83 posts
mu·sic noun, often attributive \myü-zik\
: sounds that are sung by voices or played on musical instruments
: written or printed symbols showing how music should be played or sung
: the art or skill of creating or performing music
Dubstep musicians, for example, definitely create and perform music. Without any real instruments. Your friend who created the music from loops etc-- if people react to it as music, how is that person not a musican? Your logic is truly incomprehensible for me.
DreamTheaterRules — Apr 22, 2014Sheep, I'm just going to say this. If we resurrect our annual BertStock and after all this time, you finally agree to come, and you show up with nothing to play but a laptop, some guys are going to be VERY disappointed! ;D
I think that would be about as awesome a move as sheep could make, personally.
DreamTheaterRules — Apr 22, 2014If you can't sing, you aren't a singer. Oh wait. The consensus here sounds like that if you take computer generated voice noises and make them into a song, you are a singer!
nice try Hook. Has NOTHING to do with what I said, as anything can be used as a percussive INSTRUMENT and many crude primative forms of other instruments can be used. But those are instruments and thus do not qualify for my argument. And don't try to twist what I said. I didn't say that someone could't play a guitar riff or drum pattern, save it and use it to create a song. I didn't say a guitar player or pianist couldn't use a drum program to create songs. Etc. i said that anyone who can't play any instrument is not a musician, and that anything created completely by a computer and without the playing of an instrument, is not music.
If you guys think otherwise, that is certainly your perogative. Explains why so many of you like (C)rap! ;D
Look in any Guitar Center and see if they sell trash can lids, cups and shit. ;D
A cup isn't a instrument. Yet I've heard it used to make music. If Charger writes a song and he and band members record it and I watch because I can't play an instrument, I'm probably a fan. If Charger plays the song back and decided that if I fart into a microphone every 37 seconds, it would sound good and add to the music, then I suddenly become a musician because now I can play my anus.
" i said that anyone who can't play any instrument is not a musician, and that anything created completely by a computer and without the playing of an instrument, is not music. "
But you can't define what is and isn't a instrument, how the hell are you gonna decide what is and isn't music? For everyone?????
Your trying to make rules and regulations, based on your thoughts alone, for everyone else.... a republican traight .... God like action ....
Music is a democratic process, not a republican process. It's liberal, not conservative. I don't know of any rules for, or rule book for music. Music is evolving. One can't progress if rules restrict experiment. Which means, taking a few chances.
Clapping your hands.... in shitloads of songs, or use to be, hands suddenly become a instrument in a particular song. But they aren't a instrument.
I think your wrong. I think that your thoughts on this subject are contained in a matchbox. I don't think I've ever heard that kind of restrictive, unimaginative, thoughts come from a musician.
But I love you. I'll cut your grass Thurs. Later dude. ;D ;D
Stop and think about what your saying in your mind. Then run with it. Run some more. After 2 weeks of thoughts, tell me if you feel the same.
I've heard tap dancers "play" a "song" with their "SHOES", while DANCING. Tap Dancing. That would be a confusing statement if I thought like you are. ;D
Let's all just remember that this all started with my ongoing JOKING with Craig about what music we like.
However, I think people should look for the good in every situation, and I have found the good in this conversation. After all this time, we finally figured out an instrument that Hook can play. We might not want to be present when he plays it, nor would we necessarily want clips. But he's finally found something he can play! While we're on that topic, Hook, you might want to contact Fenderbender. His wife works for Fruit Of The Loom so maybe you can stock up on underwear before you begin your musical career. And God help us all, if you don't change your underwear more than we change our strings!
So you're joking when you say that some of the music we like isn't actually music? That some of the musicians we like aren't musicians?
I guess I just am not getting the joke.
By the way, before the DTR chorus jumps back in to tell me what an asshole I am again, for picking so unfairly on DTR, please really read what he's saying in this thread. It's possibly the most flabbergasting thing I've ever read regarding a theory of music and musicianship. I'm also starting to wonder what the hell makes a rapper less of a musician than any other type of singer. I doubt I even really want to know the answer to that.
Don't disturb his "joke" Charger. He just thinks it's amusing that I like lots of MUSIC that isn't on the list that The Gear Page tells him he should like. ;)
I'm not understanding the adherence to webster.
and... even if I were to accept webster's bullshit definition, how the hell is a computer not a musical instrument that one plays? what is a synthesizer if not a computer? is a theremin a musical instrument? you don't even touch that to get noise out of it... what about jim morrison's spoken word stuff? not music?
shouldn't a definition of music be something like "sounds and/or silence arranged in a time sequence"? I think so. a definition must cover everything - it's the abstract description of a phenomenon. what use is a subjective definition? would a definition of grass that includes "it's green" be a good definition? no!
is eddie kramer a musician? I would say so since he "arranged sounds and silence in a time sequence" = musician.
are even birds musicians, then? fuck yes they are! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrB9GxFHqZ0
but sheep, you say, doesn't this devalue the terms "music" and "musician" if they are so freely thrown around? YES!! devalue that bullshit! listen for yourself and see if something moves you ffs - if it does, great! if not, listen to something else. but always strive to foster an environment where new music production and innovation is maximized through acceptance of wierdness -- pinning labels and badges on things runs counter to that - it scares people off and we're all the poorer for it.
the bottom line here for me is that the whole concept of conferring status in music by either granting or withholding a title or whatever is just bullshit. I don't want some damn committee deciding what music is and I don't want some union dubbing someone a musician. even if that doomsday scenario was going on, I'd still ignore them because... fuck that - make music! everyone has it in them, let it out! and don't get in people's way with bullshit status and prestige garbage.
charger — Apr 23, 2014So you're joking when you say that some of the music we like isn't actually music? That some of the musicians we like aren't musicians?
I guess I just am not getting the joke.
By the way, before the DTR chorus jumps back in to tell me what an asshole I am again, for picking so unfairly on DTR, please really read what he's saying in this thread. It's possibly the most flabbergasting thing I've ever read regarding a theory of music and musicianship. I'm also starting to wonder what the hell makes a rapper less of a musician than any other type of singer. I doubt I even really want to know the answer to that.
I guess that's me. Nice that I have such a nice label. Makes me realize you've probably not gotten my point before, but no biggie...
I don't see anything needing a referee here :)
ironsheep — Apr 23, 2014
the bottom line here for me is that the whole concept of conferring status in music by either granting or withholding a title or whatever is just bullshit. I don't want some damn committee deciding what music is and I don't want some union dubbing someone a musician. even if that doomsday scenario was going on, I'd still ignore them because... fuck that - make music! everyone has it in them, let it out! and don't get in people's way with bullshit status and prestige garbage.
+1
The only reason I can see a point in this stratification is so "we" can belong to a club, and others can not belong to it.
Yeah, I don't see any need for a ref, but this has gotten suddenly out of hand for what started as Craig and I's long running back and forth joking with each other about the other's musical tastes.
yet again, I start something lighthearted, joking with one guy and it gets out of hand. (let me rephrase the "I started" part, as Craig has made multiple comments about my musical tastes in the last two weeks and I said something back. And AFAIK, we're both smiling every time we jab each other about musical tastes. It's not an argument or anything like that. What I said back to him was only as part of the back and forth he and I have had running for several years now and is all, in my mind anyway, in fun. Craig, if you are really being mean and insulting me all those times, please let me know so I can get ticked at you. ;D) And, Craig and I have been jabbing each other long enough about musical tastes, that nobody can pretend not to KNOW that.
So Charger, don't have a clue why you got on that "DTR chorus" thing but, this was never intended to get serious and until you did that, you weren't being an asshole as far as I know. LOL
That said, I have always said that perception is 90% of reality. And perceptions have changed. Clearly here they have. If you think a rapper is a singer, I disagree with you. No need to get hostile about it, but I disagree. UNTIL that guy sings and I hear that he can sing. Then I would say he's a rapper and a singer. Before that, he's not singing IMO. If so, then talking is singing and everyone who can talk is a singer. IMO, Sheep, there has to be a line SOMEWHERE. Where is the line? IMO, same goes for "musician." The dictionary defines that as someone who can play an instrument or sing. Someone who can't do either may be an "entertainer" or several other things, but IMO and according to WEBSTER, they aren't a musician.
And that is where I take issue. We can discuss this for as long as you want (not really, as I'm done, but in theory) but I see no need for the tempers flaring. I'm OK with "well that's what the dictionary says, but that has changed and needs to be expanded" etc. as they is stated as opinion and not hostile. I know exactly what Sheep is saying and realize how "perceptions" have changed in that regard. But Charger, why the hostility??? I quote the damn dictionary, and I'm still not only wrong, but wrong enough to offend you and make you hostile???? WTF???
I told Sheep earlier that this was a "buddies at a bar" discussion. No anger, not offended, we disagree as gentlemen, etc. One of these freaking days, I'll realize that is not the case here. I realize also that I say this every time a squabble happens, don't I? ::)
Actually Howie, defining what makes a musician or a singer can be up to debate. That certainly wasn't what I was pointing out. You simply chose to state that a lot of things that most definitely ARE "music" were not music. A very big note here is that you did NOT say "In my opinion" and that's why you are receiving the flak that you are.
When you prefer a relatively narrow section of music then assert that anything you don't like isn't music, well, there you go! This isn't any different than when Randy tried to claim that Siouxie and the Banshees weren't music (even though they were bigger world-wide than any Southern Rock band).
I pretty much like everything you like, except I also happen to like many other genres that you claim not to (and I'm willing to bet some are simply due to lack of exposure). I don't need to follow the in-crowd and only support what the others say is cool. If I like it, then I listen to it and, if I don't, then I'm free to not listen to it.
You made an excellent thread for everyone to know what everyone else was listening to (I've seen one on every forum I go to and yours was better than most), but it's becoming apparent that the thread was only made to promote what you like when it should be for exploring music you haven't heard. I've definitely discovered some excellent stuff that I wouldn't have otherwise from posts by Charger, DM and others.
If you don't like something, then take Jon's approach and say that you don't. That's perfectly acceptable. Saying that there's either something wrong with Jon, or that people that like things you don't are wrong is only going to paint a target on you again. :)
If you think a rapper is a singer, I disagree with you.
...
If so, then talking is singing and everyone who can talk is a singer.
Uhhh... Here's a relevant question. Have you actually ever listened to any rap?
And you missed some bits of your Webster-fest:
Music
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity
b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/music?show=0&t=1398286009
Seems like that definition covers far more than you are saying it does?
Craig,
First, I like for more music than you think I do. That's why this has always been amusing to me. I do not own any CD's by these groups, but I think groups like The Carpenters, Bread, Earth Wind and Fire, the Commodores (SP?) etc is great and beautiful music. I am absolute MOVED by some Todd Rundgren (as you are well aware) that is very "pop" and not metal or prog at all. And I'm not even remotely sure why you say I listen to what others think is cool.
Second, I've tried to tell you several times that I was listening to ALMOST everything that anyone posted in my thread. Some of it I didn't get very far, but I never bailed on any of it before at least 4-5 songs. So again, not sure where you are getting that it was just to promote what I like. If nothing else is posted there for days, what I'm listening to at work is something I HAVE on my computer. I don't have time to go searching for stuff at work. I have mentioned before, several times, that I was listening to what other people posted. I DID say a couple times "not my cup of tea I only made it half way" or such. Geez, Genesis is one of my all time favorite groups and I listened to a LONG Genesis link that reminded me why years ago I never bought that album. It was cool to hear it for the first time in 30 years, and now I"m good for another 30. LOL But again, I listened to almost every single album listed in that thread.
And yeah, my "I can't believe you listen to that, it's not even music" comments were a reply to YOU. Tell me, where you offended??? How many times in the last 2 weeks alone have you jabbed me about my musical preferences? Which clearly, you have a limited view of, as I thought most of your comments were in jest as were mine. Again the old "buddies in a bar conversation." How could I think your comments were serious when you keep saying I never listen to others stuff when I keep saying I listened to all of it, etc? I thought you were clowning around and so was I.
So if this place is a bar, it's not exactly Cheers. More like a biker bar. And my nice clothes are getting dirty. ;D
And the beer sucks. must be budweiser... :P
Thanks Recto!
I had forgotten that the lead character in this movie was also Wudy da Wabbit in the classic Meatballs!
DTR chorus? -
DreamTheaterRules — Apr 23, 2014Thanks Recto!
I don't see how you're taking this as hostility against you personally.
I sure am hostile to the ideas you've expressed in this thread but are you not more than these few ideas?
I'm trying to persuade you to open your mind a bit and expand your view... see things from a different perspective. apparently, you don't like that so I won't bother anymore.
but don't take my silence to be acceptance of your bullshit views!! ;)
sheep I think you have better odds of that than charger does of getting Howie to listen to rap... :D
ah nice! I infer nice kid who get's picked on by the bullies, you infer woman! NICE! >:( (She is a hot one though)
Sheep, I wasn't taking yours as hostility, as we've already discussed it. I took Charger's "DTR Chorus" as hostility before Paul showed me that Charger was actually referring to a pedal. ;D But, bull$hit views could be taken as hostile. Unless of course you have a pedal named that. ;D ;D
I know, that's not funny either. I'll quit.
I think I should get one of these http://www.ehx.com/products/rtg ... paint "bullshit views" on it.
DreamTheaterRules — Apr 23, 2014ah nice! I infer nice kid who get's picked on by the bullies, you infer woman! NICE! >:( (She is a hot one though)
Sheep, I wasn't taking yours as hostility, as we've already discussed it. I took Charger's "DTR Chorus" as hostility before Paul showed me that Charger was actually referring to a pedal. ;D But, bull$hit views could be taken as hostile. Unless of course you have a pedal named that. ;D ;D
I know, that's not funny either. I'll quit.
One more time, still wondering how your thesis fits with the definition from the source you used to originally prove said thesis:
Music
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity
b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/music?show=0&t=1398286009
Webster was working for me until that "unity and continuity" bullshit!! lol! fy Webster!
"That said, I have always said that perception is 90% of reality. And perceptions have changed. Clearly here they have. If you think a rapper is a singer, I disagree with you. No need to get hostile about it, but I disagree. UNTIL that guy sings and I hear that he can sing. Then I would say he's a rapper and a singer. Before that, he's not singing IMO. If so, then talking is singing and everyone who can talk is a singer. IMO, Sheep, there has to be a line SOMEWHERE. Where is the line? IMO, same goes for "musician." The dictionary defines that as someone who can play an instrument or sing. Someone who can't do either may be an "entertainer" or several other things, but IMO and according to WEBSTER, they aren't a musician. "
"And that is where I take issue. We can discuss this for as long as you want (not really, as I'm done, but in theory) but I see no need for the tempers flaring. "
First, I don't see hostile in any post by Charger or anyone else. Nor have I noticed someone getting mad. Hell, just engage in the conversation, or not, and enjoy. You should understand that during a debate, and sometimes just a conversation, things get heated. Charger and I have gone at each other just about the entire time I've been here. However, I'd love to sit down and listen to him jam, talk a bit, drink a few beer or whatever, 8-), and hang out a while. It's not personal. It's not like he'd come to the "get together", find me, and start a argument while other folks are playing music and stuff.
Enough drama. Shit.... Hell I thought Charger was being reserved in his response you mentioned.
You keep doing the same thing over and over. You try to define what music is by the music you like or don't like. I dare you to go tell a successful rap music singer his music sucks and he can't sing. If the "rapper" is the lead vocalist, then in general terms, he's the lead singer of his band. And again, your wrong. Your logic is flawed to hell and back. What your saying doesn't make sense. And surely you know that "singers" sometimes do talk in a song. It's part of the body of the song, lyrics. So, talking could be considered singing in that context.
And there doesn't have to be a line anywhere. The last thing in the world I would ever wish for is to restrict music in any way period. Thats what you seem to be doing. But, most musicians would not agree with your theory. You might as well say that DTR, the band, defines what music is. If it isn't like their music, it isn't music and the vocalist can't sing. Now thats stretching it some, but thats the same logic your using.
And.... I take offense to the subjective comment about the possibility of blow by messing up my underwear. Although it does kinda chap me that Charger puts 4 microphone screens in front of the mic I use, I don't see the need for you to be all mean mouthed with me.
Maybe we should change the name from Bertcave, to Powder Puff. ;D ;D
Nice weather we're having :)
Jon — Apr 24, 2014Nice weather we're having :)
Just remember, this whole thread got started........
Now your gettin hostile.......
I don't think your an asshole though.
I should know better than to say.......
;D ;D ;D
Pretty much sums up the conversation. In fact, this is pretty much everything DTR said. ;D
Er.....um....my post wasn't about Def Leppard or anybody else being the best band or concert. It was about how Def Leppard was actually able to re-create a VERY produced album LIVE.
Whether you like them or not, you have to admit they pulled the 'live' show off pretty damned good.
That is all I was going for. How close can a band sound live VS their album. And as produced as the Hysteria album was, I am amazed that they were able to replicate that sound live.
Er.....um....my post wasn't about Def Leppard or anybody else being the best band or concert
Well, I'll admit I was confused with a Thread Title like:
My Pick - Best Concert Ever
Foreigner comes to mind as one of the best to recreate the album sound IMO. I saw them a few times early on and always thought they were a superb live act and true to their records.
Staind is excellent and Seether as well.
