26 posts
I did a pretty extensive shootout of these pedals side by side last night. Clips are coming, for some reason they didn't make it from the studio computer to the USB flash drive. Anyway, I'll start it out with some pics...
Both pedals...
Bogner switch settings...
These are the standard knob settings for all clips with both pedals, too, unless otherwise specified. Gain full, all EQ straight up. I set the volume on the Bogner pedal slightly lower than the 7th heaven, it's louder. Also for the Bogner boost clip I set the boost at 0 volume and max gain.
Mid cut settings for the mid-cut clip... I set the Bogner Red pedal the same way... only difference is this has a presence knob and the Bogner Red doesn't, so I set the presence at halfway. Knobs on the Seventh Heaven clone are, left to right, Gain, Bass, Mid, Treble, Presence. Volume is the one under Gain. Far right switch is "structure" which switches between the Blue channel structure and the Red channel structure. Switch to the left of that is an input cap switch I added which doesn't do a whole lot... I'm already thinking of a replacement for that. Right footswitch is effect on, left footswitch is boost.
Mic setup. That's a ribbon mic about two inches off the grill of the Tweaker. We put a piece of fabric on the back to minimize rear reflections. Preamp was a Seventh Circle C84.
Clips should be up tonight.
here's the circuit of the seventh heaven. Can't show you the bogner pedal circuit as it is encased in black epoxy... however, this circuit is identical to the Bogner Ecstasy amp, except for adjustments for voltage and current.
Here's a gut shot. I still have to tie the wires up with wraps. I've started setting my circuits upside down and using standoffs to keep the board from grounding on the case because with switches and stuff, it just fits better.
http://www.chargermusic.com/audio/bogpedals/
I have a bunch more clips of various things but unfortunately stopped labeling at some point, so though I can tell the pedals apart, I can't tell what I'm featuring. But this should give you a pretty good idea.
setting a new standard for gear demo clips... with pics!
I was surprised by the gain on both pedals - not as much as I anticipated - not that much more than the blue's gain. red sounds generally more compressed but spongier (except when the 7th has the bass knob up - that sounded a bit spongy) - both sound good to me. I don't really like the boost function on either (or on the blue... or the FD2) so I'm coming to the opinion that I just don't like what boost circuits do to the sound, generally. I can get them to sound cool when they're engaged but, set that way, the un-boosted tone is bland.
also was expecting the treble-knob-all-the-way-up on the red to be much worse than that! not a great tone that way for sure (I was nervous clicking the link to that one! hah) but not so horrible either. 7th definitely sounded better in that config.
Comments: I need another listen with headphones (at work now) before I make more critical comments. First thing, Sheep, it does have more gain. A LOT more gain, with the bridge humbuckers I use with it 80% of the time. Remember this is not only single coils for this demo, but it's the 2 position!
Next, without yet having a more accurate listening chain. All the comparisons are nice, but since you said the tone stacks were different, what might indicate that the best would be actually sweeping through each one compared to the other.
Charger, lets face it. It's time for you to get out the video cam and be the next gear demo star. :)
This is a tough pedal to demo, especially to compare to another pedal, because it has so many controls. I do also, as Charger does, find some of the controls to be interesting voicing choices. For example, the gain comes on immediately on the dial, and the progression of gain is SLOW from there on up. Not a ton of difference between 12:00 and dimed, for example. The treble, as Charger has mentioned is voiced higher than usual, so it doesn't make things notably brighter when you turn it up a little.
Re: The boost switches. First, this is not how I ever use mine. Second, I'm kind of with you on this Sheep. It's a "chosen" voice, rather than just a volume/gain boost. This to me is unusual. The boost on my Red definitely boosts the lows and low mids. When you are using it (as I would/will) for a solo boost, you don't necessarily even WANT more lows and low mids. I'd rather have flat or fat. I am finding a whole range of solo tones using other pedals instead of the boost. Still, I like the boost, just don't love it. The Barber Gain Changer in LTD mode, and the Jetter Red Shift both sound incredible as solo boosts with the Red. So does the Timmy, SHO clone, and even the Plimsoul with the gain down. One thing hit me at I look for a more aggressive, Uber-type tone... I haven't tried the OCD with it yet. Need to do that!
Charger, if you are taking requests do a clip with a bridge HB and run it through a few times sweeping knobs.
Yeah, I was surprised by the Bogner pedal with full treble too... listening from the control room I thought it was brighter, but I think the combination of the Tweaker and the ribbon mic tamed the highs somewhat. It's more the area where the controls are centered and the range they affect that is of interest to me.
Remember, too, this is a moderate-gain strat, using bridge-middle pickup combo, and i play with my fingers... with humbuckers and digging in with a pick they can be more gainy. But, they are not ultra high gain pedals.
DTR, I use a strat with the blue and the gain isn't that different - surprising. that's all I meant.
Well, here are my takeaways.
The ecstasy tone stack (as replicated in the 7th heaven) is more subtle and moderate. Right down to the values of resistors, caps, and pots, the Bogner XTC uses the Marshall tone stack from the JTM45 that has been essentially unchanged for 40 years, with an added presence control. Even with the presence and treble maxed this pedal does not get bright, it's pretty dark. The Bogner Red tone stack is different... I'm not sure how, but it's definitely different, and it can get harsh.
I like the boost on the seventh heaven... it allows the pedal to cover a range from barely distorted to pretty over-the top. On the Red, I don't like the EQ changes included in the boost circuit... too muddy. However there's a pretty wide range of switches and stuff on the Red... for example, the Variac tone is overall better--didn't demo this because there was no equivalent. It changes the way the distortion hits... If I had to guess I'd say it drops in a resistor before the first gain stage to reduce overall gain, and adds a cap in parallel.
If you a range of low and high gain and a very multipurpose sound, the seventh heaven is a total killer. If you want really flexible medium to high gain, the Bogner is the way to go. Now the other issue is cost... the Seventh Heaven is no cheaper... building it myself cost me $50 + time. But it's a $299 pedal also. So for that price, the Bogner is almost worth it for build quality alone... nice parts, made in the US, really nice case. But I can build a Seventh Heaven and I can't build a Bogner...
Very interesting. I still theorize the different stack used in the Bog pedals is to give them more flexibility to cover the different amps they could be used with. That doesn't really explain why the Uber is so dark but that's another deal in itself. It's pretty cool you can build that pedal charger, I hear a lot of usable sounds in both of them. It probably boils down to which matches up best with the amp being used. And of course the 7th covers a lower gain range.
Good observation on the boost in the bog pedals, sheep - it can make the pedal sound good but at the cost of the non boost mode sounding kind of flaccid.
Here's the finished pedal... well, almost finished... just need to sand off those little notches on the switch washers...
I went back and forth between blue knobs, then white, then black, then I tried cream. I think white looks best but I'm still not sold. But yeah, the powdercoat came out pretty good!
nice paint!
$.02: dark maroon (or purple... but definitely dark) knobs... or knurled chrome (or nickel) barrels would be awesome.
best part is, it's not paint!
Here's a clip I just tossed off, with my Yamaha Pacifica... it's got a BG-Pups single coil I used for the neck rhythm part and first half of the lead, and a Duncan Custom Custom I used for the dirty rhythm and second half of the lead. Volume knob too... first half of rhythm is on the clean channel, second on distorted, lead uses the boost and the gain backed off a little. This is direct through an amp sim called Quarter and recabinet.
http://www.chargermusic.com/audio/bogpedals/mp3/7th_clean_dirty_lead.mp3
Here's some more... all used the same amp model, quarter, and recabinet. 7th heaven for all gain. Same guitar, I think I used the neck pickup the whole time, and switched from one channel on the pedal to the other mid-solo.
http://www.chargermusic.com/audio/bogpedals/mp3/more_7th.mp3
lower gain sounds cool... but gained up, sounds kinda odd (second clip). something happening to the upper mids... sounds a bit like an overdriven small speaker blended in? something like that. might be due to high gain, single coil, neck pickup chords.
nice clips!
Yeah, I just couldn't get that rhythm part to sound right. Neck pickup is for the lead and the clean rhythm only... the more heavy rhythm is the bridge pickup, which is a pretty midrange-heavy pickup. I couldn't get it to cut without it being too bright and I couldn't find the right spot in the mids--keep in mind I was not using any EQ, just changing cabinets and adjusting the amp model...
Hey Charger,
Could you share the schematic on that? I have a buddy wanting to build that, but is having trouble finding the schematic. Thanks! :)
Sure thing. No PCBs for this but it's not a terribly difficult circuit.
No need to use silver mica for any of those low value caps, ceramic works fine. You can lower the value on all the 470uf bypass caps... they are probably not even necessary as the Miller effect for a JFET is negligible compared to a tube... none of the resistors need to be carbon film... Multi-turn trimmers are not a bad idea as the JFET biasing is very touchy..
