from here.
Now, I'm Agnostic. May be a God, may not be. I have no personal evidence that there is, nor scientific evidence. I just don't know. Problem is, I can't believe on faith alone. I tried, can't do it. I will not fake it. So, according to the bible, I'll be thrown in the lake of fire. On the other hand, my ex who is currently having sex with a guy she broke up a family with, hurt my 2 girls and put them in a bad position, is going to church with her std having boyfriend who's been fired for trying to hook up with a co-worker, and messed around on his wife more than ten times.... and they say Goddy, sorry, and all is forgiven? Holy shit!!!! I'm telling you these things because I just don't believe the bible anymore. I don't think it makes sense. It's to liberal, and to cruel at the same time to make much sense. I can quote stuff out of the bible that screams insanity. I can show awful cruelty, from the bible. I can show acts of kindness, healing, and curses of sickness.
Why is the bible so hard to read and understand? If the masses are to be held responsible for learning about God or Jesus and what they must do from the Bible, if it's so important, why is it damn near impossible to understand without help? Why isn't it plain and clear?
Why, if the Bible is the key to understanding, not heaven, just understanding..... are their so many takes on what the thing says and means. You see, one thing that leads me to be skeptical about the bible is that fact right there. Why are their so many different clubs with different rules and regulations and understandings? People use to think the earth was flat, we now know its round, but their aren't 78 clubs with different opinions of that around is there? No, because the earth being round is true. It's not disputed. There usually isn't 78 different variations of one truth, is my point. That makes me wonder.
I could go on and on, but I'm getting close to having to start putting up articles to prove what I say and I don't want to get into all that. I'll read every word you type but I'm pretty sure I've heard it or read it before.
I'm really just not into it. I can't really discuss it with you without bringing up real flaws that you would eventually end up being mad at me for, so what the point? Maybe not mad but it would be insulting to what you believe and I just don't want to go there.
I've found that I am just not comforted by the messages presented by religion(s).
God new he created a imperfect being. He laid his message out to his creation. The imperfect creation, through experience and massively different views, express a flawed vision for people to follow. Knowing all this, god will still throw you in a lake of fire to suffer forever. He will destroy his creation, his children, murder them, if they choose the wrong path. There is no way his teaching can be perfect if a imperfect creation teaches a flawed, imperfect message. A imperfect creation wrote the bible. Jesus didn't. God didn't. Therefore, can we really know what god Truely wants us to do or be? And do we really even know who wrote the bible?
Why would a perfect being assign a flawed creation to write something so important, life and death important, and when they make a mistake, kill them? That's murder. Period. Not love and understanding and forgiveness. It is murder.
If a professor in college, say in Biology, teaches a college level class to a 5 year old, and they fail a test, and he kills them, is that fair?
Hookbender — May 21, 2013If a professor in college, say in Biology, teaches a college level class to a 5 year old, and they fail a test, and he kills them, is that fair?
Well, they won't fail a test again now will they? :D
On a side note, Sheep and Hook, thanks for the kind remarks. Not used to people being NICE to me in these threads! ;D
I've turned over a new leaf. 8-)
;D ;D ;D
I knew i'd win you over when i sent you that ex-wife voodoo doll!
DreamTheaterRules — May 15, 2013So, the consensus here would be that anyone who is religious, is a bad person. Even if they are a good person, the religion makes them a bad person.
Geez, and I was trying so hard to be a good person, only to have it all go for nothing. And, for it to actually make me a bad person because I tried. :(
Don't put words into my mouth. Religion doesn't MAKE you do anything. The issue is that people think they have a license to be a douche because they hide under the banner of religion. there are lots of good people in this world. Religious and not religious. The big difference is that people that are religious do bad things because they think they are good things to do because of religion.
For example, a religious person that says fags go to hell and are unnatural. I thought you weren't supposed to judge? Gays are part of creation. If you Christians didn't like them so much....the answer is to quit fucking because that's how gay people are made. If not for religion, you might not like the gay lifestyle but you wouldn't treat those people so poorly. For example, being anti-gay marriage. What the fuck do you care if someone gets a tax break like your ass gets? What the fuck do you care if two people love each other so much they want to stay together forever and make it public and legal? How does it hurt YOU the Christian? It's doesn't. But you think you own a patent on marriage and you don't. That is what I mean by taking an otherwise good person and making them do bad things. Religion. It's fucked up.
DreamTheaterRules — May 20, 2013Hook, I know that's the hard part for many. The Bible says that things will be revealed to those who believe. That forms sort of a catch 22 for those who say "I'm not going to believe until you prove it too me." I get that, trust me I do. So, I also understand the "I know what I believe and why, and I have seen and felt things that provide me with "proof" vs. "you can't prove it and you can't prove what you've seen or felt and you can't prove that any of it was God." I get it.
The bible says a lot of things. Much of which is not true. You don't have some special secret revelation. I've been to churches my whole life and was an ardent believer. It's all part of the con. you can easily get caught up in the frenzy of emotions. I get that. I've been there and done it. when people around you get excited it's easy to get into "the spirit". The big secret is that if you get enough people to be like minded enough that you can have a big club the meets every Sunday at least.
I also understand that it's tough for some people to look at something that says only if you believe will you gain more understanding. And that even says you'll never fully understand until you get to heaven and will be revealed... and them accept it now since they don't have the proof they want BEFORE they accept it. I believe the Bible very specifically says that many people will educate themselves right out of believing. Meaning, I wan't tangible proof, and I don't believe I have it so I'm not believing it.
I guess if you're right and there is a god then my first words to him will be, "Don't blame me for the way you made me."
Again though it's all part of the con. You've got a carrot dangling in front of you. All you have to do is die as a Christian and it will all be revealed. What is it exactly that you will have answers to? Think about that for awhile. What is it that you really seek from God in that department. Write those questions down and then go and look at the universe and how things work within it. then ask yourself if what you are waiting for from god is at all that special.
I also wonder how those people can not look at the many many many items included therein and not see that there is something more to it than some great religious hoax or whatever it is that you guys believe. I wonder why that over 2000 years ago some converted Jews would conspire to tell elaborate stories, make up a God, make up stories about witnessing miracles, etc. etc.... I mean, think about this. There are hundreds of generations of people represented in the stories in the Bible. With no electronic media to spread their "conspiracy," with obviously no contact between these generations, how COULD they possible make up stores that jibe with one part of the story told 1000 or more years before the other, and many people only seeing or living through their one part of the story.... yet 10s of generations later the later part of a story they started is completed.... Prophecy of Jesus birth over 1000 years before he was born... never seen by that generation, and yet many people who saw Jesus only later found out that it had been told 1000 years before that he would come. Thats just an example of many things that were told hundreds or thousands of years before, and then came true.
More of the con. See what you get from your limited perspective is that the prophecy of jesus is real and special. Here is what you don't know from your Christian perspective. Jesus doesn't fulfill the prophesies.
Shit Jesus DIDN'T Do that Prophesy Said He WOULD Do According to the BibleBuild the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
Just so we are crystal clear....these weren't things to come at a second coming after a Resurrection. Those were things to happen WHEN the Messiah came. It's the reason many Jews don't believe.
Now from a historical perspective it;s also really easy to ascertain why people would LEAVE the Jewish tradition and start a new one. All those years wandering in the desert, in and out of slavery, conquered over and over by invading armies, and then to top it all off the Jews got REALLY legalistic with the laws. A knee jerk reaction is to get rid of the rules and get back to basics. People longed for a Messiah because their god wasn't really cutting it anyway.
You speak of the bible like it is a complete work. It's really fucked up. If you read it. REALLY read it. And study it, you will find that much of it is poorly pieced together. Why because you have all these people talking about Jesus and God like they know some shit. But when you see what they all say what you find is that they don't know anything. They often disagree with each other. There is no harmony in the bible and what god is or whom he is and what JEsus is or isn't.
What is shocking to me is how so many Christian upon hearing a real truth about things in their bible will absolutely not hear it. "there must be an explaination" they cry. To which the church came up with a whole line of study called Apologetics, where by the church TRIES (and rather poorly at times) to explain all these messed up things in the bible.
My point is, I wonder how those who demand proof can look at all those things and ignore them. I didn't meet Jesus in person but I haven't met Sheep or Paul or You (Hook) in person either. When 10s or hundreds of people start telling stories of your existence though, only a fool would later say you never existed or they had no proof. So, if those same people, many of whom had no skin in the deal BEFORE they met him, tell of miracles, and seeing him teach and watching the things he said come true, then why would we ever say "well, I believe there was a Jesus, and he was a teacher and maybe a prophet but he wasn't God's Son and I don't believe what he said about heaven and hell." Just saying, I would urge extreme caution in just writing it all off as fiction. Yet, at what point to you think it's ok to say "I believe this, this and this, out of the Bible, but I don't believe the rest."
Howie there are tons of things in the Bible that people should believe. But the same can be said about countless other religious books that teach good things. There probably was some guy named Jesus and he probably fancied himself as a preacher man. But historically, he's not mentioned. The church actually had to forge parts of the bible. They had to add a whole chapter to Mark because originally Mark didn't even discuss the resurrection, arguably the most important event in Christindome. NONE of the four gospels agree on much other than there was some guy named Jesus. Historically, Christians even had to forge historical documents....like the works of Josephus, to justify a belief in God and Jesus. When your church is actively forging the story, what does that say about the truth of the story? And the church fathers KNOW that shit is going on. Now that I've told you that....what will you do? Stick your head in the sand or investigate?
There is way to much already proven true things in the Bible to write it off as fiction, fantasy, or religious hoax. But if you agree with that, you better be very careful about picking out the rest and deciding what to believe and what not to believe.
Would you agree with that?
And, if you don't agree that there has to be a basis of truth to the Bible, how else could you explain all the fulfilled prophecy? Do you think that even all that was faked? Example, do you think it was "made up" that someone prophesied years ahead of Christ's birth? or any of the other things? If so, what about those things written back then that have come true since then? And are even still coming true today? How do you explain those things IF it was all a hoax? I'm not grilling you, I'm asking your thought process.
See, I see a lot of disapproval of religion here. I see people slamming the people who are "religious" but not "Christians" in principle and actions. One might be wise to remember that Jesus himself was not fond of "religious people" who didn't live by Gods principles. But that doesn't mean religion is bad, only that those who mis-use it, the "holier than thou's" and so forth... Hey, Jesus didn't like them much either. But I'm pretty sure he was on board with the heaven/ hell / salvation thing, as well as the principles he taught.
When the setting of your fiction piece is in historical places that really exist, it is hard for those that want to believe, that the story is fiction. Maybe that's why they won't let people up on the mountain where Noah's ark is at. Wouldn't want you believers to find out that it ain't there!
And for the most part, like I mentioned earlier, we really don't know exactly who wrote the book. And, some of the authors used scribe's, and didn't actually pen the writings themselves. And stories back then were passed on by word of mouth. Can you imagine how blown out of proportion shit became after a hundred years of story telling by very ignorant people? How can people claim that God inspired the writings when we don't even know for sure who wrote the Bible?
To many things in the Bible are messed up to be taken as seriously as people do. It's a shame people can't just be good people without religion. It's pretty sad that society needs this type club to keep people in check, so to speak.
