86 posts
and on another topic, shut the hell up about the fox bit. i don't watch it. if i agree with them than so be it. i don't ramble on about how you are spewing the liberal news source talking points over and over again.
it's possible i have formed my own opinions
chase — Mar 18, 2010http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform
seems pretty clear to me
Really? Seems pretty clear to me that there is zero support from the right wing, and they are just more vocal. Liberals and moderates support it. That's who counts. Obama never got a vote from a right-wing conservative, and never will. Their entire goal since day one has been to obstruct and destroy him. So, from a political perspective, they should not even figure into his thinking.
Anyway, polls are just polls. Opinion is swayed by more than just talking points. Once healthcare passes, in a few weeks, it will be the next thing everyone is bitching about.
Conservatives also didn't back credit card reform. But they didn't organize a fucking tea party, because it wasn't something that they thought people would get behind. And they were right. The truth is, 90% of people are happy with their healthcare. Because 90% of people with healthcare don't get sick. Those 10% that get seriously ill? Poll them. Poll the people without insurance.
Sometimes you have to do things that help the minority. Women's suffrage. Abolition. What do you think the poll numbers were like on slavery? On the south's secession? If we'd never pushed slavery away, it would never have become a non-issue. I'm sure days before the emancipation proclamation, Lincoln was running massive negative numbers all over the South. Now you can't find a politician in the country who doesn't hail him as possibly our greatest president ever.
Sometimes politicians have to make hard decisions. Decisions that will cost them their jobs. That is fine with me. I am bored with politicians getting into office, shaking hands, doing nothing, and coasting. It hasn't helped this country that that has become the status quo.
chase — Mar 19, 2010and on another topic, shut the hell up about the fox bit. i don't watch it. if i agree with them than so be it. i don't ramble on about how you are spewing the liberal news source talking points over and over again.
it's possible i have formed my own opinions
Shut the hell up? How about fuck you and fuck no.
I don't ramble on liberal points, and I'm not a democrat liberal. I just have a liberal position on this particular subject. If you had been around here longer you'd know I was a republican nut in the past. I've changed a bit over time. I don't subscribe to either party.
Watch fox news when you get a chance. You'll see what I mean.
"Conservatives also didn't back credit card reform. But they didn't organize a fucking tea party, because it wasn't something that they thought people would get behind. And they were right. The truth is, 90% of people are happy with their healthcare. Because 90% of people with healthcare don't get sick. Those 10% that get seriously ill? Poll them. Poll the people without insurance."
Excellent point Charger. Why the hell should people with insurance want change? Poll the people without insurance.....excellent idea. Ask the people it will effect. Ask the people who don't have and can't obtain insurance.
And, your right again. The minoriety has the right to have a voice and to be heard. We have to stop eating out one night a week and they get the opportunity to get medical treatment for a change. Boy, that's a hard decision, isn't it?
brilliant. lets poll people who are broke and ask if we should make unemployment benefits permanent. they only represent about 10% of the nation if you believe the stats
Democrats continue to overwhelmingly support the plan, while Republicans and voters not affiliated with either party strongly oppose it.
seems to be like the democrats are rallying behind party lines while the rest of the nation disagrees
chase — Mar 20, 2010
Democrats continue to overwhelmingly support the plan, while Republicans and voters not affiliated with either party strongly oppose it.
seems to be like the democrats are rallying behind party lines while the rest of the nation disagrees
Actually, I misquoted what the image shows. Democrats support it strongly, Republicans even more strongly are against it, and moderates are almost exactly in the middle. You can see that, right? So, tell me what you see in that polling chart that I am not seeing.
chase — Mar 20, 2010
Democrats continue to overwhelmingly support the plan, while Republicans and voters not affiliated with either party strongly oppose it.
seems to be like the democrats are rallying behind party lines while the rest of the nation disagree
seems to be like the democrats and republicans are rallying behind party lines while the rest of the nation disagrees with each other but most probably think that "most of the items included in the bill sound like good things"
The "rest of the nation" polls, I'm guessing these are the "Independents", might be a lil skewed as well because many Republicans won't admit they are indeed Republicans anymore ie only vote Republican.
As fer Rasmussen, Nate silver has a better record as far as I've seen. Take a bunch of polls and weigh them.
chase — Mar 19, 2010[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1268176321/25#46 date=1268964614]Pros and cons?
i've avoided this question becuase i'm a cold hearted bastard.
Only where it comes to strangers I'm hoping.
most of the items included in the bill sound like good things.
Whoaa, no way!
however it's my belief that the government should have nothing to do with REQUIRING healthcare for its citizens.
Who developed this plan originally? The employer mandate was Nixon's plan. As for the individual mandate:
In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time.
re:Fox I used to watch the three cable news channels. They were good for different things. Fox excels at CIA/mil leaks. They get them first every time. They are also good at showing you the dopiest of the main stream right wing as MSNBC can show the dopiest of the main stream leftys but honestly their form of dopey is pretty much just corny not repetitious half truths . Fox was a reaction to CNN. MSNBC was a reaction to Fox. Now, sadly, CNN is a reaction to both. I find it the hardest to watch now. Fox is the land of smug bullies and female lawyers who are all extremely angry about being born with dark hair. MSNBC is the land of sensitive men and a manly chick. It all starts really really dumb and doesn't get much better across the board for the entire day. heh heh I shouldn't say that, there are smart people. Some are so smart they're almost evil. I could lay out the formula for each of the shows in all of their whole daily lineups but why bother.
I watched them all because you get different info and different politicos' statements/bullshit but often more important is what each one doesn't say. Fox leads at that too. FUCK ALL PUNDITS Any amount paid to them is too much for the most part.
News has gone from mostly information to a source of opinion for the empty for much of the day during the time when people get home from work especially. I still watch the daily show and colbert usually but I try to watch a lot less propatainment. BBC America and PBS news are probably the closest to news but most of the time not as fun, right? Surely more fun then a paper tho...
On a side note, I generally work from home but I was in DC all week doing IT work. Interesting place. I've gone out twice in the last 5 years but I never get a chance get around and see the place properly.
I usually just watch Fox.
I travel every week for work. I usually turn on Fox to see what the news is, then if something interest me, i find out what's really going on, the truth, on the net. The big 3 are just entertainment shows.
I've got satellite radio in my car and listen to npr a lot. They usually have some pretty good info and are definitely not an entertainment based program, imo. They have a lot of different stuff on their that's pretty informative.
I wish msmbc would get serious about news and quit getting in the mud against fox. Like, get rid of both their host, keith and maddow. Their repulsive, both of them. I would let Maddow do the investigating to find out truths of the matter and hire another gay person whos respectable to air the shit. ;D
chase — Mar 20, 2010brilliant. lets poll people who are broke and ask if we should make unemployment benefits permanent. they only represent about 10% of the nation if you believe the stats
You have a really good sense of missing points. I'm impressed.
charger — Mar 20, 2010[quote author=chase link=1268176321/50#56 date=1269063683]
Democrats continue to overwhelmingly support the plan, while Republicans and voters not affiliated with either party strongly oppose it.
seems to be like the democrats are rallying behind party lines while the rest of the nation disagrees
Actually, I misquoted what the image shows. Democrats support it strongly, Republicans even more strongly are against it, and moderates are almost exactly in the middle. You can see that, right? So, tell me what you see in that polling chart that I am not seeing.
i think this issue perfectly illustrates the polarization that has split our nation in 2. i think most major legislation in the foreseeable future will have a similar breakdown of votes.
it's unfortunate because when a good idea comes along it will be next to impossible to pass. i don't believe this is a good idea, but to each his own.
50/50 is pretty common.
I thought you said these are good ideas.
Hookbender — Mar 20, 2010I usually just watch Fox.
I travel every week for work. I usually turn on Fox to see what the news is, then if something interest me, i find out what's really going on, the truth, on the net. The big 3 are just entertainment shows.
I've got satellite radio in my car and listen to npr a lot. They usually have some pretty good info and are definitely not an entertainment based program, imo. They have a lot of different stuff on their that's pretty informative.
I wish msmbc would get serious about news and quit getting in the mud against fox. Like, get rid of both their host, keith and maddow. Their repulsive, both of them. I would let Maddow do the investigating to find out truths of the matter and hire another gay person whos respectable to air the shit. ;D
What shows do you watch on Fox? There's really only one honest show on the network...it's called Redeye. Shep Smith occasionally calls bullshit but he's a good company man too.
A little of all. The evening shows are really good to drink a beer too. ;D Glen beck is a trip, pretty good actor. I'd really like to pull a drunk with with him. To bad he can't handle his job or drinking. ;D Shep is o.k. It really doesn't matter which show you watch if you are only looking for the headlines. The net is much better for good sources and facts.
BINGEWOOD — Mar 20, 201050/50 is pretty common.
I thought you said these are good ideas.
i think what the bill WILL do is bad. what it is intended to do, while noble SHOULDN'T be done based on my political views of what role the government should take in a citizens life; regardless of what feel good things might be accomplished
So it is simply dogma not a thought out position
not even necessary to read the thing to be opposed
the government shouldn't be involved in a citizens life.
And you love the army where the state is "mammy"
I dont care whether this bill passes or not but your "political" position
is much like the typical religious nut.
inconsistent, contradictory and full of holes.
I predict that you will find it increasingly difficult to hold such
views as you get older and wiser.
The implications of your position now is fit facts into dogma
if facts don't fit dogma trumps facts
a bad bill beats a good bill if it subscribes to the dogma
it is screwy - you'll be preaching the Lordy next and how he is
the foundation of the dogma.
chase — Mar 21, 2010[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1268176321/50#64 date=1269119486]50/50 is pretty common.
I thought you said these are good ideas.
i think what the bill WILL do is bad. what it is intended to do, while noble SHOULDN'T be done based on my political views of what role the government should take in a citizens life; regardless of what feel good things might be accomplished
So you have no true position. Your just arguing for the sake of arguing. Either that, or Fingers is spot on in his post above.
i give up.
healthcare is a right.
all hail obama our glorious leader for bringing us this blessing.
I liked the healthcare = feel good part.
People should be able to shoot and kill at will because the majority think so and they have the right to do so, and if you don't have access to medical care, that's your problem. ;D And...the health care bill is all bad but there are good things in it. ;D
All lagit points as far as I can tell. ;D
my last point in this thread. i'm tired of arguing against a brick wall. we all know eachothers viewpoint, even if we don't agree.
the continuing theme in my political beliefs is that the government should stay as far out of the way as possible. every political thread i participate in can be approached from that point of view for me. my argument in this thread mirrors that sentiment.
it's a moot point now anyways, as it looks like the senate bill is going to pass one way or another.
He's just tired of the Government making the people rely on it. There's nothing wrong with the Government helping people who need it due to no fault of their own, but they've managed to make most of an entire generation expect handouts. What's always ignored is who really is paying for it - those who are NOT taking the handouts.
I love how the Government expands then says that they've created more jobs, yet that only makes the problems worse since those people are not creating any wealth for America, they're robbing it (100% of their salaries come from taxes yet they only return about 28% or so).
The Government should stick with basic functions: Defense, Judicial (including policing) and infrastructure. Social programs should exist as temporary assistance programs not life-long hand-out programs.
It took longer than she expected, but things are really starting to look just like Ayn Rand illustrated in Atlas Shrugged.
I'd say parents make people expect handouts.
Who are the people that believe they can rely on government?
Military personnel perhaps :)
Has the sky fallen in - I expect the next
earthquake/hurricane etc. in the US will be blamed on the ungodliness
of this bill in providing healthcare to the needy.
Jesus would be angry it goes against all his teachings.
Jesus is an illegal alien living in Hollywood, but he has a car and health insurance... ;)
Those cats don't have auto insurance. heh heh
Are these the people you're talking about?
Didn't say he had auto insurance (he doesn't need it - those with insurance have to pay extra to cover him). I said he had a car. :)
The problem is, Craig, when we let industries regulate themselves, we get Crises that end up with capital letters in their names. The Mortgage Crisis. The Healthcare Crisis.
Would you propose that we continue to let the healthcare system work as it has been? Or the financial system?
It's clear that, when given the option, people will screw their neighbors out of as much as they possibly can. It's just not clear to me that this is a good thing, or that it has given good results and outcomes to any but a very small percentage of people in our country.
I diggit, but are these the people you're talking about?
Hey Bingewood, you need to upload your avatar... I can't see it... followed the URL and got a "content blocked" from AT&T...
