The Watering Hole

Well I must say I've had what would be the closest thing to a homosexual coming out of the closet now.

My brother ratted out my Atheism to my parents.  They have known for a bit, but didn't want to address the situation.  Instead, I got this influx of religious books they were recommending to me to read, without any other instruction than it was a good book to read.  So I was wrapping up a debate at another site when my mom calls.  She asks what I was doing and I told and she was like, "What are you debating?  GOD?!?!?!"

I was like, "Mom are you sure you want to have this discussion?"

She's like, "What are you telling these people?"

I'm like, "Mom I have no faith in any religion.  I find it silly and have spent a great deal of time pouring through books, learning some Hebrew and Greek along the way and studying the history of other religions and culture and find that the whoel thing is really unbelievably silly."

To which she retorted, "You can't believe what man writes, man messes everything up."

the which I replied, "Didn't a bunch of MEN write your book?  If you spent some time READING it instead of being told what to believe by MEN...you might see the contradictions and fatal flaws of your own religion."

To which she said, "I'm not going to debate this with you.  I haven't read as much as you have."

I said, "Well I'm looking to debate you either.  I would just hope that if you believe in anything you ought to at least KNOW what you are believing in and more than just a surface level of understanding."

She's pretty pissed....as is my father about the whole thing.  

But I have to tell you....it's nice to have cleared the air a bit and not have to feel like I have to hide who I am.  

Thought I'd share that with you monkeys.

It IS kind of weird when you finally have that conversation.  I didn't have mine with my Mom until after she was living up here (and my father had already passed - he would DEFINITELY not have understood).  At first I think she had the usual reaction "Oh no, my son won't be going to Heaven with me!!!" but she's let me think what I want since.  Sometimes I think she starts to get it, and she has watched some of the shows on TV that tell where some of the stuff comes from - like the history of Christmas, but she still watches the Hour of Power every Sunday since she doesn't have a car to drive to a church.

I'm really wondering what the rest of the extended family (almost all die-hard, over-the-top Christians - we're talking choir-singers, deacons, elders and pastor-wannabees) would think though...

I'm not too worried about the rest of my family.  They got enough problems that my loss of religion won't be a blip on their radar.  My biggest concern is my Grandmother.  Super devout.  Good lady, but she's all about keeping up appearances.  Ya know?  She won't take it well at all.  

But the way I look at it is this....I'm the same person.  I just don't believe in God.  THat doesn't make me a bad person.  That just makes me different on one point of view in life.  

my wife though is worried about how it will affect me professionally since I work in the Bible belt is this one of those things that can end careers ya know.

I have gotten to a point where I am comfortable in my skin on this subject and I'm not about to hide who I am to anyone.  I shouldn't have to live my life in fear of persecution from religious zealots.  This is America.....I'm free to believe what I want on the subject!  So fuck'em.  It's not like I teach this shit in school.  I never would.  But I certainly think I have a right to be me.  I'm not hurting anyone.  

Unfortunately in the real world.....I know I will have some assholes that want to make my life hard because I don't believe in their fictitious God.  Oh well you can't please them all and when THEY act like an ass about it....they have to answer to their God! HAHAHA

How serious could the  potential for fallout in the community get ?
Especially with you being a teacher, as  it makes you particularly vulnerable.
Maybe discretion is the best part of valour on this,

Religious fundies are vicious bastards when it comes to organising a collective punishment for what they will see as an apostate teaching their kids.
They will do it in a way that is oh so superficially holy.
Experts at the passive aggressive style of attack.

Could affect the family as well.

You could win out in the end, but do you want to fight a battle like that.

fingers — Jan 28, 2009How serious could the  potential for fallout in the community get ?
Especially with you being a teacher, as  it makes you particularly vulnerable.
Maybe discretion is the best part of valour on this,

Religious fundies are vicious bastards when it comes to organising a collective punishment for what they will see as an apostate teaching their kids.
They will do it in a way that is oh so superficially holy.
Experts at the passive aggressive style of attack.

Could affect the family as well.

You could win out in the end, but do you want to fight a battle like that.

Well I went through it a bit when I first started teaching.  At the time I didn't put a CHristmas tree up in the room and was very much a Methodist.  But no tree to the community meant I must be an Atheist (they were right I just didn't know it at the time).  FOr the next two years I was a high topic of conversation with in the community.  Turns out the main culprit was a person whose kid I had never had in class till THIS year.  They didn't even know me.  

It has potential to cause some issues for me....I'm just glad I don't live in that county.  

I will never tell my parents im atheist. they have known for 20 years that I dont attend church but if they knew i was atheist they would shit!! I figure its best not to tell them because it would upset them. I will remain a closet atheist to them.

I haven't told my Dad or Mom yet, and probably won't. My sister has all kinds of problems....I don't need to add to the mix.

My Dad ask me when me and the wife are going to get my 2 year old involved in church everytime I see him. I just say next week, everytime he ask. ;D

Funny how people, like my Dad, who use to be a big Vodka drinker and played golf every Sunday morning and drank beer as he did, get older and decide to go to church and therefore everyone else should to. Kinda sick, really. He wasn't going to church at my age. He never went to church with me and Mom during my early childhood either. Now I should go. Now God is the answer for every problem that comes up.  And, as with my sister and her problems, God doesn't do shit and she gets worse. But God is the answer, right? Whatever makes you feel better....that's what I'm thinking.

My parents would freak if they knew my true thoughts on religion.

I guess I could always tell them I'm going to see Brother Tripper and discuss the matter tonight.  ;D

I sure hope I can keep my daughter out of church at her age. I told my wife she didn't need to be fed any religious shit until she's 18. ;D I simply refuse to go to church. I won't go near the place, not for my wife or daughter. I just can't tollerate the shit anymore.

Half the fuckers have hangovers on Sunday morning anyway. There in bad moods to start with. ;D

Hookbender — Jan 28, 2009 My parents would freak if they knew my true thoughts on religion.

Send me money or I'll tell 'em!  :D ;D

I don't have any money. I spent it on a laptop and just gave the rest away so others could spend to fix the economy. (sorry assman)

;D ;D ;D

My mom is incapable of understanding it. My one religious brother teases me about it (because he's so sure his ticket is written), my other brothers are an agnostic who likes Buddhist philosophy (but doesn't care about religion and thinks it's silly) and the other is a practicing Catholic who doesn't judge (what a concept).

My dad was the first person I ever met who said religion was a fantasy world, though he's relented a little as he's gotten older.

Here's the scene:

1991, Bakersfield California. My mom is trying to get us to go to church. I don't want to go.

Me (whining): Dad, why don't you go to church with us?

My dad (a little peeved and tired of the whining): Because it's a fuckin' dream world. My only God is the almighty dollar.

My dad's hardcore. :) It was one of the first times I ever heard him say fuck, too.

I was still a faithful little Catholic boy for another 10 years or so after that, though once the faith started to fade, it went downhill pretty fast.

He's okay with my beliefs. My mom's totally weird about it. She hates that my son hasn't been baptized. She hates that my daughter's only ever been to church on special occasions.

I hate when people push their religion on their kids and don't let them make their own choice about it.

Even if I believed, I would leave it up to my kids to determine what they believe. Will I be disappointed if my daughter becomes a Jeebus freak? Yes...but I won't treat her differently or hold it against her - she won't even know I'm disappointed. That's the big difference between those who love and those who claim to know love (but really don't).

Tripper

Good points Tripper.  My parents are the type of Christians that were raised that way so it IS their reality.  My poor Dad was driving hte car when my mom and I were talking on the phone and he's screaming shit like, "Even the fuckin' Muslims believe in Jesus, whatya think about that!"

I laughed my ass off and was like, "Tell Dad to eat shit, the Muslims only think Jesus was a good prophet and teacher but certainly NOT the son of God....or the Messiah."  I love'em.....but man.....they don't know shit about religion.

OF course my Mom has several preist's that she thinks I need to talk to.  And ever since that day I can't get either of them on the phone.  MAYBE it's the shitty winter storms we've been having and I just can't get through....we spent a day with no cell phones here....or maybe they have just said FUCK YOU MATT.....how fitting!  

I would be bummed if my kids found religion....but you know....as long as they have their hearts in the right place and don't act like fucking asshole zealots....whatever.  I can't make all their decisions for them and I don't want to.  All I can say is that if my kids come home with that Jesus shit.....I 'm gonna spread some of my enlightened ideas to them...and they can tell me to fuck off or they can get a clue.  Doesn't matter.  Their mine.  I love'em regardless.

(Dammit!  Everytime I read one of FB's posts I can't help but start humming that damn Chicken song with his lyrics!!! )

;D

Classic ain't it?  It's the latest crazy with elementary aged kids.  MWHAHAHAHA

You know, this thread really has taken a more interesting turn. How do you handle your children, concerning religion? Would it be just as bad as the religious to keep them away from religion as the religious brainwashing in a church at a young age?

And Trip....why would you have a feeling of disappointment if your child were religious? Why have any feeling one way or the other? We can't control every aspect of our children. If your child were in jail for something, yeah, be disappointed.

And what if your very young child ask you about God? Would you treat the thought as you would Santa Claus? I've got a 3 year old, actually 2.5 ;D, I'm gonna have to face this soon. Especially since I live in the Bible belt.

Hookbender — Jan 30, 2009You know, this thread really has taken a more interesting turn. How do you handle your children, concerning religion? Would it be just as bad as the religious to keep them away from religion as the religious brainwashing in a church at a young age?

No. Because putting impressionable children in a religious environment, where people claim their beliefs are the truth is a lot different from just letting a kid grow up and learn how to learn, how to think, and make decisions on their own based on sound critical thinking.

And Trip....why would you have a feeling of disappointment if your child were religious? Why have any feeling one way or the other? We can't control every aspect of our children. If your child were in jail for something, yeah, be disappointed.

I'd just be disappointed if they became a zealot. I thought I made that clear.

And what if your very young child ask you about God? Would you treat the thought as you would Santa Claus? I've got a 3 year old, actually 2.5 ;D, I'm gonna have to face this soon. Especially since I live in the Bible belt.

We've just outlined the major religions, and said "some people" believe in God, and some don't. Most of the descriptions of God I've given my kid (because she's a smart cookie and asks tons of questions) are not that of the personal sort, but rather the concept that God is the mechanisms of the universe - how everything works. But I've also explained in detail how Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists believe, and even had her reading a comparative religion book (there is one that's age-appropriate). So far she likes Buddhism the best.

As of now, she's satisfied with what she's heard so far, and has no desire to go to church. I ask her if she's interested from time to time, hoping that she'll say no, and so far, I'm batting 1.000. We'll see if it continues...but I'm not going to push her either way. I teach her how to think logically - critically - and let her think her own way through stuff. I want her to make her own decision about it when she's ready.

I think that's the most fair thing a parent can do. My kid is very happy, very secure, very kind and moral, and treats others with great respect...and it's had nothing to do with religion.

She's a living embodiment of secular goodness...but I'm biased, because I'm her dad.
Tripper

Hookbender — Jan 30, 2009 Would you treat the thought as you would Santa Claus?  

You say that as if Santa doesn't exist...

;)

Well, the world is a sort of religious enviroment, right? I mean, religion isn't just personal, it's public.

Hookbender — Jan 30, 2009You know, this thread really has taken a more interesting turn. How do you handle your children, concerning religion? Would it be just as bad as the religious to keep them away from religion as the religious brainwashing in a church at a young age?

Hooky that's a great question.  I'll tell you my point of view.  

My wife has always been agnostic.  I of course was a Methodist when we meet and for the majority of our relationship.  What we had always agreed on was to allow our children to be exposed to different cultures, religions, and ideas.  The idea is that instead of teaching them about one...or not teaching them about any....is to let them see what's out there and make an educated answer for themselves.

So for us it's not a big deal if my kids come home and say, "Dad I've converted to Hindu"  As long as they have their reasons and those reasons harm no one....we are cool with it.

We don't think religion makes a person bad and we acknowledge that for some people religion can be a good thing.

My daughter as asked us about God.  She's been exposed to that line of thought mainly through my parents, whom when she visits them often goes to church with them.

She's kinda in limbo at the moment....as granny and grampy see it one way, momma sees it another way, and daddy has flip flopped on the issue and sees it differently than every one else she knows.  

But fuck she's 7......so it's not like she has to make her mind up now.  Though I can tell you God is not something ever on her mind.

There was a time not so long ago when she became obsessed with death.  She simply didn't like the idea of dying.  She'd lose everything she loved....a typical human reaction....that I think is the basis for the justification of people needing a religion to begin with.  At that time I was already in an agnostic frame of mind....so my answer was simple.....you die....the worms eat you....the worms shit you out....you help the flowers grow.  She liked that idea a lot....she's a chick...she likes flowers!  

So for now, that's what I got for her.

Fenderbender — Jan 30, 2009

There was a time not so long ago when she became obsessed with death.  She simply didn't like the idea of dying.  She'd lose everything she loved....a typical human reaction....that I think is the basis for the justification of people needing a religion to begin with.  At that time I was already in an agnostic frame of mind....so my answer was simple.....you die....the worms eat you....the worms shit you out....you help the flowers grow.  She liked that idea a lot....she's a chick...she likes flowers!  

So for now, that's what I got for her.

I dunno, she might be thinking "man,  death still freaks me out, but shit,  not as much as daddy's explanation of it, not asking him about it again."
:D

That cracked me up to! ;D ;D ;D

FB

Religion may not make a person bad, but I think the argument could be made that the possibility of religion influencing the majoriety of the religious in a negative way, could be pretty strong. The restrictive aspect of religion is horrible. Kinda depends on your view og "bad". I don't feel trying to control the flocks thoughts are anything but bad. And if all the religious were to actually read the bible, the murder rate may go way up. ;D

I'm not sure that religion doesn't make a person bad morrally, to a degree. A small degree at least.

Hookbender — Jan 31, 2009FB

Religion may not make a person bad, but I think the argument could be made that the possibility of religion influencing the majoriety of the religious in a negative way, could be pretty strong. The restrictive aspect of religion is horrible. Kinda depends on your view og "bad". I don't feel trying to control the flocks thoughts are anything but bad. And if all the religious were to actually read the bible, the murder rate may go way up. ;D

I'm not sure that religion doesn't make a person bad morrally, to a degree. A small degree at least.

Well like any religion it's adapt or die.  So it's been change and it's grown so that it ain't like it used to be.

For fucks sakes every knows that the Jews were horrible fuckers and that was the whole point of inventing a God figure to scare the shit to of them so they'd fly right.  You can't argue with an invisible being that can send you to hell!  That worked till people started having thoughts about what was written and you get assholes like you and me going, "But what about THIS?"  And then it all starts to crumble into what it really is.

Religion itself isn't a bad thing and it isn't meant to be a bad thing.  It's what the people do with the religion that makes it bad.  Taking advantage of old ladies retirement funds to buy a preacher a Bentley is atrocious.  Faith helping and exorcism are really therapy sessions for the weak minded.  There are certainly some fucked up aspects of religion.....but at the heart it's not meant to be fucked up.  At least I can agree with that anyway.  

fingers — Jan 30, 2009[quote author=Fenderbender link=1233164073/0#17 date=1233294654]

There was a time not so long ago when she became obsessed with death.  She simply didn't like the idea of dying.  She'd lose everything she loved....a typical human reaction....that I think is the basis for the justification of people needing a religion to begin with.  At that time I was already in an agnostic frame of mind....so my answer was simple.....you die....the worms eat you....the worms shit you out....you help the flowers grow.  She liked that idea a lot....she's a chick...she likes flowers!  

So for now, that's what I got for her.

I dunno, she might be thinking "man,  death still freaks me out, but shit,  not as much as daddy's explanation of it, not asking him about it again."
:D



HAHAHAHA yeah well it worked out really well for because at the time .....1st grade I think.....they were talking about life cycles in science....different stages of life....ie plants, certain bugs, frogs.....shit like that.  So the idea of something changing from one thing to another was a concrete thought for her.  She wasn't too wild about being worm poop.....so I had to had the fertilizer part....which she got because she helped me put in the flower beds that year when we got the house. ;D