The Watering Hole

I posted this on the Kemper forum, copied and pasted to here.

I'm sure many people are wondering if a "Fresh Breeze" can play the guitar, and if the Kemper can 'feedback' like a real amp? :D

The answer is yes, a fresh breeze can play the guitar, and the Kemper can 'feedback' just like a real amp.

Here's the story behind this 5:45 seconds of madness.

I put my guitar on the couch which is next to an open door which leads outside and walked off to make some coffee.
The guitar was plugged into the Kemper and a Mesa MKV Profile was loaded.
A fresh breeze started blowing through the door and obviously got the strings vibrating which lead to a permanent feedback coming from the KPA and through my studio monitors. :)
This seemed like fun, so I walked up to the KPA and turned onto the FX, I put my foot on the wah pedal and randomely started scrolling through the FX, at the same time I pressed 'record' on Cool Edit.
For 5 minutes I just scrolled through FX, messed around with various parameters, and occasionally pressed down on the wah pedal, all the while recording.
Not once did I go anywhere near the guitar, at all times the guitar was played by "The Breeze", I didn't touch it.

Anyway, to cut a ridiculous story short, :) , I was listening back to the feedback/breeze recording and I picked up the guitar, stayed on the same Rig, gave it some serious delay and plucked a few notes over the recording.

And, this is the result.

http://soundcloud.com/temper59/the-kemper-a-breeze

Don't blame me, blame the wind, the Kemper, and a humbucker. :D

I think your musical experiment is quite cool.

however, the "if the Kemper can 'feedback' like a real amp" part...

the kemper is amplified by your monitors... an amp driving the monitors.

why is the resulting feedback surprising, novel or proof of anything kemper specific?

ironsheep — Feb 04, 2012I

why is the resulting feedback surprising, novel or proof of anything kemper specific?

It was surprising, not novel or proof. :)
I've never got this kind of feedback from a modeller I've used.
This feels like real feedback, like when you're playing through an amp real loud and you know at any time you can un-mute the strings and it will go into feedback.

To be honest, the 'title' was more for the sake of humour than reality....I live in my own little fucked up world.  ;D

I used to get feedback off the pod if I was going through 100W keyboard amps... but if you never really cranked up while using a modeller I can see why it was a surprise. it's just sound causing the strings to vibrate, though... doesn't matter what the source is for the phenomenon to take place (ebow, for instance).

I'm sure there's an argument to be had as to whether the source makes a difference in the character of the resulting feedback (I think it does... heh) but that's not really the issue.

again though, cool idea to jam along with a fresh breeze "pad" accompaniment!

All modeling equipment I've ever owned could produce feedback.  My iPhone was once used as an amp and produced feedback. :-?

Fenderbender — Feb 05, 2012All modeling equipment I've ever owned could produce feedback.  My iPhone was once used as an amp and produced feedback. :-?

Interesting.

We jammed for how many years on the Watering Hole?...we all posted dozens upon dozens of clips using different modellers, I don't recall ever hearing feedback on a recording.

Admittedly, I generally am not shooting for a feedback type thing.  When I use it, it is a more subtle thing.  Allowing overtones to pick up.  And that's without cheating.  I have had guitars with sustainor pickups in them over the years and think I only owned one the time that I had the Vettas.

I never owned the POD stuff so I can't speak for that.  I had a full blown amp.  Maybe that was the difference.

Over the years I have since switched back to tubes.  How often to you hear feedback on my recordings now?  I just recently posted two.  One was a rather clean sound so I wouldn't expect much feedback there.  The other one I used a Big Muff through a 50 watt amp and I don't recall there being any feedback in that clip either.  Though I could totally have forgotten about it since I simply improvised the clip and had no direction in mind when I recorded it.  

I guess what I'm driving at is your litmus test for hearing feedback in MY tracks isn't a very good one.

I do have some old recordings that I did with the Vetta.  I'll go through them and see if I can find ya something with feedback, though I think it will be hard to find as it's just not something I use.  I tend to use a very controled sound when recording.

My old POD rack unit definitely fed back...and I didn't even run it through a real pwr amp, just a pair of those Roland powered monitors. When cranked up, it was plenty loud, and if I was sitting right there at the desktop, sure, feedback was no problem. Pretty sure I captured some of that in clips as well.  

Yeah this isn't making sense to me.  I can't think of any amp that I've owned that I couldn't produce feedback on.  I've had several SS amps and I can easily produce feedback.

Hell my son has a SS Orange amp and I know he can produce feedback on that.  

I'm not trying to start any shit with anybody.  I guess I'm just NOT surprised that a peice of kit that has speakers hooked up to it and electricity running through it produced feedback.  That's all I'm really saying.  All you need is something to cause that guitar to vibrate and it's on like Donkey Kong.  

Oops, looks like we can't find that page!

That is what I got when clicking on that link Lance

not going to get technical here, but I have noticed a significant DIFFERENCE in the way a modeler feeds back than the way amps do, in the past.  

Yes, my older PODs would feed back when played through an amp, or monitors.  But I have noticed my newer HD500 feeds back MUCH MORE like a real amp.  Meaning, it doesn't take as much gain to do so, and it doesn't take as much volume to do so.  This may be why Lance is so taken aback by the fact that a light breeze will make it start feeding back, plus (from prior conversations with Lance about his living arrangements) I'm assuming it is through monitors that aren't turned up very loud at all.  

I still say the HD500 is pretty good.  I"m sure it's not as good as the Kemper or Axe, but even it is strides above the older modelers in how it feeds back.  The feel, the control, (both much more like a real amp) and the way (lower volume/lower gain) are much more "real" than they used to be.  

where did the clip go, Lance?  I want to hear the "gone with the wind" track.   ;D

DreamTheaterRules — Feb 06, 2012not going to get technical here, but I have noticed a significant DIFFERENCE in the way a modeler feeds back than the way amps do, in the past.  

Yes, my older PODs would feed back when played through an amp, or monitors.  But I have noticed my newer HD500 feeds back MUCH MORE like a real amp.  Meaning, it doesn't take as much gain to do so, and it doesn't take as much volume to do so.  This may be why Lance is so taken aback by the fact that a light breeze will make it start feeding back, plus (from prior conversations with Lance about his living arrangements) I'm assuming it is through monitors that aren't turned up very loud at all.  

I still say the HD500 is pretty good.  I"m sure it's not as good as the Kemper or Axe, but even it is strides above the older modelers in how it feeds back.  The feel, the control, (both much more like a real amp) and the way (lower volume/lower gain) are much more "real" than they used to be.  

In Lance's response to me it sounds TO ME like he's acting as if it is impossible TO HIM for a solid state device to even create feedback thus his surprise.

That's what it reads like to me.  I'm sure Lance will correct me if I misunderstood him.  Like I said, it seems a bit odd that we are surprised that a SS device could feedback.  By the nature of its design it MUST feedback or it would blow itself up.  Granted SS amps use NEGATIVE feedback.....but that only affects the tone....ie midrange > bass and treble.

Amp + Volume + speakers + guitar = feedback.

PAs feed back all the time.  There's no magic to it... generally, with guitars, lots of midrange plus volume, or if there's not a lot of midrange, just a lot of volume--add some distortion or other compression method and you get feedback.  I've gotten plenty of feedback out of modellers, starting with my original Pod, which I ran into an Ampeg V4 and later a Carvin 100-watt tube power amp, both through either a 2x12 or 4x12 cabinet.  I've got recordings of it, too, from 1997...

Like I said, it seems a bit odd that we are surprised that a SS device could feedback.  By the nature of its design it MUST feedback or it would blow itself up.  Granted SS amps use NEGATIVE feedback.....but that only affects the tone....ie midrange > bass and treble.

You're confusing negative feedback in circuitry terms, which is generally used to reduce distortion and increase headroom (and in tube amps too), with positive feedback, where an audio signal reinforces itself.

Amp + Volume + speakers + guitar = feedback.

Yes.

charger — Feb 07, 2012
Like I said, it seems a bit odd that we are surprised that a SS device could feedback.  By the nature of its design it MUST feedback or it would blow itself up.  Granted SS amps use NEGATIVE feedback.....but that only affects the tone....ie midrange > bass and treble.

You're confusing negative feedback in circuitry terms, which is generally used to reduce distortion and increase headroom (and in tube amps too), with positive feedback, where an audio signal reinforces itself.

Yup.  My bad.

Amp + Volume + speakers + guitar = feedback.

Yes.


8-)

The first Pods feedback was a squeal, not very musical to my ears...kind of like a microphonic pickup.
I think there are different kinds of feedback, some more musical than others.

Howie
I deleted the clip, I listened to it once or twice and decided it was not fit for human ears...the playing was shite and so was everything else.  ;D

I liked the first part.  Very usable as a backing drone tone IMO.   :)

Lance — Feb 07, 2012The first Pods feedback was a squeal, not very musical to my ears...kind of like a microphonic pickup.
I think there are different kinds of feedback, some more musical than others.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?  Seriously.

Lance, come on, I didn't even get to hear it, and even when rusty, or windy ( ;D) your playing is never bad.  

There are several "types" of feedback in our guitar playback devices.  The "good" feedback, which is some combination of sustain, harmonics, etc. which is musical and to varying degrees controllable, and there is the squealing kind which is not musical. Any device with speaker output can produce either.  I'm wondering if this is so surprising too you because like many, you normally played your POD or whatever through headphones.  Playing them through amps/speakers could always produce feedback.  Again though, the newer devices do it much better, IMO.  

charger — Feb 07, 2012[quote author=Lance link=1328360233/0#16 date=1328627138]The first Pods feedback was a squeal, not very musical to my ears...kind of like a microphonic pickup.
I think there are different kinds of feedback, some more musical than others.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?  Seriously.
Glad to know it's not just me.  I was beginning to think I was taking crazy pills.

actually, I heard the same thing more than once from my 2.0.  Depends on what you plugged it into.  I tried it into the stereo effects return of my GK 250 ML and it was bad.  For lack of a better term, a "whistling" type feedback.  Tried only a couple times to tame it... gave up almost immediately.  It was fine through my Classic 30 return.  It was fine through my M Audio monitors, but crap through one cheap mixer based system I tried.  And yes, I had the "what are you pugged into" screen set right in each case.  

I'm guessing impedance mismatching is involved.  Or Lance is crazy.  Crazy Feedback Lance, they call him in the wilderness of S.A.   LOL  

Ola Englund Profiling his Mesa Triple Rectifier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mnd9lj_ECho#

DreamTheaterRules — Feb 07, 2012Lance, come on, I didn't even get to hear it, and even when rusty, or windy ( ;D) your playing is never bad.  

There are several "types" of feedback in our guitar playback devices.  The "good" feedback, which is some combination of sustain, harmonics, etc. which is musical and to varying degrees controllable, and there is the squealing kind which is not musical. Any device with speaker output can produce either.  I'm wondering if this is so surprising too you because like many, you normally played your POD or whatever through headphones.  Playing them through amps/speakers could always produce feedback.  Again though, the newer devices do it much better, IMO.  

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11425853

Lance — Feb 08, 2012Ola Englund Profiling his Mesa Triple Rectifier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mnd9lj_ECho#

This is just crazy amazing....

Here is the follow up with Ola - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr2AFJZoRuU&feature=player_embedded

I am amazed...

KrankZilla — Feb 09, 2012Here is the follow up with Ola - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr2AFJZoRuU&feature=player_embedded

I am amazed...

He just sent me a message.
He has a bunch more Profiles he's about to share.

I've just been playing his Triple Rec Profile, it is frikking unbelievable, so very very brutal that my studio monitors sound like they're about to explode.  :)

Yeah Ola is a high gain tone guru...  he gets the best out of whatever he touches in that realm.

How much are these damn KPA's?  LOL....

Be patient...wait for the 3rd or 4th generation model. They're supposedly already considering a 19" rackmount version coupled with a power amp of some sorts to boot.

Ola also knows how to get massive bass tracks from the samples I've heard over the years. He does know heavy tones period, gotta give him that.

LOL, my budget dictates that I must be the most patient person on the planet...

Kabala — Feb 09, 2012
Be patient...wait for the 3rd or 4th generation model. They're supposedly already considering a 19" rackmount version coupled with a power amp of some sorts to boot.

I hear they've had the electronics done for a month, but can't figure out the best way to make it look fugly as all hell yet...  ;)

(Me likey rack gear!  :D )

KrankZilla — Feb 09, 2012Yeah Ola is a high gain tone guru...  he gets the best out of whatever he touches in that realm.

He's got some videos up if the pod had that sound insanely brutal. In the hands of the right player, any modern modeler can do the ultra-heavy stuff.

charger — Feb 10, 2012[quote author=KrankZilla link=1328360233/25#27 date=1328827088]Yeah Ola is a high gain tone guru...  he gets the best out of whatever he touches in that realm.

any modern modeler can do the ultra-heavy stuff.

If Ola made the same video but didnt have a Kemper in the video, instead of the Kemper he used one of the modern modellers, and he A/Bd the tones like he did in the video, they would sound completely different...however in this video they sound the same.
It's simple, Kemper's taken digital guitar tone to another level, I don't know what level it is, or where the next level is, but right now this is a very enjoyable level.

I agree, i've listened to his Pod HD clips and some Axe FX ones and the funny thing is, the Pod by itself sounds ok, until you A/B it and then you realize it still has a bit of that blanket over everything effect going on.  They just can't seem to shake that completely.

I don't think they were the same. the kemper one had more low end. I understand that the tweaking part comes next, but stiil, it didn't sound the same in that video.

I dunno, it sounds great, but I just don't want an "amp" that uses firmware ever again. I can't get interested in this crap no matter how good it sounds.

I'd have to sound like total shit before I'd consider doing it again (digital modelling)... I'll take an OK tone over the tweakfest, thanks. not to mention that I get something I like and then.. oh! planned obsolescence, buy the v.2 one! oh, sorry, firmware update... your patches have to be retweaked. just fuck it, my amp doesn't talk to the fucking internet and that's just fine with me.


as an addendum, I would like to point out to Lance: at no point in the post am I questioning your manhood, intelligence, hearing or anything of the sort. please don't freak out because I don't want a Kemper. thanks.

ironsheep — Feb 10, 2012I don't think they were the same. the kemper one had more low end. I understand that the tweaking part comes next, but stiil, it didn't sound the same in that video.

I'd have to sound like total shit before I'd consider doing it again (digital modelling)... I'll take an OK tone over the tweakfest, thanks. not to mention that I get something I like and then.. oh! planned obsolescence, buy the v.2 one! oh, sorry, firmware update... your patches have to be retweaked. just fuck it, my amp doesn't talk to the fucking internet and that's just fine with me.

I didn't think an earlier (other thread, might've been the Cornford) comparison was that great either, not bad, but different. The real one had more punch and less compression.

I read a similar comment this morning (regarding endless tweaking) on another board discussing the Kempler...

..."I think these are meant for the players that just can't tweak and dial in amps/rigs, so they wan't like %90 versions of them already finished and handed to them instead."  


But based on the clips, I do think it sounds better than anything of this kind to date, a game changer in the amp duping world, props to them. In the end though, *I* also can't get beyond the fact that the "profiles" are still "SIMS."

I do agree, the tweaking stuff can be an endless loop.  Especially the more options you have available - always wondering if there is something just a bit better if you just turn that knob a tiny bit.  Heck I still do it on my good old fashioned tube amps.  And yeah, firmware updates are another part of the loop, sometimes resetting you to zero...

Dunno.  I know I can't afford one, so it doesn't matter anyway.  And I love the tones I have.  Still wanting a Mesa in my stable tho, so this particular patch/profile caught my attention.  I still think the mini recto might fit the bill for me someday.  But too many other expenses right now.  

But I love listening to the clips and hearing the advances being made.  I think it's fascinating.

yeah, I think it sounds good - but not something I want to get into again.

the pod experience was great for getting a sense of what's what in the amp/cab/mic world... even if it wasn't exact. really helped point me in the right directions.

I got tired of the old "tube amps are good, digital is bad" line of argument back when... definitely not my argument these days. actual amps just work better for me, mostly because there isn't some dude that can, at his whim, reset the tonal quality of my gear with a patch or "update" surprise. nice to have a few things constant - it's not like I'm short of variables with the non-digital stuff I have. but, everything has it's purpose and intended audience - that more options are available for people to choose from... that's definitely good imo.

but I still don't want one. ;)

Hey Lance, just out of idle curiosity - any chance of a non profiling kemper device?  One that can use and tweak the profiles, but not actually do the profiling.  Wondering if there is enough (or any) cost savings to make a lower priced model that does not actually profile.  Basically a high end pod.

KrankZilla — Feb 10, 2012Hey Lance, just out of idle curiosity - any chance of a non profiling kemper device?  One that can use and tweak the profiles, but not actually do the profiling.  Wondering if there is enough (or any) cost savings to make a lower priced model that does not actually profile.  Basically a high end pod.

Nothing like that mentioned so far...I don't think it will happen.
Keep in mind, it's made in Germany, not designed in Germany and made in China, I think that's why it cost so much.

ironsheep — Feb 10, 2012as an addendum, I would like to point out to Lance: at no point in the post am I questioning your manhood, intelligence, hearing or anything of the sort. please don't freak out because I don't want a Kemper. thanks.

I know that, Sheep, all good.  :)

Well, finally they've arrived in the USA and Sweetwater are shipping, so welcome to the Americans.

This guy just got his, posted a quick clip.
http://soundcloud.com/johnny-navarro-lv/johnnys-kemper-blues-1/s-bpfFH

When they come out with a model that can profile Sheep's playing let me know.  ;) :D

CraigBert — Feb 11, 2012When they come out with a model that can profile Sheep's playing let me know.  ;) :D

When they do Sheep will buy one, just to have a backup in case he forgets how to play like himself.  ;D

charger — Feb 07, 2012[quote author=Lance link=1328360233/0#16 date=1328627138]The first Pods feedback was a squeal, not very musical to my ears...kind of like a microphonic pickup.
I think there are different kinds of feedback, some more musical than others.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?  Seriously.

Watch from 6:00 on this video...or watch the entire video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NaDVof9Ovw

Lance — Feb 13, 2012[quote author=charger link=1328360233/0#18 date=1328644030][quote author=Lance link=1328360233/0#16 date=1328627138]The first Pods feedback was a squeal, not very musical to my ears...kind of like a microphonic pickup.
I think there are different kinds of feedback, some more musical than others.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?  Seriously.

Watch from 6:00 on this video...or watch the entire video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NaDVof9Ovw



12 mins of blabla and not a single note played? Rubbish!

Lance — Feb 13, 2012[quote author=charger link=1328360233/0#18 date=1328644030][quote author=Lance link=1328360233/0#16 date=1328627138]The first Pods feedback was a squeal, not very musical to my ears...kind of like a microphonic pickup.
I think there are different kinds of feedback, some more musical than others.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?  Seriously.

Watch from 6:00 on this video...or watch the entire video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NaDVof9Ovw


Blah blah blah, "it was rich, warm feedback".

If I recorded a video and told you how awesome the feedback was from my Pod, would you repost it for people?

charger — Feb 13, 2012[quote author=Lance link=1328360233/25#45 date=1329131645][quote author=charger link=1328360233/0#18 date=1328644030][quote author=Lance link=1328360233/0#16 date=1328627138]The first Pods feedback was a squeal, not very musical to my ears...kind of like a microphonic pickup.
I think there are different kinds of feedback, some more musical than others.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?  Seriously.

Watch from 6:00 on this video...or watch the entire video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NaDVof9Ovw


If I recorded a video and told you how awesome the feedback was from my Pod, would you repost it for people?


No, because no ones ever heard of you.  ;)

funny, I've heard of charger but not Sean Beavan... go figure.