The Watering Hole

http://www.ifitwasmyhome.com/

Bon posted this in general.

I decided my response  would be far too political for that forum.

The site says this as if it is a fact.

An explosion on the BP operated Deepwater Horizon oil rig killed eleven crew members

In fact It was owned and operated by Transocean - who also owned and provided the faulty Blow Out Protector.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transocean

And the cementing job was done by this lot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton

The Deepwater Horizon oil spill
Halliburton was responsible for cementing the plug in the oil well. Improper cementing may have caused the original blowout.

US companies operating in US waters under US jurisdiction and regulation.
sub contracted by BP.

And on the subject of BP being a British company. it isn't it just has that name from it's original roots.
It is an international

it is 40% British owned, 39% is US.
2/3 of the employees are US.

BP looks like it will be broken by this and probably go bust

But the rot is in the oil industry and practices in the US, any company operating there will have been playing by the same rules.

it is simply chance that a well dug by Transocean and Haliburton blew out catastrophically  under BP, and not Exon

Exon will go ahead and drill more wells using Transocean and Haliburton

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/exxon-mobil-transocean-may-team-up-on-arctic-2010-01-08

This politics of taking the British in BP and making it the issue is simply a political diversionary tactic.

The company is as British as MacDonalds today.
It's operations in the US especially.

Transocean and Haliburton responsible for the blow out - well they go on to cause blowouts again.
The President of the USA has absolved them of blame about 2 months ago - how and why?
It has never been explained.

It is a stitch up.

The oil industry is obviously flawed in digging for oil in places it can't manage
but the US contractors involved are protected out of hand by dictat from a president.

If BP was called AP (which it should be these days) would the politics be different ?

I think it would be.

The other obvious thing - BP has a terrible record in the US, it should go bust on that record.
But it's record is elsewhere is pretty standard.

No Bopal disasters in India like Union Carbide, or Agent Orange escapades going on.

The US domestic oil drilling industry is very likely sick, deals are done based on politics and who you have to use.
Using Haliburton and Transocean would have been part of the deal, corrupt regulators.

Considering this is a huge environmental  disaster and the paramount priority should be to stop the leak

The show leadership by Obama has been clear - his priority was the blame game, the politics.
Ok he can destroy BP - a big fucking victory over the oil leak.

If he destroyed Transocean and Haliburton as well - then at least it would be clear that he is operating on principle rather than political convenience.

But regardless of that - it still wouldn't stop the oil leak.

It should have been left to later - make clear the anger and wait for the investigations.
And focus on stopping the leak, if he though Exon would do better - call them in.

This is a huge disaster for Obama IMO

it's being handled as his katrina. i don't care who gets blamed, i'm saddened we didn't learn our lesson earlier

He really can't win.  He doesn't know shit about how to fix a leaking oil pipe 5000 feet down, and guess what? Neither does anyone else, apparently.

On top of that, the public is mad at him for not getting mad enough.

I don't envy him this job--I be there are a lot of republicans who are thrilled that their party has not been in power for the last two years with all the shit that has come down.

I said the same thing about Bush when the stuff was happening to him. The tides do turn, don't they. ::)

Obama could do more on the clean up side of things.

People are disgusted with Obama for the lack of effort with the clean up and preventing oil from hitting the shore. Just like people were mad at Bush for the slow effort after Katrina.

The disaster is what it is. Neither President had any control of the actual disaster. After the disasters, that's when the big failures came to be.

did you hear they stopped the flow of the pipe? put a wedding ring on it and it quit putting out...

heh heh

Hookbender — Jun 12, 2010I said the same thing about Bush when the stuff was happening to him. The tides do turn, don't they. ::)

Obama could do more on the clean up side of things.

People are disgusted with Obama for the lack of effort with the clean up and preventing oil from hitting the shore. Just like people were mad at Bush for the slow effort after Katrina.

The disaster is what it is. Neither President had any control of the actual disaster. After the disasters, that's when the big failures came to be.

Way to celebrate the idiotic comparison of Katrina and this spill. It's not the same thing at all, even though the right REALLY WANTS IT TO BE so they don't have to face the fact that it's their moronic policies that created the conditions for this disaster to happen.

You've been watching too many morons on TV and not using your brain enough.
Tripper

It's exactly the same thing. To little to late by our government. They dragged their feet after Katrina and their doing it again after this explosion. Even your own democrats are bashing Obama, including Bathtub Boy from MSMBC and his sidekick you seem to love and admire.

And while your tossing around blame with the rest of the blame it on Bush crowd, you may want to read this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/31/science/earth/31energy.html

Apparently Obama thought it was safe enough to expand drilling. He even took some of Bush's ideas. Now sit back, drink a beer, and lay the blame for this where it belongs. At Obama's front door. And no, I don't mean the spill itself, I mean the clean up effort. The one thing he has the power to act on after this rig exploded.

Maybe you need to pay more attention.

This is a horrible act of incompetence, again, by our government. And just like it was Bush who received blame after Katrina....and rightfully so....Obama comes in and fucks this up. He's been in charge from day 1, remember????

Member? I member.

You have the brains to be smart most of the time, but concerning Obama, do you have the ability? ;D ;D

Like Charger, probably not. :D

There is really no comparison between a natural disaster and one that is man-made.  The time to prevent this level of destruction was in the week before BP was rushing and cutting corners to save a few million bucks.  Everyone will second-guess the spill response but it seems pretty clear that no matter what we do, it is going to take until August before that well can be even close to stopped.  

This shit is appalling.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-06-14-oil-spill-letter_N.htm

BP apparently rejected advice of a subcontractor, Halliburton Inc., in preparing for a cementing job to close up the well. BP rejected Halliburton's recommendation to use 21 "centralizers" to make sure the casing ran down the center of the well bore. Instead, BP used six centralizers.

In an e-mail on April 16, a BP official involved in the decision explained: "It will take 10 hours to install them. I do not like this." Later that day, another official recognized the risks of proceeding with insufficient centralizers but commented: "who cares, it's done, end of story, will probably be fine."

Lovely.  "Will probably be fine" inspires great confidence.

And an expansion of these quotes, from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65D4T120100614

The real disaster with Katrina and the explosion is the failure of our government to limit the harm and or damage afterwards. Of course they were two different occurances, but the disaster, the real one, imo....is the failure of our government to act quickly and do as much as possible to help people and limit damage to our shore lines. The government failed in both respects.

On a different subject...this same government just passed a healthcare bill. And they will be in charge from day 1, apparently.  :-[

charger — Jun 14, 2010And an expansion of these quotes, from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65D4T120100614

Yeah, BP is at fault for the explosion. Obama for after the explosion.

charger — Jun 14, 2010
BP apparently rejected advice of a subcontractor, Halliburton Inc., in preparing for a cementing job to close up the well. BP rejected Halliburton's recommendation to use 21 "centralizers" to make sure the casing ran down the center of the well bore. Instead, BP used six centralizers.

In an e-mail on April 16, a BP official involved in the decision explained: "It will take 10 hours to install them. I do not like this." Later that day, another official recognized the risks of proceeding with insufficient centralizers but commented: "who cares, it's done, end of story, will probably be fine."

Lovely.  "Will probably be fine" inspires great confidence.

I find it amazing anyone  believes Haliburtons ass covering account.
Or Transocean.

They are both huge companies, clearly in hoc and under the protection of the US government.

for example - the blow out protector
OWNED AND INSTALLED BY TRANSOCEAN,
The claim was that BP was at fault for it failing, as they modified it 5 years ago,
duh - how exactly ?


BP is repsonsible for Lehman going bust, Bophal and Agent Orange,
AIG was told by BP to insure subprime and bring the financial system down.

Further more BP was involved in 911 and advised Nixon

BP was behind the Iraq war - It was opposed by Haliburton who considered the opportunity to do more bad cement contracts (under guidance of BP of course) was not enough reason to do the wrong thing, but it did anyway

Yeah sure,

You sound bitter Fingers!  ;)

Hmmm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704307804575234471807539054.html

"Nearly three of every four incidents that triggered federal investigations into safety and other problems on deepwater drilling rigs in the Gulf of Mexico since 2008 have been on rigs operated by Transocean."
In other words, if there's an issue with a rig in the Gulf, chances are it's one operated by Transocean. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it?

CraigBert — Jun 14, 2010You sound bitter Fingers!  ;)

Nah, I have no interest in BP, they can go bust,

so long as those equally festering pustules  - Haliburton and TransOcean go the same way.

especially Haliburton

Hmmm

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/10/why-haven-t-we-heard-from-dick-cheney-on-the-oil-spill-.html#

The story at the time, Trancocean  has changed  it's story  since  ;)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703572504575214593564769072.html

Halliburton also was the cementer on a well that suffered a big blowout last August in the Timor Sea, off Australia. The rig there caught fire and a well leaked tens of thousands of barrels of oil over 10 weeks before it was shut down. The investigation is continuing; Halliburton declined to comment on it.

This stinks

http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/06/australian_oil_well_blowout_fo.html

Halliburton, and Bush. You dispise both. I see threw your smoke. :D

It's back to being Bush's fault right? Does it ever end?  ;D

They worked on the rig and it blew up shortly after.

Then they lay all the blame on BP - Is that not suspicious that immediately after the event Transocean blamed Halliburton.

Then changed their story

Hook, it sounds like you've been playing a Gibson lately.

Fingz, do you  think BP is responsible for the cap n' clean and compensation for the gulf states?

Yes, that is the rules of the casino.

The rest of it, the blame game, that is
a political stitch up by the mafia running the game.

I hear ya.

I dunno fingaz, looks like they had a pretty good idea they were cutting corners in those emails.  Do you think those were fabricated?  What's your call on that?

Need to see an investigation - where all the communications are looked at
not just those selectively released by a company looking at saving it's own ass.

Need to investigate every platform and well to see what standard practice is,
it is common for companies to routinely operate one way while using ass covering
communications.

Why did the BOP fail, that was owned and installed by Transocean.
Same with the cement job by haliburton.

But the main point is this - the whole industry is riven with the same
practices and poor regulation.
It serves them to pretend the case is otherwise.

   

The whole industry is one thing.  On the other hand, this was the deepest well ever drilled.  I'd think to avoid catastrophe, you'd probably want to take every possible precaution when drilling it.  

I can't see defending BP on this one.  

Deep is drilling wells a 1000m below existing industry competence.
This well is just the one that blew, if it hadn't the industry would have gone deeper
until one did.
If the deepest well requires more care, then check the previous deepest wells.
If this one hadn't gone wrong, Haliburton had done it's job or transocean supplied and installed a working BOP it would have gone unnoticed.

But clearly it should be analysed after if a blowout happened 3 or 4 down the line,

for one thing - every BOP installed by Transocean should be treated as suspect.

It is easy to just make it a one company scapegoat.

Transocean is involved  in 75% of incidents in the gulf.

unless Exon and the rest are demonstrably different it should not be assumed

US regulators,  transocean and haliburton have been given an easy ride,


they are being protected  

I don't see why who made what matters. If a BP employee noticed something wrong and made the call to go ahead....they are to blame. Hands down. Doesn't really matter who built what and who owned anything.

I;d give BP a chance by having the investigation, same as you. But I don't see how the emails Charger posted could be explained away. And in the real world, it really doesn't matter what other companies are doing or did when laying blame for this rig exploding. It matters that this particular rig exploded. If things need to be changed industry wide, do it. But that doesn't change the fact, or current opinion that BP's employees made stupid decisions that led to this explosion.

If other compaines happen to be doing the exact same thing BP did and got away with it, that needs to be changed. But saying other companies are doing the same thing doesn't do away with the fault of this disaster.

If it were my decision, I'd want BP to fix as much as possible without having to bankrupt the company. I would put in strict regulations that wouldn't allow this set of circumstances to happen again. Then, I would focus on the oil in the water and move the fuck on. This blame game is gonna fuck everyone of us in the ass at the pump, make things much worse. And Obama needs to beg for help from every country that has an idea, and let the people fix this shit that happens to know how. Or has a decent idea. BP sure isn't the fix. Or doesn't seem to be anyway.

 

BP is already guilty, it has a noose around it's neck.

It is all about the other companies involved in the drilling, if they are culpable they should face a noose as well.

and regulators

Look at all the others EXON etc.
they all have the same spill plan as BP,
there is only one plan.

So in the real world it should matter.
But clearly the real world is about protection and political influence,

and anywhere a scumbag company like Haliburton operates it leaves a stink.

So does BP. obviously.

I really think this is way more serious a problem than we ever imagined. All the Oil executives said they are not equiped to deal with the potential problems a spill like this, or even smaller, can produce. So they are only worried about getting the oil, haven't even considered the riski to the enviroment.

Now Obama is pushing for alternative means of fuel or energy. One day wants to drill for more oil, the next day he wants other energy. This fucker is lost as hell. And hell, lets pray some and hope this goes away while we're at it. The next thing this idiot will do is spend a shit load more money we don't have to push this energy thing. When will this guy realize we're fucking broke?

I'm gonna try to quit paying attention to what Obama is doing. It gets worse everyday.  

You don't think we need other forms of energy?  Are you out of your fucking mind?

Hookbender — Jun 16, 2010So does BP. obviously.

I really think this is way more serious a problem than we ever imagined. All the Oil executives said they are not equiped to deal with the potential problems a spill like this, or even smaller, can produce. So they are only worried about getting the oil, haven't even considered the riski to the enviroment.

Now Obama is pushing for alternative means of fuel or energy. One day wants to drill for more oil, the next day he wants other energy. This fucker is lost as hell. And hell, lets pray some and hope this goes away while we're at it. The next thing this idiot will do is spend a shit load more money we don't have to push this energy thing. When will this guy realize we're fucking broke?

I'm gonna try to quit paying attention to what Obama is doing. It gets worse everyday.  

Are you seriously just getting up to speed on these issues... who told you this?

I like the part where "now" Obama is pushing for alternative energy sources.  As if that wasn't a huge push for him his entire public career.  It's like, wind, solar, nuclear, and geothermal energy didn't exist as viable alternatives, and then, suddenly BP spilled some oil, and now Obama is jumping on a brand new bandwagon.

I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying he'll probably use this oil spill to dream up a huge energy bill that cost billions of damn dollars at a time when we're broke as hell as a country.

I don't even understand why he had this little T.V. plug. Hell, the shit he said was all over the news for the last 50 plus days. Where the fuck has he been? Where is his brain right now? That speech was horrible.

What about this Jones act thing? Why is he not getting rid of that right now. We need other countries help. And the ban on drilling???? Man, that's a brilliant fucking move right there. Why not just nuke the whole coast line and put people out of their missery?

Fucking 60 days after this spill and he decides he's all over this shit??? This coming from the man who said he wanted to restore trust in government. The man who said Bush failed after Katrina, basically. Well damn, he's really doing a bang up job himself with this oil spill. I've never been more proud of our government than I am today. :( Holy damn shit.

From Obama's site:

"President Obama will keep the broken promises to rebuild New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. He and Vice President Biden will take steps to ensure that the federal government will never again allow such catastrophic failures in emergency planning and response to occur. Within weeks of his inauguration, he made a renewed commitment to partner with the people of the Gulf Coast to rebuild now, stronger than ever."

I guess he forgot about the steps, whatever they were suppose to be.

I think you are making a mistake comparing these two issues.  Katrina was a hurricane.  We've had lots and lots of hurricanes.  After a hurricane people need clean water, food, and dry clothes.  We have a pretty good idea of what to do and how to distribute aid.  And we knew 4-5 days before the hurricane hit that it would hit.  

This oil spill gave us no advance warning, and there was no way to adequately prepare for a spill of this magnitude.  Obviously no one has ever plugged a broken pipe at this depth, or it would be done by now.  The fact that the spill is leaking a mile underwater and surfacing all over the fucking place also plays into it.  There is no way to stop it.  There is only cleanup.  I agree that the response doesn't look good, but I am not sure how a spill of this size, unstoppable, and in these circumstances, could ever look good.  You can blame Obama all you want, but I believe that the administration has been on it from the start, but it's of such a magnitude that they are mostly powerless anyway.  

charger — Jun 17, 2010I think you are making a mistake comparing these two issues.  Katrina was a hurricane.  We've had lots and lots of hurricanes.  After a hurricane people need clean water, food, and dry clothes.  We have a pretty good idea of what to do and how to distribute aid.  And we knew 4-5 days before the hurricane hit that it would hit.  

This oil spill gave us no advance warning, and there was no way to adequately prepare for a spill of this magnitude.  Obviously no one has ever plugged a broken pipe at this depth, or it would be done by now.  The fact that the spill is leaking a mile underwater and surfacing all over the fucking place also plays into it.  There is no way to stop it.  There is only cleanup.  I agree that the response doesn't look good, but I am not sure how a spill of this size, unstoppable, and in these circumstances, could ever look good.  You can blame Obama all you want, but I believe that the administration has been on it from the start, but it's of such a magnitude that they are mostly powerless anyway.  

I understand your point.

You assume we don't have any options with clean up and I gave you an example. You liked it. Boom, supose to be in short supply, is sitting in warehouses. Other countries offered help, we rejected it. Obama decides to get serious about the problem 60 days after the explosion. In 60 days, Obama formed a commission. :-? On Obama's own website, he says he wanted faster government response, he didn't deliver after bashing the hell out of Bush for the same screw up. To steel a few of Obama's words....the one thing I won't tollerate as a voter, is no action. :P

Even Obama's cheerleeders, Bathtub Boy and the gay girl, have turned against Obama on this oil spill thing. And I mean the cleanup effort. Yet you remain in denial???? Think what you want, but damn man. Your thinking can't be based on the facts this far. Can they??? there are reports from states where govonors have just took the oil on themselves sinking barges and shit to protect their shores.

And speaking of money....I just have to add this for kicks....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061204152.html

"In a letter to congressional leaders, Obama defended last year's huge economic stimulus package, saying it helped break the economy's free fall, but argued that more spending is urgent and unavoidable. "We must take these emergency measures," he wrote in an appeal aimed primarily at members of his own party."

Spend baby spend. Startin to sound and act like Sarah.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bitch session.... ;D ;D

(I shouldn't have put this post here, my bad)


But I did it anyway ;D ;D ;D ;D

The blowout is a terrible event but, at an all day meeting with our new parent company and the investor group, it was pretty much agreed that the disaster and Obama's speech from yesterday can be a very big positive for our business.  Alternative energies are more in focus now than before - we're getting lots of emails and phone calls just over the last couple of days.

No Craig! Now is not the time to consider alternative energies!  It's too expensive!

The time to deal with alternative energy is... some other time.  Like it has been for the last 30 years.

Well, that IS how they've apparently been paying out the incentives... ::)

If a person has a lot of debt and is just getting by, with a payed for car, but it's ugly....runs fine......would it make sense for him to purchase a new Tahoe? Get futher in debt and possibly not be able to pay the bills? This isn't rocket science. It's common sense. And our government doesn't have common sense.

We have plenty of oil. We are not close to running out. fear tactics don't cut it. We've been in the gulf for years finding oil and capping wells. My friend works on a boat off shore thats been doing just that for about 10 years now. We don't need other energy, it would just be nice to have it. Big difference. I can see having it before we run out of oil though, like in 400 years or so. You sound like the peanut man Charger. Or, the peanut gallery, maybe. ;D (Carter)

charger — Jun 17, 2010No Craig! Now is not the time to consider alternative energies!  It's too expensive!

The time to deal with alternative energy is... some other time.  Like it has been for the last 30 years.

No. The time to spend money on this and cram it down our throats is after people are working again and the economy straightens out. Common sense.

Hookbender — Jun 17, 2010If a person has a lot of debt and is just getting by, with a payed for car, but it's ugly....runs fine......would it make sense for him to purchase a new Tahoe? Get futher in debt and possibly not be able to pay the bills? This isn't rocket science. It's common sense. And our government doesn't have common sense.

We have plenty of oil. We are not close to running out. fear tactics don't cut it. We've been in the gulf for years finding oil and capping wells. My friend works on a boat off shore thats been doing just that for about 10 years now. We don't need other energy, it would just be nice to have it. Big difference. I can see having it before we run out of oil though, like in 400 years or so. You sound like the peanut man Charger. Or, the peanut gallery, maybe. ;D (Carter)

You don't understand the issue if you think we have 400 years.  Yeah, let's not move off petroleum and into alternative energies.  That would be such folly.

Hookbender — Jun 17, 2010

We have plenty of oil. We are not close to running out. fear tactics don't cut it. We've been in the gulf for years finding oil and capping wells. My friend works on a boat off shore thats been doing just that for about 10 years now.

My god, man.  Your friend works on a boat, so drilling in the gulf is a capital idea?  We've only had this one big spill, let's keep rolling the dice?

And meanwhile, blaming Obama for the way he handled it?  Dude, if the oil companies are drilling all over the gulf, and you think that's a fucking great idea, what leg do you have to stand on in your criticism?  You don't even criticize the oil company that caused the spill--clearly, that's a great idea we should keep doing for the next 400 years.  But, they cause a massive disastrous spill, and it's Obama fault?  Drilling is fine, if it wasn't for that pesky Obama?

Does it hurt when you talk out of both sides of your mouth like that?

The corpo-tools have successfully made BamBam the inept villain.  I thought the red states love states' rights and just want the fed gov out of their way...until they need something.  Hook who do you hate more, Bammer or Thad?

BINGEWOOD — Jun 17, 2010I thought the red states love states' rights and just want the fed gov out of their way...until they need something.  

the federal government has some very clearly defined responsibilities. bailing out GM is not one of them; however dealing with this catastrophe is. if the federal government shouldn't lend aid in a time like this, why have it?

the federal government has some very clearly defined responsibilities. bailing out GM is not one of them; however dealing with this catastrophe is. if the federal government shouldn't lend aid in a time like this, why have it?

What responsibilities do corporations have, chase, besides the responsibility to make money for their stockholders?  

If a corporation fucks up and destroys something, are they responsible?  

I hear a lot of blame for the Obama administration.  The reality is the government is up against an unbeatable foe.  Our government is not designed to protect every inch of a full third of our nation's coastline from a mile deep underwater unstoppable oil spill.  It's just not what we are built for.  The fact that we cannot mobilize to cover that broad a reach shouldn't surprise anyone.  It's an impossible task.  We will be finding and scooping up tarballs for the next 20 years.  

chase — Jun 17, 2010[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1276206725/25#46 date=1276802257]I thought the red states love states' rights and just want the fed gov out of their way...until they need something.  

the federal government has some very clearly defined responsibilities. bailing out GM is not one of them; however dealing with this catastrophe is. if the federal government shouldn't lend aid in a time like this, why have it?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!  You tell me.