The Watering Hole

OK. Going through a bad spell with divorce. Been still looking at religion, for the last 5 years or more. I am starting to lean the other way.

I've been listening to a preacher man that use to be catholic and is now a non-dimensial (sp) church. Blah blah blah.

After all the debate we've had, I had a change of mind. Here's why....

Religion is based on faith. So the non-believer can easily shred that argument real quick. Add superstition because you believe in something that science hasn't proven exist....pretty much a done deal. But, not so fast.

Faith and superstition are present in your everyday life. You buy a car, and have faith it will get you from point A to point B. You have faith that you'll not die tomorrow, but shit happens. Atheist and Christians die everyday and probably thought the same. All kinds of faith exist in something and something is there, something answers the call most of the time, but sometimes doesn't. Its not doing what we think it's suppose to do, we see it, but it's useless. It won't start.

Atheist dissect the bible with a great argument as long as it's one subject at a time. Marriage, drinking, etc. But the Bible is a group of books by different authors designed to improve one's life through faith and accountability for one's actions. Humans don't like accountability. Much easier to do what they want without any consequences.  

So the Bible gives some basic rules and accountability in a few basic avenues of life. Whether or not the stories are are true really doesn't matter. If thats what your worried about then you miss the teaching. And, you take that one thing and discredit the entire teaching of the Bible.

But when you put all the teaching of the Bible into a bucket and see the entire mass of really great teachings as one, thats when I say..... there's more to this. I see it now. You have to take the who thing into account to get the meaning. Not a little piece here and there.

Now, lets take a bad marriage in consideration. You can go to counseling and if you don't want to here what the guy has to say, or you don't like it or agree with it, you walk away. You never think of that asshole ever again and have no remorse at all. However, if your religious and you get counseling from the preacher or whoever, and you say fuck it and walk out, then you have to face the church again after. And the what would god think. Plus, your likely to work on the marriage harder than if you weren't religious, and a church goer. My opinion here, not based on facts just thinking.

Similar things could be said about teachings about drinking and the man and woman's role in marriage. A woman has certain responsibilities in a marriage just as a man does. Cutting grass and cooking, for example. Look at all the shit women have to go through in the Bible. If you take that to extreme, well, that crazy. But if you take that as emphasis it makes more since. It just means it's damn important. And I agree in most cases. With the premise and urgency of most subjects. It would be a nicer place in which we live.

Society has a need for law. Not a religious one, but just a need. A need for rules and regulations. I think thats what's partly the message of the Bible.

If you read the Bible literally and take it literally, you'll miss out on a really good message, imo.

And Faith Hill is a hot piece of ass so it's good to have Faith once in a while...  ;)

Hookbender — Mar 04, 2012OK. Going through a bad spell with divorce. Been still looking at religion, for the last 5 years or more. I am starting to lean the other way.

I've been listening to a preacher man that use to be catholic and is now a non-dimensial (sp) church. Blah blah blah.

Yay! Non-denominational Christian Churches - mainline fundamentalist Protestantism disguised as "true Christianity". :)

After all the debate we've had, I had a change of mind. Here's why....

Religion is based on faith. So the non-believer can easily shred that argument real quick. Add superstition because you believe in something that science hasn't proven exist....pretty much a done deal. But, not so fast.

Here we go... :)

Faith and superstition are present in your everyday life.

For me, faith is present, but not religious faith, and I don't believe in superstition in any way except for comedic purposes. But go on...

You buy a car, and have faith it will get you from point A to point B. You have faith that you'll not die tomorrow, but shit happens. Atheist and Christians die everyday and probably thought the same. All kinds of faith exist in something and something is there, something answers the call most of the time, but sometimes doesn't. Its not doing what we think it's suppose to do, we see it, but it's useless. It won't start.

You think faith in imaginary things is the same thing as "maybe my car won't work"? They're not at all the same thing. It's LIKELY your car will work unless it's a piece of shit or too old or you don't take care of it. But there's always the possibility it won't. These are all based on tangible reality - what kind of car it is, how well you take care of it, how old it is, etc. Religious faith hinges on NOTHING natural. Simply the belief that something is. Basically, you can quanitfy the likelihood your car will start, but there's no quantifying something supernatural. I have "faith" that people will behave the way that EVIDENCE/EXPERIENCE has shown me they will. Since they are free to do whatever, there's always the distinct possibility they won't, but learning the patterns of human behavior makes it pretty likely they'll do what you expect. That's a different kind of faith than the sky fairy kind. I do operate on the HOPE that things will go well, but that's just optimism, not faith or superstition.

Atheist dissect the bible with a great argument as long as it's one subject at a time. Marriage, drinking, etc. But the Bible is a group of books by different authors designed to improve one's life through faith and accountability for one's actions. Humans don't like accountability. Much easier to do what they want without any consequences.

That is not the motivation for most Atheists' dissection of the Bible.

So the Bible gives some basic rules and accountability in a few basic avenues of life. Whether or not the stories are are true really doesn't matter. If thats what your worried about then you miss the teaching. And, you take that one thing and discredit the entire teaching of the Bible.

The Bible discredits itself by how inconsistent its stories are, the questionable history of how the books were collected, the way most of its parables existed thousands of years in other belief structures before it came together, and its repeatedly sketchy translations. One doesn't need to go story by story to take it apart, even though it is an entertaining exercise.

But when you put all the teaching of the Bible into a bucket and see the entire mass of really great teachings as one, thats when I say..... there's more to this. I see it now. You have to take the who thing into account to get the meaning. Not a little piece here and there.

Here's something to live by: "Be just, and good." That's all you need to know, if we're boiling things down. Treat people fairly, and behave yourself.

Now, lets take a bad marriage in consideration. You can go to counseling and if you don't want to here what the guy has to say, or you don't like it or agree with it, you walk away. You never think of that asshole ever again and have no remorse at all. However, if your religious and you get counseling from the preacher or whoever, and you say fuck it and walk out, then you have to face the church again after. And the what would god think. Plus, your likely to work on the marriage harder than if you weren't religious, and a church goer. My opinion here, not based on facts just thinking.

How much do you care about making the marriage work? That really is the only important thing. It's about YOU and YOUR WIFE. You can suffer through just about anything if you think that divorce isn't what you want. If you still wanted to be with your wife, you'd find a way through whatever happened...especially if she still wants to be with you. If not, let it go. "God" has no bearing on this, and really only clouds things up...if you stay in a marriage due to religious beliefs, that's not a good reason. You should WANT to work on the marriage because you WANT it to continue. I was raised Catholic and I've never been a fan of the very concept of divorce. However, if the relationship simply isn't working, and one or both parties decide they don't want to make it work, it's the best thing that can happen to them.

Similar things could be said about teachings about drinking and the man and woman's role in marriage. A woman has certain responsibilities in a marriage just as a man does. Cutting grass and cooking, for example. Look at all the shit women have to go through in the Bible. If you take that to extreme, well, that crazy. But if you take that as emphasis it makes more since. It just means it's damn important. And I agree in most cases. With the premise and urgency of most subjects. It would be a nicer place in which we live.

Yes, submissive female behavior would make the world a lot easier for men to control it. That's what the Bible prescribes! Why would you endorse it?

Society has a need for law. Not a religious one, but just a need. A need for rules and regulations. I think thats what's partly the message of the Bible.

The Bible is religious law. The different Bible-believing sects have come up with their own ways of interpreting it, throwing out things they don't like and emphasizing others, but at its core it is a book of rules and regulations on how to behave. Atheists and other non-religious people don't need Biblical rules to figure out what's right and wrong. Morality exists SEPARATE from religious faith.

If you read the Bible literally and take it literally, you'll miss out on a really good message, imo.

This is pretty much the only thing I agree with, but only kind of. And check on that non-denominational church - 98% of those are literalist churches. Some are just the "make you feel good about yourself" type (like Joel O'Steen), but they're charlatans who just want you to make them richer.



ALL THAT SAID...if you feel you need it to get you through this, by all means use it. Even though we're just internet friends, I do care about you and want you to be happy. I just hope that whatever happens with your situation it ends up being as easy to take as possible. Good luck with whatever tools you use and make sense to you. Take care, man! :)

Tripper

CraigBert — Mar 04, 2012And Faith Hill is a hot piece of ass so it's good to have Faith once in a while...  ;)

This x100%

Hookbender — Mar 04, 2012.

Faith and superstition are present in your everyday life. You buy a car, and have faith it will get you from point A to point B. You have faith that you'll not die tomorrow, but shit happens.

Yo, that shit is science, bro, not faith.

If you read the Bible literally and take it literally, you'll miss out on a really good message, imo.

I don't think anyone missed out on the really good message of Christianity (I'm assuming you mean that, and not Judaism).  The message of Christianity, as I read it, is "love one another, and take care of one another".  And the people who missed the message of Christianity the most in this mostly Christian country, are actually people who consider themselves devout Christians.

Be that as it may, I find it truly bizarre that you think you are talking about "religion" but really, you are really talking about one fairly small and limited religion, Christianity.  You talk about society having a need for law, as if the Christians are the only ones who ever thought of this, or wrote them up.  There was religion long before Christianity, and there will be religion long after.  Ever read any other holy books?  

Most of the world doesn't take or even consider the Bible, when they think of faith.

Trip

First, thanks very much for the kind wishes. I really appreciate that.

I think it's mostly the horrible time I'm going through. I'm just searching for some relief. And, like you said, if this helps, I'll take it.

I understand your points, of course. And Religion preys on people in times like these... the bad times I'm having right now. For some reason, I feel the need to use this to try to be a better person. Although, I think I am a really good person....just how I feel right now. Along with feeling horrible and scared to death about the effect of this on my girls.

But I'm not ever looking to be a holy roller or anything. It's more spiritual than religious for me. I just realized that I haven't ever thought that maybe, all the crazy shit in the Bible is just exaggerated to make a point of the importance of the teaching.

I don't have any control wishes. I just think that maybe its teaching about women and men and their responsibilities would be a good guide to live by. I don't think women should be controlled, or men. Its just a good guide to live by and I can see where men would benefit as well as women. Not for control purposes, just to improve marriages, which I mistakenly left out earlier. With a 50% plus divorce rate, why not consider it a tool to try to improve marriages? I guess religious people get divorced as well though, so that may shit on my argument or point. ;D

Anyway, I'm sure it's the shitty hand I've been dealt that sparked all this. But this guy definitely isn't taking the bible literally. I'll do some research on him and get his name for you.

Thanks again for the kind words and I consider you a friend as well, always have. You've taught me a lot!!!

Yes, I am talking about Christianity. And it seems much of the world doesn't recognize law either when they decide to steal, but that doesn't mean it isn't needed. I don't really look at the Bible as law anymore but more of a guide. Makes more sense to me that way. I'm not saying thats right, it's just my take on it right now. Anytime you entertain something like this it's a little bizarre, I'll give you that.

Hook let me water it down for ya.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that you can't find in other religions.  There is NOTHING in the bible that you would think is correct thinking that you can't derive out of common sense.

I understand you are going through a rough patch right now, but that doesn't for a second mean you need to avoid responsibility and take ownership of the situation rather than differing to some imaginary being that even IF he was real seems to obviously not give two shits in the first place.

BTW....Atheists can deal with disecting the bible far beyond one story at a time.  IF you have ever bothered to read any of my points on religion....you'd know that most of what I currently know that proves religion is bollocks was learned at the feet of religion and not other atheists.  Though I will admit that Atheists got the ball rolling for me.

I'm reading an excellent book right now about the how most of what you think you know about Peter, Paul and Mary is rubbish and it's written by one of the leading CHRISTIAN authorities on the planet right now.  Dude teaches at a seminary and has written several books dealing wtih the huge problems the bible creates.

Fenderbender — Mar 08, 2012Hook let me water it down for ya.

I'm reading an excellent book right now about the how most of what you think you know about Peter, Paul and Mary is rubbish...

Wow, and the 25th Anniversary of Peter, Paul & Mary was just on TV last night!  ;)

------------------------------------------

No change in my point of view here.  Religion is a man-made construct designed to control the masses.  It only uses aspects of spirituality and common sense (like helping others) to sell itself.  Your beliefs do not require any "institutions."  :)

This was a fascinating Fresh Air yesterday...

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/07/148125942/the-book-of-revelation-visions-prophecy-politics

All about the book of Revelation, which is the strangest piece of fiction I've ever seen.

charger — Mar 08, 2012This was a fascinating Fresh Air yesterday...

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/07/148125942/the-book-of-revelation-visions-prophecy-politics

All about the book of Revelation, which is the strangest piece of fiction I've ever seen.

More so than Genesis?

Fenderbender — Mar 08, 2012Hook let me water it down for ya.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that you can't find in other religions.  There is NOTHING in the bible that you would think is correct thinking that you can't derive out of common sense.

I understand you are going through a rough patch right now, but that doesn't for a second mean you need to avoid responsibility and take ownership of the situation rather than differing to some imaginary being that even IF he was real seems to obviously not give two shits in the first place.

BTW....Atheists can deal with disecting the bible far beyond one story at a time.  IF you have ever bothered to read any of my points on religion....you'd know that most of what I currently know that proves religion is bollocks was learned at the feet of religion and not other atheists.  Though I will admit that Atheists got the ball rolling for me.

I'm reading an excellent book right now about the how most of what you think you know about Peter, Paul and Mary is rubbish and it's written by one of the leading CHRISTIAN authorities on the planet right now.  Dude teaches at a seminary and has written several books dealing wtih the huge problems the bible creates.

If all the Religious books are the same teaching, why do we have so many?

How would I be "avoiding responsibility" of anything? Whether I'm religious or not, I have to live it. It doesn't just go away because I'm religious. No one's gonna live it for me. I don't get that.

Look, I ain't losin my mind here. But I am interested. Right now it's entertainment. It makes me feel better. Thats about it. Worth looking into or learning more. Now, doing shit like this is a part of what people go threw when they get divorced or have a bad patch anyway. I mean the do something new thing dealing with loss, whatever. Right now, I'm just riding a wave of emotions from 1 minute to the next and worried about my girls. I'm tryin to survive, basically. Feels like it anyway.

charger — Mar 08, 2012This was a fascinating Fresh Air yesterday...

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/07/148125942/the-book-of-revelation-visions-prophecy-politics

All about the book of Revelation, which is the strangest piece of fiction I've ever seen.

Not a lot of new stuff there.  I know some of Pagels work.  She has done a lot of stuff with the Nag HAmmadi research.  She's big time.

Hookbender — Mar 09, 2012
If all the Religious books are the same teaching, why do we have so many?

Because everyone has their own idea of what YOU should believe about a host of topics.  Geographically speaking because of the diversity of people over time it's no wonder we have a diversity of religion.  What one man creates any man can create.

How would I be "avoiding responsibility" of anything? Whether I'm religious or not, I have to live it. It doesn't just go away because I'm religious. No one's gonna live it for me. I don't get that.

By letting the opiate of religion take over.  Many Christians choose to NOT deal with things and instead "Turn it over to Jesus".  IF you do that, then at that point you are avoiding responsibility.  I was short the other day when I wrote that and didn't have time to expand the idea further.  My bad.

Look, I ain't losin my mind here. But I am interested. Right now it's entertainment. It makes me feel better. Thats about it. Worth looking into or learning more. Now, doing shit like this is a part of what people go threw when they get divorced or have a bad patch anyway. I mean the do something new thing dealing with loss, whatever. Right now, I'm just riding a wave of emotions from 1 minute to the next and worried about my girls. I'm tryin to survive, basically. Feels like it anyway.

That's no different than how anyone else gets rooked into religion.  You are looking for answers and need solace.  To find comfort in a nice message is really easy for anyone to do.  But just because it's a good message doesn't mean that it's divine.  But let us not forget that for every good message you can find in the bible there are TERRIBLE messages you can find in there also.  Big fan of slavery?  God is.  Big fan of genocide?  God is.  Big fan of killing innocent people for no reason?  God loves that shit.  

If you are going to only subscribe to PART of it......whats the point?  

CraigBert — Mar 08, 2012[quote author=charger link=1330830897/0#9 date=1331233574]This was a fascinating Fresh Air yesterday...

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/07/148125942/the-book-of-revelation-visions-prophecy-politics

All about the book of Revelation, which is the strangest piece of fiction I've ever seen.

More so than Genesis?

Genesis isn't that strange, especially because it's a monomyth that's existed in every culture since time began... it was hardly invented by the Jews!

Revelation, though, is completely created out of whole cloth, and insane.

I just find it interesting that our planet takes more time than the rest of the universe to create and that an omnipotent being needs to rest.

Fenderbender — Mar 09, 2012[quote author=Hookbender link=1330830897/0#11 date=1331252951]
If all the Religious books are the same teaching, why do we have so many?

Because everyone has their own idea of what YOU should believe about a host of topics.  Geographically speaking because of the diversity of people over time it's no wonder we have a diversity of religion.  What one man creates any man can create.

How would I be "avoiding responsibility" of anything? Whether I'm religious or not, I have to live it. It doesn't just go away because I'm religious. No one's gonna live it for me. I don't get that.

By letting the opiate of religion take over.  Many Christians choose to NOT deal with things and instead "Turn it over to Jesus".  IF you do that, then at that point you are avoiding responsibility.  I was short the other day when I wrote that and didn't have time to expand the idea further.  My bad.

Look, I ain't losin my mind here. But I am interested. Right now it's entertainment. It makes me feel better. Thats about it. Worth looking into or learning more. Now, doing shit like this is a part of what people go threw when they get divorced or have a bad patch anyway. I mean the do something new thing dealing with loss, whatever. Right now, I'm just riding a wave of emotions from 1 minute to the next and worried about my girls. I'm tryin to survive, basically. Feels like it anyway.

That's no different than how anyone else gets rooked into religion.  You are looking for answers and need solace.  To find comfort in a nice message is really easy for anyone to do.  But just because it's a good message doesn't mean that it's divine.  But let us not forget that for every good message you can find in the bible there are TERRIBLE messages you can find in there also.  Big fan of slavery?  God is.  Big fan of genocide?  God is.  Big fan of killing innocent people for no reason?  God loves that shit.  

If you are going to only subscribe to PART of it......whats the point?  

Well, if "Religions" goal is to help people live better, whats the problem? Who cares how many religions we have? If they are designed to help people live better overall, I don't see the problem with it. I don't get people trying to get me in a church everyday. If I don't want to see it on TV, I just turn the channel. No big deal really.

What, exactly, can anyone literally turn over to Jesus? And if you turn something over to Jesus, what effect does that have? Look, I can say, for example, something like..." .ok Jesus, I'm going through this shit and it's hard. I'm laying this in your lap."

Now, me saying this, or doing this doesn't change my situation. It may change "how" I deal with it. But "I" still have to deal with it. Whether you lay something in Jesus lap or not, what your really asking for is guidance and maybe strength. Jesus isn't going to come down here and physically go through your bad situation and fix it for you. In my case, for example, doing something stupid right now is my biggest enemy. It wouldn't take much temptation for me to beat the hell out of this guy she's seeing or even her, for that matter for what she's doing to my children. So, if preying, laying something in Jesus lap, or asking for guidance and strength, gives me an extra boost of calm while going through this, what's the problem? Now, I could do that, or, go get counseling and essentially do the same thing on the science side of the coin. Basically, it's there for the same purpose. And, it's goal is kinda the same. I can let religion inspire me to be calm and do the right thing for my kids, or I can let some stranger inspire me to do it. Not much difference. Just cheaper to go the religion route. It's in no way going to cause me to be irresponsible.

Here's my take on religion. First, I'm not getting it like it was originally written. I'm getting a hand selected message. Only part of it. So either way, I'm never gonna get deep enough into it to get it all and who has the time to search for it? So, if I'm gonna only get part of it, I'm gonna take the part I agree with and find good in and run with it. Why should I dwell on the negative parts and question all that stuff and deny myself the good I can get from it? If God killed innocent people, in your opinion, what's the difference in that and sending people to hell for not believing today? He could still be killing innocent people in some people's opinion. If a Christian dies today and he let that happen, is that God killing the innocent too? My point is, we only have part of religion, so there is no way to avoid subscribing to only part of it. And the point of doing that, for me, right now, is to help myself work through this Jerry Springer nightmare I'm dealing with.

Religion could be looked at as a method of forgiveness for....yourself.....as much as being forgiven by a thing that lives in the sky, ya know. People make mistakes everyday. If you feel bad about certain things, it may help you to get over it quicker, preying and asking for forgiveness. Kinda like a self healing mini course.

Religion is about getting a message from what you've read. If I listen to a preacher and like what he's said, and I take it a certain way that seems good to me, why would I let someone else tell me different? If you read a paragraph from the Bible to 500 people and get 400 different views of that paragraph but it inspires those 400 people in a good way, why give a damn about how many interpretations there are? The goal of religion is to inspire people to be good people, generally speaking, not to be bible scholars. Just my opinion.

Here's the kinda advice I received from religious and non religious folks.

NON religious...

beat the guys ass.
kick the bitch out of the house
take everything you can get your hands on, fuck her
only think of yourself right now, your gonna get fucked in court

Religious....

Go back to her and try to work it out
go get counseling
start going to church and speak with the pastor and let them try to help your marriage
do whatever you can to save your marriage because it will benefit your kids
think of your kids first during this
your children deserve your best effort in saving your marriage
if it doesn't get better after that, then leave

What seems more logical and reasonable, and the mature adult advice in these 2 example's?

Not one time has any non-religious friend or person ever once considered what's best for my children in their advice. I found that really interesting.

Excuse me?

My advice was:

Tell her to stop drinking and start smoking some herb, and get some marriage counseling.  Too many people think they can fix shit on their own.  A good marriage counselor can help you see things differently.

For those keeping track at home, that's advice from someone non-religious.
It was you who decided to go for the divorce. None of us can decide that for you.

Hookbender — Mar 10, 2012

Well, if "Religions" goal is to help people live better, whats the problem? Who cares how many religions we have? If they are designed to help people live better overall, I don't see the problem with it. I don't get people trying to get me in a church everyday. If I don't want to see it on TV, I just turn the channel. No big deal really.

The problem with religion is it creates segregation.  You either believe like them or you don't.  So if YOU are religious and I am not....then you think I'm going to hell.  You HAVE to think that as it is part of your religion.  It's a shitty thing to say to a person.  You MUST act like you have the moral high ground when you really don't.  you get to act like God is on your side when you really have no fucking clue.  

The whole us vs. them mentality is the big problem.  

Now the problem is with what YOU are doing is you are operating under the "Christian Lite" rules.  Which means you are ACTING like a Christian but you are not totally committed to the practices.  In effect you are creating your own splinter group of yet another splinter group, which is why there is so much diversity in any one religion in the first place.  Of course you like SOME of it....but you certainly don't like all of it and you certainly don't know all of it.

What, exactly, can anyone literally turn over to Jesus? And if you turn something over to Jesus, what effect does that have? Look, I can say, for example, something like..." .ok Jesus, I'm going through this shit and it's hard. I'm laying this in your lap."

Now, me saying this, or doing this doesn't change my situation. It may change "how" I deal with it. But "I" still have to deal with it. Whether you lay something in Jesus lap or not, what your really asking for is guidance and maybe strength. Jesus isn't going to come down here and physically go through your bad situation and fix it for you. In my case, for example, doing something stupid right now is my biggest enemy. It wouldn't take much temptation for me to beat the hell out of this guy she's seeing or even her, for that matter for what she's doing to my children. So, if preying, laying something in Jesus lap, or asking for guidance and strength, gives me an extra boost of calm while going through this, what's the problem? Now, I could do that, or, go get counseling and essentially do the same thing on the science side of the coin. Basically, it's there for the same purpose. And, it's goal is kinda the same. I can let religion inspire me to be calm and do the right thing for my kids, or I can let some stranger inspire me to do it. Not much difference. Just cheaper to go the religion route. It's in no way going to cause me to be irresponsible.

The problem is you are avoiding reality.  You end up taking a passive/aggressive stance on certain issues.  "Fuck I don't know what to do....So I won't do shit and let Jesus fix it in his own mysterious way.  

Go ahead and ask Jesus for guidance.  What is Jesus really going to do for you?  Nothing.  So giving it to Jesus gets you nothing.  You haven't fixed your issue....and neither has Jesus.  

You can't compare Jesus to psychological help.  If you seek the aide of a head shrinker you will actually GET something out of the exchange.  With Jesus you get to SAY shit and get it off your chest (which can be a good thing but you don't need Jesus to do that) and you get NOTHING in return.  

The responsible thing to do is fix your problems and FACE them head on.   IT is irresponsible to let Jesus do it for you because you might as well be ask my cock to fix it for you or one of your shit stained pairs of underwear to fix it for you.  The effect is exactly the same.

Here's my take on religion. First, I'm not getting it like it was originally written. I'm getting a hand selected message. Only part of it. So either way, I'm never gonna get deep enough into it to get it all and who has the time to search for it? So, if I'm gonna only get part of it, I'm gonna take the part I agree with and find good in and run with it. Why should I dwell on the negative parts and question all that stuff and deny myself the good I can get from it?

All your doing is cherry picking then what you like about religion.  You are bastardizing.  It IS your responsibility to learn about religion.  IF you are going to be a part of ANYTHING you need to be responsible enough to know what it is you are getting yourself into.  That's one of my biggest pet peeves about Christians is that they are typically SUnday Christians and really don't know a fraction of anything about their own religion.  They are content, like you, to get some bullshit half baked version of it.  Because you don't know much of anything about it you can't have a serious conversation with them about anything because THEY don't know what the fuck they are talking about.  

If Jesus were talking to you he'd have to call you a heretic, because that is exactly what you are.

If God killed innocent people, in your opinion, what's the difference in that and sending people to hell for not believing today?

Your not going to get to speed past this like you didn't say it.  If God is real then God by his own admission in the Bible kills innocent people.  IF God is absent and does not show himself to his people then people like me cannot believe in your God.  IF God were to actually be real and I got sent to Hell because I couldn't know God....then God is just a prick anyway and hardly worth the praise you give him.  He's also a leader of sheep....blind fucking sheep.  

He could still be killing innocent people in some people's opinion. If a Christian dies today and he let that happen, is that God killing the innocent too? My point is, we only have part of religion, so there is no way to avoid subscribing to only part of it. And the point of doing that, for me, right now, is to help myself work through this Jerry Springer nightmare I'm dealing with.

You'd be far better served seeing a psychologist.  But that costs money if you don't have good insurance, and God forbid anyone pay for services anymore.   ;D

Religion could be looked at as a method of forgiveness for....yourself.....as much as being forgiven by a thing that lives in the sky, ya know. People make mistakes everyday. If you feel bad about certain things, it may help you to get over it quicker, preying and asking for forgiveness. Kinda like a self healing mini course.

First time I saw this....I let it go.....it's "praying" motherfucker.   ::)

I don't need God to forgive myself.  I just forgive myself.  Do I fuck up?  Yep.  It's what you do with the knowledge that you fucked up that is the difference.  I go and make things right with the person and then I dwell on it no more.  Why?   We handled it.  They forgave me and even if they didn't I did my best to try and make it right which allows me to forgive myself.

Religion is about getting a message from what you've read. If I listen to a preacher and like what he's said, and I take it a certain way that seems good to me, why would I let someone else tell me different? If you read a paragraph from the Bible to 500 people and get 400 different views of that paragraph but it inspires those 400 people in a good way, why give a damn about how many interpretations there are? The goal of religion is to inspire people to be good people, generally speaking, not to be bible scholars. Just my opinion.

The goal of religion is to MAKE you believe in some version of God.  It does this by providing a method of living your life.  If you happen to like that method you tend to go with it.  You are however being a bit different in that you are only dealing with the parts that you wanna hear.  You don't even want to think about the shit in your "religion" that is troubling because you don't have the time to actually INVEST in your religion.  You are actually cheapening the idea of religion with the half-hearted way you participate in it.

Here's the kinda advice I received from religious and non religious folks.

NON religious...

beat the guys ass.
kick the bitch out of the house
take everything you can get your hands on, fuck her
only think of yourself right now, your gonna get fucked in court

Religious....

Go back to her and try to work it out
go get counseling
start going to church and speak with the pastor and let them try to help your marriage
do whatever you can to save your marriage because it will benefit your kids
think of your kids first during this
your children deserve your best effort in saving your marriage
if it doesn't get better after that, then leave

What seems more logical and reasonable, and the mature adult advice in these 2 example's?

See you've already made my case for me.  You've created separation in two groups of people and because of your half assed methods you have fucked up.

If you remember correctly....I thought you were WRONG to say she was cheating on you based on your "evidence" or really a lack thereof.  I was the one that said, "Shit man it was just a kiss"  So I was trying to give you advice to fix it.  

In fact, until YOU finally learned she was cheating on I was all for fixing the marriage.  

So you are wrong.  You are simply defending your faith because in your moment of need it SEEMS to be all you have.  You left your balls in a jar in the fridge and haven't really done shit to fix the situation.  Seems like the non-religious ideas I had aren't as bad as you'd like them to be, yet your religious ideas haven't gained you a thing.

Not one time has any non-religious friend or person ever once considered what's best for my children in their advice. I found that really interesting.

You must be on drugs.  Or you don't read.  I gave you advice on this and it was good.

charger — Mar 11, 2012Excuse me?

My advice was:
Tell her to stop drinking and start smoking some herb, and get some marriage counseling.  Too many people think they can fix shit on their own.  A good marriage counselor can help you see things differently.

For those keeping track at home, that's advice from someone non-religious.
It was you who decided to go for the divorce. None of us can decide that for you.

For you Charger, and Fender....

I was talking about people outside this forum. I knew I would get some good advice, or advice to make me think things through a little more, from you. I left that out, my bad.

Here's what I've done since all this shit started concerning the whore.

I've said this. You fucked up. You broke up 2 families and hurt 3 kids in the process for whatever reason you give, doesn't matter. You were wrong for that, period.

You question whether I love you so here is my proposal. Drop him, he doesn't exist anymore. No phone calls, no facebook, no text, no nothing. That has to happen first. If you decide to do that, them we need counseling. I can't fix what I feel on my own and you probably can't either. We definitely don't have the skills to work this out ourselves. We need help. I gave her 9 days to drop the guy. That has to happen before we move forward. I told her if the details had to come out, they could come out in counseling. I expected the worse anyway. If counseling doesn't work, we'll deal with that later. I was willing to look past what the fuck ever she did and move on with counseling.

About 6 days go by, I mention counseling, she says she isn't gonna do that. I ask about the ending the shit with the guy, she says she is, but hasn't yet. On the 9th day I ask her about it again. Still hasn't. I said fuck it then, and she got pissed and said she wanted a divorce. I said done. So, that's where I am now. Getting a divorce.

I'd like to know exactly what the fuck else I could have done. I think that's the biggest show of love and support probably anyone in this shitty position has offered. I don't see anything else I could have done. This bitch didn't deserve that much.

Fender

I can do whatever I want with religion. That's been done since the beginning. I have no desire to attend a a church at this point and see no need to in the future. Jesus says "Pray" in the closet anyway. So, I'll be a closet christian if anything. ;D

I may never pursue this anyway. Like I said, it's a feel good drug right now for me.

And, I'm not actually participating in "religion" for that matter. I'm like a selfish user of religion at this point. Yeah, I'm taking the good and ignoring the bad. I don't think that it says in the bible to to know and understand the entire context or go to hell, or you failed somehow.

In my opinion I could care less if God exist or not. I mean, if he does that's fine, if he doesn't that's fine. I can still use the teaching. I can still be interested. Is there a hell? Who gives a damn. Thats not the point for me. The purpose is for me to make it through this shitty time and see what happens with the future, later I guess. Even science doesn't know everything that exist.

Organized religion, like baptist etc., may segregate t bit. So what. They don't concern me. You act as if I'm going to some church every sunday and bowling with a sunday school class on saturday night. Far from it. Chill out, it's just a adventure, kinda. Why get so defensive as if your mad that someone's doing different than you, or different period. I understand what I'm doing. It's ok.  

I don't really think religions main objective is to make you believe in God. That sounds crazy because that's the only way to get to the magic carpet ride. But I can use the heaven thing today and care less about their being an actual heaven. I can use the Bible to learn. To help me get past shitty times. To be thankful for good times. I know I can do that without religion, but right now, today, it works for me. I guess I'm playing a mind game on myself. ;D But that's better than going to this guys house and beating the hell out of him for something my wife let happen, you see? I don't like jail, although I've never been there, and I don't like the idea of being someone's bitch in jail. ;D I can't beat the hell out of those guys. ;D But jail is where I'd end up if I did things my way. The first thing I did was put my pistol in my car when I found out. See, I have so far made pretty good decisions. ;D

And look, you know after all the debates we have here I know more than most about religion and what it means to believe in a God thing. I don't know everything, or as much as you, for example, but there's no reason I can't learn that much. I just don't think being a bible scholar is what religion is all about. Doesn't mean I'm right, it's just not for me. You'll possibly see me post in 6 months saying I'm over it and I just had the best pussy in my life. Who knows.

Hookbender — Mar 11, 2012Here's what I've done since all this shit started concerning the whore.

I've said this. You fucked up. You broke up 2 families and hurt 3 kids in the process for whatever reason you give, doesn't matter. You were wrong for that, period.

You question whether I love you so here is my proposal. Drop him, he doesn't exist anymore. No phone calls, no facebook, no text, no nothing. That has to happen first. If you decide to do that, them we need counseling. I can't fix what I feel on my own and you probably can't either. We definitely don't have the skills to work this out ourselves. We need help. I gave her 9 days to drop the guy. That has to happen before we move forward. I told her if the details had to come out, they could come out in counseling. I expected the worse anyway. If counseling doesn't work, we'll deal with that later. I was willing to look past what the fuck ever she did and move on with counseling.

About 6 days go by, I mention counseling, she says she isn't gonna do that. I ask about the ending the shit with the guy, she says she is, but hasn't yet. On the 9th day I ask her about it again. Still hasn't. I said fuck it then, and she got pissed and said she wanted a divorce. I said done. So, that's where I am now. Getting a divorce.

I'd like to know exactly what the fuck else I could have done. I think that's the biggest show of love and support probably anyone in this shitty position has offered. I don't see anything else I could have done. This bitch didn't deserve that much.

YOU did everything right.  You were supportive and you did offer terms.  She was initially interested in your terms and offer and over time became indifferent and decided....FUCK YOU.

You aren't left at that point with many option.  So you capitulated and agreed to her terms.

There is no sense in beating yourself up over it.  It wasn't what you did that ended it.  Could you have been a better husband?  Sure.  you've admitted that much.  Could she have been a better wife?  Hells yeah.  She wants to justify her actions based on what you weren't for her.  The problem is she apparently wasn't clear or didn't seem to confide in you her concerns for your relationship prior to cheating on you.

Thus SHE is really the problem at the end of the day.

You give her the divorce.  you take what you need (house.....kids.....the good vehicle) and fuck her.  She made her bed.  Let her deal with that.

Hookbender — Mar 11, 2012Fender

I can do whatever I want with religion. That's been done since the beginning. I have no desire to attend a a church at this point and see no need to in the future. Jesus says "Pray" in the closet anyway. So, I'll be a closet christian if anything. ;D

In the closet huh?  You know that leads to homosexuality....and Jesus hates fags. :D

Of course you can do whatever you want with religion.  That's exactly why for a person like me religion has ZERO value.  

I may never pursue this anyway. Like I said, it's a feel good drug right now for me.

Spending time with your kids is a better drug.

And, I'm not actually participating in "religion" for that matter. I'm like a selfish user of religion at this point. Yeah, I'm taking the good and ignoring the bad. I don't think that it says in the bible to to know and understand the entire context or go to hell, or you failed somehow.

Depends on which tract of religion you follow really.  Though given your geography....I'd guess you could only be some sort of Protestant raised church goer....thus FAITH is all you need to be goin' to Heaven.

That being said Jesus DID say that you should question your religion and thus asserts that you should be an avid student of it.  He wanted you to be sheep....as in meek and mild.....not blind.  Furthermore, Jesus constantly rebukes the disciples for not knowing shit about God or Jesus or what is important within the religion.  So I'd say you got that one pretty wrong chief.

In my opinion I could care less if God exist or not. I mean, if he does that's fine, if he doesn't that's fine. I can still use the teaching. I can still be interested. Is there a hell? Who gives a damn. Thats not the point for me. The purpose is for me to make it through this shitty time and see what happens with the future, later I guess. Even science doesn't know everything that exist.

Then you need not use religion as an opiate.  It COULD be said I live a pretty Christian type of life except I do it without faith.  Does that mean that I actively apply teachings of the bible to my life?  No.  I agree with you that you can apply teachings of the bible or any other religion to your life in a positive way.  No harm in that.  I think the harm comes in saying that those teachings are divine.  They are not.  They are reflections of common thought in a small part of society that because they are given divine authority carry more weight in the mind of ancient man as something to be followed.

Organized religion, like baptist etc., may segregate t bit. So what. They don't concern me. You act as if I'm going to some church every sunday and bowling with a sunday school class on saturday night. Far from it. Chill out, it's just a adventure, kinda. Why get so defensive as if your mad that someone's doing different than you, or different period. I understand what I'm doing. It's ok.  

I'm not mad.  I do think it's silly to identify yourself as religious when obviously you are cherry picking.  Or perhaps you are just experimenting with the notion.  You still appear to have a hard time separating common sense from religion at the moment and to me that is dangerous stuff.  

I don't really think religions main objective is to make you believe in God. That sounds crazy because that's the only way to get to the magic carpet ride. But I can use the heaven thing today and care less about their being an actual heaven. I can use the Bible to learn. To help me get past shitty times. To be thankful for good times. I know I can do that without religion, but right now, today, it works for me. I guess I'm playing a mind game on myself. ;D But that's better than going to this guys house and beating the hell out of him for something my wife let happen, you see? I don't like jail, although I've never been there, and I don't like the idea of being someone's bitch in jail. ;D I can't beat the hell out of those guys. ;D But jail is where I'd end up if I did things my way. The first thing I did was put my pistol in my car when I found out. See, I have so far made pretty good decisions. ;D

You are wrong.  Evidence is that if you don't believe you go to hell.  Therefore, out of concern for your immortal soul it is imperative that you become religious and ultimately believe in God for without faith in God none of the rest of what you believe or do matters.  You could be sinless and without faith go to hell.  To veil that thought from you, you are taught that you are a creature of sin.  You can't help but sin.  What is the only way to wash it away?  the blood of Christ.  How do you get that?  Gotta believe.  (Though truthfully the blood was already shed for everyone and thus we are all already washed sinless)  Thus if you don't believe then you make the sacrifice worthless and you are doomed to hell.  

At any rate, you'd be FAR better served seeing a psychologist than following SOME bible stuff.  At least you'd GET what you need...real help rather than masking the problems with Jesus.

Do you really need a bible to tell you not to shoot a guy?  If so you have more serious problems than I thought.  Your reality has fractured and you are having a hard time telling the difference between good and bad realities.

And look, you know after all the debates we have here I know more than most about religion and what it means to believe in a God thing. I don't know everything, or as much as you, for example, but there's no reason I can't learn that much. I just don't think being a bible scholar is what religion is all about. Doesn't mean I'm right, it's just not for me. You'll possibly see me post in 6 months saying I'm over it and I just had the best pussy in my life. Who knows.

I'm not saying you have to be a scholar either.  But the fact is there are tons of issues with the construction of the bible that lends itself to needing to be a scholar to get the finer points of religion.  there are sooooooooooooooooooooooo many things that are very important and central to religion that people seriously don't know shit about and yet they identify themselves as religious for their entire lives and know literally nothing.  It's sad I think.  To profess to know the will of God and yet know literally nothing of his religion.

Fenderbender — Mar 12, 2012[quote author=Hookbender link=1330830897/0#20 date=1331500233]Here's what I've done since all this shit started concerning the whore.

I've said this. You fucked up. You broke up 2 families and hurt 3 kids in the process for whatever reason you give, doesn't matter. You were wrong for that, period.

You question whether I love you so here is my proposal. Drop him, he doesn't exist anymore. No phone calls, no facebook, no text, no nothing. That has to happen first. If you decide to do that, them we need counseling. I can't fix what I feel on my own and you probably can't either. We definitely don't have the skills to work this out ourselves. We need help. I gave her 9 days to drop the guy. That has to happen before we move forward. I told her if the details had to come out, they could come out in counseling. I expected the worse anyway. If counseling doesn't work, we'll deal with that later. I was willing to look past what the fuck ever she did and move on with counseling.

About 6 days go by, I mention counseling, she says she isn't gonna do that. I ask about the ending the shit with the guy, she says she is, but hasn't yet. On the 9th day I ask her about it again. Still hasn't. I said fuck it then, and she got pissed and said she wanted a divorce. I said done. So, that's where I am now. Getting a divorce.

I'd like to know exactly what the fuck else I could have done. I think that's the biggest show of love and support probably anyone in this shitty position has offered. I don't see anything else I could have done. This bitch didn't deserve that much.

YOU did everything right.  You were supportive and you did offer terms.  She was initially interested in your terms and offer and over time became indifferent and decided....FUCK YOU.

You aren't left at that point with many option.  So you capitulated and agreed to her terms.

There is no sense in beating yourself up over it.  It wasn't what you did that ended it.  Could you have been a better husband?  Sure.  you've admitted that much.  Could she have been a better wife?  Hells yeah.  She wants to justify her actions based on what you weren't for her.  The problem is she apparently wasn't clear or didn't seem to confide in you her concerns for your relationship prior to cheating on you.

Thus SHE is really the problem at the end of the day.

You give her the divorce.  you take what you need (house.....kids.....the good vehicle) and fuck her.  She made her bed.  Let her deal with that.


Yeah, she kinda did tell me her concerns. It's a I want what my Mom has kinda thing.

She wants to be hugged and called on the phone every ten minutes and know what I'm doing and thinking every 2 minutes. You know the type. Like those little high school chicks you and I dated years ago. She wanted kids I didn't. That I let her know during dating. Then she gets this need for kids all the sudden. So, I give in and we have not 1 child, but 2. I'm glad we did, don't get me wrong, just giving you some history. I hate living in neighborhoods. I like quiet country and land. She wanted a neighborhood. So, I get her a big nice house in a hood. My point is I gave her what she wanted. Even if I didn't want it it.

Her Mom and Dad. Glad i don't have to see them much anymore. ;D Here's how this shit goes. No exaggeration. This guy has no say in anything. If my wife's Mom says to do something, this fucker jumps. The woman is a total bitch from hell. The funniest thing I ever saw was he came out of his bedroom one time in a new pair of sweat pants. this bitch saw that and told him to go back to his room and change those pants. She didn't say he could wear those yet. The fucker put his head down and walked back to his room and changed those pants. ;D ;D I fell off the chair laughing my ass off. Thats just one example. Thats what she's seen for her entire life.

Now, I have never been a real touchy, emotional kind of guy. Not ever with her. Now all the sudden that's important to her. And, I pretty much have quit any relationship with her bitch mom because of some hit she started at my house on Christmas. I think the real deal is the mom thing. She knows I won't take any shit from her and I hate her. Of course, I think the importance of the change of needs is the fucker she's seeing, probably has little to do with me. She could also be going through a mid-life crises of some sort. Many women go through this kinda thing between 30 and 40, especially after having kids. But will never know what the real problem is because she won't do counseling.

Now, after seeing an attorney, I can't get the house and kids. She says the kids are to young and the judge will consider that. She thinks that the the judge will say the kids are better off with their mother, the cheating whore, because of their age. And, since the kids are young, he'll probably grant her the house. Because...she has the kids. Long story short, I'm fucked and it doesn't matter what a bitch does it seems. So, I'll just move the fuck on. She's working on getting the house in her name today. Once she does that, I have excellent credit and the house comes off my credit report and I get a fresh start. Not a bad deal, really. It could be much worse. Pretty low child support payments and I get all my toys. Motorcycle and boat and shit. All paid for. I'll be ok. It will take a few years to get back financially, but I'll do it.

Fenderbender — Mar 12, 2012[quote author=Hookbender link=1330830897/0#21 date=1331502345]Fender

I can do whatever I want with religion. That's been done since the beginning. I have no desire to attend a a church at this point and see no need to in the future. Jesus says "Pray" in the closet anyway. So, I'll be a closet christian if anything. ;D

In the closet huh?  You know that leads to homosexuality....and Jesus hates fags. :D

Of course you can do whatever you want with religion.  That's exactly why for a person like me religion has ZERO value.  

I may never pursue this anyway. Like I said, it's a feel good drug right now for me.

Spending time with your kids is a better drug.

And, I'm not actually participating in "religion" for that matter. I'm like a selfish user of religion at this point. Yeah, I'm taking the good and ignoring the bad. I don't think that it says in the bible to to know and understand the entire context or go to hell, or you failed somehow.

Depends on which tract of religion you follow really.  Though given your geography....I'd guess you could only be some sort of Protestant raised church goer....thus FAITH is all you need to be goin' to Heaven.

That being said Jesus DID say that you should question your religion and thus asserts that you should be an avid student of it.  He wanted you to be sheep....as in meek and mild.....not blind.  Furthermore, Jesus constantly rebukes the disciples for not knowing shit about God or Jesus or what is important within the religion.  So I'd say you got that one pretty wrong chief.

In my opinion I could care less if God exist or not. I mean, if he does that's fine, if he doesn't that's fine. I can still use the teaching. I can still be interested. Is there a hell? Who gives a damn. Thats not the point for me. The purpose is for me to make it through this shitty time and see what happens with the future, later I guess. Even science doesn't know everything that exist.

Then you need not use religion as an opiate.  It COULD be said I live a pretty Christian type of life except I do it without faith.  Does that mean that I actively apply teachings of the bible to my life?  No.  I agree with you that you can apply teachings of the bible or any other religion to your life in a positive way.  No harm in that.  I think the harm comes in saying that those teachings are divine.  They are not.  They are reflections of common thought in a small part of society that because they are given divine authority carry more weight in the mind of ancient man as something to be followed.

Organized religion, like baptist etc., may segregate t bit. So what. They don't concern me. You act as if I'm going to some church every sunday and bowling with a sunday school class on saturday night. Far from it. Chill out, it's just a adventure, kinda. Why get so defensive as if your mad that someone's doing different than you, or different period. I understand what I'm doing. It's ok.  

I'm not mad.  I do think it's silly to identify yourself as religious when obviously you are cherry picking.  Or perhaps you are just experimenting with the notion.  You still appear to have a hard time separating common sense from religion at the moment and to me that is dangerous stuff.  

I don't really think religions main objective is to make you believe in God. That sounds crazy because that's the only way to get to the magic carpet ride. But I can use the heaven thing today and care less about their being an actual heaven. I can use the Bible to learn. To help me get past shitty times. To be thankful for good times. I know I can do that without religion, but right now, today, it works for me. I guess I'm playing a mind game on myself. ;D But that's better than going to this guys house and beating the hell out of him for something my wife let happen, you see? I don't like jail, although I've never been there, and I don't like the idea of being someone's bitch in jail. ;D I can't beat the hell out of those guys. ;D But jail is where I'd end up if I did things my way. The first thing I did was put my pistol in my car when I found out. See, I have so far made pretty good decisions. ;D

You are wrong.  Evidence is that if you don't believe you go to hell.  Therefore, out of concern for your immortal soul it is imperative that you become religious and ultimately believe in God for without faith in God none of the rest of what you believe or do matters.  You could be sinless and without faith go to hell.  To veil that thought from you, you are taught that you are a creature of sin.  You can't help but sin.  What is the only way to wash it away?  the blood of Christ.  How do you get that?  Gotta believe.  (Though truthfully the blood was already shed for everyone and thus we are all already washed sinless)  Thus if you don't believe then you make the sacrifice worthless and you are doomed to hell.  

At any rate, you'd be FAR better served seeing a psychologist than following SOME bible stuff.  At least you'd GET what you need...real help rather than masking the problems with Jesus.

Do you really need a bible to tell you not to shoot a guy?  If so you have more serious problems than I thought.  Your reality has fractured and you are having a hard time telling the difference between good and bad realities.

And look, you know after all the debates we have here I know more than most about religion and what it means to believe in a God thing. I don't know everything, or as much as you, for example, but there's no reason I can't learn that much. I just don't think being a bible scholar is what religion is all about. Doesn't mean I'm right, it's just not for me. You'll possibly see me post in 6 months saying I'm over it and I just had the best pussy in my life. Who knows.

I'm not saying you have to be a scholar either.  But the fact is there are tons of issues with the construction of the bible that lends itself to needing to be a scholar to get the finer points of religion.  there are sooooooooooooooooooooooo many things that are very important and central to religion that people seriously don't know shit about and yet they identify themselves as religious for their entire lives and know literally nothing.  It's sad I think.  To profess to know the will of God and yet know literally nothing of his religion.

Evidence is???? Their is no evidence in religion. You would first have to identify a hell before the theory is considered. But, I get your point.

Cherry picking, maybe. I don't think I'd go to hell for not going to church, especially todays churches. But I don't really care about all that. I'm not considering this because of a fear of going to hell or a dreamed up notion that I want to go to heaven. I can't really be fully religious anyway. I'd have to be convinced there was a God to be that, I guess.

No, the gun in the car was just a knee jerk reaction that really meant nothing. I could never shoot anyone anyway, unless it was self defense. Now, the thought of beating the hell out of this guy, came damn close to that. It took everything in me to stop myself. But I did, and went and played golf for 2 days. I beat the hell out of golf balls.  ;D

I've done 2 things that I'm proud of during this. What I just described, and, when I told my parents about us splitting up, I didn't mention her cheating with a married guy. I left all that out. I figured it could only harm my children in some way and really wouldn't do any good. Only harm. They will be pissed enough anyway. But, they will get over it much quicker without all the facts. Hopefully, things will get to a normal place in 6 months or so and the kids will get adjusted. They are my only concern, really. Nothing else really matters.  

Fenderbender — Mar 08, 2012Hook let me water it down for ya.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that you can't find in other religions.  There is NOTHING in the bible that you would think is correct thinking that you can't derive out of common sense.

I understand you are going through a rough patch right now, but that doesn't for a second mean you need to avoid responsibility and take ownership of the situation rather than differing to some imaginary being that even IF he was real seems to obviously not give two shits in the first place.

BTW....Atheists can deal with disecting the bible far beyond one story at a time.  IF you have ever bothered to read any of my points on religion....you'd know that most of what I currently know that proves religion is bollocks was learned at the feet of religion and not other atheists.  Though I will admit that Atheists got the ball rolling for me.

I'm reading an excellent book right now about the how most of what you think you know about Peter, Paul and Mary is rubbish and it's written by one of the leading CHRISTIAN authorities on the planet right now.  Dude teaches at a seminary and has written several books dealing wtih the huge problems the bible creates.

What book is that?  

DreamTheaterRules — Mar 12, 2012[quote author=Fenderbender link=1330830897/0#7 date=1331225817]Hook let me water it down for ya.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that you can't find in other religions.  There is NOTHING in the bible that you would think is correct thinking that you can't derive out of common sense.

I understand you are going through a rough patch right now, but that doesn't for a second mean you need to avoid responsibility and take ownership of the situation rather than differing to some imaginary being that even IF he was real seems to obviously not give two shits in the first place.

BTW....Atheists can deal with disecting the bible far beyond one story at a time.  IF you have ever bothered to read any of my points on religion....you'd know that most of what I currently know that proves religion is bollocks was learned at the feet of religion and not other atheists.  Though I will admit that Atheists got the ball rolling for me.

I'm reading an excellent book right now about the how most of what you think you know about Peter, Paul and Mary is rubbish and it's written by one of the leading CHRISTIAN authorities on the planet right now.  Dude teaches at a seminary and has written several books dealing wtih the huge problems the bible creates.

What book is that?  

Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene: The Followers of Jesus in History and Legend.

If the Bible creates huge problems, then we must cut back on all the books written about people who kill other people, murderers and shit, and all the other bad things that are written in other books as well. The person reading the book may cause a problem, but the bible itself doesn't create one on it's own. If I read a book about building a bomb and do so, and use that bomb to blow up a building..... is the book gonna get arrested, or maybe the author of the book? ;D

Hookbender — Mar 12, 2012If the Bible creates huge problems, then we must cut back on all the books written about people who kill other people, murderers and shit, and all the other bad things that are written in other books as well. The person reading the book may cause a problem, but the bible itself doesn't create one on it's own. If I read a book about building a bomb and do so, and use that bomb to blow up a building..... is the book gonna get arrested, or maybe the author of the book? ;D

We just need to end religion and get rid of all traces of it's existence so that the world can progress instead of falling into states of constant regression.

You would first need to show cause that religion has such effect. Can you do that? And what would your opinion of regression be? I don't see all religious people as being irresponsible because they pray to god about something, either. You know a lot about religion maybe, but your throwing out a shit load assumptions and opinions that equal horse shit. Do you really believe christians pray about things or a bad experience and think that they believe god will come down and take care of the problem while they stand by and watch? Thats what your suggesting and we both know thats a pretty lame statement, not good enough to be called an argument by any means.

And in what other religious book does a god speak through men and tell them in detail about the events of the future?

What are the detailed events of the future you've seen?

I'm speaking about the Bible and it's predictions of future events. Like the birth of Jesus through Mary who was a virgin. Like the death of Jesus and the way he died. It was predicted that he would be crucified before crucifixion existed. Stuff like that.

Hungh?

Hookbender — Mar 13, 2012I'm speaking about the Bible and it's predictions of future events. Like the birth of Jesus through Mary who was a virgin. Like the death of Jesus and the way he died. It was predicted that he would be crucified before crucifixion existed. Stuff like that.

Seriously?

And, as I wrote previously, Charger will answer Hooks statement with the question "Seriously?"  8-)

(Predictions, even accurate ones, are SOOOOO much easier after the fact, aren't they? ;) )

Zaklee.

Hookbender — Mar 13, 2012You would first need to show cause that religion has such effect. Can you do that? And what would your opinion of regression be? I don't see all religious people as being irresponsible because they pray to god about something, either. You know a lot about religion maybe, but your throwing out a shit load assumptions and opinions that equal horse shit. Do you really believe christians pray about things or a bad experience and think that they believe god will come down and take care of the problem while they stand by and watch? Thats what your suggesting and we both know thats a pretty lame statement, not good enough to be called an argument by any means.

And in what other religious book does a god speak through men and tell them in detail about the events of the future?

I'm going to stick with the Christopher Hitchens summation of religion and just simply say that it poisons everything.  Literally.

I'm going to have to be short as I am doing this before class.

It operates under false pretenses.  Often if you need a school in your third world country....Christians will build ya one....but you gotta convert to Jesus.  You don't convert....fuck you.  What good is THAT really?  Now these third world people have to pretend they are all about Jesus just to get an education.

People think Mother Theresa was the greatest thing ever.  You ever REALLY look into her hospitals for the dying?  They were places to literally suffer and die.  Why?  Because Jesus suffered and died.  No medicine.  No health standards.  Little food and what you did get was not nutritional by any standard.  You literally went to these places to die in an agonizing way.  YET.....this chick is revered as a Saint in the Church no less.  It's called fact checking dude and religion SUCKS at fact checking.

Yes I do believe that there are Christians that pray for God to do things and they just stand by and watch.  They pray for all fags to die.  Those that don't stand by and watch go out and kill homo's.  Those that don't do that pray and in general treat them as second class citizens at best.  It would be one thing if people just said, "I don't like fags because the idea of two dudes having butt sex or two chicks having scissor sex makes it impossible for me to stay aroused. "  At that point they would have a valid arguement that we could debate.  But the second they say, "A book says that God hates fags."  I no longer have to accept or respect what they say.  It's not like I can take a comic book to the White House and say, "I want a Green Lantern ring. I read this in a book, make it my reality now."  

Are all Christians bad?  no.  But religion sucks.  When I talk about regression I'm talking about ignoring the observable universe and denying the reality of very real things and replacing reality with Jesus.  At least with evolutionary science we have EVIDENCE.  Creationism is a state of mind not a factual thing at all.


In EVERY religious book God tells of detailed events that come true.  I've got a class now.  In a bit I'll be back to eat this alive.

Hookbender — Mar 13, 2012I'm speaking about the Bible and it's predictions of future events. Like the birth of Jesus through Mary who was a virgin. Like the death of Jesus and the way he died. It was predicted that he would be crucified before crucifixion existed. Stuff like that.

It is painfully obvious that you have no historical context of the bible.  IT's so easy to write about the events of the birth of Jesus as IF they were predicted especially when you sit down to write about them MANY years after his death.  

First off.....ANY writer you speak of in the New Testament was not present at all during the birth process.  So they DON'T in fact know diddley.  They are retelling a story.  A story that if you spent some SERIOUS time with your bible you'd come to realize is nothing more than political hodge podge that tries to elevate JEsus to a higher level through the claim of divine birth.  A story that was NOT unique in anyway.

Why did they do this for Jesus?  Well it's simple.  There ARE prophesy in the OLD Testament about a Messiah.  But if you sit down and READ those you'd realize that most of them FAIL especially if you apply them to Jesus.  For example, WHEN the messiah came there would be world wide observance of the Torah.  Has that EVER happened?  Nope.  It's doesn't mean at some point in the future it meant the moment he came.  There is NOOOOOO concept of a death and resurrection of the messiah in ANY prophesy.  There are some really obscure stories that people try to attribute to Jesus to try to support Jesus as divine.  But if you actually READ those stories they have NOTHING to do with Jesus.  It's manufactured.  People NEED to believe in JEsus and they pour through the bible to invent and create a mythology around JEsus.

There are two accounts of his birth.  If you were enrolled at a seminary (a place where they teach you how to read the bible in a scholarly manner among other things)  If you read the story in Matthew and took notes about events that happened and then read the version in Luke and took notes as to what happened....you'd come to understand you are reading literally two very different stories.  Stories that have been told so many times we have blended them together and thus hidden the truth from ourselves.  Everytime you go to see a Passion play at a church they get it WRONG....they are blending two stories to make a new story that is not accurate at all.  A person could write a book on the errors and bullshit on this story alone.  The reasons they leave Nazereth to get to bethleham are two completely different stories.  One says they left to be part of a census under a governor that was never governor.  The other says they were fleeing from Herod's men.  One says he was born in a cave.  The other says a manger.  One has wisemen.  The other one doesn't.  One says the angel talked only to MAry.  The other says it talked only to Joseph.  It's hodge pedge crap.  

Outta time.....gotta another class.

And... Mary wasn't a virgin.  Come on people!

And also, you do realize that the Bible also predicted that shortly after the Messiah arrived, the world would pretty much end?  What about that prediction?

Then we get to the death and ressurection stories.  HOLY SHIT.  IF you put those stories in chronological order the first story would be the simplest.  Jesus dies.  The story ends and there is no ressurection.  By the time you get to the last telling of it it has built up to an LSD trip that has Jesus doing so many miracles that "all the pages of all the books in the world wouldn't be able to contain all he did".  IT literally says that.

IF you ever had a good literature class you would know that when a story changes and gets more complicated over time.....the events get more grandios....we have a name for that.  It's called a legend.  Which if your a Christian is the ammo you use to call OTHER religions full of shit, yet strangely cannot apply it to your own.

Shit I ahve another class.

Yeah. I knew some of that and most of the arguments your using. But, what if people don't actually care about the truth of these stories and just take the good from the bibles teaching. Your not having a debate with a religious person here and maybe I used the wrong word when I described my intentions. I believe that a person who has been brainwashed, taught about religion, has basically been given a sort of defect that makes one consider these stories as truth even if they know better. I've never been in a church that takes on any argument against the bible's teaching or the credibility of its stories head on.

The truth, or factual content of stories, really aren't my purpose here. Whether there is a God, hell, factual book, none of that matters to me. What matters is the teaching that I can apply to my life that hopefully makes me a better person. The way I handled myself during this shit time I'm going through, in part, was instilled by the teaching of the bible. It kinda made me turn the other cheek, or take the high road, so to speak. 10 years ago this guy she's seeing would be in the hospital today and I'd probably be in jail.

If the bible helped me make better decisions, fuck it. Good for me. Thats all there really is for now.

Look, we all know that the bible was written by men. Not God or Jesus, just fucking men. It's been tampered with from day 1 and changed over the years plenty of times. No way a magical story that is said to be truth could take all that and still be accurate anyway. These people were damn ignorant compared to us today.

But people drink water from different places and survive. Water is needed to survive. Whether it's bottled bullshit water, water from your homes sink, a water fountain, river, lake whatever. When people go through bad times they get support from different places as well. Counselors, churches, friends, family, etc. They use these things to help them get through the bad times. I'm a do it myself type of person. I like to depend on myself. I'd rather work through bad times on my own in my own way. Makes me feel good to come out 6 months later and say, I fucking did it. Thats just me. I can't fix my marriage alone, but I'm confident I can fix myself. Mainly because I did pretty much everything I could to avoid this problem. Now, I have to get my feet on the ground real quick and be strong for my girls. God ain't doing this for me. Just because I pray, doesn't mean the problem is going away or it will be easier to deal with. But if anything helps me through this bad time, I'll use it.

Lets say that God says to forgive, and he does say that, and I do it. I forgive her for all this shit. That doesn't help anyone but me get over this shit quicker. If I hold grudges and beat myself up over this for a year or 2, I prolong the pain for myself. I do no one any good including myself. So, someone says, well how would you feel if God didn't forgive you and 1 sin sent you to hell. That isn't to me, a teaching that requires the belief in God and hell. It's simply a good teaching. I really don't care about God and hell right now, I care about that simple little teaching to forgive because it helps me get through this shit quicker. Because the quicker I move on from being fucked over, the better life I'll have  and especially my children will have. I have to move on and do whats best for them. Getting along with this half baked whore is important to my children's  future and what they have to deal with when they discover I don't live there anymore.  

The bible for me, at this point, is simply free therapy. A tool. Sure, I could use other methods that you may approve of or like better, but if the results are similar or the same, you do the math.

Hookbender — Mar 14, 2012
Lets say that God says to forgive, and he does say that, and I do it. I forgive her for all this shit. That doesn't help anyone but me get over this shit quicker. If I hold grudges and beat myself up over this for a year or 2, I prolong the pain for myself. I do no one any good including myself. So, someone says, well how would you feel if God didn't forgive you and 1 sin sent you to hell. That isn't to me, a teaching that requires the belief in God and hell. It's simply a good teaching. I really don't care about God and hell right now, I care about that simple little teaching to forgive because it helps me get through this shit quicker. Because the quicker I move on from being fucked over, the better life I'll have  and especially my children will have. I have to move on and do whats best for them. Getting along with this half baked whore is important to my children's  future and what they have to deal with when they discover I don't live there anymore.  

Dude, what book are you reading?

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

Oh, OK. So I"m suppose to go kill the 2 idiots. Thats the kinda stuff I'm ignoring.

I'm just sayin'--the message of the Bible is not in any way simple, and there is no set of rules that it espouses... people say this a lot, that the Bible gives us rules to live by.  

Really?  It gives us rules like, if a woman is raped, then everyone should rape her, if a person commits adultery, they should be killed.  

I "think" the message of the New Testament is "love one another and take care of one another".  But that's my interpretation.  There are probably a hundred ridiculous things in the New Testament that would disturb the crap out of me.  The message in there is not unified.  For one thing, some of the people who wrote it were clearly writing their ideas and putting them in the mouth of Jesus. For another, some of them probably never even met Jesus.  And then, there's fucking Revelations, with giant whores riding on dragons and humanity being laid waste.  

It's an insane document to live by.  

You are a human, with free will, and you can always choose to just live well and do right for yourself, not because it's in a book somewhere.  Seriously.

charger — Mar 14, 2012I'm just sayin'--the message of the Bible is not in any way simple, and there is no set of rules that it espouses... people say this a lot, that the Bible gives us rules to live by.  

Really?  It gives us rules like, if a woman is raped, then everyone should rape her, if a person commits adultery, they should be killed.  

I "think" the message of the New Testament is "love one another and take care of one another".  But that's my interpretation.  There are probably a hundred ridiculous things in the New Testament that would disturb the crap out of me.  The message in there is not unified.  For one thing, some of the people who wrote it were clearly writing their ideas and putting them in the mouth of Jesus. For another, some of them probably never even met Jesus.  And then, there's fucking Revelations, with giant whores riding on dragons and humanity being laid waste.  

It's an insane document to live by.  

You are a human, with free will, and you can always choose to just live well and do right for yourself, not because it's in a book somewhere.  Seriously.

Not a bad idea to kill someone who commits adultery, really. The result of adultery is pretty damn bad when kids are involved.

Look, the decision of whether or not to live well is not in question here. Of course people can easily live well and do the right thing in good times. It's the hard times that we are discussing here though. By your logic, we shouldn't have counseling, for example, because people can get over shit on their own. It's really not easy to make good decisions in times like I described to you.

Hookbender — Mar 15, 2012[quote author=charger link=1330830897/25#44 date=1331765223]I'm just sayin'--the message of the Bible is not in any way simple, and there is no set of rules that it espouses... people say this a lot, that the Bible gives us rules to live by.  

Really?  It gives us rules like, if a woman is raped, then everyone should rape her, if a person commits adultery, they should be killed.  

I "think" the message of the New Testament is "love one another and take care of one another".  But that's my interpretation.  There are probably a hundred ridiculous things in the New Testament that would disturb the crap out of me.  The message in there is not unified.  For one thing, some of the people who wrote it were clearly writing their ideas and putting them in the mouth of Jesus. For another, some of them probably never even met Jesus.  And then, there's fucking Revelations, with giant whores riding on dragons and humanity being laid waste.  

It's an insane document to live by.  

You are a human, with free will, and you can always choose to just live well and do right for yourself, not because it's in a book somewhere.  Seriously.

Not a bad idea to kill someone who commits adultery, really. The result of adultery is pretty damn bad when kids are involved.

Look, the decision of whether or not to live well is not in question here. Of course people can easily live well and do the right thing in good times. It's the hard times that we are discussing here though. By your logic, we shouldn't have counseling, for example, because people can get over shit on their own. It's really not easy to make good decisions in times like I described to you.

Counceling is good.  He's not saying what you are trying to make him say.

People need to be more responsible in general for their actions and take ownership of what they do and how it affects others.  

Though the bible certainly has some good stuff in it.....it's not the be all end all.  There are tons of better books out there that help people with the hard times stuff more effectively.

I think charger is just saying that you could do better than the bible for self help.  If he's not.....then I'm saying it! Hehehehehe

Probably so. ;D ;D Sometimes when I post down here in Religion or Politics, I forget what the results will probably be.......until someone responds. ;D ;D