The Watering Hole

Haha, yeah... Amazing how he could play golf so much with no money...

KrankZilla — Jun 29, 2009

Let me pose this to all that think Michael is/was guilty.  If it really happened to your kid, would you settle?  No freaking way in hell I would...

That is an extremely good point and I would say that 99.9% of people would be of the same opinion, I certainly am.

I can't get my head around how a parent would let their child, or even encourage their child to stay with a complete stranger...even more so because they don't come much stranger than Michael Jackson.  I don't subscribe to all this bullshit about how he is "like a child himself" and has an affinity with children and all this crap.  He was a grown man for christ's sake who liked to hang out with young children....that is not normal in anyone's book of rules.....is it ?   He is/was supposedly a father himself, so he must have known how this sort of behaviour would end up.  Would he have let his children sleep over in a strangers bedroom etc????  Fucking weird shit.

I would also add that generally there is definitely no smoke without fire.

KrankZilla — Jun 29, 2009Haha, yeah... Amazing how he could play golf so much with no money...

Hey bro, selling autographs is a good business! :D

cgtrox  8-)

Jon — Jun 29, 2009I can't get my head around how a parent would let their child, or even encourage their child to stay with a complete stranger...even more so because they don't come much stranger than Michael Jackson.

It's called a multi-million dollar lawsuit.  ;) Stranger things have happened...

cgtrox  8-)

However, putting aside my thoughts on his pedo activities, as a musician and dancer he was top-notch.

Jon — Jun 29, 2009

I can't get my head around how a parent would let their child, or even encourage their child to stay with a complete stranger...even more so because they don't come much stranger than Michael Jackson.

+infinity on that one...

Because they, like you, thought he was misunderstood, their kids loved him, he had fucking giraffes walking around the yard, and none of them really believed that he would want to play doctor with their kids?

Like who?

KrankZilla — Jun 29, 2009Like who?

ANY parent who would allow their children to stay at a strangers house overnight, ANY stranger, celebrity or not, he is still a stranger, should say something about the parent. Like maybe they are planning something??

cgtrox  8-)  

The — Jun 29, 2009
yeah howie because every grown man gives a 12 year old wine and has them sleep in the same bed.. hmmm.

On that note, it was also proven he had security cams in his house (not unusal, many with $ have that) but instead of just the perimeter of the home, he also had them outside his main bedroom and trained on all the surrounding hallways with the monitors in his bedroom ala Scarface - he could always see when someone/the help was approaching his bedroom. Weird for someone so loved/admired? Wrong? Help prove his guilt of misbehavin'? Maybe, maybe not, I personally like to file that under "most likely it is what I think it is" when you factor in all the other things as well. That list is short for me, its where I put things that never quite get FULLY proven for whatever reason, but most signs suggest that something happened a particular way, more likely than the other anyway, like evolution, OJ killing those people, baseball players taking roids, never was WMD, etc.

I thought he was a great talent in his day, but mostly in his youth, when he sang more and danced a little less. As he aged, he seemed to dance more than he sang, made more percussive grunts and falsetto whines vs singing, etc. As a person though, sorry, no thanks, too friggin' odd. From the cheesy altering surgeries, refusing to grow up and surrounding himself with mostly little boys, paying them off to drop cases, the baby dangling over the street, etc...something just screams "unlikeable" about him to me personally, would never associate with someone like that, think the only reason many did/defend it is because of the fame. You take that away from him and make him a common man and somewhere along the line, some parent woulda prolly beat the shit outta him when their child mentioned stuff that went on.

cgtrox — Jun 29, 2009 The point I was making is that O.J. did everything that you say an innocent guy should do, hire the best attorney, spend all of his money fighting the charges, etc.

Step away from the crack pipe man, it's not good for you!  ;)

Do you actually know much about the case?  Did you watch the trial?  We did.  The prosecuting attourneys made many mistakes, the whole trial became a joke (more like a bad "reality" TV series), evidence collection was botched and there was definite racial reasons for his verdict.

Innocent guys never try to clean the blood off themselves, are suicidal, kidnap their friends at gunpoint and take law enforcement on a long car chase.  They also don't tell their friends that "they didn't mean to do it" and, later, brag about how they got away with it.

If you look at the evidence and the trial without the bullshit Hollywood theatrics you simply can't say he's innocent (unless you're racially motivated with an agenda).

As for not having any money, there were certain things that were excluded from being seized (I believe his NFL pension was one of them).  He also hid many of his valuables and sold them on the side for money (this was proven at his latest trial where they finally put him in jail).

Kabala — Jun 29, 2009On that note, it was also proven he had security cams in his house (not unusal, many with $ have that) but instead of just the perimeter of the home, he also had them outside his main bedroom and trained on all the surrounding hallways with the monitors in his bedroom ala Scarface - he could always see when someone/the help was approaching his bedroom.

I used to work for an insurance company and the main boss was like that. In his main office, atop the 6th floor of an affluent downtown business district, he had a similar setup. He could eyeball the parking lot, the main lobby, his main entrance, claims dept., etc. He also had a similar setup in his mansion. I guess when you get that powerful, there's a tendency for paranoia? Of course, he had like three mistresses within the company on top of his marriage.  ;)

cgtrox  8-)    

CraigBert — Jun 29, 2009Do you actually know much about the case?  Did you watch the trial? We did. The prosecuting attourneys made many mistakes, the whole trial became a joke (more like a bad "reality" TV series), evidence collection was botched and there was definite racial reasons for his verdict.

Once I found out the Keystone cops running the initial investigation contaminated the entire crime scene, much less the evidence, I never took it seriously. If YOU did, then maybe it is you who needs to step away from the crackpipe!  :D

Of course, the judge and prosecution followed suit by getting Hollywood makeovers and just plain ol' grandstanding, that trial NEVER had a chance...

cgtrox  8-)


p.s. I did like the Seinfeld rendition though, "Poor little Pinkus..."  ;D

Let me ask this question to the one's who think OJ and MJ are innocent.

Would you let your young child stay at MJ's home overnight 1 week ago? Would you let your child stay with any adult who gave alcohol to young kids?

And, would you let your adult daughter date Oj?

;D

MJ was effectively insane.

That warped child like obsession could be a pointer to being guilty.

It is also possible that he innocent as that same mental illness made him vulnerable to exploitation.

If he is guilty then a lot of people will have had to been covering up for him.
Including his management.

We will probably never know, but if it does come out, it could be down to whistleblowing now.
The gravy train is over for a lot of the hanger ons.

Party over, so expect some noise as it breaks up over the next 6 months.

Money grabs and accusations.

I think one of the strangest things not mentioned here is how human beings become so entranced over another human being. I mean, goddamn, the man made some decent music....it's not that big a deal. He isn't like a damn God or something. Him, Elvis....their just flawed human beings like the rest of us. Why the fuck make such a damn fuss over these drug taking fuckers? Their just another human being. Shit.

When I'm at a concert and I see guys and girls screaming and crying over some fucker that sings well it just makes me want to vomit. I bet they don't do that over the damn good parents they have that sent them to the concert and paid for it.

Women don't do that to me damn it. Or guys for that matter. Fuckers. ;D ;D ;D

Ahhh hell. Yeah. I'm drinkin a beer. Having a little fun. ;D

Excuse me. ;D

I have no doubt that OJ was/is guilty.  With MJ, it's not as clear cut to me - Noel pretty much summed it up.  He could be guilty, he might not be.  Such a unique/bizarre/insert whatever extreme adjective you want personality, we really don't have a model of him to compare to.   We will likely never know for sure.  I'd like to believe he wasn't, but I just don't know.   I do know that his father is a massive ass wad, and that can mess up a kid big time.

As for your questions Hook, even if I *knew* (had it physically proven without any sort of doubt) that MJ was innocent, I wouldn't let my kids stay at his house.  Nor anybody elses that I didn't know very well.

If my daughter wanted to date OJ, I'd have her committed to mental institution...  After they admitted me of course...  :D  

I agree!

My daughter is almost 3 now. She has never spent one night away from me and my wife. Either I was there or she was there with her everyday of her life. Not even a in law over nighter. And no day care at all. Yep, me and the wife are raising this girl! ;) I'm proud of that but it sure is a sacrifice. I guess it comes with having kids.

Hookbender — Jun 29, 2009He isn't like a damn God or something. Him, Elvis....their just flawed human beings like the rest of us. Why the fuck make such a damn fuss over these drug taking fuckers? Their just another human being. Shit.

One of the way too many specials covering this story (think it was Geraldo, don't ask why I was watching, been sick in bed for several days, I was cornered, was everywhere, lol) touched on this - maybe its us, maybe its the "star" as well. They said that MJ had a "Messiah complex" to an extent, that it was clear 'to them', at least publicly, that he was trying to be all things to all people - male/feminine, adult/child, black/white, sensitive/tough, etc. Maybe he achieved that in some way and many of the more zanny followers thought he was a god of sorts. Of course I did hear his brother say "Allah be with you" at the first announcement of his passing, so he couldn't have really been (unless nobody filled Jermaine in ;)).

I agree though, people have always acted kooky over the "ultra celebs."

You know, I like to listen to the older Elvis, especially watch his performance. He had a great voice. It was unbelievable. I honestly think he was the most talented man to ever live, vocally.

Mj...other than the Thriller deal and all that...who cares about him?

They are just people.

Hookbender — Jun 29, 2009Let me ask this question to the one's who think OJ and MJ are innocent.

Would you let your young child stay at MJ's home overnight 1 week ago? Would you let your child stay with any adult who gave alcohol to young kids?

And, would you let your adult daughter date Oj?

;D

First off, I think O.J. was guilty as hell! I mean EVERYTHING he did afterward pointed to it. He just had a brilliant legal team that made the LAPD and county prosecution look like a bunch of fumbling idiots, took all the right loopholes and won. We have a legal system that for the most part works, it's not perfect, but it works. Sadly, some of the bad people benefit from that flaw.

As far as MJ goes, I'm still on the fence (80/20) more towards the innocent side, but still on the fence. It's his eccentric side that worries me. I mean the guy was 12 years old and being handed monthly checks for $250K!! Can you imagine the monthly checks he was getting by the time Thriller was hitting??

"With great power, comes great responsibility."

Unfortunately, MJ's life was lacking a lot of the responsibilty side. That kind of money is just "stupid" money! I mean what what you do with $10-20M a month??? Hence his eccentricities in his life, a lot like Elvis.

For the record, I would NOT let my kids stay at ANYONES house that I do not know, celebrity or not. That is why I keep pointing to the PARENTS of these kids. They either had malicious agendas or they are just plain stupid!

I would let my daughter date AND marry the ROOKIE O.J. but not what he became.

cgtrox  8-)

cgtrox — Jun 29, 2009 The point I was making is that O.J. did everything that you say an innocent guy should do, hire the best attorney, spend all of his money fighting the charges, etc.

cgtrox — Jun 30, 2009 First off, I think O.J. was guilty as hell! I mean EVERYTHING he did afterward pointed to it.

cgtrox  8-)

:-?

Hookbender — Jun 29, 2009I think one of the strangest things not mentioned here is how human beings become so entranced over another human being. I mean, goddamn, the man made some decent music....it's not that big a deal. He isn't like a damn God or something. Him, Elvis....their just flawed human beings like the rest of us. Why the fuck make such a damn fuss over these drug taking fuckers? Their just another human being. Shit.

When I'm at a concert and I see guys and girls screaming and crying over some fucker that sings well it just makes me want to vomit. I bet they don't do that over the damn good parents they have that sent them to the concert and paid for it.

Women don't do that to me damn it. Or guys for that matter. Fuckers. ;D ;D ;D

Ahhh hell. Yeah. I'm drinkin a beer. Having a little fun. ;D

Excuse me. ;D

Some people are people worshipers, I don't get it either. Those stars don't mean shit to me. I enjoy what they do, but that is appreciating craftsmanship, not worshiping those devils.

desertbluesman — Jun 30, 2009Some people are people worshipers, I don't get it either. Those stars don't mean shit to me. I enjoy what they do, but that is appreciating craftsmanship, not worshiping those devils.

Same here man. When I would see these people shopping, putting gas or at a restaurant, I would do a double take, but that was about it. I remember once flying out of LAX and spotting Blackie Lawless trying but failing miserably to be incognito. He was in a hockey jersey, black sweats and about 6'4" with long ass black hair and shades. I told my wife, "That's the singer from W.A.S.P." (remember this was in the 80's) and she was like, "So?"  ;D

cgtrox  8-)

CraigBert — Jun 30, 2009[quote author=cgtrox link=1246034134/25#42 date=1246298708] The point I was making is that O.J. did everything that you say an innocent guy should do, hire the best attorney, spend all of his money fighting the charges, etc.

cgtrox — Jun 30, 2009 First off, I think O.J. was guilty as hell! I mean EVERYTHING he did afterward pointed to it.

cgtrox  8-)

:-?

Well, the top one was actually using O.J.'s situation to defend MJ's decision NOT to go to trial and just pay them off to shut them up, which was a bad move. I've ALWAYS thought O.J. was guilty....

cgtrox  8-)

Heh Chris, imagine walking thru the mall with your girlfriend (at the time) and you both recognize the very same Blackie, and she ducks into a store to avoid him...  I never did get the full story on that (as well as a bunch of other things) from her.   She also waved hello to Brett Michaels (Poison singer) on another occasion and he yelled "Hey Cheryl!" back at her... and yes her name was Cheryl...  She pretty much knew everyone from that era...

Back on point, I too do not get the worshipping aspect of fandom...  Now I'll be back later, I gotta go sacrifice a guitar at my altar to John Petrucci...  ;)

cgtrox — Jun 30, 2009[quote author=Hookbender link=1246034134/50#63 date=1246314209]Let me ask this question to the one's who think OJ and MJ are innocent.

Would you let your young child stay at MJ's home overnight 1 week ago? Would you let your child stay with any adult who gave alcohol to young kids?

And, would you let your adult daughter date Oj?

;D

First off, I think O.J. was guilty as hell! I mean EVERYTHING he did afterward pointed to it. He just had a brilliant legal team that made the LAPD and county prosecution look like a bunch of fumbling idiots, took all the right loopholes and won. We have a legal system that for the most part works, it's not perfect, but it works. Sadly, some of the bad people benefit from that flaw.

As far as MJ goes, I'm still on the fence (80/20) more towards the innocent side, but still on the fence. It's his eccentric side that worries me. I mean the guy was 12 years old and being handed monthly checks for $250K!! Can you imagine the monthly checks he was getting by the time Thriller was hitting??

"With great power, comes great responsibility."

Unfortunately, MJ's life was lacking a lot of the responsibilty side. That kind of money is just "stupid" money! I mean what what you do with $10-20M a month??? Hence his eccentricities in his life, a lot like Elvis.

For the record, I would NOT let my kids stay at ANYONES house that I do not know, celebrity or not. That is why I keep pointing to the PARENTS of these kids. They either had malicious agendas or they are just plain stupid!

I would let my daughter date AND marry the ROOKIE O.J. but not what he became.

cgtrox  8-)

So what MJ did after he paid off his first accusers wasn't enough to convince you that something was kinda wrong? On the second go round?

The parents of MJ were messed up, no doubt. But that doesn't excuse criminal acts agaist children. Even is it were just giving under age kids alcohol.

Not only that, he shouldn't have had children in his custody period. Remember him holding his baby over a balcony? The fucker was off in the head.

cgtrox — Jun 30, 2009Same here man. When I would see these people shopping, putting gas or at a restaurant, I would do a double take, but that was about it. I remember once flying out of LAX and spotting Blackie Lawless trying but failing miserably to be incognito. He was in a hockey jersey, black sweats and about 6'4" with long ass black hair and shades. I told my wife, "That's the singer from W.A.S.P." (remember this was in the 80's) and she was like, "So?"  ;D

I would do the same thing, I never approach anyone famous if I see them, (which is rare) Even when I was at my producer friends house in Beverly Hills, I met people there who were famous, I just chatted with them like they were ordinary folks. I did tell the guy that wrote the Mississippi Burning Movie that I liked his work on that film because (I told him) I could watch it all the way through without changing the channel. But it was not hero worship, just a compliment to his craftsmanship. I also met the guy who played keyboards for Roy Buchanan (Malcolm something or other)

There is no hero worship here.

Hookbender — Jun 30, 2009So what MJ did after he paid off his first accusers wasn't enough to convince you that something was kinda wrong? On the second go round?

The parents of MJ were messed up, no doubt. But that doesn't excuse criminal acts agaist children. Even is it were just giving under age kids alcohol.

Not only that, he shouldn't have had children in his custody period. Remember him holding his baby over a balcony? The fucker was off in the head.

You simply can't go and lynch someone because you think they did something wrong, you can't. You have to go thru the judicial process and let the system work. Have you ever been accused of doing something and you KNOW you didn't do it (not because you didn't) but maybe there is some evidence that points to you being the culprit? I mean, it could be something stupid like, "Who broke this glass in the kitchen?"

"I was the last one in the kitchen, but I didn't do it!" Just cuz you were the last one in the kitchen doesn't mean that you did it. But, still everyone thinks you did.

Personally, I have been "the accused" twice in my life when I was a teenager in pretty serious family situations, one was a robbery of MY OWN HOUSE! The other was a drug thing that caused an overdose of a family member. Both times it looked really, really bad, but I KNOW I didn't do it. Funny thing is, both times, they were wrong. The truth finally came out and I was fully exonerated. But, that was after suffering all the whispering, gossip and back stabbing from my own family, it was really hard. (If you want details I'll give them) Which is one reason why I feel the way I do about the MJ thing.

Now, as far as kids go, he may be an eccentric bastard who is a little off his rocker but he is also a very doting and loving father. Just cuz he's a little wacky does not mean he doesn't love his kids. Like I said before, I know the man just as well as you do, so I couldn't really say, I'm just going by the evidence that I've seen and heard from the testimony of those closest to him...    

cgtrox  8-)    

I get what your saying.

But why would he give the first family $20 million bucks if he were completely innocent?

And why would he put himself in the same situation for a second time?

No choice but to give him a pass on the second accusation, he was found innocent. But for their to be a second, second chance for this allegation, sends me some unsettling thoughts.

In todays world, as with OJ, it's very possible to get away with anything, even murder, if you have enough money. I would argue that our system is very damn flawed today, much more so than it's ever been. I mean, why the hell have a court case involving murder on fucking T.V.?

Murder, divorce, etc., it's all not really as awful as it use to be.

Hookbender — Jun 30, 2009But why would he give the first family $20 million bucks if he were completely innocent?

And why would he put himself in the same situation for a second time?

No choice but to give him a pass on the second accusation, he was found innocent. But for their to be a second, second chance for this allegation, sends me some unsettling thoughts.

I couldn't agree more, this is exactly what keeps me on the fence...  :-/

cgtrox  8-)

:D

How does michael Jackson know when its time to go to bed?


the big hand is over the little hand ;D

sorry, couldn't resist.

he was such an incredible artist, but a true wack job

;D ;D ;D