The Watering Hole

Well, I've been back and forth on this issue and have finally decided to support it, or at least be in favor of it.

After listening to both sides for, it seems like years, I think we need this to pass if we ever expect to curb the insurance companies rise in rates and dropping people for whatever reasons. And it will probably be decades before this ever hits the table again if it's not passed.

I've heard that  argument that only 30 million people are without insurance and that is a very small percentage. Well, who gives a shit about the percentage? 30 million people without insurance that could be insured by this passing? That's a fucking shit load of people.

I'm for it, I say get it done and move the fuck on. Obama has been patient long enough. I commend him for that. And, I agree with him, we need to vote and pass this thing. Or they do.

What say you?

put it to a national vote in november. until that time refine the bill as necessary

We already put it to a national vote, two Novembers ago.  I am inclined to agree.  I don't think this bill is anywhere near comprehensive, mostly because of all the shit that's been added and dropped to try to get Republican support, which was as useless a move that's ever been made.  But we can't afford to do nothing.  If Obama was thinking like a politician, he would have not even taken up healthcare until after the midterm elections.  But frankly I'm a little tired of everybody always worrying about re-election and nobody worrying about people.  THe bottom line is getting more people insured will make it possible for people who are actually sick to get and use insurance, and that will save the entire society money and emotional anguish in the long term.

I'm convinced the good out weigh the bad. Whatever passes isn't the end of this. It can be improved on as we learn what works and what doesn't work....etc. It's a start and a step in the right direction. MLK didn't end racism, but he moved us huge steps in the right direction.

take the next 6 months to hammer out the details, ACTUALLY READ THE FUCKING BILL, and eliminate the waste. take the last 2 months and educate as many people who will unfuck themselves as possible about the pro's and con's of the specific bill, and than put it on the ballot in november.



what will actually happen will be a form of reconciliation that will tear the country even further apart when it passes with 0 republicans onboard. the resulting fallout will eliminate the democratic majority in both the house, senate, and whitehouse. the pendulum will swing to the right and we will start over again a la' 2000.

or it could not pass and obama will be a dead duck in the office.

You can't put it on the ballot in November.  There are no national issue ballots.  The only thing waiting until November will do is get a few more Republicans in office.  Who cares?  They only need 41 senators to shit in the sandbox, and they already have that, and they're doing a damn fine job of spreading the e coli around.  Unless you think they're going to end up with 51 in November, there's no point in waiting.  

I think we need something.  Healthcare costs are already through the roof.  Anything that regulates is going to get 0 Republican support... hell, these are the people that brought us deregulation in financial services (and are still refusing to support any regulation for the shitstorm that harpooned millions of our citizens and several countries), they wouldn't even vote for fucking credit card reform, which was a regulatory slam-dunk if I've ever seen one, if you asked them to vote whether the sky was blue, they'd check how many democrats were voting for blue before they even considered casting a vote.

The Republicans in Congress are a waste of time right now.  Nothing short of getting exactly what they want is going to work for them, and since the Senate, House, and Executive branch are Dem, they're not going to get that.

For a while, I liked the idea of Obama coming in and forging some sort of cooperation.  Boy, was I drinking the kool-aid.  I actually though that Republicans would cooperate and care about bipartisanism and feel the love, man.  Instead they went hard right and decided that after their massive losses in '08, they were actually in charge anyway.  

Now I think it's time for Obama and the Democrats to lead, and fuck the Republicans if they don't want to hop on.  There are worse things in the world then losing office in the midterm elections... like letting the whole country down and doing absolutely nothing to alleviate skyrocketing medical costs and insurance rates.

What exactly do you think is going to happen if they read the bill for 6 months, chase?  A lot of their shit is in there.  Everyone in Congress knows what's in the bill.  At least, they know what's in the bill that they don't like.  They've known it for a year.  Time does nothing but wait on the election.  It's pointless.  What would be the point of Obama's victory if he was just going to sit and wait for the Republicans to give him some support?  They haven't, they aren't going to, and they won't ever.  Seriously, fuck them.  I've never seen less independent thinking from a Congress, and I'm afraid all those people who think they will toss out the incumbents and thus right the wrongs of the world are ass-backwards... as they will learn when even more obstruction comes to Washington next year.

the whole situation is sad. a sub standard bill is going to be passed that will cover some people but not all, put us even further into debt, and create even more government bureaucracy.

No....this isn't about expanding government, it's about expanding a hand to people who don't have the means to afford healthcare. If it cost your gun packing ass a few extra dollars a year, then so be it. After all, we have the "right" to pass a healthcare bill. :P

And like I said before, we can improve on it as we go.

What we really need is a new way of thinking.  No bill is going to create that.  The fact is, insurance companies aren't the problem... or not the whole problem.  What they are is the most glaring symptom.  What really needs to be regulated is exactly what will not ever get regulated: doctors, hospitals, and pharma.  

A doctor should set reasonable limits, and say, yes, even though there's a .1% chance you have something really rare, we don't need to run three $2000 tests for it.  Instead we need to to run tests when they make sense, do procedures when they make sense.  But what's the profit margin in that?  Most doctors are not paid for their time, they are paid on volume, the number of people they see, the number of tests they run, the number of procedures they do.  This American Life referred to a study where researchers found that just by virtue of living one town over from another, women were more than ten times more likely to get a hysterectomy.  That's insane.  One doctor put it this way: "if there is one gynecologist in town, no one will get unnecessary procedures.  If there are ten, many women will."

Likewise, hospitals.  Sure, a doctor should make a good living.  But hospitals overcharge small insurers because they can, they negotiate separate rates for the big pools of clients and much higher rates for the small clients.  It's certainly capitalism in action, but it's not fair.  It's just not fair to screw people because they have less power, less choice.  Woe to the small business or medium business that tries to get insurance for its employees.  Their rates will be higher, even if their risk is exactly the same.

And pharma... pharma is fucking us, in every possible way.  When insurers raise deductibles on name brand drugs, and give you a low deductible on an identical generic, pharma steps in and gives you a credit that covers the difference in deductible, so you still pay the $20 for your drugs, instead of $90, but your insurer then pays $2000 for the name brand instead of $50 for the generic.  It's unconscionable. The drug company eats $70 but makes $1930.  

The insurers run at 3-4% profits.  They are not making a killing.  But... everyone hates insurance, because they are the ones left to make the hard decisions when no one else will, when the rules of the game are slanted so heavily towards big pharma and the big medical lobbies.

Don't think I don't know this bill is flawed.  I do.  It is.  But the bill I want will NEVER pass with the influence that pharma and the medical lobbies have.  So we have to start somewhere, show them that we are serious, that we are coming to regulate their industry, because no matter how much they argue that their freedom gives us more choice, what it mainly gives us is more cost.  Our care is not any better than any number of countries on the globe, and our people are not any healthier than those in most developed countries, but it is far more expensive.  

Someone has to step in front of the train.  If it's the Democrats, and they lose the Congress over it, I would consider that a worthwhile sacrifice.  I couldn't care less if Obama ends up with a Republican congress, and we get some sort of healthcare reform started. Later, maybe we can tackle pharma and physicians, but we have to start somewhere, or we will be absolutely crippled by rising costs.  

Remember Charger, the pharma companies also do or participate in research for new and better drugs. The U.S. probably does as much research as anyone. That has to be paid for.

You can argue back and forth with anyone on all your above valid points forever, but the bottom line is the uninsured are costing everyone plenty of money. The moment everyone gets insured and has health care, hopefully within the next 5 or 10 years, the cost issue should be addressed. The excuses will be gone. However, I'd bet everything I have that very little will change as far as cost.

If my cost doesn't change much, but almost everyone has insurance, I will call that a win.  If my cost doesn't change much, but doesn't keep going up at the rate it is, I will call that a win.

Anything else will mean there is more to be done.

I agree!!

Hookbender — Mar 11, 2010 After all, we have the "right" to pass a healthcare bill. :P

cool, put it up to vote than. reconciliation doesn't count

chase — Mar 16, 2010[quote author=Hookbender link=1268176321/0#7 date=1268351207] After all, we have the "right" to pass a healthcare bill. :P

cool, put it up to vote than. reconciliation doesn't count


Yes it does. Especially in today's political enviroment.

are you familiar with the intent of reconciliation? go read about what it was intended to be used for, and than come back here and tell me the way it is being used is in line with that. the bottom line is this bill is not supported by the majority of americans, would not pass a straight up vote, but will be pushed through anyway by questionable means.

i cannot wait for november to roll around

Are you familiar with Fox news? Sure you are. They are the most watched news channel. They've been slamming this bill since the beginning and speculating about what this bill will do. People digest what they here on the T.V., channels like Fox news. They have no clue what's in this bill, they just think it's bad because Fox says so.

I don't love this bill either. I know for a fact, that something has to be done about healthcare. So do all the people who oppose this bill. They just don't like what's in it....problem is, they don't know what's in it or it's intent. They just hear Fox slam it and jump on the wagon.

Whatever this bill ends up being will be a start to fixing healthcare. A start for 30 plus million people to receive proper medical treatment and prevention treatment. Now maybe not all these people will get healthcare, but a good number will and this bill can be improved on as we go. It's not a black and white issue, the bill is not unchangeable. It's a start.

Now, you can sit there and bitch and moan all you want, or, you can be just slightly optimistic about it's future.

The last 3 or so Presidents have tried to do something about healthcare and failed. We have a problem and it needs fixing. It won't be fixed by this bill, but the fixing will start, hopefully.

Maybe your just upset at who will get credit for starting to do something about healthcare.

Hookbender — Mar 17, 2010Are you familiar with Fox news? Sure you are. They are the most watched news channel. They've been slamming this bill since the beginning and speculating about what this bill will do. People digest what they here on the T.V., channels like Fox news. They have no clue what's in this bill, they just think it's bad because Fox says so.

I don't love this bill either. I know for a fact, that something has to be done about healthcare. So do all the people who oppose this bill. They just don't like what's in it....problem is, they don't know what's in it or it's intent. They just hear Fox slam it and jump on the wagon.

Whatever this bill ends up being will be a start to fixing healthcare. A start for 30 plus million people to receive proper medical treatment and prevention treatment. Now maybe not all these people will get healthcare, but a good number will and this bill can be improved on as we go. It's not a black and white issue, the bill is not unchangeable. It's a start.

Now, you can sit there and bitch and moan all you want, or, you can be just slightly optimistic about it's future.

The last 3 or so Presidents have tried to do something about healthcare and failed. We have a problem and it needs fixing. It won't be fixed by this bill, but the fixing will start, hopefully.

Maybe your just upset at who will get credit for starting to do something about healthcare.

where did the fox news blurb come from? i watch nbc more than fox. as far as taking credit goes, i'm thinking you are off base here. i WANT obama to take credit for this abortion. in november the democrats will pay heavily for it. 2012 will bring a republican in the oval office assuming they can front a candidate who isn't a complete toolbag. (don't have much faith in that sadly) i'm not the type of person who wants this to pass and fail to remove obama. i would rather him not pass it and take his chances in the elections than pass it and guarantee a swift kick out.

on to another point, you just admitted you haven't read any of the bill, but you support it? thats lunacy. i see you don't care to dispute the "nuclear option" either? i think its despicable. i'm not ignorant, i know republican majorities have used it in the past. its violating the spirit of the law. doesn't matter who uses it, it shouldn't exist

read up...
http://budget.house.gov/doc-library/FY2010/03.15.2010_reconciliation2010.PDF

I didn't say I haven't read the bill. Read my post.

Got coverage?

no, i don't

lets take it to a very basic level. article 1 section 7 of the constitution lays out what must happen in order to have a bill become a law. it must pass both the house and senate.
this healthcare bill has not done so. what democrats are trying to do is make slight amendments to the one voted on christmas eve. they will than vote on the amendments only, not the whole bill. by some crazy thought process they will deem the vote to have included the original bill as well. neither the original bill nor the corrections will have passed both the house and the senate.

regardless of how you feel about healthcare reform, the simple fact is this bill is so fucked up it cannot pass. THE MAJORITY OF US CITIZENS DO NOT WANT THIS TO PASS. IF IT WERE TO GO FOR A VOTE IT WOULD BE DESTROYED. i cannot swallow that there is a ruling class in washington that knows what is best for us and will disregard our will by slamming this major reform bill down. it is infuriating that the elected officials are disregarding the electorate that put them in power for one reason alone, which is to represent their views and opinions and act on their behalf. what has evolved is definetly not the republic that was intended, and isn't even a democracy either.

healthcare reform isn't even the largest issue at stake here anymore. it is the blatant disregard for the constitution which frightens and alarms me. last time i checked that document still laid the rules for what i thought was OUR government. regardless of how you feel about healthcare, the ends do not justify the means.

Have you ever paid into our current system at all?

Why don't you have healthcare Chase?

And by the way, you sound exactly like a news guy from fox.

Wait, I thought you were in the military. How can you not have coverage in the military?

What soldiers get healthcare paid by the government !!!!

What a bunch of commies.



It brings a tear to the eye for the state of the republic and the assumption of right wing lunacy it stands for.

Hookbender — Mar 18, 2010Why don't you have healthcare Chase?

And by the way, you sound exactly like a news guy from fox.

Wait, I thought you were in the military. How can you not have coverage in the military?

i just signed my contract and swore in. coverage doesn't start for me until i ship out in october

fingers — Mar 18, 2010What soldiers get healthcare paid by the government !!!!

What a bunch of commies.



It brings a tear to the eye for the state of the republic and the assumption of right wing lunacy it stands for.

tricare is similar to an HMO. it is not "free healthcare"

BINGEWOOD — Mar 18, 2010Have you ever paid into our current system at all?

yes. medicare and medicaid have been deducted from my paychecks for the last decade or so

Hookbender — Mar 18, 2010
you sound exactly like a news guy from fox.

who cares what i sound like. maybe fox news has it right, i don't know as i don't listen to them much. what i do know is i swore an oath to uphold the constitution. right now i am trying to do everything i can to ensure that this bill is passed via the process set up in the constitution. right now IT IS NOT HAPPENING. so you will have to excuse me if i seem a little upset over this. i would honestly even have thought that the liberal people would still respect the constitution. guess i was wrong on that

chase — Mar 18, 2010[quote author=fingers link=1268176321/0#24 date=1268919034]What soldiers get healthcare paid by the government !!!!

What a bunch of commies.



It brings a tear to the eye for the state of the republic and the assumption of right wing lunacy it stands for.

tricare is similar to an HMO. it is not "free healthcare"


The army paid for by government,
It's commie.

Privatise it - market forces will make it better and more efficient

fingers — Mar 18, 2010[quote author=chase link=1268176321/25#26 date=1268923671][quote author=fingers link=1268176321/0#24 date=1268919034]What soldiers get healthcare paid by the government !!!!

What a bunch of commies.



It brings a tear to the eye for the state of the republic and the assumption of right wing lunacy it stands for.

tricare is similar to an HMO. it is not "free healthcare"


The army paid for by government,
It's commie.

Privatise it - market forces will make it better and more efficient

won't happen. when was the last time government rolled back control of something to the private market?

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view.bg?articleid=1240545

even the democrats are calling it what it is now, this is despicable. no republicans will vote for it, and democrats are now being bribed.
our government is literally being destroyed before our eyes.

What do you think the pros and cons of the bill are?

chase — Mar 16, 2010are you familiar with the intent of reconciliation? go read about what it was intended to be used for, and than come back here and tell me the way it is being used is in line with that.

Are you familiar with the intent of the fillibuster? Go read about what it was intended to be used for, and than come back here and tell me the way it is being used is in line with that.

Touché.

chase — Mar 18, 2010lets take it to a very basic level. article 1 section 7 of the constitution lays out what must happen in order to have a bill become a law. it must pass both the house and senate.

Bullshit, chase. Bills passed both the house and senate.  Granted, they were different bills, but that is always the case.

Find me the fillibuster in the Constitution, and then you will have some ground to argue on.  You are now using the fact that Republicans won't even ALLOW a vote to bolster your "fact" that this can not pass?  Hell, it would pass if Republicans allowed a vote.  That they WON'T is what you should be angry about.

chase — Mar 18, 2010[quote author=Hookbender link=1268176321/0#23 date=1268916175]
you sound exactly like a news guy from fox.

who cares what i sound like. maybe fox news has it right, i don't know as i don't listen to them much. what i do know is i swore an oath to uphold the constitution. right now i am trying to do everything i can to ensure that this bill is passed via the process set up in the constitution. right now IT IS NOT HAPPENING. so you will have to excuse me if i seem a little upset over this. i would honestly even have thought that the liberal people would still respect the constitution. guess i was wrong on that
Like I have said already, bullshit again.  You KNOW that there is no fillibuster in the constitution.  You don't seem to have problem with the Republicans using it.  So get off your high horse already.  Your arguments about constitutionality are going to fall on deaf ears because:

a) you know the bill would pass without the fillibuster, and
b) the fillibuster isn't in the Constitution, therefore:
c) you look like the right-wing shill you are when you claim that it is the Democrats, who actually passed versions of this bill through both houses, who are violating the Constitution.

Make a coherent argument already.  This one isn't worthy of Sarah Palin.

As far as the majority of people supporting or not supporting it?  Since when does that matter?  If that mattered at all, George W. Bush would never have been president. Also, I think you have a distorted view of the numbers.  Look at poll numbers:
http://www.pollingreport.com/health.htm
You tell me there is a clear consensus either way. Sure, you or I could pick one or two polls, but the overall trend is undecided.  

• Sure, there's the poll where 57% of people disapprove of Obama's handling of healthcare, but what does that mean?  Does that mean they don't want healthcare to pass?  I disapprove of his handling of it, I think he should have presented a bill in the first place instead of letting the house and senate craft it.  That was a near-fatal error IMO.  I also disapprove of him dropping the public option.  So yeah, I fall into that 57%.  But I want it to pass.
  
• The next poll down, 59% of people disapprove of the way Republicans in Congress are handling healthcare. Go figure.
  
• Again, next poll.  37% think Dems would do a better job with healthcare, compared to 28% for Republicans.  Huh.
  
• Next poll. 48% think Obama's plan is a bad idea, compared to 36% who think it's a good idea.  Wow, that's interesting, considering:
  
• 46% think we should make changes, 45% think we should keep the current system, according to the next poll.  
  

If you can read those tea leaves, chase, you are a better man than I.

My feeling is, once it passes, opinion will flow to the positive.  Yes, Dems will lose seats in November, but that happens under every administration.  Will Obama lose in 2012?  It's a little early to make that call, don't you think?  

BINGEWOOD — Mar 18, 2010What do you think the pros and cons of the bill are?

I'll answer for him:
Pros: Will get Democrats out of office. Will end Obama's presidency. Will bring about violent revolution. Will end government as we know it. Will get to use my guns on liberals.
Cons: People who don't want healthcare will get healthcare. Very loud, vocal minority will not get its way. Obamacare--it just sounds like an evil plot, doesn't it?

chase — Mar 18, 2010[quote author=fingers link=1268176321/25#29 date=1268925885][quote author=chase link=1268176321/25#26 date=1268923671][quote author=fingers link=1268176321/0#24 date=1268919034]What soldiers get healthcare paid by the government !!!!

What a bunch of commies.



It brings a tear to the eye for the state of the republic and the assumption of right wing lunacy it stands for.

tricare is similar to an HMO. it is not "free healthcare"


The army paid for by government,
It's commie.

Privatise it - market forces will make it better and more efficient

won't happen. when was the last time government rolled back control of something to the private market?


should it happen?
A military system based on a pure free market would be interesting prospect.
The SAS being the most elite of forces worldwide could make a shit load of money
billions considering the kind off shit they could pull off without political restraint.

The US could simply buy them - fuck persuading the uk gov to loan them

But so could Osama bin Ladin or Iran
There would be a huge bidding war.

It would be a fertile subject for a what if novel/drama

A chance to see US elite  forces up against the SAS

lion vs tiger fight :)

it is the way war used to be fought in antiquity - highest bidder wins.
Roman legions had  little alliegance to the state but to the themselves and the oligarch who
was funding them.
It was more complex than that but miltary was essentially a privatized affair though sharing miliitary culture - much like corporate culture.

But they hired foreign auxilaries skilled in other areas - like archers,cavarly and naval
Romans excelled in infantry.
It leant  huge intregue to going to war.

More like modern professional football. Real Madrid buying a star player from a rival like Manchester united is as much about weakening the opposition as gaining strength.

Modern state sponsored monopolies over miltary is socialist in the extreme
it is the singularly the  most communist  power the modern state has.
The right to order conscription overriding  your individual rights  is Stalinist.

You may dismiss this as a red herring but that would be down to naivity and the brainwashing that comes from not questioning the fundamentals of your beliefs. Where do your beliefs come from.

You advocate freedom superficially while being a good little servant of the states bidding.
The so called "socialists"  like charger are nothing of the sort - they are more hostile to the misuse of state power than you are.

You just can't see it

the extreme wings of politics are both collectivist and oppressive.
They are fundamentalist, based on flawed idealized absolute theories of human behaviour.

The state is over powerfull

but rhe idea that a national health insurance system proposal represents a bigger menace to personal freedom than the power  to declare a war and conscript and tax your ass into it is laughable.

You shouldn't be joining the government  army with your views.
You should be in a militia funded by an oligarch who made his huge fortune out of the 18% of GDP
spent on health care insurance in the US.

Fuck the  government it is socialist - give your alliegance to an oligarch





   


 

 

chase — Mar 18, 2010[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1268176321/0#22 date=1268893594]Have you ever paid into our current system at all?

yes. medicare and medicaid have been deducted from my paychecks for the last decade or so


I meant the private insurance system.  If you have never paid in I can see where you wouldn't care about this issue.  Your rates haven't ballooned.  You haven't been dropped when you're sick after paying in for your whole life.  You haven't left a job and had your pay in now mean nothing. You haven't tried to find insurance for your family when your child is born with a preexisting condition...

chase — Mar 18, 2010[quote author=Hookbender link=1268176321/0#23 date=1268916175]
you sound exactly like a news guy from fox.

who cares what i sound like. maybe fox news has it right, i don't know as i don't listen to them much. what i do know is i swore an oath to uphold the constitution. right now i am trying to do everything i can to ensure that this bill is passed via the process set up in the constitution. right now IT IS NOT HAPPENING. so you will have to excuse me if i seem a little upset over this. i would honestly even have thought that the liberal people would still respect the constitution. guess i was wrong on that

He didn't say that you sound like a foxcaster, he said you sound EXACTLY like one.  You are reading from the same insurance corporation script, but you and fox aren't alone-lotza parrots out there!

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

seems pretty clear to me

Heh heh Rasmussen, Fox's lil justifier.

Yes very clear
politics
Obama must equal fail is the priority
he hasn't actually done anything the easy yet

declaring war in Iraq was easy

Wow, alot of speculation among the people. They think healthcare will get worse for the same reason they think Jesus will return. They just believe it will. ;D

kinda like how some people in this thread know the bill is flawed in its current state, but want to pass it anyway "believing" it will be improved upon and corrected as time goes on

Pros and cons?

chase — Mar 19, 2010kinda like how some people in this thread know the bill is flawed in its current state, but want to pass it anyway "believing" it will be improved upon and corrected as time goes on

It can be improved on. That's not a belief, its a fact. Knowing the bill has flaws but convienced it's better than we have now, or, the good outweigh the bad.......is a logical position in my opinion. It's that way with every bill. Being agaist it because fox tells you to and the desire to side with the majoriety, for now, kinda poor decision making, in my humble opinion.

Why don't you answer Binge's question? What, in your opinion, are the pros and cons of this bill?

BINGEWOOD — Mar 19, 2010Pros and cons?

i've avoided this question becuase i'm a cold hearted bastard. most of the items included in the bill sound like good things. however it's my belief that the government should have nothing to do with REQUIRING healthcare for its citizens. i cannot support the government growing and taking over about 1/6 of our economy.

i would also like the government to just cut me a check every month and let me quit working. similarly i don't believe its the role of the government to do so