The Watering Hole

charger — Sep 03, 2014[quote author=Hookbender link=1404776484/175#195 date=1409714195]
It would really piss me off, as a business owner, to have to pay a cashier that doesn't have even a high school education and can't put together a coherent sentence, $15 an hour. I think getting these people at least on the level of a high school education is a essential part of whatever solution their may be.

I also don't think your wild allegations, or interpretation, of what we're discussing beneficial to the discussion. It waist my time of having to respond to it.

This is either incredibly ironic, or very sad.  I didn't even highlight the commas--I understand those are hard.  But something about glass houses and black kettles seems relevant.

Lame. You should know this tactic isn't gonna work on me anymore. When you do this, it's interpreted by me as you have nothing left to add to the discussion. That's fine.

But do you see the irony?

I don't care about irony. Has nothing to do with the discussion.

What's the discussion?  Is it the hate for Walmart strawman or just that lazy, pickle ignoring, idiots don't deserve to filter more money through businesses/services that support the middle class because profits should go straight to the top where they can be used to make these "it's just business, right?" practices legal while you just blame "government"?  They have pitchforks at Home Depot as well as Walmart, still don't see any tho...

Hookbender — Sep 04, 2014[quote author=charger link=1404776484/175#198 date=1409765315][quote author=Hookbender link=1404776484/175#195 date=1409714195]
It would really piss me off, as a business owner, to have to pay a cashier that doesn't have even a high school education and can't put together a coherent sentence, $15 an hour. I think getting these people at least on the level of a high school education is a essential part of whatever solution their may be.

I also don't think your wild allegations, or interpretation, of what we're discussing beneficial to the discussion. It waist my time of having to respond to it.

This is either incredibly ironic, or very sad.  I didn't even highlight the commas--I understand those are hard.  But something about glass houses and black kettles seems relevant.

Lame. You should know this tactic isn't gonna work on me anymore. When you do this, it's interpreted by me as you have nothing left to add to the discussion. That's fine.

Dude, you stated right there in your post how you couldn't justify paying a decent wage to people who can't even form coherent sentences.  And then proceeded to write your own completely incoherent sentences and butcher the English language.  I was just wondering if this applied to you as well--like, should you not make a living wage? Or is it only other people who can't form coherent sentences?  Is it okay for you to not know the difference between "waste" and "waist" but for other people, it means the difference between them making say 50k a year, and them making a crap wage?

Seems like you walked right into that one, and it also seems like a relevant question.  Your criteria for denying people  living wage seems pretty petty and spiteful, when it doesn't keep you from making money.

Hookbender — Sep 04, 2014[quote author=charger link=1404776484/175#196 date=1409764565][quote author=Hookbender link=1404776484/175#195 date=1409714195][quote author=charger link=1404776484/175#194 date=1409676734]So you pretty much agree that we should pull more Americans out of poverty, but just don't think there is any way we should actually do anything, besides the usual platitudes of "people need more education."

Thanks for your input.

Apparently your having trouble reading my post. Let me break it down for you, again.

I think something should be done. I disagree with your solution. It's pretty much that simple.

If I don't like your solution, that doesn't mean I don't like any solution. I never suggested that at all in anything I said.

It would really piss me off, as a business owner, to have to pay a cashier that doesn't have even a high school education and can't put together a coherent sentence, $15 an hour. I think getting these people at least on the level of a high school education is a essential part of whatever solution their may be.

I also don't think your wild allegations, or interpretation, of what we're discussing beneficial to the discussion. It waist my time of having to respond to it.


So what do you think is better.  Checking your ego and paying people who you don't think deserve it more money?  Or slowly watching the market for mid-priced goods and services dissolve as fewer and fewer people can afford to buy anything?

You recognize the problem and haven't stated a solution.  Everybody wants more education.  That's the first thing off any politician't lips.  That's probably the number one promise of every politician ever.  And that's all it ever will be.  A lip service montage, queue the flags and America the Beautiful.  I'm talking real solutions.  You want to get people spending more money, and able to afford more stuff?  Give them more money.  No matter how much education we give people, we still need people working in the bottom level jobs.  Even if everyone had a PhD, there would still be more jobs at mass retailers and fast food and gas stations and etc than anywhere else.  Those jobs are there and always will be.  I am not really concerned with your pride and your mental inability to see people as worth 15$ an hour.  I am concerned that everything will fall apart if no one but the rich and upper middle class can buy anything.

I'd hope like hell I never had that choice to make.

I wasn't aware that I had a responsibility to state a solution. I was merely giving an opinion to your favor of raising the min wage because you don't approve of Walmart's legal business practices. This isn't about people's worth..... and, your concern doesn't justify your solution.


No, of course you don't have a responsibility to do anything,  You can just be like all the other members of a certain party, and merely shit all over every solution that's offered, and never offer your own.  That's certainly a way to engage the discussion.  It's not much of an engagement, but hey, if you just want to say "no" to stuff, I guess at least your mouth is moving, so that's something?

1956

charger — Sep 04, 2014[quote author=Hookbender link=1404776484/200#200 date=1409798210][quote author=charger link=1404776484/175#198 date=1409765315][quote author=Hookbender link=1404776484/175#195 date=1409714195]
It would really piss me off, as a business owner, to have to pay a cashier that doesn't have even a high school education and can't put together a coherent sentence, $15 an hour. I think getting these people at least on the level of a high school education is a essential part of whatever solution their may be.

I also don't think your wild allegations, or interpretation, of what we're discussing beneficial to the discussion. It waist my time of having to respond to it.

This is either incredibly ironic, or very sad.  I didn't even highlight the commas--I understand those are hard.  But something about glass houses and black kettles seems relevant.

Lame. You should know this tactic isn't gonna work on me anymore. When you do this, it's interpreted by me as you have nothing left to add to the discussion. That's fine.

Dude, you stated right there in your post how you couldn't justify paying a decent wage to people who can't even form coherent sentences.  And then proceeded to write your own completely incoherent sentences and butcher the English language.  I was just wondering if this applied to you as well--like, should you not make a living wage? Or is it only other people who can't form coherent sentences?  Is it okay for you to not know the difference between "waste" and "waist" but for other people, it means the difference between them making say 50k a year, and them making a crap wage?

Seems like you walked right into that one, and it also seems like a relevant question.  Your criteria for denying people  living wage seems pretty petty and spiteful, when it doesn't keep you from making money.

I've been shitting on the English language since my arrival here. And when you can't persuade me to agree with you, or I have a different opinion, you and other's  decide to attack my spelling and sentence structure. Nothing new. I'm game. Fire away dick breath.  ;D I get in a hurry at times and I lack typing skills. Sometimes I don't look back and correct my errors. Fuck off.  ;D

Ahhh, just kidding. I'd rather not get into a sparring match of that sort. But feel free if it makes you feel better. It won't bother me.

charger — Sep 04, 2014[quote author=Hookbender link=1404776484/175#199 date=1409797935][quote author=charger link=1404776484/175#196 date=1409764565][quote author=Hookbender link=1404776484/175#195 date=1409714195][quote author=charger link=1404776484/175#194 date=1409676734]So you pretty much agree that we should pull more Americans out of poverty, but just don't think there is any way we should actually do anything, besides the usual platitudes of "people need more education."

Thanks for your input.

Apparently your having trouble reading my post. Let me break it down for you, again.

I think something should be done. I disagree with your solution. It's pretty much that simple.

If I don't like your solution, that doesn't mean I don't like any solution. I never suggested that at all in anything I said.

It would really piss me off, as a business owner, to have to pay a cashier that doesn't have even a high school education and can't put together a coherent sentence, $15 an hour. I think getting these people at least on the level of a high school education is a essential part of whatever solution their may be.

I also don't think your wild allegations, or interpretation, of what we're discussing beneficial to the discussion. It waist my time of having to respond to it.


So what do you think is better.  Checking your ego and paying people who you don't think deserve it more money?  Or slowly watching the market for mid-priced goods and services dissolve as fewer and fewer people can afford to buy anything?

You recognize the problem and haven't stated a solution.  Everybody wants more education.  That's the first thing off any politician't lips.  That's probably the number one promise of every politician ever.  And that's all it ever will be.  A lip service montage, queue the flags and America the Beautiful.  I'm talking real solutions.  You want to get people spending more money, and able to afford more stuff?  Give them more money.  No matter how much education we give people, we still need people working in the bottom level jobs.  Even if everyone had a PhD, there would still be more jobs at mass retailers and fast food and gas stations and etc than anywhere else.  Those jobs are there and always will be.  I am not really concerned with your pride and your mental inability to see people as worth 15$ an hour.  I am concerned that everything will fall apart if no one but the rich and upper middle class can buy anything.

I'd hope like hell I never had that choice to make.

I wasn't aware that I had a responsibility to state a solution. I was merely giving an opinion to your favor of raising the min wage because you don't approve of Walmart's legal business practices. This isn't about people's worth..... and, your concern doesn't justify your solution.


No, of course you don't have a responsibility to do anything,  You can just be like all the other members of a certain party, and merely shit all over every solution that's offered, and never offer your own.  That's certainly a way to engage the discussion.  It's not much of an engagement, but hey, if you just want to say "no" to stuff, I guess at least your mouth is moving, so that's something?

See how your twisting my words. Thats just deflection. Or bullshit.

I haven't had "every solution" presented to me. I've had Chargers and that other guy's opinion from the article you posted that happen to be the exact same. I've had 1 solution presented, and I disagree with it. I have given input though, your just ignoring it. I hate to say this, but Stratman use to do the same thing.   :o I didn't say no to anything, I disagreed with your solution and reasoning. I have no obligation, in this discussion, to offer solutions.

Sorry, messed that up too.  ;D

BINGEWOOD — Sep 04, 2014What's the discussion?  Is it the hate for Walmart strawman or just that lazy, pickle ignoring, idiots don't deserve to filter more money through businesses/services that support the middle class because profits should go straight to the top where they can be used to make these "it's just business, right?" practices legal while you just blame "government"?  They have pitchforks at Home Depot as well as Walmart, still don't see any tho...

Now your getting it. See Charger?

The problem is to complex to just raise the min wage and step away, problem solved. It won't solve anything. May help the poor a bit, but the cycle will continue at small businesses expense. They can't afford to pay people $15.00 per hour, especially in this economy.

For Charger.  ;D

http://humanevents.com/2013/07/19/no-salon-80-percent-of-walmart-workers-arent-on-food-stamps/

Hookbender — Sep 04, 2014[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1404776484/200#203 date=1409814232]What's the discussion?  Is it the hate for Walmart strawman or just that lazy, pickle ignoring, idiots don't deserve to filter more money through businesses/services that support the middle class because profits should go straight to the top where they can be used to make these "it's just business, right?" practices legal while you just blame "government"?  They have pitchforks at Home Depot as well as Walmart, still don't see any tho...

Now your getting it. See Charger?

The problem is to complex to just raise the min wage and step away, problem solved. It won't solve anything. May help the poor a bit, but the cycle will continue at small businesses expense. They can't afford to pay people $15.00 per hour, especially in this economy.

Ahhh back to "small businesses", they were exempted earlier...

Excepted from what? Earlier? I don't know what your talking about.

Earlier in the discussion, maybe it was more like a sliding scale based on number of employees.

That was Charger saying that, or suggesting as an option..... that. Not me. If that's what you mean?

Did you notice how I spelled "exempted" ?  ;D ;D ;D

It was kinda close at least, maybe not close enough to deserve a living wage according to yer rules, but you'll do ok at $7.25/hr, right?

My point was that people living in the projects, for example, with no car, very little education, no internet probably, sometimes a phone sometimes not, sometimes food, sometimes not, etc...... some are hungry to do better in life. Some would be crazy happy for a person to show these people a way out, give them tools to help them, like a ged and a cheap laptop, and a outline step by step plan for them to succeed. Get them to set goals for themselves. Require them to work for the Military in noncombat U.S. only jobs or duties. Public service of some kind. The options to help poor people are endless. You just have to think outside the little square box. It's such a gamble to limit options when trying to correct problems. Very black or white thinking. I'm the great one, raise the min wage to $15 per hour because I live in California..... again, California .... and I have a friend that couldn't survive on $11 an hour, $11. ??, whatever...... in California. And this friend depended on government assistance in addition to that. In California. And Walmart's employee's , to the tune of 80%, get government assistance as well. I hate Walmart. I ain't shoppin there...... It's horse-shit. That's a ridiculous thought process.

I'm just saying, their can be more than one solution, in operation at the same time. Verses, doing something drastic and knee jerk that doesn't fix the problem, only puts a band aid on it.

Maybe throw 'em in a pit and let 'em fight as entertainment, you could call it sports...

You poor idiot.  ;D ;D

BINGEWOOD — Sep 06, 2014Maybe throw 'em in a pit and let 'em fight as entertainment, you could call it sports...

Yeah, and you and people who think like you, could drive around in a big bus full of money and every time you see a person with a problem just throw them a sack full of money. In fact, I think you and Charger should go to your local Walmart and help a few people there. Just pay them an extra $100 a week. As many as you can afford.  

Hookbender — Sep 04, 2014[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1404776484/200#203 date=1409814232]What's the discussion?  Is it the hate for Walmart strawman or just that lazy, pickle ignoring, idiots don't deserve to filter more money through businesses/services that support the middle class because profits should go straight to the top where they can be used to make these "it's just business, right?" practices legal while you just blame "government"?  They have pitchforks at Home Depot as well as Walmart, still don't see any tho...

Now your getting it. See Charger?

The problem is to complex to just raise the min wage and step away, problem solved. It won't solve anything. May help the poor a bit, but the cycle will continue at small businesses expense. They can't afford to pay people $15.00 per hour, especially in this economy.

Oh, you care about small businesses?  Well, they can't afford to compete against WalMart anyway.  If there's a WalMart in town, and the small business sells goods that WalMart also sells, that business is fucked anyway.  

I'll back off 80% because that number seems unsubstantiated.  However, how about 6.2 billion a year for Walmart workers?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/

OK. How about it? Not sure where I stand on that. Off the top of my head I think we have a huge problem with government and it's passing of laws that would enable that to begin with.

Meaning you think the poor shouldn't get any public assistance? Or meaning that we should pass some sort of LAW that doesn't let giant corporations fuck the poor (hint)?

charger — Sep 09, 2014Meaning you think the poor shouldn't get any public assistance? Or meaning that we should pass some sort of LAW that doesn't let giant corporations fuck the poor (hint)?

I would consider that, but it wouldn't be fair. How can we morally write laws to take more profits from a handful of businesses that are lagit?

Corperations aren't the only ones fucking the poor, the poor are and have fucked themselves in a lot of cases. Past and present. Are you going to suggest we write laws for people who have no desire to improve themselves? Maybe hand them a bag full of money every month?

I don't think government assistance is a bad thing unless it's run like it is now.

Hookbender — Sep 09, 2014[quote author=charger link=1404776484/200#224 date=1410301615]Meaning you think the poor shouldn't get any public assistance? Or meaning that we should pass some sort of LAW that doesn't let giant corporations fuck the poor (hint)?

I would consider that, but it wouldn't be fair. How can we morally write laws to take more profits from a handful of businesses that are lagit?

Corperations aren't the only ones fucking the poor, the poor are and have fucked themselves in a lot of cases. Past and present. Are you going to suggest we write laws for people who have no desire to improve themselves? Maybe hand them a bag full of money every month?

I don't think government assistance is a bad thing unless it's run like it is now.


Dude-in what universe do you liken paying WORKING people more "handing out bags of money," but say that government assistance (giving money to NON-WORKING people) isn't a bad thing?  Are you fucking serious?

I've been in this conversation with you long enough now to realize two things.
1) You have a very strong bias against people who work in low-paying jobs. In fact, you seem to have a stronger bias against the working poor than against people who DON'T WORK.
2) You believe that everybody can make more money, if they just get better educated, trained, work harder, and have more motivation.

What you fail consistently to acknowledge is that
1) Not everyone can be rich.
2) No matter how motivated or educated our workforce is, we are still going to have those jobs at the bottom. 15% of work is in retail or wholesale. 10% is in hospitality- food service etc. That's 25% of people who are going to work at the bottom of our economy. Those jobs will need to get filled. And there aren't jobs for all those people in other industries.  It's not like if everyone trains to be a network engineer, suddenly there will be network engineering jobs for 100% of the country.  That's not how the job market works.

Hookbender — Sep 09, 2014
I would consider that, but it wouldn't be fair. How can we morally write laws to take more profits from a handful of businesses that are lagit?

Are you saying the minimum wage is not moral? Are you saying that taxation is not moral?  And when did "morality" start to be our basis for laws? If we were "moral" wouldn't we write laws that helped the poor instead of mostly helping the rich?

Hooky,

Do you think that everyone should be rich? or could be rich?

Do you realize that the economy in California is nothing like the economy in any of the SEC states?

Do you believe that those that work hard will or could become rich because they have worked so hard to get there?


Here's my thoughts on those questions.  Not everyone can be rich.  It's not because of the system.  The system sucks in ways, but I think a persons drive has way more to do with their success.  For example, in my state.....I of all people am pretty fucking educated.  I have two degrees.  If I applied my knowledge to one of many OTHER professions, based on my level of education I COULD be a millionaire at least.  Some people choose the line of work they LOVE.   I chose education.  I make $67,000 a year.  I'm in administration.  My wife that does NOT have a college education....well she has part of one....but NO college degree...works in the same community and make more than double what I make.  

Now I'll be the first to admit....I should be able to call bullshit.  But I'm going to be honest.  That shit all spends the same!  So One might say I married up.  

When I got into education I think I started out at around $28,000.  14 years ago.....that wasn't bad money for a kid in Kentucky.  The hell of it was that I was offered $60,000 to take a factory job right before I graduated college the first time.  I could be making retarded money right now 14 years later with that company.  But like I said, some people pick their career because that's what they want to do.  Money isn't the driving factor as to why they do it.  There is a ton of intrinsic value in my career.  The difference I get to personally make in a persons life every day for out weighs....for me, the money I make.  

It's taken me 14 years in the same line of work and I haven't even tripled my money.  My old lady on the other hand started out as a temporary secretary and is now a director in the same company.  The difference in money she was making when she started out to what she is making now is mind blowing given her level of education.  The chick is smart and damned good at what she does.   But she HATES her fucking job.  They pay her too well in this economy to quit it.  

some people are just happy with what they got.  

Hell I know poor people that LOVE being poor.  Not because they like sucking on the tit of the government.  They just think "mo' money, mo' problems" and they are happy as fuck making DICK.  They ain't even abusing the system.  It's the life they love.  They have a shit job.  they hate the job but it affords them exactly what they fucking want.

My wife works for Warren Buffet.  Rich as fuck and cheap like charger.  He doesn't buy all this fancy shit.  He has more money than god.  So yeah while he could be an economy by himself, he sits on most of it.  He is insanely frugal.  charger doesn't buy fancy shit.  He looks at something he wants and goes....fuck I could build THAT for a fraction of what I could buy it for.  

I think the element of the argument you might be missing is that, "what are people getting out of what they have?"  and "Is that enough....FOR THEM?"  I think you will find it is!

I dream about a Pagani Zonda.  I ain't ever gonna make the moves in life to get one.  Does that make me lazy or just happy enough with what I have?

It would be nice to be able to afford a ridiculous boat.  I have a 20 foot jet boat.  Not expensive.  Very nice though.  I get comments everytime I'm at the lake from guys with 3 times the money in their similar size boat.  I'd love to have a house boat....but I am NEVER gonna drop the money on one.  I'd have to sell my house and LIVE on that boat to justify buying it.  I'd rather go to the lake and party on my friends house boats.  It's way fucking cheaper!  I can drop $150 to boat all weekend in my boat.  My buddy drops $2500 to drive his house boat around for the weekend.  FUCK THAT!  

Yes some people are poor.  They lack the education more often than not to know what to do to be successful.  They don't apply themselves very well tends to be the argument and that's why people like you think they are lazy.  I firmly believe that there are  people out there that are poor simply because they do not know any better.  They can't even begin to think of what moves to make to get ahead.  They never had someone teach them what to do or how to do it.  They have no drive because they have no idea of what is possible.  As big as they can dream they have no way to see how to get from where they are at to where they want to be.  They cannot plan or even set attainable goals because what they want requires more than they even understand.  

I agree with you in that you can't throw money at the problem and fix it.  You can't sit around and say people are just lazy fucks and fix anything either.  Educate the ignorant and you will have more people with better paying jobs, because they will have the skill sets needed to do so.

BTW I know people with multiple degree that are dumb as fuck and I could grab 100 average Joes on a given day that with nothing but street smarts and a dash of common sense could do a way better job at THAT guys job than what THAT guy is doing.  The difference?  Education.  

charger — Sep 10, 2014[quote author=Hookbender link=1404776484/225#225 date=1410306574][quote author=charger link=1404776484/200#224 date=1410301615]Meaning you think the poor shouldn't get any public assistance? Or meaning that we should pass some sort of LAW that doesn't let giant corporations fuck the poor (hint)?

I would consider that, but it wouldn't be fair. How can we morally write laws to take more profits from a handful of businesses that are lagit?

Corperations aren't the only ones fucking the poor, the poor are and have fucked themselves in a lot of cases. Past and present. Are you going to suggest we write laws for people who have no desire to improve themselves? Maybe hand them a bag full of money every month?

I don't think government assistance is a bad thing unless it's run like it is now.


Dude-in what universe do you liken paying WORKING people more "handing out bags of money," but say that government assistance (giving money to NON-WORKING people) isn't a bad thing?  Are you fucking serious?

I've been in this conversation with you long enough now to realize two things.
1) You have a very strong bias against people who work in low-paying jobs. In fact, you seem to have a stronger bias against the working poor than against people who DON'T WORK.
2) You believe that everybody can make more money, if they just get better educated, trained, work harder, and have more motivation.

What you fail consistently to acknowledge is that
1) Not everyone can be rich.
2) No matter how motivated or educated our workforce is, we are still going to have those jobs at the bottom. 15% of work is in retail or wholesale. 10% is in hospitality- food service etc. That's 25% of people who are going to work at the bottom of our economy. Those jobs will need to get filled. And there aren't jobs for all those people in other industries.  It's not like if everyone trains to be a network engineer, suddenly there will be network engineering jobs for 100% of the country.  That's not how the job market works.


1) No, I don't. I have no bias against people with low paying jobs. You have a hard time comprehending things, my brotha.

2) Spot on. I do think that people can, and will, do better with the right kind of help. That doesn't include "giving" people bags of money every month. It means giving them a tool box full of opportunity. If a person is "given" the free opportunity to be educated through high school, and they refuse it, an opportunity that could lead to said person being "given" a college education through good grades, "government assistance programs", etc, and they have refused it, why is that suddenly something all businesses should cover? If people aren't motivated enough to work 2 or 3 jobs, whatever it takes, why do you want to force businesses to provide for these people's bad decisions?

Now for the second part....

1) Now, stop and show me where I said everyone can be rich. What, you can't? That's because I never said that. It's just bullshit that I have to respond to which equals wasting my time again with your pointless accusations.

2) If your going to have low paying jobs at the bottom, why raise the min wage? If your having low paying jobs on the bottom, more than likely your going to have that number of people on government assistance. So why are you set on hurting all businesses because you don't like Walmart?  

When I think of government assistance, it's short term help for people going through a bad time, long term help for people who can't work for physical or mental reasons. I don't think government assistance has a responsibility to take care of healthy people who chose not to work at all. And working 20 hours a week at 7-11 and bitching about not having enough money to make it isn't effort on the persons part. It's called lazy.

Using the poor folks as a excuse to harm Walmart, which the poor shop at by the way in big numbers, is in no way a good argument to raise the min wage to $15 per hour which would hurt all businesses. So, you raise the cost of doing business for Walmart, Walmart has to raise prices, and you still hurt the poor. You hurt all poor folks, not just the ones that work at Walmart. For every action, their is a reaction. Hopefully your suggestion to raise min wage to $15 per hour won't happen, but if it does, call Walmart and have them stock up on band aids.

Fenderbender — Sep 11, 2014Hooky,

Do you think that everyone should be rich? or could be rich?

Do you realize that the economy in California is nothing like the economy in any of the SEC states?

Do you believe that those that work hard will or could become rich because they have worked so hard to get there?


Here's my thoughts on those questions.  Not everyone can be rich.  It's not because of the system.  The system sucks in ways, but I think a persons drive has way more to do with their success.  For example, in my state.....I of all people am pretty fucking educated.  I have two degrees.  If I applied my knowledge to one of many OTHER professions, based on my level of education I COULD be a millionaire at least.  Some people choose the line of work they LOVE.   I chose education.  I make $67,000 a year.  I'm in administration.  My wife that does NOT have a college education....well she has part of one....but NO college degree...works in the same community and make more than double what I make.  

Now I'll be the first to admit....I should be able to call bullshit.  But I'm going to be honest.  That shit all spends the same!  So One might say I married up.  

When I got into education I think I started out at around $28,000.  14 years ago.....that wasn't bad money for a kid in Kentucky.  The hell of it was that I was offered $60,000 to take a factory job right before I graduated college the first time.  I could be making retarded money right now 14 years later with that company.  But like I said, some people pick their career because that's what they want to do.  Money isn't the driving factor as to why they do it.  There is a ton of intrinsic value in my career.  The difference I get to personally make in a persons life every day for out weighs....for me, the money I make.  

It's taken me 14 years in the same line of work and I haven't even tripled my money.  My old lady on the other hand started out as a temporary secretary and is now a director in the same company.  The difference in money she was making when she started out to what she is making now is mind blowing given her level of education.  The chick is smart and damned good at what she does.   But she HATES her fucking job.  They pay her too well in this economy to quit it.  

some people are just happy with what they got.  

Hell I know poor people that LOVE being poor.  Not because they like sucking on the tit of the government.  They just think "mo' money, mo' problems" and they are happy as fuck making DICK.  They ain't even abusing the system.  It's the life they love.  They have a shit job.  they hate the job but it affords them exactly what they fucking want.

My wife works for Warren Buffet.  Rich as fuck and cheap like charger.  He doesn't buy all this fancy shit.  He has more money than god.  So yeah while he could be an economy by himself, he sits on most of it.  He is insanely frugal.  charger doesn't buy fancy shit.  He looks at something he wants and goes....fuck I could build THAT for a fraction of what I could buy it for.  

I think the element of the argument you might be missing is that, "what are people getting out of what they have?"  and "Is that enough....FOR THEM?"  I think you will find it is!

I dream about a Pagani Zonda.  I ain't ever gonna make the moves in life to get one.  Does that make me lazy or just happy enough with what I have?

It would be nice to be able to afford a ridiculous boat.  I have a 20 foot jet boat.  Not expensive.  Very nice though.  I get comments everytime I'm at the lake from guys with 3 times the money in their similar size boat.  I'd love to have a house boat....but I am NEVER gonna drop the money on one.  I'd have to sell my house and LIVE on that boat to justify buying it.  I'd rather go to the lake and party on my friends house boats.  It's way fucking cheaper!  I can drop $150 to boat all weekend in my boat.  My buddy drops $2500 to drive his house boat around for the weekend.  FUCK THAT!  

Yes some people are poor.  They lack the education more often than not to know what to do to be successful.  They don't apply themselves very well tends to be the argument and that's why people like you think they are lazy.  I firmly believe that there are  people out there that are poor simply because they do not know any better.  They can't even begin to think of what moves to make to get ahead.  They never had someone teach them what to do or how to do it.  They have no drive because they have no idea of what is possible.  As big as they can dream they have no way to see how to get from where they are at to where they want to be.  They cannot plan or even set attainable goals because what they want requires more than they even understand.  

I agree with you in that you can't throw money at the problem and fix it.  You can't sit around and say people are just lazy fucks and fix anything either.  Educate the ignorant and you will have more people with better paying jobs, because they will have the skill sets needed to do so.

BTW I know people with multiple degree that are dumb as fuck and I could grab 100 average Joes on a given day that with nothing but street smarts and a dash of common sense could do a way better job at THAT guys job than what THAT guy is doing.  The difference?  Education.  

First, good to hear from you mother fucker.  :)

I have to quote you here.

"Yes some people are poor.  They lack the education more often than not to know what to do to be successful.  They don't apply themselves very well tends to be the argument and that's why people like you think they are lazy.  I firmly believe that there are  people out there that are poor simply because they do not know any better.  They can't even begin to think of what moves to make to get ahead.  They never had someone teach them what to do or how to do it.  They have no drive because they have no idea of what is possible.  As big as they can dream they have no way to see how to get from where they are at to where they want to be.  They cannot plan or even set attainable goals because what they want requires more than they even understand. "

This is exactly the kind of problems I've been saying need to be addressed. If you've read the entire thread, this is what I've been preaching. Helping people in these ways with the problems you mention. I assume you agree with me and haven't read the entire thread, which is understandable but not excusable. The goal isn't to make everyone rich, it's to give them the tools they need to set goals for themselves and a plan to better themselves.

I don't want to get into people making decisions to make less money. As long as your making it without government assistance, I got no problem with it. The most important thing to me is to have a job you either love, like yourself it seems, or can live with, like me, and are happy. Money and things are not gonna make you happy. Being rich  would be nice, but that's never been a goal of mine. Finding peace within myself and being happy myself has always been a priority. For some reason, getting away from religion has really allowed me to concentrate on those things. And if you have peace within yourself, and are happy as a individual, I feel like the other things will come. Like, guitars, amps, pot, you know.... shit like that.   ;D

(I said pot  ;D ;D)

I didn't mean to imply that education is the answer to everything. There are other factors. but it is damn important. For example, my job would be much easier with an education. (college) I have to work longer, and maybe harder at times than most at my company mostly because I don't have the skills to be able to do what I do quicker. So, I have to work more hours to do the same thing other's do within the given time.

First, I agree that we need better educated people.  Especially in the science, math, engineering fields.  I see this every day because in the valley we can't find people to hire. We (silicon valley, not just my company) use up our entire allotment of H1-B visas, to hire foreign workers, to do insanely technical, high paying jobs, in a matter of days after they are released.

HOWEVER--it doesn't matter how well educated people get. We will still have service jobs. People will still shop at Walmart and eat at McDonald's.  That 25% of our jobs is not going away.  Raising the minimum wage is how we insure that people who make lower wages still make enough to be able to afford to live.  That's the point of a minimum wage.  We put the minimum wage in place because, frankly, we can't trust business to pay people enough to live otherwise.  And at this point, it's too low.  That's why we raise it.  Then, more people can buy stuff.  When more people can buy stuff, and more people can buy nicer stuff, the economy prospers.  Frankly, you seem to care a little too much that the company continues to make insane profit, and not enough that the people make money, and the economy as a whole is healthy.  

The problem with concentrating wealth is obvious, because as people get insanely rich, that doesn't mean they go out and buy the same amount of stuff that their money would buy if it was in the hands of poorer people.  A CEO who makes 3000x what his employees make is not buying 3000x the stuff.  He doesn't have 3000 TVs and 3000 cars.  He has a couple of TVs and cars.  So the money is concentrating at the high end, but not going back into the economy. It's sitting in his bank account, stock portfolio, whatever.  It's not helping the economy to get better.  And the more concentrated wealth becomes, the worse the economy becomes for everyone who's not rich.  If you care about that, you want to do something about it.  Simply hoping that people get better education is not enough.  It's a nice idea that would be super wonderful, and has been consistently crumbling for 50 years. I believe in paying more to lower wage workers.  They spend every dime they make... that's good for everyone.  Not just them.  

You've bitched at me because I put a emphasis on education and now you say you agree with me. Damn man.

I'm not sure it's a good thing for people to spend every dime they make.

Hookbender — Sep 12, 2014You've bitched at me because I put a emphasis on education and now you say you agree with me. Damn man.

It's not bitching to say that the catch-all solution of education ignores so much about the world around us and won't be enough.  Education is great and with a computer, sure, some will be able to rise above their surroundings, but as said before, it's looking more and more like low wage 30hr jobs are the norm among the "it's just business, right?" class since bye bye mass manufacturing/unions.  I know you hate unions but do you hate them all?  Police/Fire unions?  You seem to look down on low wage workers and think they get what they deserve but I think you get what you pay for and if you don't get it, get rid of 'em.  I think paying shit gets you shit in the caring department.  But then again, you seem to think that people are getting paid enough as it is, right.  That's what the California trip is about?  

Hookbender — Sep 12, 2014I'm not sure it's a good thing for people to spend every dime they make.

Which do you think effects the economy more, these people spending less or a small percentage of people saving less?  Depends on the 401k's?  hehh heheheheh


EDIT: Kinda interestin'  

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2014/09/05/obama-outperforms-reagan-on-jobs-growth-and-investing/

"It's not bitching to say that the catch-all solution of education ignores so much about the world around us and won't be enough.  Education is great and with a computer, sure, some will be able to rise above their surroundings, but as said before, it's looking more and more like low wage 30hr jobs are the norm among the "it's just business, right?" class since bye bye mass manufacturing/unions.  I know you hate unions but do you hate them all?  Police/Fire unions?  You seem to look down on low wage workers and think they get what they deserve but I think you get what you pay for and if you don't get it, get rid of 'em.  I think paying shit gets you shit in the caring department.  But then again, you seem to think that people are getting paid enough as it is, right.  That's what the California trip is about?"

I didn't say education was the cure all. I suggested that it be part of the solution. A very important part, imo. Yes, I very much dislike unions of all kinds.

I've been a low wage worker more than half my life. I started working full time, at least 40hrs per week, at age 18. 2 years of college, means nothing..... and a high school diploma. It took me to age 40 or so to hit $50k a year. I do ok in NC, but I know it would be hard to survive on that money in CA. The point is, it takes time and yes, hard work, to make decent money. Doesn't happen over night.

I'd have to do a lot of research to determine if I thought people were getting paid enough now. Don't have time right now.  

Hookbender — Sep 12, 2014?"I didn't say education was the cure all. I suggested that it be part of the solution. A very important part, imo. Yes, I very much dislike unions of all kinds.

I've been a low wage worker more than half my life. I started working full time, at least 40hrs per week, at age 18. 2 years of college, means nothing..... and a high school diploma. It took me to age 40 or so to hit $50k a year. I do ok in NC, but I know it would be hard to survive on that money in CA. The point is, it takes time and yes, hard work, to make decent money. Doesn't happen over night.

I'd have to do a lot of research to determine if I thought people were getting paid enough now. Don't have time right now.  

You kept just saying no to low pay workers getting higher pay from highly successful corps and saying "education", even when a sliding scale was proposed and I referred to $15 as a starting point that fast food workers put forth. No. Sound familiar?  I would imagine that you are really saying that it's up to the business and not a minimum wage from the government.  Hey, does this sound kinda like how you see it?  We should get rid of non temporary gov assistance and there should be no min wage and we go back to pre union conditions, people can work or not work for the big bosss' terms, it's up to them.  This would help with illegal immigration as well because then people who would otherwise not work would take up the jobs that people come here for.  I have heard things like this from right wing pundits and you seemed to hit on some of these talking points, illegals living good, minimum wage is enough to live on, bad decisions to spend all money back into the system, the "couple of people in the projects" who might want to get ahead, etc

You people, Charger and Binge, seem to be more focused on taking my comments out of context and attaching some crazy accusation, like Binge trying to say I'm conservative, and all the crap Charger accuses me of....

So if that's all you have left, I'm finished with this conversation. It's pointless. Your not going to attempt to put me in a position to defend myself of all these accusations. It's a waste of time and untrue.

I disagree with raising the min wage. You haven't given me anything to convince me otherwise. Your gonna have to come up with something better than, I dislike Walmart's business practices. Your painting Walmart as some evil empire. They are a lagit company playing by the rules of law. They employ millions of people. They provide goods and services, in a wide variety, under 1 roof. Raising the min wage won't solve anything. Again, they are following the laws we currently have in place. That's a hint to finding the real problem here. Raising the min wage is not gonna going to address the problem, it's only going to slow down the bleeding for a year or 2 until we get right back to the same problem again. IMHO.

charger — Sep 11, 2014First, I agree that we need better educated people.  Especially in the science, math, engineering fields.  I see this every day because in the valley we can't find people to hire. We (silicon valley, not just my company) use up our entire allotment of H1-B visas, to hire foreign workers, to do insanely technical, high paying jobs, in a matter of days after they are released.

HOWEVER--it doesn't matter how well educated people get. We will still have service jobs. People will still shop at Walmart and eat at McDonald's.  That 25% of our jobs is not going away.  Raising the minimum wage is how we insure that people who make lower wages still make enough to be able to afford to live.  That's the point of a minimum wage.  We put the minimum wage in place because, frankly, we can't trust business to pay people enough to live otherwise.  And at this point, it's too low.  That's why we raise it.  Then, more people can buy stuff.  When more people can buy stuff, and more people can buy nicer stuff, the economy prospers.  Frankly, you seem to care a little too much that the company continues to make insane profit, and not enough that the people make money, and the economy as a whole is healthy.  

The problem with concentrating wealth is obvious, because as people get insanely rich, that doesn't mean they go out and buy the same amount of stuff that their money would buy if it was in the hands of poorer people.  A CEO who makes 3000x what his employees make is not buying 3000x the stuff.  He doesn't have 3000 TVs and 3000 cars.  He has a couple of TVs and cars.  So the money is concentrating at the high end, but not going back into the economy. It's sitting in his bank account, stock portfolio, whatever.  It's not helping the economy to get better.  And the more concentrated wealth becomes, the worse the economy becomes for everyone who's not rich.  If you care about that, you want to do something about it.  Simply hoping that people get better education is not enough.  It's a nice idea that would be super wonderful, and has been consistently crumbling for 50 years. I believe in paying more to lower wage workers.  They spend every dime they make... that's good for everyone.  Not just them.  

I understand what you're saying.  But I think the issue is really inflation in regards to where you are coming from.  As prices inflate, there is a divide in whom can purchase certain items and who can't.  It absolutely blows my parents mind that in their youth they could buy a car for $6,000 brand new and now a car that is a lot of plastic bits is $30,000.  Yes I get there there are all these new gizmo's and doo dad's that weren't around back then, but a lot of that shit is plastic and relatively cheap to manufacture.   I used to make rims for cars and trucks.  I costs $5.00 to make the rim.  The consumer pays a huge mark up on the end of it.  Inflated pricing tactics.  

So we raise minimum wage.  Now a guy has to pay more for his employees.  It's not like he's going to cut his own salary to offset that cost.  Nope, he raises prices.  Which puts you right back in the cycle.  The bottom people are now paying more for what used to be cheaper.  They can still afford it because now they make a bit more money.  But eventually that price will inflate again because everyone has more money thus it's a money grab for the people at the top.  Next thing you know the people at the bottom are wanting to raise minimum wage again and the whole process repeats.

I think a more realistic solution is to take the money at the top and reduce it.  Let's say I'm a $300 M a year CEO.  To go from that to $150 M a year would seem crazy.....but I still have more disposable income than 95% of America.  But by ME taking the pay cut I can easily afford the price of labor and I don't have to raise prices of my product to do so.  Which stops the ridiculous cycle.  

Fenderbender — Sep 13, 2014It's not like he's going to cut his own salary to offset that cost.

I think a more realistic solution is to take the money at the top and reduce it.  Let's say I'm a $300 M a year CEO.  To go from that to $150 M a year would seem crazy.....but I still have more disposable income than 95% of America.  But by ME taking the pay cut I can easily afford the price of labor and I don't have to raise prices of my product to do so.  Which stops the ridiculous cycle.  

?????

Why would they take a pay cut?  How would this help the middle class?

What middle class?

Zaklee...

BINGEWOOD — Sep 14, 2014[quote author=Fenderbender link=1404776484/225#237 date=1410623718]It's not like he's going to cut his own salary to offset that cost.

I think a more realistic solution is to take the money at the top and reduce it.  Let's say I'm a $300 M a year CEO.  To go from that to $150 M a year would seem crazy.....but I still have more disposable income than 95% of America.  But by ME taking the pay cut I can easily afford the price of labor and I don't have to raise prices of my product to do so.  Which stops the ridiculous cycle.  

?????

Why would they take a pay cut?  How would this help the middle class?

Who said anything about the middle class? One of 2 things will have to happen if the min wage is raised to $15 per hour. The owners will have to cut their profit/income to afford the higher payroll, or the prices will go up on the product they sell and the owner maintains their profit/income. What do you think will happen? Duhhh

I think thats what you were getting at FB, excuse me for guessing what you meant by your post.

Have you ever considered this? The owners don't need Walmart anymore. They shut the doors and the good ole middle class, whats left of them, gets 2 million more folks to take care of. To big to fail is going through your mind, right? Well, they achieved the American dream legally. How much harder are you going to make it for business? Government is fucking every business owner in America as we speak with stupid bullshit. So, you want to give government the power to dictate at will, anytime they want, how much they have to pay employees? Get real.

It's painfully obvious that you and Charger have never run a business.

"It's just business, right?"

I guess I was asking if Fenderbender was talking about just reducing CEO pay or to reducing it to cover raising the price of labor.


It seemed like the idea going on in the article was that highly successful huge corporations have a good thing going where they pay the majority of their workforce shit so that they can qualify for gov assistance (which can then be used back in the company store, hopefully with a discount) and that these people put their money back UP into the system.  Giving them more money would put more money back into the system which supports the middle class, giving more to the people at the top doesn't put as much back into the system by a long shot.  I get what you're saying about there being changes that would happen but I don't know that they would go like you are laying out.


EDIT: I will admit to never having run a megacorp...

Yeah. Not the point. You show no knowledge of running any business. Even a single Burger King. Have you ever looked at a P&L statement? Do you even know what that is without looking it up?

If this is your view of what's happening, you may join the ranks of the great conspiracy theory leaders of all times. I'm sure that Walmart thought that it would pay employees as little as they can and let government take care of the rest. Pretty sure that was their business plan.  ;D

What middle class?

Hookbender — Sep 14, 2014 I'm sure that Walmart thought that it would pay employees as little as they can and let government take care of the rest. Pretty sure that was their business plan.  ;D

So what is the current reality?  I thought you were saying that it was good business practice and that these employees don't deserve more pay based on their station in life not the success of the business.

"It seemed like the idea going on in the article was that highly successful huge corporations have a good thing going where they pay the majority of their workforce shit and they qualify for gov assistance (which can then be used back in the company store, hopefully with a discount) and that these people put their money back UP into the system."

Better?



You think that the single franchise owner has a lot of say over the people running tings?

"Burger King, often abbreviated as BK, is a global chain of hamburger fast food restaurants headquartered in unincorporated Miami-Dade County, Florida, United States. The company began in 1953 as Insta-Burger King, a Jacksonville, Florida-based restaurant chain. After Insta-Burger King ran into financial difficulties in 1954, its two Miami-based franchisees, David Edgerton and James McLamore, purchased the company and renamed it Burger King. Over the next half century, the company would change hands four times, with its third set of owners, a partnership of TPG Capital, Bain Capital, and Goldman Sachs Capital Partners, taking it public in 2002. In late 2010, 3G Capital of Brazil acquired a majority stake in BK in a deal valued at US$3.26 billion. The new owners promptly initiated a restructuring of the company to reverse its fortunes. 3G, along with partner Berkshire Hathaway, eventually merged the company with Canadian-based donut chain Tim Hortons."

IF that's your interpretation of what you think I've said, sorry. I don't see how anything I've said could possibly have given you justice to go to that extreme.

Hookbender — Sep 14, 2014IF that's your interpretation of what you think I've said, sorry. I don't see how anything I've said could possibly have given you justice to go to that extreme.

Anything?  What have you been saying?

I get the pull yourself up by your boot straps parts, but it favors individual opportunity for a few while the other, much larger, group will be left in the initial position.

Your having tunnel vision. Your so focused on these poor folk you want to take drastic action to help them no matter the cost. You don't even want to here another side. No other options are available, right? Your solution is the cure, right? Your absolutely positive that this is the only solution and anyone that apposes your solution is wrong, a conservative, and you must attack them at all cost.

You have any evidence to present that backs up your claim to fame? Show me where history, or studies, show this option will cure the poor folks at Walmarts problems. Don't give me articles with people's same opinion, give me evidence that this solution of yours will fix the problem. Can you do that? Or, is this one of those cases that you now, after stating a claim to fame, have to try to find evidence to back it up?

Even I would agree that the min wage would need to be looked at as part of the solution, but I am very skeptical about this drastic increase being the absolute cure to the underpaid, if that's the case, employees at Walmart.

Am I having tunnel vision or discussing the premise of the article?  It's the only solution that has been brought up.  I believe Charger asked you for alternative ideas, you came up with none.  Can you show me where raising the min wage has resulted in problems before?  Would you be in favor of a less "drastic" increase?

BINGEWOOD — Sep 15, 2014Am I having tunnel vision or discussing the premise of the article?  It's the only solution that has been brought up.  I believe Charger asked you for alternative ideas, you came up with none.  Can you show me where raising the min wage has resulted in problems before?  Would you be in favor of a less "drastic" increase?

Ok. How was earth formed? God made it. Oh, ok.  ;D That must be true then.

I don't have any obligation to provide solutions. None.

I can't prove a negative.

If evidence was provided that showed a increase was a viable solution, yes. However, I doubt this one tactic would have much effect. I think it will take multiple things done at the same time to fix this problem. I would focus on the current laws first. Then study the tax situation with Walmart and tax law period. That's where I would start, probably. I surely wouldn't just blindly, on a whim, raise the min wage to $15 per hour without considering the consequences. Not just because i dislike Walmart.