The Watering Hole

I'm shocked no one's talking about it. I guess because it's just ridiculous. What is there really to say? Of course, I'm me, so you know I've got a book for it... ;)

I like Gary Johnson and Bill Weld, but they're just old-school socially-liberal, fiscally-conservative Republicans pretending to be Libertarians (which is not an entirely bad thing...)

Jill Stein has the same stink that all pandering leftists have, which is the stink of a perennial loser, so she's not an option. I mean, just her inability to fully speak out accepting science when it comes to vaccines and GMOs counts her out for me. The Greens and Libertarians (and any other minor party looking for relevance) need to stop trying for the brass ring and start building from the ground up - get elected in local elections first and build strength from there. Even Dan Savage (not a political commentator) gets that one...

Like any rational Bernie supporter, #ImToleratingHer for this one, because the more I've actually looked at the real evidence of her "crookedness" there's so much of it that's just not real. I'm shocked that people are such rubes who believe stupid, long-debunked conspiracy bullshit because they don't like her personally for whatever reason. Even the idea that she's "bought by Wall Street" doesn't fly when you look at her voting record as a Senator from Wall Street's home state. Mind you, I have NEVER liked her, and I do think she's slimy. Just not slimy like her major opponent.

Speaking of whom, the narcissistic orange dumpster fire called Donald J. Trump is basically stoking fear and hatred everywhere he goes and bullshitting about every topic that comes up. Not sure exactly why, other than it's his ticket to success with a certain (white) segment of the population, but he's provided very little substance to back up his "I can fix your problems" boasts. It's shocking how many intelligent people I know are buying into his crap because they're scared and not really thinking clearly. It's pathetic.

We should stop blaming the government for our problems and start blaming ourselves. We're the dipshits that elected all these losers. We're the dipshits that allow our electoral system to be fueled by cash rather than taking responsibility for ensuring our representatives are driven more by what we need than what a select few donors want. And we're the dipshits who allowed it to come down to an ignoramus who has no business being given political power and someone pretty much no one really likes.

Thoughts?
Tripper

I've posted enough (too much) already elsewhere.  Johnson's the closest in his views to what I'd want, but he's just too, I don't know... bland?  I think it's probably too late and we're already boiled.  Bye bye American as it was meant to be!  :(

You love that image. :) It comes out every year, it seems.

But it's our fault. We don't check power in this country because we're either too lazy, too stupid, or too deluded that someday we'll possess it.
Tripper

Well, we have a choice of picking the Clinton, whom we know is "slimy", or the dumpster dude???? But, we don't know if he's slimy,  yet. And, why are we putting him in jail, he hasn't done anything awful, yet.

I do blame government for some of our problems. Nothing wrong with that as long as I have point, with some data or something. And, thats easily come by. We have 2 choices. And whats common between those 2 choices are seas of cash.

I have a problem with career politicians, as you may know. I despise the notion of it, literally. So, no way am I voting for her. I don't think a problem with our political machine is going to be fixed by part of the problem with our political machine. I mean.... it's like having a bearing on a trailer go out and putting another bad bearing in it's place expecting it to be fixed. Yep.... insanity.

Trump hits on frustrated white folks. Pure and simple. He's embarrassing. Especially after hearing Obama speak for eight years.

So, If this Johnson guy polls at 20% a week or 2 before the election, I'll vote for him. Otherwise, I'm going with Trump. And, that's embarrassing too.

Look, we have to set term limits on the congress and the senate. I would be in favor of the same as the Presidents. But nothing will change until they change. And guess what, people ain't got enough since to figure that out. Example John McCain etc etc. that is the problem. The President will actually do what those people allow, and not much more. The President alone can't do much. Example.... President Obama. Although he did way more than I expected.

I'm also, and more likely, considering not voting at all. Considering the choices, I don't find that embarrassing at all.  

HA HA HA!!! That's fucking hilarious, Hook!

How can you even say we don't know Trump is slimy? SCORES of people coming out with their stories of him breaking contracts and paying less than he agreed to. Bullying tactics and lawsuits galore. He's the SLIMIEST candidate ever. Slimier than John Edwards, even. He's WAY slimier than Clinton! Plus he's a narcissistic asshole who knows nothing and bullshits his way through everything. He's the most pathetic joke that has ever been as successful in a run for major office in this country. Seriously. People are dumb enough to say things like "he tells it like it is" or "at least he's honest". No he's not! He's just a dick.

Look, I get the "career politicians are bad" notion. I get it, and I'm on board - I hate political parties and the way our government can be bought as much as the next guy. But the idea of actually casting a vote for someone horrifyingly unqualified for a job like Trump simply on that basis is more embarrassing than anything.

I realize how hard it must be for people who carry the (largely-irrational) hatred of Hillary Clinton that's been stoked by the media for the past 25 years. I know I used to carry it, too, until I did more research. I still find her personality grating and her oratory style anachronistic and irritating. But sadly she's the best chance this country has right now. There's no way Johnson and Weld will get the percentages to have a chance.

I wish us luck if people are stupid enough to make it so that orange dumpster fire of a doll-hair-covered meatbag manages to dupe the low-information populace of this country enough to get them out to vote his pathetic ass in.

But in life, and on the long vacation he's going to take when he loses, I wish the orange dumpster fire well. I hope he's happy. :)

Tripper

Tripper — Aug 14, 2016HA HA HA!!! That's fucking hilarious, Hook!

How can you even say we don't know Trump is slimy? SCORES of people coming out with their stories of him breaking contracts and paying less than he agreed to. Bullying tactics and lawsuits galore. He's the SLIMIEST candidate ever. Slimier than John Edwards, even. He's WAY slimier than Clinton! Plus he's a narcissistic asshole who knows nothing and bullshits his way through everything. He's the most pathetic joke that has ever been as successful in a run for major office in this country. Seriously. People are dumb enough to say things like "he tells it like it is" or "at least he's honest". No he's not! He's just a dick.

Look, I get the "career politicians are bad" notion. I get it, and I'm on board - I hate political parties and the way our government can be bought as much as the next guy. But the idea of actually casting a vote for someone horrifyingly unqualified for a job like Trump simply on that basis is more embarrassing than anything.

I realize how hard it must be for people who carry the (largely-irrational) hatred of Hillary Clinton that's been stoked by the media for the past 25 years. I know I used to carry it, too, until I did more research. I still find her personality grating and her oratory style anachronistic and irritating. But sadly she's the best chance this country has right now. There's no way Johnson and Weld will get the percentages to have a chance.

I wish us luck if people are stupid enough to make it so that orange dumpster fire of a doll-hair-covered meatbag manages to dupe the low-information populace of this country enough to get them out to vote his pathetic ass in.

But in life, and on the long vacation he's going to take when he loses, I wish the orange dumpster fire well. I hope he's happy. :)

Tripper

Maybe you under estimate how much hate I have for even the possibility of a person having a career in politics. And, how strongly I believe that that is a majority of our problems and has been for years. We elect a President and grade his performance as if he had something to do with things. We should be grading the congress and senates performance.

That brings me to my next point. What damage can he do? Make America look stupid for 4 years, maybe.

The reason he even has a chance is pretty much the same as my reason not to vote for Clinton.

I kinda think politics are in the midst of huge change, I think positive change in the long run. We are currently experiencing growing pains. I see people having way more of a open mind when it comes to candidates, that's good.

But please, don't judge people's vote for Trump so harshly and in the same breath say your voting for Clinton.  ;D You killed your credibility there, pal.

They are both insanely awful choices. Probably should just.... leave it there. ;)

Credibility? If you truly believe they are both "insanely awful", you have shown that you are very uneducated about the candidates, as most people seem to be...

Clinton is not an awful choice unless you buy into the myth-making of the right-wing media and how it's infected the public discourse about her in general, which you obviously do if you think she's equivalent to a Trump vote. She's not a choice I'd make, and she does have SERIOUS entrenchment and waffling issues, but the complete joke that is Donald J. Trump forces my hand. He MUST NOT be elected president. Because even if he bails on the office when it got too hard (as I'm sure he would, since he's just a more rich and narcissistic version of that quitter from Alaska), we're left with a theocrat ignoramus like Mike Pence to replace him. It'd be far more than mere embarrassment if Trump becomes the president, I assure you. It could literally destabilize the world. But I guess that's nice, if you're into that sort of thing.

I mean, Bush was great, right? I guess if we travel to Europe we can all use those Canadian accents we mastered back in the aughts so we didn't sound like Americans back when he was our resident dumpster fire of a President. Mind you, I'd take him ANY DAY over Trump, Pence, or any of the dipshits that ran this time around for the GOP, but that's a super low bar that's set there.

Best of luck, my friend - for all of us. :)
Tripper

I don't even know what to contribute to this.  I mean, I can see people voting for Trump only because they really believe Hillary Clinton is the antichrist. Maybe they grew up in a cult?

I honestly can't see many people voting for Trump based on what he says.  I've found that people I've talked to don't say anything about what is good about Trump's positions or speeches or policies, other than that he's an outsider who isn't a career politician.  I have yet to talk to anyone (granted I live in California and hang out with people who are more like me than not) who agrees with what Trump says, and is voting for him based on that.

In the end, this is going to be an unusual event in our lifetimes, the chance to view an utter landslide. Hillary is currently at something like 90% to win. And I appreciate the wrecking ball Trump has taken to the Republicans. He's done more to destroy them than Democrats have done in the last 30 years.  It's about time the Pubs got their house in order, or split up, or something.

I think it'd be really good for there to be a Republican Party more like the GOP of the 70s and 80s, before the right-wing media brainwashing and the rise of the "Christian Conservative" or "Tea Party" Republicans turned it into the party of anti-intellectualism and fact denial.

I think a healthy debate on what can work is essential, but it should be founded in FACTS AND REASON, two things Trump avoids like the plague, and the modern GOP denies with almost as much verve in certain areas (if not most areas).

But the sad reality is that I think that until we get the polluting factor of money out of our electoral process and redistrict all the states so they are not gerrymandered, but rather geographic boxes of equal population, and perhaps build a few more strong political parties from the ground up to reduce the power of the Republicans and Democrats, we'll never get appropriate representation or rational discourse on a regular basis in Congress. Just more "I don't want to because YOU want to" obstructionist two-party horseshit.

Tripper

Tripper — Aug 15, 2016Credibility? If you truly believe they are both "insanely awful", you have shown that you are very uneducated about the candidates, as most people seem to be...

Clinton is not an awful choice unless you buy into the myth-making of the right-wing media and how it's infected the public discourse about her in general, which you obviously do if you think she's equivalent to a Trump vote. She's not a choice I'd make, and she does have SERIOUS entrenchment and waffling issues, but the complete joke that is Donald J. Trump forces my hand. He MUST NOT be elected president. Because even if he bails on the office when it got too hard (as I'm sure he would, since he's just a more rich and narcissistic version of that quitter from Alaska), we're left with a theocrat ignoramus like Mike Pence to replace him. It'd be far more than mere embarrassment if Trump becomes the president, I assure you. It could literally destabilize the world. But I guess that's nice, if you're into that sort of thing.

I mean, Bush was great, right? I guess if we travel to Europe we can all use those Canadian accents we mastered back in the aughts so we didn't sound like Americans back when he was our resident dumpster fire of a President. Mind you, I'd take him ANY DAY over Trump, Pence, or any of the dipshits that ran this time around for the GOP, but that's a super low bar that's set there.

Best of luck, my friend - for all of us. :)
Tripper

If you vote for Clinton knowing she's slimy , tell me why your position is better than any of the people voting for Trump.

charger — Aug 16, 2016I don't even know what to contribute to this.  I mean, I can see people voting for Trump only because they really believe Hillary Clinton is the antichrist. Maybe they grew up in a cult?

I honestly can't see many people voting for Trump based on what he says.  I've found that people I've talked to don't say anything about what is good about Trump's positions or speeches or policies, other than that he's an outsider who isn't a career politician.  I have yet to talk to anyone (granted I live in California and hang out with people who are more like me than not) who agrees with what Trump says, and is voting for him based on that.

In the end, this is going to be an unusual event in our lifetimes, the chance to view an utter landslide. Hillary is currently at something like 90% to win. And I appreciate the wrecking ball Trump has taken to the Republicans. He's done more to destroy them than Democrats have done in the last 30 years.  It's about time the Pubs got their house in order, or split up, or something.

I think your hatred for republicans is greater than your like for democrats.

The reality thats missing here is the fact that Americans voting tendencies are changing big time. We elected a black President, hell yes! We have a woman in the running for President with a more than good chance of winning. A dumbass like Trump has a freaking chance these days. I think the one thing Obama did do.... is invoke the people of this country to at least take a chance on that saying.... hope and change.

The big lie is that it matters so much who our President is.

Hookbender — Aug 16, 2016[quote author=Tripper link=1470686102/0#6 date=1471301337]Credibility? If you truly believe they are both "insanely awful", you have shown that you are very uneducated about the candidates, as most people seem to be...

Clinton is not an awful choice unless you buy into the myth-making of the right-wing media and how it's infected the public discourse about her in general, which you obviously do if you think she's equivalent to a Trump vote. She's not a choice I'd make, and she does have SERIOUS entrenchment and waffling issues, but the complete joke that is Donald J. Trump forces my hand. He MUST NOT be elected president. Because even if he bails on the office when it got too hard (as I'm sure he would, since he's just a more rich and narcissistic version of that quitter from Alaska), we're left with a theocrat ignoramus like Mike Pence to replace him. It'd be far more than mere embarrassment if Trump becomes the president, I assure you. It could literally destabilize the world. But I guess that's nice, if you're into that sort of thing.

I mean, Bush was great, right? I guess if we travel to Europe we can all use those Canadian accents we mastered back in the aughts so we didn't sound like Americans back when he was our resident dumpster fire of a President. Mind you, I'd take him ANY DAY over Trump, Pence, or any of the dipshits that ran this time around for the GOP, but that's a super low bar that's set there.

Best of luck, my friend - for all of us. :)
Tripper

If you vote for Clinton knowing she's slimy , tell me why your position is better than any of the people voting for Trump.



Very simple: Both are slimy, so that cancels out, and one person CAN do the job, the other one CAN'T. That's why my position is better: I care about competence. Trump voters largely do not care (read your previous post - even you don't seem to care: "What damage can he do? Make America look stupid for 4 years, maybe."). Or if they do, they think Clinton is not qualified because they've bought into some bullshit myth about her much like most of them did about President Obama. Comfortably inside their little right-wing media bubble...living in a fact-starved alternate reality.

I will vote for Clinton despite the fact that she seems a bit slimy to me because it's clear she can do the job well. She is more than capable, and more than qualified for the position. She will also nominate qualified people for the Supreme Court. Trump doesn't have the intellectual curiosity, manner, knowledge, nor skill set to handle it in any capacity. And his vice-presidential choice is pretty embarrassing and his Supreme Court nominees are likely to be Harriet Miers-level questionable.

Tripper

That's quite an opinion, Trip.

The reality is, we have a problem in government. They make stupid decisions regardless of their education, experience, you name it. So, to keep doing the same thing because you have some fear instilled in you that the President alone has the potential to destroy everything America has built mentality, your deluded.

If you think Clinton will do a good job... or is capable of doing a good job..... your deluded. And if you think that money is a problem in politics, why not vote for it? That's logical. Right? You know, keep doing the same thing over and over... expecting a different result. Yeah, insanity. You guessed it!

But if you want to fix complex problems, you have to think outside the small problem box. You should consider things that some would call, extreme. And that scares the hell out of people. He's can't do the job, he's a dick, he doesn't have experience, he has orange hair, he was a successful businessman....... and you have to say, wait, successful businessman. Hmmmmmm. Wonder if that would work in politics? Success, I mean. Who better than to fix our economy than a businessman, who probably took advantage of our own laws of the land, that you seem to shame for some reason, to see the importance of bringing factories back to America, for example. Fixing laws that give huge advantages to big business and criple small ones before they even give it a shot. Just a thought. But that would be more help to our country than anything Bush did. Or Obama, or Clinton, or Regan.

But nothing will change with the gods in the house and senate. Not until they die, get reborn, and decide to live in the clouds somewhere. Until then, the President could be Stratman. Just wouldn't matter much.

You are faulting, with a broad brush, people that are sick of the norm. They are desperate for fairness. Your gonna think I've lost my mind. But we could have a entirely different, and better country, by simply keeping our nose to ourselves. Our debt would be fucking way less. It's almost unbelievable at how many problems can be solved by simply doing just that. We could pay China off in 2 years if we did that. :o

Ah fuck it though. Vote for Clinton. I'll still love ya.  

But if you want to have a argument about who's the worst choice as President, based on facts and experience, I'd have to say you lost that one before you even started. We don't know how Trump would be as President. So you have a illogical argument to begin with. Are you drinkin little buddy?

Wow... Someone is Trippin'!!!  :o

YAY! I GET TO DO MY LINE-BY-LINE THING! Here we go...

Hookbender — Aug 17, 2016That's quite an opinion, Trip.

Isn't it, though?

The reality is, we have a problem in government. They make stupid decisions regardless of their education, experience, you name it. So, to keep doing the same thing because you have some fear instilled in you that the President alone has the potential to destroy everything America has built mentality, your deluded.

I don't believe that, but keep setting up those strawmen so you have something material to attack pointlessly. You could have read my whole post and understood it, but it's you, so... ;)

If you think Clinton will do a good job... or is capable of doing a good job..... your deluded.

She is more capable than Donald J. Trump, and that's enough for me this year.

And if you think that money is a problem in politics, why not vote for it? That's logical. Right? You know, keep doing the same thing over and over... expecting a different result. Yeah, insanity. You guessed it!

Money is a problem. Ignorance is a BIGGER problem. And to crown it by electing an ignoramus like Donald Trump would be even more insane. My guy didn't make it. I'm holding my nose and choosing something else. Clinton is a better choice than Trump, flaws and all. Period.

But if you want to fix complex problems, you have to think outside the small problem box. You should consider things that some would call, extreme. And that scares the hell out of people.

Yup. That's why Bernie couldn't get enough traction among Democrats to get the votes he needed. Fear of thinking big.

He's can't do the job, he's a dick, he doesn't have experience, he has orange hair, he was a successful businessman....... and you have to say, wait, successful businessman. Hmmmmmm. Wonder if that would work in politics?

Since he's a crooked businessman, he'll fit right in. Yes, crooked. His success was built on his father's slumlord fortune and a lot of screwing people over. And he's not as successful as he claims. Otherwise he'd have no problem releasing his tax returns like every other presidential candidate in the past 45 years.

Success, I mean. Who better than to fix our economy than a businessman, who probably took advantage of our own laws of the land, that you seem to shame for some reason, to see the importance of bringing factories back to America, for example. Fixing laws that give huge advantages to big business and criple small ones before they even give it a shot. Just a thought. But that would be more help to our country than anything Bush did. Or Obama, or Clinton, or Regan.

If you sincerely think his trade ideas are workable in this world, you are pathetically ignorant about international trade (which is typical of Trump supporters). THE MANUFACTURING JOBS AREN'T COMING BACK. You know why? Americans are too cheap and too underpaid as it is to afford American-made goods. Even Trump himself doesn't use American manufacturers. Why? Because he wants money for his companies and himself more than he wants to put Americans to work. So he's told us through his actions what he thinks of American workers. And you should really look into people who work for his companies and see what they say. It's pretty clear what sort of businessman he is.

But nothing will change with the gods in the house and senate. Not until they die, get reborn, and decide to live in the clouds somewhere. Until then, the President could be Stratman. Just wouldn't matter much.

That is true to an extent, but President Obama has done everything in his power to get things done despite them doing everything they can to prevent him getting anything done. The executive branch has power, but you are totally correct that things won't change until the House and Senate change. And that would happen under my districting plans. And it could happen to A LOT of incumbents this year. People are tired of this shit.

You are faulting, with a broad brush, people that are sick of the norm. They are desperate for fairness.

And you think Trump is the more "fair" candidate? Wow. I'd love to see you make this case...

Your gonna think I've lost my mind. But we could have a entirely different, and better country, by simply keeping our nose to ourselves. Our debt would be fucking way less. It's almost unbelievable at how many problems can be solved by simply doing just that. We could pay China off in 2 years if we did that. :o

I don't think you've lost your mind. I just don't think you've absorbed enough real information into it to make a proper judgement. Keeping our nose to ourselves is a wonderful idea. It doesn't solve the issues with international trade that could arise without our support of certain countries who are trade partners and military allies. Is it worth a shot? That's something we can agree on, for sure, as long as it doesn't mean we become a second-tier country.

Ah fuck it though. Vote for Clinton. I'll still love ya.

Thanks for that, man. Same if you vote for Trump. I've been watching that guy for years (since I was about 12) and I know he's a narcissistic pile of dogshit who cares about no one but Donald Trump, so I can't get past that reality. He's a dirty businessman who cheats people and doesn't pay his bills. Trump doesn't care about anything but appearing to be the best. Appearing to. Not ACTUALLY being the best. He doesn't even care if he earns it. Clinton's a different kind of narcissist. She wants to be remembered for being great because of actual accomplishments. I'll always take that kind of narcissist, because they're willing to actually do the work.

To be honest, I hate that I have to defend her, and I hate that I have to vote for her, but Trump is that much of an orange dumpster fire of a person. He's a walking embodiment of everything wrong about America's greed culture, from his privileged upbringing to his scamming of the system for his own ends. Add to that his big mouth, thin skin, and inability to take any criticism, and you're just begging for him to make a rash decision and get us into another set of wars we can't afford and begin an assault on the first amendment.

But if you want to have a argument about who's the worst choice as President, based on facts and experience, I'd have to say you lost that one before you even started. We don't know how Trump would be as President. So you have a illogical argument to begin with. Are you drinkin little buddy?

I think you're confused about which facts and experience I'm talking about. The facts of how they've behaved thus far, and the experience that they've had thus far. Not our facts and experience about them being President. I think you're drinking if you think that's the "facts and experience" to which I was referring...

By the way, have you read this? A nice window into Trump's psyche... http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all

Thanks for engaging and discussing, my friend. I hope all is well with you! :)
Tripper

Great to hear from you as well Trip!

Yep. Your probably right about the vote for Clinton over Trump thing, if you want things to stay the same. Which they will. Having said that, I do think, if she's willing and has the energy to fight for it again, she could accomplish massive improvements with Obamacare. That's about all the expectation I can come up with right now.

But Clinton lies so damn much. I was listening to her one day and she was going on and on about creating $50 a year jobs or some shit like that, rebuilding our highways, etc etc. No, the President can't create jobs. Unless it's government jobs that just get billed to the middle class. And, where is the money gonna come from to do all this road work and crap? Is it just going to magically appear? Anyone look at the debt lately?

I agree that Trump was a bit shifty, but he did what our laws allowed him to do. Otherwise, he'd be in jail.

250 million or so people in America, and these are the best we can do? Pretty damn scary!!

I'll read your article now.

God that was a boring read. That guy sounds like Trump took his lolly pop and he never got over it.

Hookbender — Aug 16, 2016[quote author=charger link=1470686102/0#7 date=1471373963]I don't even know what to contribute to this.  I mean, I can see people voting for Trump only because they really believe Hillary Clinton is the antichrist. Maybe they grew up in a cult?

I honestly can't see many people voting for Trump based on what he says.  I've found that people I've talked to don't say anything about what is good about Trump's positions or speeches or policies, other than that he's an outsider who isn't a career politician.  I have yet to talk to anyone (granted I live in California and hang out with people who are more like me than not) who agrees with what Trump says, and is voting for him based on that.

In the end, this is going to be an unusual event in our lifetimes, the chance to view an utter landslide. Hillary is currently at something like 90% to win. And I appreciate the wrecking ball Trump has taken to the Republicans. He's done more to destroy them than Democrats have done in the last 30 years.  It's about time the Pubs got their house in order, or split up, or something.

I think your hatred for republicans is greater than your like for democrats.


Is this supposed to be a news flash?  I'm super liberal and I've been a Democrat my whole life.  

Hookbender — Aug 17, 2016Great to hear from you as well Trip!

Yep. Your probably right about the vote for Clinton over Trump thing, if you want things to stay the same. Which they will. Having said that, I do think, if she's willing and has the energy to fight for it again, she could accomplish massive improvements with Obamacare. That's about all the expectation I can come up with right now.

But Clinton lies so damn much. I was listening to her one day and she was going on and on about creating $50 a year jobs or some shit like that, rebuilding our highways, etc etc. No, the President can't create jobs. Unless it's government jobs that just get billed to the middle class. And, where is the money gonna come from to do all this road work and crap? Is it just going to magically appear? Anyone look at the debt lately?

I agree that Trump was a bit shifty, but he did what our laws allowed him to do. Otherwise, he'd be in jail.

250 million or so people in America, and these are the best we can do? Pretty damn scary!!

I'll read your article now.

There are 350 million people in America.

I don't care about whether Trump is a successful politician, or "we need an outsider."  If you think that, tell me how many times you have voted against the incumbent in the house and senate races?  How many times when you go to the ballot do you vote for the "outsider" on the ticket?  Because everyone says government sucks, and it needs to be turned over, but then the VAST majority of people re-elect their congresspeople.  It happens every election year.

As far as Trump's business acumen, I'm not sure what it even is. You can't exactly bankrupt the US to restructure debt... and that's one of his main tools.  

But besides that, I don't agree with his policy on refugees, Mexicans, Muslims, or abortion, and I can't vote for someone who hates so many people so much.  I'm only second generation myself, and I've seen the good that immigrants, even Muslim immigrants, can do in this country firsthand, and I know many Mexican immigrants, legal and illegal, myself, and I also know a lot of women.  I can't vast what I would consider to be a vote against their very existence.  So Trump is out for me.  Sorry.

charger — Aug 18, 2016[quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/0#16 date=1471470552]Great to hear from you as well Trip!

Yep. Your probably right about the vote for Clinton over Trump thing, if you want things to stay the same. Which they will. Having said that, I do think, if she's willing and has the energy to fight for it again, she could accomplish massive improvements with Obamacare. That's about all the expectation I can come up with right now.

But Clinton lies so damn much. I was listening to her one day and she was going on and on about creating $50 a year jobs or some shit like that, rebuilding our highways, etc etc. No, the President can't create jobs. Unless it's government jobs that just get billed to the middle class. And, where is the money gonna come from to do all this road work and crap? Is it just going to magically appear? Anyone look at the debt lately?

I agree that Trump was a bit shifty, but he did what our laws allowed him to do. Otherwise, he'd be in jail.

250 million or so people in America, and these are the best we can do? Pretty damn scary!!

I'll read your article now.

There are 350 million people in America.

I don't care about whether Trump is a successful politician, or "we need an outsider."  If you think that, tell me how many times you have voted against the incumbent in the house and senate races?  How many times when you go to the ballot do you vote for the "outsider" on the ticket?  Because everyone says government sucks, and it needs to be turned over, but then the VAST majority of people re-elect their congresspeople.  It happens every election year.

As far as Trump's business acumen, I'm not sure what it even is. You can't exactly bankrupt the US to restructure debt... and that's one of his main tools.  

But besides that, I don't agree with his policy on refugees, Mexicans, Muslims, or abortion, and I can't vote for someone who hates so many people so much.  I'm only second generation myself, and I've seen the good that immigrants, even Muslim immigrants, can do in this country firsthand, and I know many Mexican immigrants, legal and illegal, myself, and I also know a lot of women.  I can't vast what I would consider to be a vote against their very existence.  So Trump is out for me.  Sorry.


Ive never voted for anyone in the congress or senate currently, period. Hows that?

I'm not intending to make anyone mad but the reality is, we have to stop all people coming across our boarders. If for nothing else, the safety of people already here. At least for a short term. I use to feel the same way you do about Muslims, but I'm convinced now that they must be stopped as well. It's not about hating people, it's about protecting the people that are here. And, our country as a whole. Your just spewing emotional BS. Your head can't be that deep in the sand. Your being liberal, and your liberal stance, should not be put before the country you live in. You should still be able to reason, and see the importance of stopping all these people from coming here.

I really could care less who you vote for, no need to apologize to me.

charger — Aug 18, 2016[quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/0#10 date=1471387665][quote author=charger link=1470686102/0#7 date=1471373963]I don't even know what to contribute to this.  I mean, I can see people voting for Trump only because they really believe Hillary Clinton is the antichrist. Maybe they grew up in a cult?

I honestly can't see many people voting for Trump based on what he says.  I've found that people I've talked to don't say anything about what is good about Trump's positions or speeches or policies, other than that he's an outsider who isn't a career politician.  I have yet to talk to anyone (granted I live in California and hang out with people who are more like me than not) who agrees with what Trump says, and is voting for him based on that.

In the end, this is going to be an unusual event in our lifetimes, the chance to view an utter landslide. Hillary is currently at something like 90% to win. And I appreciate the wrecking ball Trump has taken to the Republicans. He's done more to destroy them than Democrats have done in the last 30 years.  It's about time the Pubs got their house in order, or split up, or something.

I think your hatred for republicans is greater than your like for democrats.


Is this supposed to be a news flash?  I'm super liberal and I've been a Democrat my whole life.  

No, it's a call to reason.

Hookbender — Aug 19, 2016
Ive never voted for anyone in the congress or senate currently, period. Hows that?

I'm not intending to make anyone mad but the reality is, we have to stop all people coming across our boarders. If for nothing else, the safety of people already here. At least for a short term. I use to feel the same way you do about Muslims, but I'm convinced now that they must be stopped as well. It's not about hating people, it's about protecting the people that are here. And, our country as a whole. Your just spewing emotional BS. Your head can't be that deep in the sand. Your being liberal, and your liberal stance, should not be put before the country you live in. You should still be able to reason, and see the importance of stopping all these people from coming here.

The idea that we close our (sic) "boarders" is fundamentally un-American. If you're okay with that, then just know that you're going against everything this country stands for - freedom, opportunity, diversity.

Your opinion is a fear-based one, not a reality-based one, and you're actually the one being emotional here. Look at the statistics on immigrants, illegal and legal. They commit fewer crimes and fewer terrorist acts than natural-born Americans. That's a fact.

Maybe look in the mirror yourself and understand that you've been duped by the media fear machine, and you're living in a false reality that everyone's out to get you.

No wonder Trump is so appealing to you...he's your strongman daddy that can protect us from the scary boogeymen!

That explains EVERYTHING. :)
Tripper

Tripper — Aug 19, 2016[quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/0#20 date=1471613178]
Ive never voted for anyone in the congress or senate currently, period. Hows that?

I'm not intending to make anyone mad but the reality is, we have to stop all people coming across our boarders. If for nothing else, the safety of people already here. At least for a short term. I use to feel the same way you do about Muslims, but I'm convinced now that they must be stopped as well. It's not about hating people, it's about protecting the people that are here. And, our country as a whole. Your just spewing emotional BS. Your head can't be that deep in the sand. Your being liberal, and your liberal stance, should not be put before the country you live in. You should still be able to reason, and see the importance of stopping all these people from coming here.

The idea that we close our (sic) "boarders" is fundamentally un-American. If you're okay with that, then just know that you're going against everything this country stands for - freedom, opportunity, diversity.

Your opinion is a fear-based one, not a reality-based one, and you're actually the one being emotional here. Look at the statistics on immigrants, illegal and legal. They commit fewer crimes and fewer terrorist acts than natural-born Americans. That's a fact.

Maybe look in the mirror yourself and understand that you've been duped by the media fear machine, and you're living in a false reality that everyone's out to get you.

No wonder Trump is so appealing to you...he's your strongman daddy that can protect us from the scary boogeymen!

That explains EVERYTHING. :)
Tripper

See, thats just a extreme liberal position. It doesn't take into consideration the change in times. And, you know that, you may ignore that, but you know it. My position reflects the reality that is, not a dreamed up implanted fear from the wonderful republican media. I assure you.

I never said anything about anyone committing crimes. Not sure why you brought that up.

And no, Trump isn't anything to me, and I still may not vote at all. And, I am still considering alternative candidates, as I've mentioned. So lets not get ahead of ourselves here. And, lets debate the actual contents of my post.

You want people to stop coming across the borders. Why? You said for "the safety of people already here. At least for a short term." Which is what Trump said, pretty much. But that's not the point. What does that imply?

I could infer that you mean terrorists or other baddies would try to cross the border to hurt the people already here. Which is why I brought up the immigration statistics on crime and terrorism. Immigrants are what the people crossing the border become once they cross the border. If they're not causing as many problems as the people already here, then how can we deduce that closing the borders makes us safer without first assuming that there are more bad people trying to get in, even though history tells us that once they cross the border they're LESS dangerous?

In my view, your ideas about Muslims are absurd. I'm not saying that there aren't a shit ton of them in the middle east who are buying a lot of nonsense from ISIS and other hate groups, but overall their percentages are TINY, and making it about Muslims in general is a fear-based, ignorant perspective. It's much more complicated than that. If you work immigration for Muslims the way we're doing it now, which is deeply questioning the history of each individual that seeks to enter the country, rather than just focusing on their religious faith, then you'll get a better result that is more along the lines of American ideals.

Ideals that we aspire to no matter how dangerous the world may seem.

So we can agree to disagree, I guess. Have a great rest of your day! :)
Tripper

We have laws here Trip. There are legal ways to do things, and illegal ways to do things. The illegal way needs to stop today. And I think people coming into this country in any way needs to be suspended, for now. Lots of reasons to do that. Lots of reason/ways to do things legally as well. That was my point. Doesn't matter what tag you put on what group, I still think it's the right thing to do.

I'm not saying people coming here are committing crimes. I'm saying the potential for bad guys is probably higher now for that to be possible than ever before. Thats just a guess on my part, based on pretty much open boarders. It would be way more logical, for example, to protect our boarders rather than go fight 8 wars in the middle east not understanding what the fuck we're doing to start with. Not to mention, I think our warlords have about as much understanding about the middle east as I have of whats inside this computer I'm hacking away at right now.

I don't care about ideals, smoke screens, rabbits farting and causing global warming. Just doesn't interest me. I care about common sense solutions to problems that we can come up with a long term fix for later. Immediate short term solution. And no, I wouldn't give a damn about hurting anyone's feelings in the process. It's, imo, what we need to do, right now. It's not about fear, it's simply common sense. The logical first step in solving the problem or problems we could potentially face soon. No reason to gamble on this subject.

Hookbender — Aug 19, 2016[quote author=charger link=1470686102/0#19 date=1471563684][quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/0#16 date=1471470552]Great to hear from you as well Trip!

Yep. Your probably right about the vote for Clinton over Trump thing, if you want things to stay the same. Which they will. Having said that, I do think, if she's willing and has the energy to fight for it again, she could accomplish massive improvements with Obamacare. That's about all the expectation I can come up with right now.

But Clinton lies so damn much. I was listening to her one day and she was going on and on about creating $50 a year jobs or some shit like that, rebuilding our highways, etc etc. No, the President can't create jobs. Unless it's government jobs that just get billed to the middle class. And, where is the money gonna come from to do all this road work and crap? Is it just going to magically appear? Anyone look at the debt lately?

I agree that Trump was a bit shifty, but he did what our laws allowed him to do. Otherwise, he'd be in jail.

250 million or so people in America, and these are the best we can do? Pretty damn scary!!

I'll read your article now.

There are 350 million people in America.

I don't care about whether Trump is a successful politician, or "we need an outsider."  If you think that, tell me how many times you have voted against the incumbent in the house and senate races?  How many times when you go to the ballot do you vote for the "outsider" on the ticket?  Because everyone says government sucks, and it needs to be turned over, but then the VAST majority of people re-elect their congresspeople.  It happens every election year.

As far as Trump's business acumen, I'm not sure what it even is. You can't exactly bankrupt the US to restructure debt... and that's one of his main tools.  

But besides that, I don't agree with his policy on refugees, Mexicans, Muslims, or abortion, and I can't vote for someone who hates so many people so much.  I'm only second generation myself, and I've seen the good that immigrants, even Muslim immigrants, can do in this country firsthand, and I know many Mexican immigrants, legal and illegal, myself, and I also know a lot of women.  I can't vast what I would consider to be a vote against their very existence.  So Trump is out for me.  Sorry.


Ive never voted for anyone in the congress or senate currently, period. Hows that?

I'm not intending to make anyone mad but the reality is, we have to stop all people coming across our boarders. If for nothing else, the safety of people already here. At least for a short term. I use to feel the same way you do about Muslims, but I'm convinced now that they must be stopped as well. It's not about hating people, it's about protecting the people that are here. And, our country as a whole. Your just spewing emotional BS. Your head can't be that deep in the sand. Your being liberal, and your liberal stance, should not be put before the country you live in. You should still be able to reason, and see the importance of stopping all these people from coming here.

I really could care less who you vote for, no need to apologize to me.


I mean, I am half Egyptian, my father is a Muslim 1st-generation immigrant from Egypt, so I'm just not going to agree with you there. But I think you definitely have the right candidate. I'm not actually trying to convince you to vote any other way, I think if you vote for Trump with a clear conscience, and agree with his policies, well, at least you know what you are doing.  The fact that you condone his racism tells me pretty much everything I need to know about any discussion with you over this.

Hookbender — Aug 19, 2016We have laws here Trip. There are legal ways to do things, and illegal ways to do things. The illegal way needs to stop today. And I think people coming into this country in any way needs to be suspended, for now. Lots of reasons to do that. Lots of reason/ways to do things legally as well. That was my point. Doesn't matter what tag you put on what group, I still think it's the right thing to do.

I'm not saying people coming here are committing crimes. I'm saying the potential for bad guys is probably higher now for that to be possible than ever before.

There's your fear talking.

Thats just a guess on my part, based on pretty much open boarders.

This statement indicates you know very little about our borders and how difficult it is for people to get into this country. (or our boarders)

It would be way more logical, for example, to protect our boarders rather than go fight 8 wars in the middle east not understanding what the fuck we're doing to start with. Not to mention, I think our warlords have about as much understanding about the middle east as I have of whats inside this computer I'm hacking away at right now.

Seriously? No wonder Trump seems qualified to you.

I don't care about ideals, smoke screens, rabbits farting and causing global warming. Just doesn't interest me. I care about common sense solutions to problems that we can come up with a long term fix for later. Immediate short term solution. And no, I wouldn't give a damn about hurting anyone's feelings in the process. It's, imo, what we need to do, right now. It's not about fear, it's simply common sense. The logical first step in solving the problem or problems we could potentially face soon. No reason to gamble on this subject.

No, it's actually fear, not common sense. Because you don't know the facts. Nor do you seem to care to learn them. Based on your statements, this willful lack of intellectual curiosity on the topic, you are EXACTLY the type of person who can be hoodwinked by a Trump-like candidate and a sensationalist media.

Closing borders that are already not particularly porous does NOTHING to make us safer. Do you think we should stop the flow of information from outside the country, too, so Americans can't be exposed to radical Islamic teaching? I mean, that's what causes most of the problems with domestic terrorism. People self-radicalize via the internet. Are we North Korea or China? Do we need to lock that down, too?

But let's step back further: Do you think that you're fundamentally unsafe because bad things like Paris, Nice, San Bernardino, and Orlando happen? Not one bit. The culture of "it could happen here" fear-mongering has got to stop. YES WE KNOW IT CAN HAPPEN HERE. So can an asteroid hitting the earth. So can a horrifying flood like in Baton Rouge. So can a racist piece of shit shooting up your church, like in South Carolina. The question you should ask is: IS IT LIKELY TO HAPPEN HERE? Ensuring that the mentally ill and those with terrorist ties wind up with people watching them and without easy access to weaponry is not a bad idea. But closing borders does precisely NOTHING to solve the problem. In fact, it might actually make it worse, because our lack of contact with people from those sorts of places and with those sorts of experiences just ensures our ignorance on the topic.

Exposure = knowledge which leads to understanding and can prevent violence.

But like I said, I guess we can agree to disagree. I think it's fear, you maintain it's common sense.

It's definitely common, but I wouldn't call it sense. :)
Tripper

charger — Aug 19, 2016[quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/0#20 date=1471613178][quote author=charger link=1470686102/0#19 date=1471563684][quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/0#16 date=1471470552]Great to hear from you as well Trip!

Yep. Your probably right about the vote for Clinton over Trump thing, if you want things to stay the same. Which they will. Having said that, I do think, if she's willing and has the energy to fight for it again, she could accomplish massive improvements with Obamacare. That's about all the expectation I can come up with right now.

But Clinton lies so damn much. I was listening to her one day and she was going on and on about creating $50 a year jobs or some shit like that, rebuilding our highways, etc etc. No, the President can't create jobs. Unless it's government jobs that just get billed to the middle class. And, where is the money gonna come from to do all this road work and crap? Is it just going to magically appear? Anyone look at the debt lately?

I agree that Trump was a bit shifty, but he did what our laws allowed him to do. Otherwise, he'd be in jail.

250 million or so people in America, and these are the best we can do? Pretty damn scary!!

I'll read your article now.

There are 350 million people in America.

I don't care about whether Trump is a successful politician, or "we need an outsider."  If you think that, tell me how many times you have voted against the incumbent in the house and senate races?  How many times when you go to the ballot do you vote for the "outsider" on the ticket?  Because everyone says government sucks, and it needs to be turned over, but then the VAST majority of people re-elect their congresspeople.  It happens every election year.

As far as Trump's business acumen, I'm not sure what it even is. You can't exactly bankrupt the US to restructure debt... and that's one of his main tools.  

But besides that, I don't agree with his policy on refugees, Mexicans, Muslims, or abortion, and I can't vote for someone who hates so many people so much.  I'm only second generation myself, and I've seen the good that immigrants, even Muslim immigrants, can do in this country firsthand, and I know many Mexican immigrants, legal and illegal, myself, and I also know a lot of women.  I can't vast what I would consider to be a vote against their very existence.  So Trump is out for me.  Sorry.


Ive never voted for anyone in the congress or senate currently, period. Hows that?

I'm not intending to make anyone mad but the reality is, we have to stop all people coming across our boarders. If for nothing else, the safety of people already here. At least for a short term. I use to feel the same way you do about Muslims, but I'm convinced now that they must be stopped as well. It's not about hating people, it's about protecting the people that are here. And, our country as a whole. Your just spewing emotional BS. Your head can't be that deep in the sand. Your being liberal, and your liberal stance, should not be put before the country you live in. You should still be able to reason, and see the importance of stopping all these people from coming here.

I really could care less who you vote for, no need to apologize to me.


I mean, I am half Egyptian, my father is a Muslim 1st-generation immigrant from Egypt, so I'm just not going to agree with you there. But I think you definitely have the right candidate. I'm not actually trying to convince you to vote any other way, I think if you vote for Trump with a clear conscience, and agree with his policies, well, at least you know what you are doing.  The fact that you condone his racism tells me pretty much everything I need to know about any discussion with you over this.

Condone what racism? Show me where I did that. I am unaware of condoning Trumps racism. I would like the chance to correct myself if this accusation has ant merit.

Tripper — Aug 19, 2016[quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/25#25 date=1471636902]We have laws here Trip. There are legal ways to do things, and illegal ways to do things. The illegal way needs to stop today. And I think people coming into this country in any way needs to be suspended, for now. Lots of reasons to do that. Lots of reason/ways to do things legally as well. That was my point. Doesn't matter what tag you put on what group, I still think it's the right thing to do.

I'm not saying people coming here are committing crimes. I'm saying the potential for bad guys is probably higher now for that to be possible than ever before.

There's your fear talking.

Thats just a guess on my part, based on pretty much open boarders.

This statement indicates you know very little about our borders and how difficult it is for people to get into this country. (or our boarders)

It would be way more logical, for example, to protect our boarders rather than go fight 8 wars in the middle east not understanding what the fuck we're doing to start with. Not to mention, I think our warlords have about as much understanding about the middle east as I have of whats inside this computer I'm hacking away at right now.

Seriously? No wonder Trump seems qualified to you.

I don't care about ideals, smoke screens, rabbits farting and causing global warming. Just doesn't interest me. I care about common sense solutions to problems that we can come up with a long term fix for later. Immediate short term solution. And no, I wouldn't give a damn about hurting anyone's feelings in the process. It's, imo, what we need to do, right now. It's not about fear, it's simply common sense. The logical first step in solving the problem or problems we could potentially face soon. No reason to gamble on this subject.

No, it's actually fear, not common sense. Because you don't know the facts. Nor do you seem to care to learn them. Based on your statements, this willful lack of intellectual curiosity on the topic, you are EXACTLY the type of person who can be hoodwinked by a Trump-like candidate and a sensationalist media.

Closing borders that are already not particularly porous does NOTHING to make us safer. Do you think we should stop the flow of information from outside the country, too, so Americans can't be exposed to radical Islamic teaching? I mean, that's what causes most of the problems with domestic terrorism. People self-radicalize via the internet. Are we North Korea or China? Do we need to lock that down, too?

But let's step back further: Do you think that you're fundamentally unsafe because bad things like Paris, Nice, San Bernardino, and Orlando happen? Not one bit. The culture of "it could happen here" fear-mongering has got to stop. YES WE KNOW IT CAN HAPPEN HERE. So can an asteroid hitting the earth. So can a horrifying flood like in Baton Rouge. So can a racist piece of shit shooting up your church, like in South Carolina. The question you should ask is: IS IT LIKELY TO HAPPEN HERE? Ensuring that the mentally ill and those with terrorist ties wind up with people watching them and without easy access to weaponry is not a bad idea. But closing borders does precisely NOTHING to solve the problem. In fact, it might actually make it worse, because our lack of contact with people from those sorts of places and with those sorts of experiences just ensures our ignorance on the topic.

Exposure = knowledge which leads to understanding and can prevent violence.

But like I said, I guess we can agree to disagree. I think it's fear, you maintain it's common sense.

It's definitely common, but I wouldn't call it sense. :)
Tripper

The last figure I read was that about 350,000 illegal Mexicans cross the boarder and enter the U.S. Actually about 750,000, but half of those are caught by boarder agents. These figures may have changed, it's been a while since I've read about this subject.  I think Mexicans were at about 50% or 60% of illegal immigrants in the U.S. So, I know a little about the boarders. I also know that members of the terrorist group  Hezbollah entered the U.S. Thats enough factual information for me to come to the conclusion that we have a problem that needs to be solved.

Are you saying we need to have contact with terrorist and illegal immigrants so that we can understand them better? Holy shit.

This is why I disapprove of party people. They get so brainwashed by the holier than now mental aspect of liberalism, or the big lie the republicans use, smaller government, for example. I would never call myself a liberal, or conservative, or republican or democrat. I would consider either of these tags as insults.  

As would I, if you've actually paid attention to my posts to you over the years.

I'm not a partisan. I'm ANTI-partisan. Always have stressed it.

And if you can't comprehend my writing enough to understand that I wasn't talking about terrorists when I was talking about experience, well, that says a lot about you.

Sir, your here illegally. We have to ship you back home. Wait, have you had contact with terrorist? You have. Fuck it, come on in. Next.

;D

Is that better?

Cute.

Wrong and a complete misinterpretation of what I wrote, still, but cute.

:D
Tripper

OK. How about this one.


Sir, your here illegally. I know, but look..... I have lived around terrorist in the middle east all my life. I'm sick of it. You have? We just happen to need people that have had your kind of experiences so that we can understand. Understand what sir? A lot. Now get over here and shut up. Take off running North. You'll be fine.  ;D

That better?

Goddamn, man, I just wish you would learn some frigging English, like your/you're, and how to pluralize, and what a bo(a)rder is.

border(s) - the boundary/boundaries between countries (Hookbender wanted to close the borders because he hated buying cheap vegetables.)
boarders - people who rent rooms (The boarders refused to pay their rent.)
your - belonging to you (I am annoyed by your stupid examples of liberalism.)
you're - you are (Sir, you're here illegally.)
terrorist - a terrorist (singular). (I am afraid that the Muslim is a terrorist, so I am voting for Trump.)
terrorists - terrorists (plural). (I am afraid that all Muslims are terrorists, so I am voting for Trump.)

;D ;D

I'm sure you do. However, I'm not interested in that. I am interested in you explaining your accusation though. In fact, I'm all eyes. And hey.... I used "your" correctly for you.  ;D

You still don't really get it. But that's okay. I'm not sure you can see past your fear. :)

Tripper

It's quite simple.  Trump is clearly and obviously racist, and espouses racist policies and platforms, so much so, that even his own party often has to say "damn, that's pretty racist."

Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims."

If A= Trump is racist, and B= You agree with Trump's racist statements, then, look up "transitive property".

charger — Aug 23, 2016It's quite simple.  Trump is clearly and obviously racist, and espouses racist policies and platforms, so much so, that even his own party often has to say "damn, that's pretty racist."

Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims."

If A= Trump is racist, and B= You agree with Trump's racist statements, then, look up "transitive property".

(Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims.")

Wait, are you quoting me here? Because I looked, I can't find where I said that. Maybe I missed it??? I'd like to see where I said that. Show me.

I think I ask you to show me where I condoned Trumps racism...... Not what your opinion of Trump is. Although you have the right to post at will, of course, just pointing out that you forgot, I guess, to answer the actual question.

Tripper — Aug 23, 2016You still don't really get it. But that's okay. I'm not sure you can see past your fear. :)

Tripper

I do fear some things. But for the most part, since I don't fear God anymore, I also don't fear a terrorist coming to North Carolina to kill a redneck from Alabama. I could be wrong, I guess.

Hookbender — Aug 24, 2016[quote author=charger link=1470686102/25#37 date=1471996421]It's quite simple.  Trump is clearly and obviously racist, and espouses racist policies and platforms, so much so, that even his own party often has to say "damn, that's pretty racist."

Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims."

If A= Trump is racist, and B= You agree with Trump's racist statements, then, look up "transitive property".

(Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims.")

Wait, are you quoting me here? Because I looked, I can't find where I said that. Maybe I missed it??? I'd like to see where I said that. Show me.

I think I ask you to show me where I condoned Trumps racism...... Not what your opinion of Trump is. Although you have the right to post at will, of course, just pointing out that you forgot, I guess, to answer the actual question.

I use to feel the same way you do about Muslims, but I'm convinced now that they must be stopped as well.

Note that you just said a whole religion of people "must be stopped"... Now substitute "jews" or "christians" or "hindus" into that, and look at how it sounds.

charger — Aug 24, 2016[quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/25#38 date=1471998958][quote author=charger link=1470686102/25#37 date=1471996421]It's quite simple.  Trump is clearly and obviously racist, and espouses racist policies and platforms, so much so, that even his own party often has to say "damn, that's pretty racist."

Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims."

If A= Trump is racist, and B= You agree with Trump's racist statements, then, look up "transitive property".

(Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims.")

Wait, are you quoting me here? Because I looked, I can't find where I said that. Maybe I missed it??? I'd like to see where I said that. Show me.

I think I ask you to show me where I condoned Trumps racism...... Not what your opinion of Trump is. Although you have the right to post at will, of course, just pointing out that you forgot, I guess, to answer the actual question.

I use to feel the same way you do about Muslims, but I'm convinced now that they must be stopped as well.

Note that you just said a whole religion of people "must be stopped"... Now substitute "jews" or "christians" or "hindus" into that, and look at how it sounds.

Thats what I thought. Maybe you need to learn that when you use fucking quote marks, that means your quoting someone. You straight up lied in your post. And your caught. And for that reason, I don't have a fucking thing to say to you about jack shit. Don't judge what other people are doing before you get your own shit straight.  

Hookbender — Aug 24, 2016[quote author=charger link=1470686102/25#40 date=1472059821][quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/25#38 date=1471998958][quote author=charger link=1470686102/25#37 date=1471996421]It's quite simple.  Trump is clearly and obviously racist, and espouses racist policies and platforms, so much so, that even his own party often has to say "damn, that's pretty racist."

Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims."

If A= Trump is racist, and B= You agree with Trump's racist statements, then, look up "transitive property".

(Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims.")

Wait, are you quoting me here? Because I looked, I can't find where I said that. Maybe I missed it??? I'd like to see where I said that. Show me.

I think I ask you to show me where I condoned Trumps racism...... Not what your opinion of Trump is. Although you have the right to post at will, of course, just pointing out that you forgot, I guess, to answer the actual question.

I use to feel the same way you do about Muslims, but I'm convinced now that they must be stopped as well.

Note that you just said a whole religion of people "must be stopped"... Now substitute "jews" or "christians" or "hindus" into that, and look at how it sounds.

Thats what I thought. Maybe you need to learn that when you use fucking quote marks, that means your quoting someone. You straight up lied in your post. And your caught. And for that reason, I don't have a fucking thing to say to you about jack shit. Don't judge what other people are doing before you get your own shit straight.  


That was a direct quote. You said Muslims "must be stopped". It's kind of bizarre that you are angry at me for quoting you back at you... but Trump does the same thing, and goes nuts when people tell him the things he said.  Anyway, I'd love to know why that quote THAT YOU SAID isn't bigoted.

(Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims.")

Your full of shit dude. This is you, quoting ME, above. Show me where I said that.. You can't, because I didn't. That's a straight up lie. You can't debate the topic so you decide to attack on a personal level. That shows you have nothing left to say, as far as I'm concerned. So, you make up shit. Your argument is weak, pointless, and just plain shit. You can't even have a goddamn discussion without attacking someone on a personal level.

I'll make my point one more time for the mentally challenged. (That means you, Charger) I think it smart to close the BORDER'S (MEANING MORE THAN ONE), temporarily. That mean Muslims, Mexicans, sheep, fruit flies, dogs, flying fleas, terrorist, anyone from the middle east, anyone from Spain, or Russia, etc etc etc., meaning no one outside the United States would be allowed to come to this country period, temporarily. Now, if YOU bring up Muslims, in particular, and start a discussion about one group, thats on you, not me. My point is clear.

Now anyone can understand that point except the mentally challenged, stupid ignorant people like yourself. Yep, that's personal, and you deserve it. It doesn't mean my stance is correct, better than anyone else's, etc, it just is what it is.  

Now instead of worrying yourself to death, and getting emotional, about my spelling etc, why don't you worry and concentrate on the substance of your post and your credibility.

You and Tripper have done this since the beginning of time around here. You run out of meaningful things to say, or your losing the debate, and you start your personal attacks. That's a sign of weakness and poor character.

For someone that I considered smart, intelligent, and thoughtful.... at times, this bullshit is a huge letdown. It's Stratman land from the liberal side.

I don't have any problem with any people, really, as a group. Terrorist are terrorist, not Muslims. And if it makes you feel any better, I don't want Americans coming across the boarder either, from outside the U.S. That should take some of the personal sting out of your stupid responses.  

Now going forward, if you want to have meaningful discussions, void of personal attacks on each other, cool. It never happened and forgotten as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, my post directed to you will be void of respect for you. Your choice, bro.

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian, but I just can't understand this fear of terrorism that people like Trump are spouting.  When you look at this CNN report comparing deaths attributed to terrorism versus guns, it just not comparable. Approximately 4,000 deaths versus 400,000 since 9/11. And Trump has no plan for curbing gun violence as far as I have seen.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-gun-violence/

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying Hook, but such a drastic act of closing your borders to everyone seems to be more than a little extreme. How would you expect international trade to continue? How could sports such as baseball or hockey continue if teams could no longer cross the borders? The economic fallout would plunge the US and the rest of the world into a deep, deep depression.  And, in case you are wondering, I have no interested in visiting the US because of your gun violence so a ban would have no impact on me other than the economic fallout.

Peace,

jayson

The script got worsers evens.  One's slimy in the taking and one's slimy in the giving

Jayson

I have no problem with a gun ban, but it's not possible. I mean, I don't think it's possible to round up all guns from everyone in the U.S. It's pretty much the same stance I have with deporting people. Just impossible to do, as far as I know. But, the people are here now. Stupid to use the word deport. It's just a talking point. Just like banning guns. Neither will happen.

Thats a pretty extreme comparison, don't you think? One terrorist getting in could potentially kill 400,000 people in one sweep, probably possible.

And, as far as I know, there are 350,000 illegal Mexicans crossing our BORDERS yearly. I assume we have no clue as to what even their names are.

The reason I, (me) , think the borders should be closed is in part, exactly that reason. Times have changed. Before 9-11, the same people raising hell about closing the borders probably thought, shit, we don't need extra security at airports. I haven't seen any terrorist on a plane. So see, it's not that unreasonable.

And... I said temporarily, time after time. And not one person ask me why I think the borders should be closed, temporarily. No, that's to damn reasonable. The reason I say temporarily is this. We need to stop illegal crossings on all our borders.....until we can make sure we know who's coming in, and who's going out. When that happens, we don't even have to have this discussion. Remember, the goal is to simply stop illegal unknown people from coming into this country, illegally. ILLEGALLY.  Key word here. When that happens, other than illegal crossings, we resume normal legal methods of letting people come to this great country.... to hopefully help us make it even better and of course, to have a better quality of life in general. No matter who the fuck they are, or where they come from, or the color of their skin.

I don't have unreasonable ideas. This is reasonable. I have a problem with people who skip reasonable and go straight to personal attacks and make shit up because they are to emotional and stupid to have a damn rational discussion about anything that goes against their extreme liberal views. Closed minded argumentative idiots. (meaning Charger)

Sorry. But I do feel better now.  ;) I have always felt we needed to close the borders, until we have a system of accountability. My stance on this wasn't suddenly raised from the dead because of something Trump said. Has nothing to do with him. He isn't gonna build a wall and make Mexico pay for it, imo. And, he isn't gonna deport people. However, his stance on subjects like these could at least get our country off it's politically correct ass and come up with reasonable solutions and implement the solutions. I'm personally tired of hearing about the shit because it all could be solved quite easily and fairly, imo.

Hook,

Just as you feel banning all guns is not possible, I believe that temporarily closing the borders is not possible either. How long is temporary? One week, one month one year? I'm sure there is a system in place that already grants travel visa or vets new immigrants. What do you suggest needs to be improved with the current system? What measures will allow you to better know who is entering? How long will it take to implement such a plan and how will you pay for it?

Do you intend to build a wall between the US and Canadian border? I'll tell you right now that Canada won't pay for it. And in case you didn't know, Canada has a trade defecit with the US so imposing tariffs against our exports would never generate anything close to the money you would need to build it. If the Mexican wall will cost 10 billion, a Canadian wall would easily be ten times that amount. And how will you built a wall along the Great Lakes we share?

Sorry, that is a lot of questions and I'm not expecting you to answer all of them but I think that's part of the Trump philosophy of blurting out solutions without any real plans or understanding of what all the ramifications are. And this isn't just a left versus right thing. When both parties supported the invasion of Iraq, there was very little thought about what end game would be and look at what that turned out to be.

Anyway, from my perspective, the 2016 US election is just ending up to be a big gong show. Americains will just end up voting for the candidate they fear less rather than the one they like the most. I hope you all think rationally and make the right choice. The rest of the world will be watching.

Cheers,

jayson

I know that better options are probably available than anything I dream up, but here is my thoughts. It's pretty simple. I've mentioned this several times down here in no man's land.  ;D

My opinion is simply this. I would close bases outside the U.S. and bring our troops home. I would bring all troops home from the middle east tomorrow. 100% of them. Then I would use our troops, drones, cameras, etc to stop illegal crossings. No walls.

This would, in itself, pay for our border protection. I would also come up with a law that doesn't allow our country to get involved in shit it doesn't understand. Laws that stop our deluded nation building attempts. Our troops are to protect our country. Not fix other countries problems whether they want it or not. And, we have proven we can't fix other countries problems with our military. Now add up the dollars that will save this country.

If I were President, This could be done, I would guess, in 6 months to a year if not faster than that. Might take longer to get our equipment home.

Trade doesn't involve illegal people crossing our borders. Not that I'm aware of. Not sure why that would be effected at all. If your telling me that trade involves illegal people coming into this country, that may need to be looked at as well.

Our political system in is the beginning stages of huge change, imo. All elections of President in the last few or more elections have been just crazy. Look at the Obama election, for example. We elected a President that we knew would have his hands tied behind his back. He was the better choice, both times, but he couldn't do anything because of the fools in congress and senate being a majority republican. So, little got done. More than I expected, but little. This year, we have 2 clowns in the mix. A retard, and a lying bitch. So, good luck with that. And, we are here arguing about who's the better choice of the 2 horrible choices we have. But, back to the change in politics I mentioned, we have elected our first black President, we have a woman that will probably win and be President, and we have a businessman not connected to politics at all with at least a shot at being President. That's a lot of change. And who knows in 4 years, what will happen next. It's insanity to vote for Clinton and expect anything to change, other than a woman as President. Especially when she is a huge part of the problem.

Now, you hear lots of people arguing how crazy Trump is, etc. Those same people that say fear is the reason for closing borders, are scared to death themselves of Trump. So, they vote for a crook. That would tell me those same people who voted for Obama, really don't want hop and change. They want the same. Or, they just want a liberal President, no matter the cost. No matter the reason. Hope and change became another talking point. We have made it through lot's of growing pains to get where we are today. And if we want to change politics, we'll have more of those growing pains. Everyone knows that Trump won't be able to go crazy and build walls, deport people, bring factories back to the U.S. overnight, etc. But, he may just be crazy enough to get a real discussion started with real solutions to problems that first, can be corrected, and second, people might just implement those solutions for a change. Or, maybe he can't do shit. If thats the case, in 4 years we try again.

But all this discussion about the President or election, takes Americans eye off the ball. The problems we have are congress and senate. And until those fuck heads are gone, we will still have problems and have a hard time correcting them.

In my opinion.

Thanks Hook,

You did clarify you're thoughts for me. My concern about trade is I thought you wanted to stop all travel across the borders temporarily. So if I read you correctly, a trucker from Canada would still be able to travel with a load of maple syrup from Quebec down to New York? A pilot would still be able to fly a jet with goods from Germany to Chicago? A ship with a Chinese captain can still dock his boat full of iPhones on the west coast?  How about someone travelling on a valid visitors visa from Saudi Arabia to Texas to see their dying mother? From my understanding, the majority of illegals are coming into the US on valid visa but overstaying. How would you stop that?  Sorry, again a lot of questions.   ;)

As for Trump changing how politics are done in the US being a good thing, I don't agree. From my perspective, he is only widening the cleavages between the right and left. There seems to be less chance of people coming together from both sides and resolving difficult issue after this election. His mentally is nothing more than doing and saying anything to get elected like a snake oil salesmen. He's taken Charlie Sheen's "winning" philosophy to a new low (IMHO).

The obstructive Congress (who I agree with need to be booted out) will only get worse unless one of the candidates coat tails are long enough make that change. My hope is that if Hillary wins, enough independent Democrats will be elected in the House and Senate and will keep her honest; the current majority Republicans have been nothing more than the party of no. Then maybe real problems like the hundreds of innocents like Duane Wade's cousin's dying from guns in the streets or climate change or even the mess in the middle East and immigration can really be addressed.

Cheers,

jayson