98 posts
Kabala — Aug 23, 2011
Not needing to know the content, the thread title alone was enough to keep me from following any links, figured it was bad, but after reading a few posts including Jon's quick description, I kinda wish I woulda stayed away. We know it's a sick world out there, some things simply have never changed, but christ, the less I know about crappy stuff like this, the better. I actually stopped watching the evening news as of a few years ago and life has been a lot better here on my little island for it! It's the same news over and over again, from childhood right up til' now. Some nut blows himself up on a bus in Israel in the name of religion, a coach is screwing a student, some company prez is skimming from shareholders, a dude is getting carjacked right now, a woman raped, etc. And when I'm 80 it'll be the same story. Fuck it, I'd rather just not know about shit like this. Sure, I might not know who the latest hot celeb couples are but I'll survive.
Sorry for the rant! Major animal fan here and shit like this does make me sick/sad. Label that emotional, I won't lose any sleep over it as IMO, anyone searching for ways to rationalize behavior like this smacks of some other agenda. For some reason it reminds me of when Mike Vick was leaving the courthouse and being escorted to the squad car after his sentencing, there were still actually dozens of idiots outside cheering him on with sings and what not saying they loved him, didn't care what he did and they don't believe he was guilty, etc. Some people just defend for the sake of whatever, I mean the guy just plead guilty and admitted everything yet some still saw it as ok and didn't understand why he had to go to prison. It's their right to feel whatever they'd like, sure, same as here, but sick is sick, wrong is wrong and most people can recognize that and will see it for what it is. Only a very small few will simply not get it, and that is at least encouraging. And I dunno, I've seen many people get emotional when something horiffic happens to a loved one...course I no longer hear about it these days since it's been tuned out.
There is no search to rationalize this happening, whatever it was. Not on my part. The problem is that folks that saw this video have lost that ability because of a emotional response to a singular event on video on the internet.
This may make you sick and sad for the animal. Yeah, got that. But does that mean you do the same to a human being? Aren't humans a little more advanced than that? Aren't we a little above the actions of a dog? Is the very thought of doing the same to a human as the human did to a dog called rational, in your world? It's not in mine.
I wonder if anyone ever checked Vicks mental state? I think they should.
Very few things are as black and white as you'd like them to be. Sorry.
This isn't about the actions of a dog except as the victim of human actions. Can we rise above human actions? In what way? Where in the world? What standards? Defny not black and white worldwide, lotta gray out there. We have laws that set standards here. Does that mean that researchers don't torture animals? No. Do we create animals to hurt and eat? Yes. Morality is a personal set of lines. Sadistic schaudenfreude has never been my bag. I killed some birds when I was in jr. high and copped a bb gun off my neighbor. It got boring real quick for us and we moved on to trying to shoot coins.
This eye for an eye straw man is getting silly and makes you sound somewhat heartless. I think the vigilante-style comments weren't to be taken as some new "law" for all to follow. Plus I don't think anyone said that torturers should be burned alive with dogs watching. Most people would want some sort of legal justice. What do you think the penalty should be for burning a puppy alive for fun? What do your local laws say? When you talk about people's mental states when committing these crimes, do you mean trying to find out why they get happy when, say, burning a dog alive? Do you think someone who tortures animals would be more likely, less likely, or just as likely to hurt another human as someone who would be sickened by the thought of it?
Hookbender — Aug 23, 2011Very few things are as black and white as you'd like them to be. Sorry.
Black and white? No, I agree. But predictable? Yes, most often yes.
+3 (DTR, Schills, Binge)
but re: schills' sanity island (the one sans Hervé Villechaize...)
I lived the same way for a few years, for the same reasons. seemed like it became "cool" to report on the latest horrific animal story in the '00-'06 timeframe - or at least that's when I noticed it, probably was going on before. even animal planet started having shows about terrible things that happen to animals... wtf?!
anyways, I can't take animal abuse stories and, like you, I'd rather not even know about them at all. I have a good imagination and it's really hard to take even a brief description or "coming attraction" preview commercial.
the problem with sanity island arrived in late '07. by mid '09 I had lost about 40-50% of my net worth simply because I wasn't paying attention.
vowing never to make that mistake again, and because I felt irresponsibly uniformed on my own sanity island, I've read online news since for current events (no tv anymore, ditched cable a while ago because I hate that too, heh)... but ONLY financial news/blogs. it's a great substitute - if it's really important, it shows up there. from riots to unemployment, revolutions to elections. they're political oftentimes but rarely do they have stories that outright disgust me - and free of celeb news and all that irrelevant fluff (except strauss-kahn recently.. but that was easily ignored). recommend it if you want to keep tabs on things but want to stay away from the freak show.
Oh man, I'm right there Sheep, understand and fully agree! Too funny, I also ditched cable a few years back, I mean network tv programming usually sucks but I don't mind (minus the news), still have live sports and late night cheesy movies. What else is there? Reality games? Dime a dozen talk shows? Bah. I'm happy to report I have zero clue what the "strauss-kahn" thing even is! ;D
Sorry to hear about the financial blow, I lost roughly 50% of what I had in my 401k a couple years ago if that helps ya feel any better, lol. But yeah, I agree about the interweb being an ideal selective source of info. I can stay up to date on VITAL STUFF (to me) with none of the never ending war shit, local crime, political rubbish, etc. Just weather, stocks, current events, music, sports, etc. And of course there's the porn. :D
anything good that happens on tv becomes available on dvd (like Lost)... and I can watch w/o commercials. win/win. :)
also, no need to feel sorry about the losses - just about everyone got boned, heh. but if I had been paying attention, I wouldn't have ridden AIG and Citi (among others... sigh) into the dark abyss. it's cool, I'm not complaining.
I just should have remembered the lessons of my youth... when you least expect it, expect it! the earth, she's a-round! wake up and go to sleep! etc.
ok, so they don't always apply.. but... heh.
Hookbender — Aug 23, 2011
When a human kills another human tomorrow, are you gonna get this worked up about that?
I can't believe you'd subject a human being to the same treatment he dished out to the animal before first, seeing if the guy actually has a mental problem, second, treating the mental problem.....before he does any more harm to a human being in the first place.
I'm shocked. Honestly.
Do you realize how cave man that sounds?
DTR is even talking violence.
I don't think I've ever witnessed such emotional responses over a dog, ever.
IMO, nobody could see this and not react emotionally. But you don't seem to be picking up on the fact that I didn't say to do the same thing to these people. I didn't say torture and kill them. If they had kicked this poor little puppy a few times and hurt him and let them live, THEN I'd have wanted to do the same thing to them as they did. But it's not in my makeup to torture and kill a person OR an animal. Especially a domesticated animal like a little puppy. And a really cute one at that. Seriously bro, I would have called Luger off before he ripped them apart. I would have certainly let him take a few good bites first though. ;)
+1 D. I don't watch the news for the same reason, and I think that any fan that supports Vick, or team that hires him, is beyond sick and an extremely poor indicator of where our society is. At the VERY least, he should have been banned from the NFL forever. We all know that money is more important than goodness, what's right, morals, or anything else these days though, don't we? I'm like Kabala, in that I just choose to isolate myself from it.
Crazy thing about Vick - when first questioned by the NFL comish, he straight up pulled a Clinton and bold faced lied, eye to eye..."no, I did not do what they're claiming I did. I'm innocent." So what does Goodell do after the trial and all the dust settles? Hire the guy who lied to his face, lol. Try that with your employer, see how it goes. ;) Anwyway, sorry to dredge up the Vick stuff, old news, no need to beat a dead horse and get all emotional. :P
edit: about the island/isolation thing, it didn't come from a desire to be left alone or to run from any fears of the uglier side of life. It came from the repetitive nature of the happenings themselves and then the news reporting that same shit for decade after decade, over and over, compunding it. I mean some people become numb to it all, more power to 'em. I became sick of it I guess, and with such an easy solution, why not. How long into life can you listen to the same brutal story/different day news. For me I guess it was around 40 yrs, lol.
Since Hook's mentioned it quite a few times (all inaccurately since he obviously didn't fully comprehend my posts), I'll just say things like this:
- I did NOT watch the video (and wouldn't - I DO NOT want that image more in my head than it is already even without seeing it for real)
- I mentioned my opinion, backed by scientific studies, that those who torture and kill animals FOR FUN are far more likely to go on to doing the same to humans (than those that don't torture animals for fun)
- I also don't believe there is ANY possible rationalization that makes it OK to torture and kill animals for fun
- If you can't tell the difference between killing for food and survival versus torturing and killing for fun, then you have your own issues to deal with.
Plus you can add me to the list of guys that don't watch most TV (especially the news) any more. I watch some sports, some of the SyFy shows, some of the Science and History shows and most of the CSI, NCIS type shows.
I hear ya schills, I just mentioned financial press as an alternative because I got the sense that you and I were similarly sick of the whole "news" game and it's worked out for me so I don't get taken by surprise... heh.
we're on the same page, I think.
ironsheep — Aug 23, 2011anything good that happens on tv becomes available on dvd (like Lost)... and I can watch w/o commercials. win/win. :)
also, no need to feel sorry about the losses - just about everyone got boned, heh. but if I had been paying attention, I wouldn't have ridden AIG and Citi (among others... sigh) into the dark abyss. it's cool, I'm not complaining.
I just should have remembered the lessons of my youth... when you least expect it, expect it! the earth, she's a-round! wake up and go to sleep! etc.
ok, so they don't always apply.. but... heh.
Netflix $7.99 streaming option... tons of stuff on there, if you want to watch a show for entertainment... network cable > bluray player > enjoyment...
that'd be the way to go if I ever get interested again, for sure.
as it is, I watch maybe one or two shows a year... and there's so many books i want to read...
BINGEWOOD — Aug 23, 2011This isn't about the actions of a dog except as the victim of human actions. Can we rise above human actions? In what way? Where in the world? What standards? Defny not black and white worldwide, lotta gray out there. We have laws that set standards here. Does that mean that researchers don't torture animals? No. Do we create animals to hurt and eat? Yes. Morality is a personal set of lines. Sadistic schaudenfreude has never been my bag. I killed some birds when I was in jr. high and copped a bb gun off my neighbor. It got boring real quick for us and we moved on to trying to shoot coins.
This eye for an eye straw man is getting silly and makes you sound somewhat heartless. I think the vigilante-style comments weren't to be taken as some new "law" for all to follow. Plus I don't think anyone said that torturers should be burned alive with dogs watching. Most people would want some sort of legal justice. What do you think the penalty should be for burning a puppy alive for fun? What do your local laws say? When you talk about people's mental states when committing these crimes, do you mean trying to find out why they get happy when, say, burning a dog alive? Do you think someone who tortures animals would be more likely, less likely, or just as likely to hurt another human as someone who would be sickened by the thought of it?
Here's the deal. A lot of statements were made concerning animal abuse without thought of any other action but to do the same to the human being. I read the post and responded to what was said. Are you saying that a post should be questioned a few times before responding? It's gonna be hard to communicate under those guidelines. No human should be treated like an animal. We found that out and ended slavery. Had a war over it.
I'm not heartless. I'm not so much of an animal lover, especially dogs, because of the dumb ass owners who don't control them. I am against animal abuse. However, I'm not for punishment of the human to be the same treatment given the dog, for example. That's a stupid and emotional response, sorry.
Lets say your right by some degree. People who abuse animals are 3 to 5 times more likely to do harm to people. That seems a fair percentage from what I've read. Lets say that individuals like Dahmar harmed animals first, before humans. Neither of these two facts justify treating a human being the same as a dog. Neither of these two facts suggest we shouldn't try to help the person with his mental problem or disorder. If the person is deemed not to have a mental problem, we have laws against this type of behavior. And, you shouldn't take the law into your own hands. We have laws for a reason. In Alabama, if I kill a dog painlessly because a owner won't shut the fucker up, I go to jail. Doesn't matter if you consider that abuse or not. I guess the law has decided it's murder.
Now, it can also be said that extreme cases of animal abuse, and some minor animal abuse, is a first sign of a mental disorder. One that could lead to that said person to harm humans. We know this. So, knowing this, we should treat the disorder, not punish the human without understanding the problem. That's my point. And that's my answer to your question. All this talk about individual moral set of lines is bullshit. You can't always base laws, rules, and expectations on moral judgements. Harming an animal isn't the problem in most of these cases, it's the disorder that needs attention.
Their are so few people who do anything remotely close to the likes of Dahmar it's really not much of a stance to use the creep in this argument. I would bet much money on the theory that millions abuse animals at some point in their life and never harm a hair on any humans head. Which, imo, blows a huge hole in your argument. Basically makes is null and void.
I think this should answer most of your questions.
CraigBert — Aug 23, 2011Since Hook's mentioned it quite a few times (all inaccurately since he obviously didn't fully comprehend my posts), I'll just say things like this:
- I did NOT watch the video (and wouldn't - I DO NOT want that image more in my head than it is already even without seeing it for real)
- I mentioned my opinion, backed by scientific studies, that those who torture and kill animals FOR FUN are far more likely to go on to doing the same to humans (than those that don't torture animals for fun)
- I also don't believe there is ANY possible rationalization that makes it OK to torture and kill animals for fun
- If you can't tell the difference between killing for food and survival versus torturing and killing for fun, then you have your own issues to deal with.
Plus you can add me to the list of guys that don't watch most TV (especially the news) any more. I watch some sports, some of the SyFy shows, some of the Science and History shows and most of the CSI, NCIS type shows.
They are not far more likely, they are 3 to 5 times more likely. And government studies are not very good, by the way.
I can tell the difference. I can also assure you that it's much more effective to treat the person than to have that person be abused in the same way he did the animal. That's solves nothing. And if you continue to read your "studies", you'd find that treating these people instead of worrying to death about how to harm them back would surely prevent that person from moving on to harming people. Which, by the way, should be the goal. I would consider it a crime to punish the person before addressing the mental state of the person. The person harmed an animal, not another person.
Hookbender — Aug 24, 2011
Here's the deal. A lot of statements were made concerning animal abuse without thought of any other action but to do the same to the human being. I read the post and responded to what was said. Are you saying that a post should be questioned a few times before responding? It's gonna be hard to communicate under those guidelines. No human should be treated like an animal. We found that out and ended slavery. Had a war over it.
Unfortunately enslaved people were treated worse than animals at that time. It wasn't possible for men to rape animals to make more animals to sell for work, sexing, etc. Animals couldn't take care of each other after unmerciful beatings, they would die or need more resources/work for treatment.
Again, I don't think that people venting in reaction to something evil was meant to be taken as gospel. You will have to ask them though.
I'm not heartless. I'm not so much of an animal lover, especially dogs, because of the dumb ass owners who don't control them. I am against animal abuse. However, I'm not for punishment of the human to be the same treatment given the dog, for example. That's a stupid and emotional response, sorry.
The dogs are all creatures man made. Cats as well. They didn't exactly occur naturally no matter how wild they are. Owners of animals can be a problem especially in the responsibility department. All animals are a responsibility. I'm sure, if you have had pets, you've been through this with yer kids. Some a are special responsibility like in your German Shepherd example. It would be the owners fault if he didn't separate his dog, especially a large dog, from visitors, even if the owner didn't think anything would ever happen. The law would, hopefully, step in. Unfortunately it would be after an incident. Should people own these breeds? Sure, if they're up to responsibility. Do irresponsible people own animals? Yes. When the dogs next door drove you nuts, did you deal with the owner? How did you want to deal with the owner?
If you're just arguing that the emotional responses given weren't based in the probable reality of what these guys would do if they ran across this situation. Ok. I hear ya. Like I said, most people, I believe, would want a legal conclusion involving police/court etc. This kind of offense would prolly warrant some kind of evaluation of the offender. Not sure how much bread would be spent on a first timer tho. This video example, I believe, was from another country. Could be very different laws and set of values there re:animals. In this case there would be no repercussions... mebee even encouragement depending on the local morality and conditions/enforcement of any laws.
What would you do if you if you were walking and you saw some kids light a dog on fire?
Lets say your right by some degree. People who abuse animals are 3 to 5 times more likely to do harm to people. That seems a fair percentage from what I've read. Lets say that individuals like Dahmar harmed animals first, before humans. Neither of these two facts justify treating a human being the same as a dog. Neither of these two facts suggest we shouldn't try to help the person with his mental problem or disorder. If the person is deemed not to have a mental problem, we have laws against this type of behavior. And, you shouldn't take the law into your own hands. We have laws for a reason. In Alabama, if I kill a dog painlessly because a owner won't shut the fucker up, I go to jail. Doesn't matter if you consider that abuse or not. I guess the law has decided it's murder.
Again, we agree on having laws in this country to deal with abuse, let alone burning, of an animal. Treatment would be great and encouraged!
"...kill a dog painlessly because a owner won't shut the fucker up..." Lost me there on concept beyond the jail part. Like I said, it sounds like when yer mad at an owner, you want to take it up with their animal.
Now, it can also be said that extreme cases of animal abuse, and some minor animal abuse, is a first sign of a mental disorder. One that could lead to that said person to harm humans. We know this. So, knowing this, we should treat the disorder, not punish the human without understanding the problem. That's my point. And that's my answer to your question. All this talk about individual moral set of lines is bullshit. You can't always base laws, rules, and expectations on moral judgements. Harming an animal isn't the problem in most of these cases, it's the disorder that needs attention.
Actually it's not exactly bullshit. You said you have "fun" shooting crows. It's fine under the law to shoot crows where you are. Cool. If I was there I wouldn't shoot any crows, though I could. It wouldn't be in line with my current morality. I don't like killing things for no real reason beyond my own entertainment. My morality could change though... I could suffer a massive head trauma and be a whole new me due to dain bramage. So again, I agree with you re:therapy or evalution and having actual laws, at least here. Kids who do this may be being abused at home. Parents might have a "no one gunna tell me how to raise my kids" attitude. Hopefully decent parents would want to get on this quick!
Harming an animal is also a problem, tho, not just a symptom.
Their are so few people who do anything remotely close to the likes of Dahmar it's really not much of a stance to use the creep in this argument. I would bet much money on the theory that millions abuse animals at some point in their life and never harm a hair on any humans head. Which, imo, blows a huge hole in your argument. Basically makes is null and void.
I think this should answer most of your questions.
I'm sure many many more abuse animals at some point in their lives. I'm also sure lotza them abuse people as well. I think the serial killer point wasn't meant to say that all animal torturers will go on to hurt people... more like many serial killers tortured animals first.
Have you ever killed an animal for fun or known someone who did or witness it? If so, was it more than once? Outside of the sport hunting/fishing.
http://youtu.be/qzgk9EV4wIA
I saw a friend put his cat in a dryer. Didn't hurt it, it just popped the door open and ran off. Fucking mean cat. His parents had it put to sleep about a month later. No, never killed an animal for the fun of it, really. I've always enjoyed duck hunting and dove hunting. I gave my kill to friends who ate them. I just enjoyed the challenge of shooting something that flew. I like to shoot clay targets also. I don't do any of it anymore.
If your taking what the guys said in their post a different way, and they meant it in a different way, it just backs up the emotional response theory I gave. I doubt they meant it any different than it read.
I think I explained my neighbors dog situation well enough. If you ask them to keep their dogs quiet and they refuse, the only option is to eliminate the noise....kill the dogs. The law won't help. but if I were to have done that, I would have been taken to jail for killing the dog. So, I just didn't get much sleep. It was frustrating as hell. Even if I could kill the dogs, I'm sure I couldn't. So, I just got pissed off a lot. ;D
If I saw a kid light a dog on fire, I'm not sure what my reaction would be. Hopefully I won't ever see that. but right now, emotions aside, i'd like to see the kid have some type of evaluation to see what his mental state is. Go from there. I guess I'd take the kid to his parents and see what their reaction was. If they were pissed, I'd probably leave it alone. If they just acted a little mad and blew it off, I'd call the police and let them handle it. But I can't say for sure.
Hookbender — Aug 24, 2011I saw a friend put his cat in a dryer. Didn't hurt it, it just popped the door open and ran off. Fucking mean cat. His parents had it put to sleep about a month later. No, never killed an animal for the fun of it, really. I've always enjoyed duck hunting and dove hunting. I gave my kill to friends who ate them. I just enjoyed the challenge of shooting something that flew. I like to shoot clay targets also. I don't do any of it anymore.
I wonder why the cat was mean... Kids do stupid shit, itz if they keep doing it and liking it thatz usually a problem.
Hunting is a whole other convo... I'll abstain fer now as I have mixed feelingz about it. People eating the animals makes it all a more ordered chemical process than I view much of the world, but order/chaos wassa difference... itz human shit, right? heh heh
If your taking what the guys said in their post a different way, and they meant it in a different way, it just backs up the emotional response theory I gave. I doubt they meant it any different than it read.
I'm taking it as being bummed at seeing something horrible and wanting some sort of justice (whatever that means, right?) for the crispuppy. I thought it would be a newsclip and when I saw that there was a warning, I didn't check it. I've seen enough sickening shit in my life to not need any more.
I think I explained my neighbors dog situation well enough. If you ask them to keep their dogs quiet and they refuse, the only option is to eliminate the noise....kill the dogs. The law won't help. but if I were to have done that, I would have been taken to jail for killing the dog. So, I just didn't get much sleep. It was frustrating as hell. Even if I could kill the dogs, I'm sure I couldn't. So, I just got pissed off a lot. ;D
There should have been a recourse for you. You might have had to take it to a neighborhood petition level. Don't know what your neighbors were like tho. Dogs barking all night is not fun. Sometimes you have to work to get things through to neighbors. Like yer famz, you don't generally get to pick them.
If I saw a kid light a dog on fire, I'm not sure what my reaction would be. Hopefully I won't ever see that. but right now, emotions aside, i'd like to see the kid have some type of evaluation to see what his mental state is. Go from there. I guess I'd take the kid to his parents and see what their reaction was. If they were pissed, I'd probably leave it alone. If they just acted a little mad and blew it off, I'd call the police and let them handle it. But I can't say for sure.
I would hope to be able to stop it from happening or help the dog in some way... and then do anything in my power to get the authorities involved.
Here's the deal. A lot of statements were made concerning animal abuse without thought of any other action but to do the same to the human being. I read the post and responded to what was said. Are you saying that a post should be questioned a few times before responding? It's gonna be hard to communicate under those guidelines. No human should be treated like an animal.
Sigh.... no, again, I NEVER said to do the same thing too them. I'm assuming by your posts that we do indeed speak the same language, so I'm not sure what part of that I'm not clear on. Seems clear enough too me when I say
But you don't seem to be picking up on the fact that I didn't say to do the same thing to these people. I didn't say torture and kill them. If they had kicked this poor little puppy a few times and hurt him and let them live, THEN I'd have wanted to do the same thing to them as they did. But it's not in my makeup to torture and kill a person OR an animal. Especially a domesticated animal like a little puppy. And a really cute one at that
It seems clear enough to me that I said NOT to do the same thing too them. Don't think I could be any more clear.
Also, you seem to have taken a frighteningly liberal approach to part of this. I really couldn't care less what Michael Vick's mental state was, nor what these boys was. They both tortured innocent animals, and they both need to be punished. Justice comes in different forms. Sending Vick to a luxury hotel for sensitivity training is not justice. Telling these boys parents and "hoping they do something about it" is not justice. You can call it emotional or whatever you want, but they need their asses kicked and GOOD! Same goes for Vick, btw!
"Sigh.... no, again, I NEVER said to do the same thing too them."
then.....
" You can call it emotional or whatever you want, but they need their asses kicked and GOOD! Same goes for Vick, btw!"
I assume you mean beat up another human being. ABUSE another human being. Abuse is not limited to a dog caught on fire.
Lets just say you said it here, in this statement, and I don't have to re-read your previous posts.
"But you don't seem to be picking up on the fact that I didn't say to do the same thing to these people. I didn't say torture and kill them. If they had kicked this poor little puppy a few times and hurt him and let them live, THEN I'd have wanted to do the same thing to them as they did. But it's not in my makeup to torture and kill a person OR an animal. Especially a domesticated animal like a little puppy.
"THEN I'd have wanted to do the same thing to them as they did"
What is that? Is that not meaning do the same to the human as he did the dog? Is that not the same treatment?
And this.....
"Re: Sick assholes
Reply #3 - 08/17/11 at 12:03pm Quote being a dog lover, I'm warning others not to watch this. I wish I hadn't but didn't know for sure what was going to happen and then watched a bit in disbelief. I'd like to introduce those piece of shit kids to the doberman I had!"
This as your #2 post you entertained taking a baseball bat and beating these people, I assume.
Is that not abuse? An eye for an eye? Hell yes it is.
I never liked the term "eye for an eye"...I prefer to think of it more as simply holding someone accountable for their actions ( but equally ;D)
Didn't all that OT stuff pertain only to interactions between jooz? heh heh
In China, and other places, you can buy a dog or cat to eat like you see chickens in a live meat market. Different set of rules than we're used to.
Here's a twist to this discussion, which I do often. ;D
I am very much for the death penalty. I do believe that if a human being kills another human being, he should be killed back. :-?
It pisses me off that if a person kills someone, he has the opportunity to get life in prison, for punishment. Why, Pretty much because he has a brain and at some point decided to take another persons life. If that happens, I don't feel that person deserves to have the government pay 40 grand a year to keep him alive. Government, as in us.
And to be honest, I really don't care if the killer has a mental problem or not.
Murder someone or any killing? Lotta wiggle room within the "law". How much money ya gotz? heh heh
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/608001/hard-partying_rich_boy_kills_two_in_hit-and-run,_buys_himself_out_of_a_prison_sentence/Also, depending on the evidence, murderers can often plea to a lesser crime. When we have a way to read the brain/mind accurately I'll be behind the death penalty as I don't think of death as that horrible a thing. The politics/rapings of real jail in an seemingly endless/completely futile situation seems worse to me. Unless yer the type who thrives in that system. Death row as far as I've seen is a way different trip than gen pop. You gotta keep 'em separated. Of course if you kill these people the privatized prison industry wont get all the funds they would like... just a drop in the bucket though, I suppose.
If an innocent man is executed, would you see it as just a mistake?
If you decide that the death penalty is the punishment for murder, you'd have to consider the possibility of making a mistake. However, with dna evidence, mistakes may be less likely. Yes, is my answer.
No, no... The death penalty should be reserved for people that don't match up genetically, politically or racially to the National ideal. Your government will tell you if you pass the test or not soon. ;)
Hookbender — Aug 25, 2011If you decide that the death penalty is the punishment for murder, you'd have to consider the possibility of making a mistake. However, with dna evidence, mistakes may be less likely. Yes, is my answer.
How do you define murder? If someone makes a plan and kills the man who molested their child is it murder in your opinion?
Many cases have only circumstantial evidence, no physical evidence let alone DNA. Is your support of the death penalty based on making an example for others to heed, an eye for an eye trip you were talking about before, mostly money based i.e. wasting the taxpayers money by keeping criminals alive longer?
DreamTheaterRules — Aug 24, 2011 you seem to have taken a frighteningly liberal approach to part of this. I really couldn't care less what Michael Vick's mental state was, nor what these boys was. They both tortured innocent animals, and they both need to be punished. Justice comes in different forms. Sending Vick to a luxury hotel for sensitivity training is not justice. Telling these boys parents and "hoping they do something about it" is not justice. You can call it emotional or whatever you want, but they need their asses kicked and GOOD! Same goes for Vick, btw!
What's the "liberal" approach, as you see it?
BINGEWOOD — Aug 25, 2011[quote author=Hookbender link=1313566373/75#76 date=1314271364]If you decide that the death penalty is the punishment for murder, you'd have to consider the possibility of making a mistake. However, with dna evidence, mistakes may be less likely. Yes, is my answer.
How do you define murder? If someone makes a plan and kills the man who molested their child is it murder in your opinion?
Many cases have only circumstantial evidence, no physical evidence let alone DNA. Is your support of the death penalty based on making an example for others to heed, an eye for an eye trip you were talking about before, mostly money based i.e. wasting the taxpayers money by keeping criminals alive longer?
If a person kills someone intentionally by any method for any reason with the only exception being self defense. Thats my definition of murder.
A human being is way more intelligent than a dog. A dog doesn't think about what he's doing and doesn't know right from wrong. A human does. No mercy. If you kill someone and that was your intention, except for self defense, there is no option other than death to that person. And that person should walk out of the courtroom, if found guilty, and go straight to his death bed. The end.
Why should we provide the murderer with healthcare, food, TV, basketball courts, exercise equipment, and roof over their head if they killed someone? That cost tax payers lots of money. Your also taking a human being and treating him like an animal by putting him in a cage for the rest of his life. I just think its insane. Not to mention the fact the creep may be let go at some point. I think it cost about 40 grand a year to keep a person in prison. We pay that. Thats insanity. I doubt this penalty would drop the murder rate a whole lot, maybe it would, but it would save a shit load of money. And, I think it's the right choice, even considering the possible mistakes that could be made.
Maybe there's something I haven't considered, my opinion could change if a strong case against it were made. But right now, thats my thoughts on the matter.
BINGEWOOD — Aug 25, 2011[quote author=DreamTheaterRules link=1313566373/50#67 date=1314207265] you seem to have taken a frighteningly liberal approach to part of this. I really couldn't care less what Michael Vick's mental state was, nor what these boys was. They both tortured innocent animals, and they both need to be punished. Justice comes in different forms. Sending Vick to a luxury hotel for sensitivity training is not justice. Telling these boys parents and "hoping they do something about it" is not justice. You can call it emotional or whatever you want, but they need their asses kicked and GOOD! Same goes for Vick, btw!
What's the "liberal" approach, as you see it?
After what Vick did, Hook asks if anyone checked his mental state. His mental state is that he thinks it's ok to turture and kill animals. Which makes my mental state that he needs his ass kicked and he needs to not be allowed to make millions of dollars as a pro athlete and seeming have most people just forget about what he did, just because he can play.
Being from the south, I'm still surprised that Hook has such a problem understanding the basics of this. When I say "he needs his ass kicked" that doesn't mean that I want to go right now and torture and kill him like he did the dogs. It just means that anyone who does that deserves to get their ass kicked. Don't read into it more than what was said. If I see Michael Dick in an airport after a loss, I'm not going to go torture and kill him. Really didn't think I need to clarify this any further but I guess I do. ::) I'm not going to burn the POS boys who burned the puppy to death either. However, to be clear, if I were there and saw that happen, my emotional reaction would have swiftly brought them to some form of justice. ;) They would then have time to evaluate their mental states and try to become more productive members of society as you wish. But they wouldn't soon forget the punishment for what they did. ;)
And that's the backwards ass readneck response you'd expect from.....well, me. ;D
Your actually worse than the kids if you use, and think, violence is the answer. Especially for simply harming a dog.
Mike Vick paid his debt to society in a prison. That's over. No reason he shouldn't be able to play pro ball and make a living. Would you rather the government take care of him the rest of his life? You think your taxes should pay for him to eat, find shelter etc for his lifetime?
People in the south should be allowed to reason shouldn't they? Not all southerners are ignorant.
You sound like your taking the role of God into your own hands.
Especially for simply harming a dog.
I truly regret having come across someone like you here.
moving on...
Whatever. Look Sheep. I don't think it's funny to harm animals. I don't agree with people intentionally doing harm to an innocent animal.
However, I value human life over animals. And I believe that a human deserves treatment before the person is abused himself. For a human to abuse another human for harming an animal does no one any good. If a child catches a dog on fire, is taking a baseball bat and beating the hell out of the child the answer to the problem? You question my thoughts while others here would beat the hell out of a child with a bat and ask questions later?
I understand the moral, emotional side to most of your statements. However, if you think so little of human life as in this case, I don't give a damn what you regret. Or think for that matter.
The one thing that really infuriates me these days is that practically everyone has adopted completely liberal views about everything. Something terrible happens and we just want to launch an inquiry as to why it happened and what drove them to it blah blah blah. Yes, OK, we should investigate that to try to put in place measures to ensure it doesnt happen again, but we all know that is bollocks because it just keeps happening again and again.
So, my point is, what is wrong with good old fashioned punishment ? If you commit a crime you should be punished for it. If you torture an animal by setting fire to it and watching it slowly die in absolute agony while you stand around laughing and filming it then you should absolutely be punished to the maximum that the law allows. However, if I had been present when those kids did that to that defenceless animal I would indeed have issued my own punishment there and then on the spot, and it wouldnt have been pretty. You should expect to be treated with the same respect that you treat others, and I include animals in this context. An animal feels pain just as you or I feel it, so what right has a human to inflict pain on an animal? There is no justification for it.
Hookbender — Aug 28, 2011Whatever. Look Sheep. I don't think it's funny to harm animals. I don't agree with people intentionally doing harm to an innocent animal.
However, I value human life over animals. And I believe that a human deserves treatment before the person is abused himself. For a human to abuse another human for harming an animal does no one any good. If a child catches a dog on fire, is taking a baseball bat and beating the hell out of the child the answer to the problem? You question my thoughts while others here would beat the hell out of a child with a bat and ask questions later?
I understand the moral, emotional side to most of your statements. However, if you think so little of human life as in this case, I don't give a damn what you regret. Or think for that matter.
See, you mentioned you don't condone cruelty to animals, check that, DEFENSELESS animals...but you sure are coming off as one who
makes light of it with your repeated diversions/comparisons to human behavior, etc.
I'm not making light of it at all. I would just rather fix the problem, or treat the person if indeed he needs it, rather than beat the hell out of him with a bat, thats all.
If your kid did this, do you think your kid should get help with a problem, or some stranger beat the hell out of him with a bat, for example?
Remember, if you do decide to punish someone's child, like beat him with a bat, your gonna find yourself in prison for a long damn time. Durring that time, you'll likely be someone's dick holster. ;D
It's not really a liberal position, it's a position that incorporates the fact that treating a mental disorder has a better chance of that person A) never doing this again and B) helping this person realize the faults of this kind of actions.
I guess you could add that it may prevent this person from harming another person in the future also.
That's 3 pretty impressive accomplishments, imo.
Hook, lets get real for a minute. If I stumble across 2 14 year old boys doing this to a puppy, I'm not going to go get a baseball bat and beat them to death. I think you and everyone here knows that. Plus, I would hope at some point (although repeated explanations don't seem to get the point across) you would understand that saying someone needs or deserves to have their ass kicked, does not mean that I'm going to go find them and beat them up. That said, I can tell you point blank that if I walked up on this, I'd have hurt both of them. If I caught them. My first reaction would be to take off a shirt, find water, or whatever and immediately save the dog. If the little pu$$ies didn't run when that happened, I think a proper response would be to drop both of them. Not to be mean or hurtful or not respectful of their feelings and what they might be going through in life, but just to make sure they didn't move before the police got there. You know, just basically being a good citizen and detaining them until the cops arrived.
Anyone who witnessed this and all they did was tell the kids parents and hope they took care of it (almost a quote)... :o ... sorry, I can't even really tell you what that would make me think of someone. At the VERY least, you call the police. And if they try to run, you make it so they can't. :) I'd hope they resisted though! ;)
Your post suggest violence. Thats the way I took it, and still take it.
The parents of these kids is the first line of defense in stopping this kind of problem. And you were not even close to quoting me. Read my quote, why don't you. It suggest that if the parents seemed to not be blow away with shock then I would call the police. Your brilliant dude.
If your child did something like this, wouldn't you want the opportunity to correct the problem yourself before police were called? I sure would. Then one could actually get the kid help vs the only concern being punishment. In your world that seems to mean more violence. I don't buy that crap.
And it's not your place to correct someone's child. That's the parents responsibility. It's also the parents responsibility to get the child help if he needs it. It's also the parents responsibility to determine if the child needs punishment, or mental help.
this has nothing to do with correcting someones child! The video said they were teenagers. Old enough to know what they were doing and old enough to know right from wrong. Old enough to have their ass kicked if they get caught doing something like this!
About 10 years ago, I was down town (Cincinnati). I saw 3 boys walking down the sidewalk. One smaller boy was riding towards them on a bike. (I was stopped at a stop light). When the boy got close, they squared up daring him to try to get by them. He swerved 5 feet off the sidewalk since they wouldn't move. The one closest to him lunged at him and knocked him off his bike. They then started yelling at him that he tried to hit them and one of them punched him. He is still on the ground bleeding from the crash, and they all start kicking him.
Should I have asked them for their parents number and gave them a call to tell them what their sons were doing and hoped they did something about it? Sorry. I threw my car in park as soon as I saw them hit him and was 25 feet away when I noticed two other drivers where right behind me. If the nancy boys hadn't bolted immediately, they would have gotten thumped. Don't worry Mr. Obama. All three of us that went after them had shirt and tie on. We were not going to kill them or beat them half to death as you indicate. But they would have learned a lesson. And if it was your son on the bike, you'd have thanked me and the others. At the least, we kept him from getting hurt badly because they ran when they saw us coming. The funny thing was the horns and people clapping behind us. Judging by the response of the people behind us, they all approved of what we did. Sounds like you would have been back there honking your horn because we were holding up traffic...
You seem confused about the fact that I wasn't there when the video in question was made. I said they deserve to have their butts kicked for what they did. You say I have no right to do anything too them. That's a pretty liberal (and sad!) view, that if a man walks up on a violent act, he has no right to do anything about it. Here's a question for you: What if that were your dog? What if it were mine? Would have have had a right to do anything then? What if it were your dog, and it were YOU that walked up them right after they lit it? What would you do?
Here's another one: If a guy breaks in your house tonight and you hear him coming and have every means to get up and get something to protect yourself, do you lay there and figure once whatever happens is over, you'll call the cops and let them sort it out and hopefully get the guy some help? I grab a bat and bust his shins as soon as he steps in my bedroom, ( I didn't say split his skull, which would be easy enough) then if I'm in a really good mood, I start asking questions. I don't wait til he's pulled a gun or done something to me or my wife and then call the police later if I'm still alive. I disable him, then let the law do it's job.
Being a dog lover, I really wish I'd never watched the video in the first place as it still haunts me. To think someone could witness this and do nothing about it makes me almost as sick. I'm neither a cave man nor violent though because I would do something about it if I saw it. I'm also sorry I got involved in this part of the conversation. Too easy to get emotionally involved after seeing the video. Too easy to think what I'd do if they did that to this guy
Wow, that little guy looks a lot like a younger version of the dog my business partner had here. Here's an obit that I put together last April when "the time" finally came around (he was 15 and a half). He was a very fun dog.
DreamTheaterRules — Aug 30, 2011this has nothing to do with correcting someones child! The video said they were teenagers. Old enough to know what they were doing and old enough to know right from wrong. Old enough to have their ass kicked if they get caught doing something like this!
About 10 years ago, I was down town (Cincinnati). I saw 3 boys walking down the sidewalk. One smaller boy was riding towards them on a bike. (I was stopped at a stop light). When the boy got close, they squared up daring him to try to get by them. He swerved 5 feet off the sidewalk since they wouldn't move. The one closest to him lunged at him and knocked him off his bike. They then started yelling at him that he tried to hit them and one of them punched him. He is still on the ground bleeding from the crash, and they all start kicking him.
Should I have asked them for their parents number and gave them a call to tell them what their sons were doing and hoped they did something about it? Sorry. I threw my car in park as soon as I saw them hit him and was 25 feet away when I noticed two other drivers where right behind me. If the nancy boys hadn't bolted immediately, they would have gotten thumped. Don't worry Mr. Obama. All three of us that went after them had shirt and tie on. We were not going to kill them or beat them half to death as you indicate. But they would have learned a lesson. And if it was your son on the bike, you'd have thanked me and the others. At the least, we kept him from getting hurt badly because they ran when they saw us coming. The funny thing was the horns and people clapping behind us. Judging by the response of the people behind us, they all approved of what we did. Sounds like you would have been back there honking your horn because we were holding up traffic...
You seem confused about the fact that I wasn't there when the video in question was made. I said they deserve to have their butts kicked for what they did. You say I have no right to do anything too them. That's a pretty liberal (and sad!) view, that if a man walks up on a violent act, he has no right to do anything about it. Here's a question for you: What if that were your dog? What if it were mine? Would have have had a right to do anything then? What if it were your dog, and it were YOU that walked up them right after they lit it? What would you do?
Here's another one: If a guy breaks in your house tonight and you hear him coming and have every means to get up and get something to protect yourself, do you lay there and figure once whatever happens is over, you'll call the cops and let them sort it out and hopefully get the guy some help? I grab a bat and bust his shins as soon as he steps in my bedroom, ( I didn't say split his skull, which would be easy enough) then if I'm in a really good mood, I start asking questions. I don't wait til he's pulled a gun or done something to me or my wife and then call the police later if I'm still alive. I disable him, then let the law do it's job.
Being a dog lover, I really wish I'd never watched the video in the first place as it still haunts me. To think someone could witness this and do nothing about it makes me almost as sick. I'm neither a cave man nor violent though because I would do something about it if I saw it. I'm also sorry I got involved in this part of the conversation. Too easy to get emotionally involved after seeing the video. Too easy to think what I'd do if they did that to this guy
I don't see a problem with your example of the boy on a bike. Has nothing to do with this punishment thing you have in your head though. What is "thumped"? I assume you mean hit. Your answer to everything is violence. I'm not sure, you may need some counseling yourself. You want to thump the teenager, kick the teenagers ass, hit the teenager with a bat, etc.
Let me make this clear to you. If you see a teenager harm an animal, you have no right to use violence against that teenager, period. The law would back me on this. No problem if you luck up and are able to prevent the violent act, but to judge that person and punish them on the spot by beating them with a bat, hitting them, etc...well, try that. Learn on your own. No teenager deserves to be hit with a bat, beat up by you, or have any other violent method of punishment dished out by you in any way for harming a dog.
I'm not confused about the video at all. I know you weren't there. this whole debate is based on your comments about a video you saw on the net. Not one in which you were in or were at. If it were my dog, I'd do what I said I'd do.
If someone breaks in my house, I'd beat the fucker senseless and if he's armed I'd probably shoot him. The difference is that this example would be self defense and the law says you can defend yourself if someone breaks in your house. This is completely different than your imposed punishment on another persons child over a dog. Has nothing to do with this conversation and isn't remotely close in circumstance.
And yes, you are emotional on this subject. Too emotional to think clearly. I hope you never see this happen because you'll likely find yourself doing time if you actually beat a kid for harming an animal. Would you hit your own kid with a bat if he did this? Would you kick your own kids ass if he did this? If so, go get counseling now.
By now, you've heard about my athletic prowess. You should know that this is the only kind of bat I'm allowed to use. Hitting teenagers with it shouldn't be a big deal, now should it?
I'm not sure that's funny.