The Watering Hole

jayson — Aug 28, 2016Thanks Hook,

You did clarify you're thoughts for me. My concern about trade is I thought you wanted to stop all travel across the borders temporarily. So if I read you correctly, a trucker from Canada would still be able to travel with a load of maple syrup from Quebec down to New York? A pilot would still be able to fly a jet with goods from Germany to Chicago? A ship with a Chinese captain can still dock his boat full of iPhones on the west coast?  How about someone travelling on a valid visitors visa from Saudi Arabia to Texas to see their dying mother? From my understanding, the majority of illegals are coming into the US on valid visa but overstaying. How would you stop that?  Sorry, again a lot of questions.   ;)

As for Trump changing how politics are done in the US being a good thing, I don't agree. From my perspective, he is only widening the cleavages between the right and left. There seems to be less chance of people coming together from both sides and resolving difficult issue after this election. His mentally is nothing more than doing and saying anything to get elected like a snake oil salesmen. He's taken Charlie Sheen's "winning" philosophy to a new low (IMHO).

The obstructive Congress (who I agree with need to be booted out) will only get worse unless one of the candidates coat tails are long enough make that change. My hope is that if Hillary wins, enough independent Democrats will be elected in the House and Senate and will keep her honest; the current majority Republicans have been nothing more than the party of no. Then maybe real problems like the hundreds of innocents like Duane Wade's cousin's dying from guns in the streets or climate change or even the mess in the middle East and immigration can really be addressed.

Cheers,

jayson

Look, I don't pretend to have all the answers. My thought would be no to all the above, temporarily. Until there is a system of accountability. That shouldn't take long to do. How hard is protecting our borders? I don't think it's that hard. I mean, is 6 months gonna destroy trade forever? I don't think so.

If the visa'a are being abused, simply stop it and come up with a solution. The first step is recognizing the problem. Then come up with solution's, them implement the solution of choice. If that one doesn't work, change it. But don't argue about it for 10 years, fucking do something. (Politicians doing something)

I didn't mean Trump would change anything. I was talking about voters changing their voting habits and taking chances on maybe, non-political types like Trump. Look, we are more divided, arguably, under Obama than any other President in U.S. history. Trust me, we can't get much more divided. Trump can't trump Obama in that dept.

You know. On the guns thing. There again, the media is influencing opinion on the stupid. All they hear is a white police officer shot a black man and fucking riots break out. Shit loads of property destroyed, jobs lost, etc. Then.... when they finish the investigations, the officers are being acquitted left and right. But, their careers are fucked. So, what the fuck? What a bunch of ignorant fucks. And the liberals are eatin the shit up too. I would be for a workable gun ban. I would love for guns to be gone. A thing of the past for citizen ownership. That said, with shit like I'm describing, I'm not so sure anymore. I think those riots are a direct result of no education, morals, or care about whats right from wrong. As a society, we should recognize those riots, we should see the failure of our education system and yes, decline in the value of family. If you want to know the truth, imo, that's the wall we should put up. A wall against stupid. And that, to me, starts with education. Put critical thinking, money management, and even describe to young kids what a healthy relationship is and means. Get politics, at least the basics, started early, man. I really fucked up. Worst mistake I ever made. I had a 100% free ride to college and could have lived at home, or gone to Alabama if I wanted. But hell no. Went 2 years, and quit to go to work. Just a horrible set of actions, right there. Just plain dumb ass 101.

Anyway, what are some of your ideas?

The only idea I have is for all parties to talk to each other and be willing to really listen to each other. That means compromising to come up with real workable solutions. Right now it seems it's all about scoring political points by stoking fears about different groups and that can't end well. The US needs to coming together and not speak in absolutes.

Anyway, as a Canadian, I don't have a horse in this race so will exit this conversation with hope that it all works out in the wash. Thanks for letting me know your thoughts Hook.   :)

Cheers,

jayson

I wish people would stop thinking of people as labels in this country and start thinking of them as people.

Creating an "other" is the easiest way for stupidity to reign in America.

That's why Trump appeals to the "scared shitless" crowd.

I'm not a liberal. I may support some liberal ideas, but for fuck's sake. I just want shit that WORKS.

The majority of right-wing-championed philosophy that has been shoved down our throats since Reagan, from trickle-down economics, absurd military spending and imperialist tactics, privatization of basic services, union-busting, etc. - it doesn't work. History has made that very clear.

So, I seem like a liberal because I have the crazy notion I'd like to get back to shit that works to build a middle class - which is higher wages and more worker protections. Higher taxation on those who make a lot of money (since it doesn't really affect their lifestyle or their livelihood one bit).

I don't agree with Hillary Clinton on her hawkish policies. I don't think she's particularly keen on reigning in massive corruption in government or on Wall Street. But what choice do I have?

A candidate that knows almost NOTHING and is an embarrassment? (Trump)
A candidate that's proudest achievement was line-item vetoes (and whose "fiscal conservatism" actually fucked up the budget of his state pretty badly)? (Johnson)
A candidate who has essentially done nothing substantial but run for president for the Green Party? (Stein)

This sadly is a Presidential election of who sucks the least. They ALL suck. We thought 2000's "Douche vs. Turd" was bad, but I'd be THRILLED if it were Bush v. Gore again.

I'm way more psyched to try and get my congressman out of office. He's a dim-witted pusher of the same bad right-wing-championed ideas that don't work, and he's an obstructionist partisan who does everything he can to PREVENT people from compromising.

I hope people start relating to people on a personal level instead of just pushing them into categories. This country would be better served by that than this rampant, moronic "tribalism".

Tripper

I understand what you mean by this fear thing with Trump.

However, I would argue that people should be fearing Clinton. No telling what that woman will do. Doesn't matter what she says, can't believe a thing you hear.

I agree with your entire post, believe it or not, with the exception of people voting for Trump because of fear thing.

It's not everyone that's considering voting for Trump, but it is easily the majority of people I know who support him. There's this underlying fear of something "other" that Trump stokes that really resonates in these people, many of whom I love dearly. If I'm being honest, I truly think it's the sublimated racism we all possess on some level, no matter what our cultural background. It's conditioned that white is "normal" because it's the majority and has been in power for so long. And men have to be in charge because we still have issues with respecting women in this country as leaders.

I just wish more people could own the fact that it is better to be white and male in this country in the vast majority of situations one can experience, and also be willing to recognize it and work toward a more equal society.

Have a great day today, man!
Tripper

Hookbender — Aug 27, 2016(Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims.")

Your full of shit dude. This is you, quoting ME, above. Show me where I said that.. You can't, because I didn't. That's a straight up lie. You can't debate the topic so you decide to attack on a personal level. That shows you have nothing left to say, as far as I'm concerned. So, you make up shit. Your argument is weak, pointless, and just plain shit. You can't even have a goddamn discussion without attacking someone on a personal level.

I'll make my point one more time for the mentally challenged. (That means you, Charger) I think it smart to close the BORDER'S (MEANING MORE THAN ONE), temporarily. That mean Muslims, Mexicans, sheep, fruit flies, dogs, flying fleas, terrorist, anyone from the middle east, anyone from Spain, or Russia, etc etc etc., meaning no one outside the United States would be allowed to come to this country period, temporarily. Now, if YOU bring up Muslims, in particular, and start a discussion about one group, thats on you, not me. My point is clear.

Now anyone can understand that point except the mentally challenged, stupid ignorant people like yourself. Yep, that's personal, and you deserve it. It doesn't mean my stance is correct, better than anyone else's, etc, it just is what it is.  

Now instead of worrying yourself to death, and getting emotional, about my spelling etc, why don't you worry and concentrate on the substance of your post and your credibility.

You and Tripper have done this since the beginning of time around here. You run out of meaningful things to say, or your losing the debate, and you start your personal attacks. That's a sign of weakness and poor character.

For someone that I considered smart, intelligent, and thoughtful.... at times, this bullshit is a huge letdown. It's Stratman land from the liberal side.

I don't have any problem with any people, really, as a group. Terrorist are terrorist, not Muslims. And if it makes you feel any better, I don't want Americans coming across the boarder either, from outside the U.S. That should take some of the personal sting out of your stupid responses.  

Now going forward, if you want to have meaningful discussions, void of personal attacks on each other, cool. It never happened and forgotten as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, my post directed to you will be void of respect for you. Your choice, bro.

I'm losing the debate?  As far as I am concerned, there is no debate. I am not "debating" with you whether people should be allowed to immigrate to this country.  This country is 99% immigrants.  And I am not debating with you whether we can discriminate against which immigrants we allow to enter our country.  Unless you plan to change the Constitution, we cannot discriminate based on religion, or lack thereof. So I'm not losing any debate, and I never will against someone who espouses Trump's philosophy.  He's a racist demagogue whose ideas are from the 1950s and who is not even close to having enough support from this country to win.  I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but I'm not inclined to feel PC about it, and if you buy his shit, I'm sorry that you do. He's a fucking moron, whose ideas are ignorant and uninformed. He panders to people who miss Leave it to Beaver with fear-mongering, race-baiting, and visions of that grand old wonderful small-town America that didn't even exist in the 50's. On top of this, a lot of his plans are unconstitutional and downright illegal.  This is also the same asshole who asked, three times, in a meeting on national security, why it was we couldn't use nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive strike.  I'm still waiting for some big reveal from him, like maybe this is all an act to see if people are gullible, or maybe he really just wants to destroy the Republican party.  Either way, he's both the worst possible thing to ever happen to the Republicans, and the most amazing thing ever.

Hookbender — Aug 28, 2016[quote author=jayson link=1470686102/25#49 date=1472403608]Thanks Hook,

You did clarify you're thoughts for me. My concern about trade is I thought you wanted to stop all travel across the borders temporarily. So if I read you correctly, a trucker from Canada would still be able to travel with a load of maple syrup from Quebec down to New York? A pilot would still be able to fly a jet with goods from Germany to Chicago? A ship with a Chinese captain can still dock his boat full of iPhones on the west coast?  How about someone travelling on a valid visitors visa from Saudi Arabia to Texas to see their dying mother? From my understanding, the majority of illegals are coming into the US on valid visa but overstaying. How would you stop that?  Sorry, again a lot of questions.   ;)

As for Trump changing how politics are done in the US being a good thing, I don't agree. From my perspective, he is only widening the cleavages between the right and left. There seems to be less chance of people coming together from both sides and resolving difficult issue after this election. His mentally is nothing more than doing and saying anything to get elected like a snake oil salesmen. He's taken Charlie Sheen's "winning" philosophy to a new low (IMHO).

The obstructive Congress (who I agree with need to be booted out) will only get worse unless one of the candidates coat tails are long enough make that change. My hope is that if Hillary wins, enough independent Democrats will be elected in the House and Senate and will keep her honest; the current majority Republicans have been nothing more than the party of no. Then maybe real problems like the hundreds of innocents like Duane Wade's cousin's dying from guns in the streets or climate change or even the mess in the middle East and immigration can really be addressed.

Cheers,

jayson

Look, I don't pretend to have all the answers. My thought would be no to all the above, temporarily. Until there is a system of accountability. That shouldn't take long to do. How hard is protecting our borders? I don't think it's that hard. I mean, is 6 months gonna destroy trade forever? I don't think so.



Yes, 6 months of no trade would be absolutely devastating. That would cause a cataclysmic collapse in our country's economies and the economies of the world.  We would go into a recession deeper than the great depression, and harder to get out of. The amount of wealth lost by American companies and the American people would be absolutely devastating. The fact that you think it's probably fine tells me you haven't done any research at all on this.

charger — Aug 29, 2016[quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/25#43 date=1472325531](Then you say, "I agree with all those things Trump says about people, like Muslims.")

Your full of shit dude. This is you, quoting ME, above. Show me where I said that.. You can't, because I didn't. That's a straight up lie. You can't debate the topic so you decide to attack on a personal level. That shows you have nothing left to say, as far as I'm concerned. So, you make up shit. Your argument is weak, pointless, and just plain shit. You can't even have a goddamn discussion without attacking someone on a personal level.

I'll make my point one more time for the mentally challenged. (That means you, Charger) I think it smart to close the BORDER'S (MEANING MORE THAN ONE), temporarily. That mean Muslims, Mexicans, sheep, fruit flies, dogs, flying fleas, terrorist, anyone from the middle east, anyone from Spain, or Russia, etc etc etc., meaning no one outside the United States would be allowed to come to this country period, temporarily. Now, if YOU bring up Muslims, in particular, and start a discussion about one group, thats on you, not me. My point is clear.

Now anyone can understand that point except the mentally challenged, stupid ignorant people like yourself. Yep, that's personal, and you deserve it. It doesn't mean my stance is correct, better than anyone else's, etc, it just is what it is.  

Now instead of worrying yourself to death, and getting emotional, about my spelling etc, why don't you worry and concentrate on the substance of your post and your credibility.

You and Tripper have done this since the beginning of time around here. You run out of meaningful things to say, or your losing the debate, and you start your personal attacks. That's a sign of weakness and poor character.

For someone that I considered smart, intelligent, and thoughtful.... at times, this bullshit is a huge letdown. It's Stratman land from the liberal side.

I don't have any problem with any people, really, as a group. Terrorist are terrorist, not Muslims. And if it makes you feel any better, I don't want Americans coming across the boarder either, from outside the U.S. That should take some of the personal sting out of your stupid responses.  

Now going forward, if you want to have meaningful discussions, void of personal attacks on each other, cool. It never happened and forgotten as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, my post directed to you will be void of respect for you. Your choice, bro.

I'm losing the debate?  As far as I am concerned, there is no debate. I am not "debating" with you whether people should be allowed to immigrate to this country.  This country is 99% immigrants.  And I am not debating with you whether we can discriminate against which immigrants we allow to enter our country.  Unless you plan to change the Constitution, we cannot discriminate based on religion, or lack thereof. So I'm not losing any debate, and I never will against someone who espouses Trump's philosophy.  He's a racist demagogue whose ideas are from the 1950s and who is not even close to having enough support from this country to win.  I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but I'm not inclined to feel PC about it, and if you buy his shit, I'm sorry that you do. He's a fucking moron, whose ideas are ignorant and uninformed. He panders to people who miss Leave it to Beaver with fear-mongering, race-baiting, and visions of that grand old wonderful small-town America that didn't even exist in the 50's. On top of this, a lot of his plans are unconstitutional and downright illegal.  This is also the same asshole who asked, three times, in a meeting on national security, why it was we couldn't use nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive strike.  I'm still waiting for some big reveal from him, like maybe this is all an act to see if people are gullible, or maybe he really just wants to destroy the Republican party.  Either way, he's both the worst possible thing to ever happen to the Republicans, and the most amazing thing ever.


You didn't hurt my feelings, you pissed me off.  ;D

You misquoted me intentionally, either to get a rise out of me, or just plain lied. Either way, that's bullshit.

charger — Aug 29, 2016[quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/50#50 date=1472417849][quote author=jayson link=1470686102/25#49 date=1472403608]Thanks Hook,

You did clarify you're thoughts for me. My concern about trade is I thought you wanted to stop all travel across the borders temporarily. So if I read you correctly, a trucker from Canada would still be able to travel with a load of maple syrup from Quebec down to New York? A pilot would still be able to fly a jet with goods from Germany to Chicago? A ship with a Chinese captain can still dock his boat full of iPhones on the west coast?  How about someone travelling on a valid visitors visa from Saudi Arabia to Texas to see their dying mother? From my understanding, the majority of illegals are coming into the US on valid visa but overstaying. How would you stop that?  Sorry, again a lot of questions.   ;)

As for Trump changing how politics are done in the US being a good thing, I don't agree. From my perspective, he is only widening the cleavages between the right and left. There seems to be less chance of people coming together from both sides and resolving difficult issue after this election. His mentally is nothing more than doing and saying anything to get elected like a snake oil salesmen. He's taken Charlie Sheen's "winning" philosophy to a new low (IMHO).

The obstructive Congress (who I agree with need to be booted out) will only get worse unless one of the candidates coat tails are long enough make that change. My hope is that if Hillary wins, enough independent Democrats will be elected in the House and Senate and will keep her honest; the current majority Republicans have been nothing more than the party of no. Then maybe real problems like the hundreds of innocents like Duane Wade's cousin's dying from guns in the streets or climate change or even the mess in the middle East and immigration can really be addressed.

Cheers,

jayson

Look, I don't pretend to have all the answers. My thought would be no to all the above, temporarily. Until there is a system of accountability. That shouldn't take long to do. How hard is protecting our borders? I don't think it's that hard. I mean, is 6 months gonna destroy trade forever? I don't think so.



Yes, 6 months of no trade would be absolutely devastating. That would cause a cataclysmic collapse in our country's economies and the economies of the world.  We would go into a recession deeper than the great depression, and harder to get out of. The amount of wealth lost by American companies and the American people would be absolutely devastating. The fact that you think it's probably fine tells me you haven't done any research at all on this.

Recon that the first 2 sentences of my post sunk my battleship, didn't it?  :-[ No I haven't. That said, no problem. Toss that idea in the shitter cause I sure don't want that to happen. So, we just find a way to keep trade untouched,  but maybe monitored more closely. No big deal. That was easy.   Next problem?

Hookbender — Aug 29, 2016[quote author=charger link=1470686102/50#56 date=1472494216][quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/50#50 date=1472417849][quote author=jayson link=1470686102/25#49 date=1472403608]Thanks Hook,

You did clarify you're thoughts for me. My concern about trade is I thought you wanted to stop all travel across the borders temporarily. So if I read you correctly, a trucker from Canada would still be able to travel with a load of maple syrup from Quebec down to New York? A pilot would still be able to fly a jet with goods from Germany to Chicago? A ship with a Chinese captain can still dock his boat full of iPhones on the west coast?  How about someone travelling on a valid visitors visa from Saudi Arabia to Texas to see their dying mother? From my understanding, the majority of illegals are coming into the US on valid visa but overstaying. How would you stop that?  Sorry, again a lot of questions.   ;)

As for Trump changing how politics are done in the US being a good thing, I don't agree. From my perspective, he is only widening the cleavages between the right and left. There seems to be less chance of people coming together from both sides and resolving difficult issue after this election. His mentally is nothing more than doing and saying anything to get elected like a snake oil salesmen. He's taken Charlie Sheen's "winning" philosophy to a new low (IMHO).

The obstructive Congress (who I agree with need to be booted out) will only get worse unless one of the candidates coat tails are long enough make that change. My hope is that if Hillary wins, enough independent Democrats will be elected in the House and Senate and will keep her honest; the current majority Republicans have been nothing more than the party of no. Then maybe real problems like the hundreds of innocents like Duane Wade's cousin's dying from guns in the streets or climate change or even the mess in the middle East and immigration can really be addressed.

Cheers,

jayson

Look, I don't pretend to have all the answers. My thought would be no to all the above, temporarily. Until there is a system of accountability. That shouldn't take long to do. How hard is protecting our borders? I don't think it's that hard. I mean, is 6 months gonna destroy trade forever? I don't think so.



Yes, 6 months of no trade would be absolutely devastating. That would cause a cataclysmic collapse in our country's economies and the economies of the world.  We would go into a recession deeper than the great depression, and harder to get out of. The amount of wealth lost by American companies and the American people would be absolutely devastating. The fact that you think it's probably fine tells me you haven't done any research at all on this.

Recon that the first 2 sentences of my post sunk my battleship, didn't it?  :-[ No I haven't. That said, no problem. Toss that idea in the shitter cause I sure don't want that to happen. So, we just find a way to keep trade untouched,  but maybe monitored more closely. No big deal. That was easy.   Next problem?


My guitar has a lot of problems.  I'm taking my guitar to a repair shop. Do I take it to:
a) a person who has spent 30 years repairing guitars, or
b) a person who has spent 30 years building houseboats, but who has recently said that he really wants to fix guitars, and he's going to do such a good job I won't believe it.

Or...

;D ;D

Well, guitars are different, Charger. It requires knowledge and skill to fix certain things on a guitar.

Being President doesn't require all that much knowledge. He'll have advisors 24/7 that can inform him on any subject. The congress and senate will keep him on a short leash. His VP has some experience in politics and he'll be surrounded by others with the same experience. You complain all the time about how Obama couldn't get anything done because of republicans in the congress and senate. Now you have this sudden FEAR of what Trump is gonna do. Cry wolf some more, bro. We both know that your fear is all in your head. It's anxiety. Take some Zoloft. Open your mind. Breath. Ahhhh, that fresh air is good, isn't it?

Why would I fear a Trump presidency? Trump's not going to win. A lot of people would have to buy his bullshit, and they're not buying it.

I was merely illustrating a point about hiring an amateur to do the job.  You know, if you hire the amateur, they can probably fix your guitar, after thousands of hours of learning and practicing. Hopefully not on YOUR guitar.

Well, Trump isn't gonna have to practice fixing stuff. He has advisors plus, congress and senate to keep him in check. And, help him make decisions. It sounds like you fear him a lot by reading your post. I mean, why get so emotional about it if you have no fear of him winning, or fear him in general. Just think about all the stuff you'd have to bitch about if he were President. You would be in heaven, my brother.

I bet Trump won't be as bad as this guy.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/north-koreas-top-education-official-executed-seoul-022737788.html

Now, I'm all for staying out of people's business. I don't want anymore wars over there. Or, anywhere. But.....I would be all in on a Binny boy type killing. I HATE that man. Or anyone like him. He is way lower than an animal. Or, a fresh turd.

Trump would probably admire him... like he does Putin.

I'm not afraid of a Trump presidency at all, because, really, it's a remote possibility at best.

What makes me upset, and you seem to miss this point over and over, is his tone and the tone he is promoting.  I'm very disheartened and discouraged by the tone he takes, and by the amount of people lining up to endorse his racism and bigotry.  That's what makes me bummed about this election more than anything, that he says all this vile shit, and then people agree.  It's one of those "losing faith in humanity" moments that I thought we would never have with someone as high up as a presidential candidate.  At least I felt like John McCain and Romney were decent human beings who didn't have this hate in their bones and souls.  Romney had terrible ideas about the rich and poor, and McCain chose Palin, but those were standup people, people who respected other races and faiths. Not nasty bigots who encouraged racism, racial violence, and the like. Trump is making this country worse in his quest to make it "great again."  That's the part that hurts.

Maybe you just take what he says to seriously, or emotionally. Whether you agree or not, we do have to stop illegal immigration. I don't think people should be deported unless they commit a crime and are here illegally. And, I don't think anyone would support deporting all illegal folks. It's a stupid talking point.

What pisses me off is the fact that we wait till we get 11 million illegal people here before we address this issue. We talk about it all the time, politicians, but we do nothing. So, it's been talked about by dems and puds for years and years, untill Americans have gotton sick of it. Sick of hearing about it to the point they think Trump is the answer. Pretty sad.

I haven't ignored your point. Trump does have a pathetic and offensive tone. Very unprofessional, to say the least. And, he's pretty embarrassing to listen too.

If Trump could win, we'd get another chance and maybe a better candidate in 4 years. If Clinton wins, we could have to deal with her crazy ass for 8 years, possibly.

I think you aren't seeing the whole Trump presidency and what he could actually do.  He could start sending jets over Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and bombing the hell out of those countries.  He could send troops.  He could launch preemptive nuclear strikes. We could be involved in two more wars in 4 years.  And those are just the places that are currently hot spots... there could be more by then.  He could mass troops on the southern border, at a massive cost, and increase the size of our deportation enforcement system, at a massive cost, so that in the end, we can tank the economy of our agricultural areas, drive farms into either welfare or shut them down completely, and thus reduce our internal food safety net and increase our reliance on food from outside the country.  Not to mention the large number of people working in hospitality professions, cleaning, etc.  These are not jobs that, once we deport them, Americans are going to fill. If they were willing to work that hard for that little, they already would be.   These are just the things we know he wants to do.  Your perspective is "no one would deport all these people".  But that's what Trump says he will do, every time he talks about it.  Every time.  In fact, it seems to be his number one priority.

charger — Sep 02, 2016I think you aren't seeing the whole Trump presidency and what he could actually do.  He could start sending jets over Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and bombing the hell out of those countries.  He could send troops.  He could launch preemptive nuclear strikes. We could be involved in two more wars in 4 years.  And those are just the places that are currently hot spots... there could be more by then.  He could mass troops on the southern border, at a massive cost, and increase the size of our deportation enforcement system, at a massive cost, so that in the end, we can tank the economy of our agricultural areas, drive farms into either welfare or shut them down completely, and thus reduce our internal food safety net and increase our reliance on food from outside the country.  Not to mention the large number of people working in hospitality professions, cleaning, etc.  These are not jobs that, once we deport them, Americans are going to fill. If they were willing to work that hard for that little, they already would be.   These are just the things we know he wants to do.  Your perspective is "no one would deport all these people".  But that's what Trump says he will do, every time he talks about it.  Every time.  In fact, it seems to be his number one priority.

No doubt you have some "fear" issues concerning Trump. The congress and senate, nor his advisors, would allow that kind of stupidity. Trumps latest deal is to deport people that are here illegally and have committed crimes. That is fine with me. He may be able to do that. But, I can't see the possibility of anything past that.

Hookbender — Sep 05, 2016[quote author=charger link=1470686102/50#69 date=1472849510]I think you aren't seeing the whole Trump presidency and what he could actually do.  He could start sending jets over Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and bombing the hell out of those countries.  He could send troops.  He could launch preemptive nuclear strikes. We could be involved in two more wars in 4 years.  And those are just the places that are currently hot spots... there could be more by then.  He could mass troops on the southern border, at a massive cost, and increase the size of our deportation enforcement system, at a massive cost, so that in the end, we can tank the economy of our agricultural areas, drive farms into either welfare or shut them down completely, and thus reduce our internal food safety net and increase our reliance on food from outside the country.  Not to mention the large number of people working in hospitality professions, cleaning, etc.  These are not jobs that, once we deport them, Americans are going to fill. If they were willing to work that hard for that little, they already would be.   These are just the things we know he wants to do.  Your perspective is "no one would deport all these people".  But that's what Trump says he will do, every time he talks about it.  Every time.  In fact, it seems to be his number one priority.

No doubt you have some "fear" issues concerning Trump. The congress and senate, nor his advisors, would allow that kind of stupidity. Trumps latest deal is to deport people that are here illegally and have committed crimes. That is fine with me. He may be able to do that. But, I can't see the possibility of anything past that.


We are already doing that.

If we are doing that now, great. But, he can't deport 11 million or so people. More than likely, he won't build a wall, and more than likely X10, Mexico won't pay for it. Most of the stuff he has no chance of accomplishing. Then Clinton wants to rebuild our roads, she's gonna create $50, 000 year jobs, and on and on and on. Ain't gonna happen and we both know it. So, they both lie. So, either you vote for the lie that sounds the most to your liking, or you vote for the the party of your choice. I don't know how long H Clinton has been in politics, but I'll bet my house the good she's done will be laughable compared to the years she's been involved in politics. She ain't no over achiever, imo.  

Hookbender — Sep 08, 2016If we are doing that now, great. But, he can't deport 11 million or so people. More than likely, he won't build a wall, and more than likely X10, Mexico won't pay for it. Most of the stuff he has no chance of accomplishing. Then Clinton wants to rebuild our roads, she's gonna create $50, 000 year jobs, and on and on and on. Ain't gonna happen and we both know it. So, they both lie. So, either you vote for the lie that sounds the most to your liking, or you vote for the the party of your choice. I don't know how long H Clinton has been in politics, but I'll bet my house the good she's done will be laughable compared to the years she's been involved in politics. She ain't no over achiever, imo.  

Wait-- you think $50,000 a year jobs are a lie? Man, do you aim low. Jobs that pay far more than that are being created by the thousands every day in the modern economy.  Every day in my office, I see new H1-B job postings, for software engineers, test engineers, etc.  These jobs are in the range of 125k-200k a year, and I know this because H1-B postings require the salary range to be posted.  Do you know what an H1-B is?  It's a special visa that American companies use to hire foreign nationals to work in America, for shitloads of money, because Americans are too stupid to get those jobs.  That's right.  Because Americans are sitting around thinking $50,000 is a ludicrous amount for new jobs, instead of getting the education that will let them work in the new economy for 120k. Instead of getting college degrees in the fields where the jobs are, they are sitting around lamenting the loss of good-paying manufacturing jobs that are never coming back, and blaming illegal immigrants who pick fruit at a salary so low they would NEVER work for it, while meanwhile, "legal" foreign nationals are making 2x,3x,5x that amount because they understand where the jobs are and how to get educated. It's easier to think that high-paying jobs are a myth, and play the lottery, and wonder how you're gonna strike it rich, then to get training and get a good job.  But it's your own damn fault if you continue to think that $50,000 is a mythical number.  I haven't seen a salary in tech that low since the 90's.

Salaries that low are commonplace in my industry (broadcasting).

Makes me really wish I had stuck with Computer Science when I was in college... :(
Tripper

Yeah, there are a lot of industries where salaries are that low or lower, and there are a lot of places in the country where that can still buy you a house.

But the idea that Clinton is living in a fairyland by saying she's going to create $50,000 jobs is just uninformed.  Those jobs are being created by the ton already, and they will continue to be created, regardless of who is president.

You definitely should have stayed with computer science, says the lit major.

charger — Sep 08, 2016[quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/50#72 date=1473297102]If we are doing that now, great. But, he can't deport 11 million or so people. More than likely, he won't build a wall, and more than likely X10, Mexico won't pay for it. Most of the stuff he has no chance of accomplishing. Then Clinton wants to rebuild our roads, she's gonna create $50, 000 year jobs, and on and on and on. Ain't gonna happen and we both know it. So, they both lie. So, either you vote for the lie that sounds the most to your liking, or you vote for the the party of your choice. I don't know how long H Clinton has been in politics, but I'll bet my house the good she's done will be laughable compared to the years she's been involved in politics. She ain't no over achiever, imo.  

Wait-- you think $50,000 a year jobs are a lie? Man, do you aim low. Jobs that pay far more than that are being created by the thousands every day in the modern economy.  Every day in my office, I see new H1-B job postings, for software engineers, test engineers, etc.  These jobs are in the range of 125k-200k a year, and I know this because H1-B postings require the salary range to be posted.  Do you know what an H1-B is?  It's a special visa that American companies use to hire foreign nationals to work in America, for shitloads of money, because Americans are too stupid to get those jobs.  That's right.  Because Americans are sitting around thinking $50,000 is a ludicrous amount for new jobs, instead of getting the education that will let them work in the new economy for 120k. Instead of getting college degrees in the fields where the jobs are, they are sitting around lamenting the loss of good-paying manufacturing jobs that are never coming back, and blaming illegal immigrants who pick fruit at a salary so low they would NEVER work for it, while meanwhile, "legal" foreign nationals are making 2x,3x,5x that amount because they understand where the jobs are and how to get educated. It's easier to think that high-paying jobs are a myth, and play the lottery, and wonder how you're gonna strike it rich, then to get training and get a good job.  But it's your own damn fault if you continue to think that $50,000 is a mythical number.  I haven't seen a salary in tech that low since the 90's.

Calm down American hater.

First, let me clarify my point. The "President" can't "create" jobs of any kind.....unless, the President creates a government program. Which, get charged to the middle class. Republican or Democrat. That was my point, which, goddamn, you didn't get close too. My damn bad on that one, jeeeezzzzzz.

2nd, (did you like that one?) what do I preach here? Answer, education. I mention it all the time. So, we need better education. But, imo, we need to modify the better education. I think we need to educate young people about the importance of education as well. I could go on and on on that one. But......

Checked the cost of education lately? College? Even if you want a good public education, it could require living in more expensive neighborhoods, city's, states, etc. If you want a GOOD education, even in elementary, middle and high school, hell, even that could cost the hell out of you. Private schools, expensive. And....

Family values. Or, just plain values, period. Gone to the shitter. Long gone are the days of responsible decisions, especially when kids are involved, as far as marriage goes. Dads become glorified baby sitters whether they want to be or not, and whether or not their at fault. And our courts applaud that because of a few worm turds. I could get deep into this one too.

So, I don't think Americans are "stupid". I make just over 50k and I would have plenty of money to live comfortably, have toys and shit, no problem.....if my ex wouldn't have fucked the neighbor and fucked me. And look, you live in Cali, baby. $125,000 in Cali, that ain't rich. And I wouldn't want to live there either. Too fast for me. I just about went insane living in Atlanta. I worked 8 or 9 hours a day, and drove about 3 to 4 hours a day on top of that. 29 miles from my office. It sucked the life out of me. It was depressing.

Yeah, but if I remember correctly, Charger's in Santa Cruz - which is a pretty awesome place that is very chill. Not at all like LA or SF hustle-and-bustle.

Tripper

Hookbender — Sep 09, 2016[quote author=charger link=1470686102/50#73 date=1473364163][quote author=Hookbender link=1470686102/50#72 date=1473297102]If we are doing that now, great. But, he can't deport 11 million or so people. More than likely, he won't build a wall, and more than likely X10, Mexico won't pay for it. Most of the stuff he has no chance of accomplishing. Then Clinton wants to rebuild our roads, she's gonna create $50, 000 year jobs, and on and on and on. Ain't gonna happen and we both know it. So, they both lie. So, either you vote for the lie that sounds the most to your liking, or you vote for the the party of your choice. I don't know how long H Clinton has been in politics, but I'll bet my house the good she's done will be laughable compared to the years she's been involved in politics. She ain't no over achiever, imo.  

Wait-- you think $50,000 a year jobs are a lie? Man, do you aim low. Jobs that pay far more than that are being created by the thousands every day in the modern economy.  Every day in my office, I see new H1-B job postings, for software engineers, test engineers, etc.  These jobs are in the range of 125k-200k a year, and I know this because H1-B postings require the salary range to be posted.  Do you know what an H1-B is?  It's a special visa that American companies use to hire foreign nationals to work in America, for shitloads of money, because Americans are too stupid to get those jobs.  That's right.  Because Americans are sitting around thinking $50,000 is a ludicrous amount for new jobs, instead of getting the education that will let them work in the new economy for 120k. Instead of getting college degrees in the fields where the jobs are, they are sitting around lamenting the loss of good-paying manufacturing jobs that are never coming back, and blaming illegal immigrants who pick fruit at a salary so low they would NEVER work for it, while meanwhile, "legal" foreign nationals are making 2x,3x,5x that amount because they understand where the jobs are and how to get educated. It's easier to think that high-paying jobs are a myth, and play the lottery, and wonder how you're gonna strike it rich, then to get training and get a good job.  But it's your own damn fault if you continue to think that $50,000 is a mythical number.  I haven't seen a salary in tech that low since the 90's.

Calm down American hater.

First, let me clarify my point. The "President" can't "create" jobs of any kind.....unless, the President creates a government program. Which, get charged to the middle class. Republican or Democrat. That was my point, which, goddamn, you didn't get close too. My damn bad on that one, jeeeezzzzzz.

2nd, (did you like that one?) what do I preach here? Answer, education. I mention it all the time. So, we need better education. But, imo, we need to modify the better education. I think we need to educate young people about the importance of education as well. I could go on and on on that one. But......

Checked the cost of education lately? College? Even if you want a good public education, it could require living in more expensive neighborhoods, city's, states, etc. If you want a GOOD education, even in elementary, middle and high school, hell, even that could cost the hell out of you. Private schools, expensive. And....

Family values. Or, just plain values, period. Gone to the shitter. Long gone are the days of responsible decisions, especially when kids are involved, as far as marriage goes. Dads become glorified baby sitters whether they want to be or not, and whether or not their at fault. And our courts applaud that because of a few worm turds. I could get deep into this one too.

So, I don't think Americans are "stupid". I make just over 50k and I would have plenty of money to live comfortably, have toys and shit, no problem.....if my ex wouldn't have fucked the neighbor and fucked me. And look, you live in Cali, baby. $125,000 in Cali, that ain't rich. And I wouldn't want to live there either. Too fast for me. I just about went insane living in Atlanta. I worked 8 or 9 hours a day, and drove about 3 to 4 hours a day on top of that. 29 miles from my office. It sucked the life out of me. It was depressing.


Sorry, I disagree.  I see so many people complaining about how there are no jobs, how there is no opportunity.  That's bullshit.  There is a crapload of opportunity and there are a ton of jobs.  Now I'm not saying you or people like you living comfortable lives at 50k+ are stupid.  What I'm saying is that there is this constant running thread about the lack of opportunity, about how America has gone to hell. "Make America Great Again."  Dude... when was the last time America was this great? Sure, it sucks to grow up disadvantaged. Sure, it's hard to get a decent education in some circumstances. But it's possible.  I work with people who went to Cal and Stanford. I also work with people who went to community colleges, learned to write code in trade schools, or taking classed from places like the University of California Extension. A typical class through the UC extension costs under a thousand bucks.  I am of the firm opinion that anyone motivated and reasonably intelligent can make a career move by taking those sorts of classes.  

I'm going to stand by my statement. Americans are stupid.  They have this fucking massive pile of opportunity in front of them, and those jobs are being filled by high-paid foreign nationals.  I work with 75% people from India, Russia, China, and a handful of other countries.  These people understand opportunity, because they live without it.  They've often seen real poverty, war, ethnic strife, corruption.  Here, we've seen a couple of bad quarters at most every handful of years.  Do you know how thankful most developing countries would be to have 4.5% unemployment?  To be able to offer normal people 120k-150k a year?  

You're missing the big picture.  The big picture is, we give those jobs away.  Foreign nationals do those jobs.  You are worried about illegal immigration... a bunch of people taking low-wage jobs.  I am worried that Americans are too lazy and stupid to take the high-paying ones.  Too shortsighted to take the opportunities afforded to them.  Too locked in the thinking that "I'm not smart enough" to get retrained and get killer jobs.  Too ready to blame everyone else for their problems, too unwilling to take what's offered to them. We end up with 130,000 people working legally in high tech from foreign countries.  If those people make an average of 100k, that's 13 BILLION dollars Americans don't earn.  Here's the kicker... an H1-B job can't be offered for less than the wage that you would pay an American worker.  So there is no economic advantage to hiring foreigners for these jobs.  And also, you can't hire an H1-B worker for a job that you've laid off an American from, you have to advertise the job and make a good faith effort to hire an American worker.  This is a situation where American workers have every advantage.  They get priority in hiring.  They are guaranteed a competitive wage.  Companies HAVE to prioritize hiring them.  And on top of that, the visa system is a lottery... there's no guarantee that a company can even get the visa to hire the foreign worker.  And with all those advantages, Americans are not taking advantage.  We are fucking up.  There is no reasonable conclusion but that Americans look at opportunity, and decide, "nope."

As for disparaging California, well, fuck you very much.  We can all shit on each others' states. but the idea that "you wouldn't want to live here" doesn't make your argument any stronger.  It's weak and it's beside the point.  The jobs are here, and they are in other places too.  I would lay heavy odds on there being high-paid tech jobs in your state, too, and H1-B workers filling some of them.  I'm not asking you to make an argument based on your particular situation.  I'm asking you to look at the big picture, and then tell me that Americans are either doing a fine job taking those high-paid jobs, or fucking up by not taking them.

I don't know anything about the tech industry. No comment from me there.

Now, I'm not worried about much of anything in that regard.  As far as illegal people taking any jobs. Just the illegal people coming across the border part. In general. Not a good idea to keep turning your head on this subject in today's world. (Not you, our government.)

Again, your way off point. If you read my post again, I think you would see that. I, personally, don't want to live in a big city. That's all. I'd rather live in the country where it's laid back quiet. Not a dig on the city, dude. I would probably have loved living in Cali when I was young. But, now that I've past 50, I like life to slow down to a crawl when I get home. Small towns. Ahhh yes.

Yes, that's it, "Cali" is one giant city

Yeah, California's got rednecks, liberals, massive agricultural regions, tiny little 10-person towns, coastal megalopolises, mega-suburbs, Google/Apple, deserts, Hollywood, snow, redwoods, forest fires, a border with Mexico...

Looks like that member has ceased to be. Is no more. An Ex-Member.

Whoa, didn't catch that.

Yep...