53 posts
So, Obama killed it.
And then McCain chose a woman to run as his VP. Which, I believe, shows desperation, though you can call it whatever you want to.
charger — Aug 29, 2008So, Obama killed it.
And then McCain chose a woman to run as his VP. Which, I believe, shows desperation, though you can call it whatever you want to.
A woman with less experience than Obama had 4 years ago...nice.
McCain's the master of good decisions!
Tripper
I just think you both have a problem with a women being in power. See, works both ways, doesn't it.
I think this pick is a pretty good mark of McCain's judgment. Here's what I see:
a) He's an opportunist. He picked a woman, I believe, solely to steal disgruntled Hillary voters and to look like a "maverick." Is that a presidential decision?
b) After spending the entire campaign telling us how unqualified Barack Obama is to be President (who has served in Illinois state office and in the US Senate), he picked a woman from the smallest state in the nation, with less than 2 years of statewide office experience, as a person he believes can potentially run the country, if he dies or is hurt. Is that a presidential decision? Even more, is that a decision that falls in line with his own rhetoric?
c) He passed over several very good candidates, including Tom Ridge, a decorated veteran who's been in the cabinet, and is actually pro-choice, and Kay Bailey Hutchison, a much more experienced woman candidate. Does that show presidential judgement?
I have to say, after seeing the VP picks, I think one aced it, and one was very questionable, so far.
I love how both sides take things like this. I heard a few from the other side of the aisle crowing about how McCain stole the show from the Democrats by picking a women that even the Democrats say is more experienced than Obama....
Oh well. In any case, it looks like there will be a historic first: A "black" man or a woman as one of the top two positions. I personally couldn't care less. Can they do the job? Then put them in. Unfortunately I don't see anyone that falls into that category...
CraigBert — Aug 29, 2008I love how both sides take things like this. I heard a few from the other side of the aisle crowing about how McCain stole the show from the Democrats by picking a women that even the Democrats say is more experienced than Obama....
Oh well. In any case, it looks like there will be a historic first: A "black" man or a woman as one of the top two positions. I personally couldn't care less. Can they do the job? Then put them in. Unfortunately I don't see anyone that falls into that category...
I don't think anyone is saying she is more experienced than Obama. That would not be true.
charger — Aug 29, 2008I think this pick is a pretty good mark of McCain's judgment. Here's what I see:
a) He's an opportunist. He picked a woman, I believe, solely to steal disgruntled Hillary voters and to look like a "maverick." Is that a presidential decision?
Good politics.
b) After spending the entire campaign telling us how unqualified Barack Obama is to be President (who has served in Illinois state office and in the US Senate), he picked a woman from the smallest state in the nation, with less than 2 years of statewide office experience, as a person he believes can potentially run the country, if he dies or is hurt. Is that a presidential decision? Even more, is that a decision that falls in line with his own rhetoric?
You are right - but he is betting the only people who notice that will be die hard democrat voters.
He is Obama'ing himeself
He is buying in some right on cred and hence salving the conscious of those swing republicans pretending to have new found "punish bush" liberal leanings to vote republican again like they normally do - hey we voted for a woman. :)
c) He passed over several very good candidates, including Tom Ridge, a decorated veteran who's been in the cabinet, and is actually pro-choice, and Kay Bailey Hutchison, a much more experienced woman candidate. Does that show presidential judgement?
If he gets the voted to be the next president then that shows presidential judgement and the election is decided by people who don't know what or who you are talking about.
I also think it is gimmicky - but as gimmicks go it is a good one for him to pull.
Fair play - made me go "wow" when I heard today.
Whether it will play out in the long run - who knows, the well oiled attack machines will mean a short honeymoon for his new vice prez.
fingers — Aug 30, 2008
He is buying in some right on cred and hence salving the conscious of those swing republicans pretending to have new found "punish bush" liberal leanings to vote republican again like they normally do - hey we voted for a woman. :)
It seems like "independent" is the new smugpublican.
Hookbender — Aug 29, 2008I just think you both have a problem with a women being in power. See, works both ways, doesn't it.
You are completely incorrect. AMUSING, but incorrect.
I'd love to see a woman president...so long as she's not a two-faced, slimy, entitled BITCH (Hillary) or a no-experience, right-wing evangelical, so-fucked-in-the-head-that-she-even-thinks-abortion-should-be-banned-for-rape-and-incest WINGNUT (Palin).
But I bet their children love them...so at least they've got that going for them.
Tripper
BINGEWOOD — Aug 30, 2008[quote author=fingers link=1220026019/0#7 date=1220058501]
He is buying in some right on cred and hence salving the conscious of those swing republicans pretending to have new found "punish bush" liberal leanings to vote republican again like they normally do - hey we voted for a woman. :)
It seems like "independent" is the new smugpublican.
Ain't that the truth...
Tripper
Seems to me the person doing the "changing" even before he gets elected is McCain.
We'll see. I'd believe that if he changed his entire messaging about Obama after this, and dropped the "not ready to lead" message. And what's he going to do about the "3 AM" adhs he ripped from Hillary? How ready is a mother of 5, one a baby with Down's syndrome, going to be at 3 AM?
It definitely fucks the shit up about his messaging.
Anyway, earlier, you, Hookbender, stated that you were impressed with the pick of Biden, and were interested to see who McCain picked. Are you telling me that now you are impressed now with McCain's "gimmick?" If so, your view into the elections is pretty damn shallow. What would have impressed me as a "change" move by McCain would be to pick someone who doesn't support all of his positions. For example, McCain picking Hillary Clinton would be a killer move. McCain picking Colin Powell would have been a sure win (however, when the McCain campaign started tossing Powell's name around in public, he called them and said he had no interest in being McCain's VP). McCain picking anybody pro-choice would have been at least a differentiator.
But what McCain is essentially saying is, "I am the most qualified person to be president, and second most qualified is Sarah Palin." Do you agree with that statement?
charger — Aug 30, 2008We'll see. I'd believe that if he changed his entire messaging about Obama after this, and dropped the "not ready to lead" message. And what's he going to do about the "3 AM" adhs he ripped from Hillary? How ready is a mother of 5, one a baby with Down's syndrome, going to be at 3 AM?
It definitely fucks the shit up about his messaging.
Anyway, earlier, you, Hookbender, stated that you were impressed with the pick of Biden, and were interested to see who McCain picked. Are you telling me that now you are impressed now with McCain's "gimmick?" If so, your view into the elections is pretty damn shallow. What would have impressed me as a "change" move by McCain would be to pick someone who doesn't support all of his positions. For example, McCain picking Hillary Clinton would be a killer move. McCain picking Colin Powell would have been a sure win (however, when the McCain campaign started tossing Powell's name around in public, he called them and said he had no interest in being McCain's VP). McCain picking anybody pro-choice would have been at least a differentiator.
But what McCain is essentially saying is, "I am the most qualified person to be president, and second most qualified is Sarah Palin." Do you agree with that statement?
Well, the mother of 5 isn't the President, first of all. And her record is one worthy of respect. And if you hold ageist her the fact she has a child with a horrible disease, well, your shit, to put is nicely. That's a pretty sick jab.
Do I think this women is ready to be President? Well, lets see....I guess she's a little more ready than Obama.
But no, I think this is a horrible choice for VP. And this entire election has become a circus this year led by Obama and will probably be followed by McCain. It's embarrassing, to be honest with you. I am embarrassed as a voter and American. It's like they stole the them from Rocky and corn balled it to death. This is serious as hell, and it's being made to look like a rock concert. Absolutely disgusting to me.
Hookbender — Aug 31, 2008Well, the mother of 5 isn't the President, first of all. And her record is one worthy of respect. And if you hold ageist her the fact she has a child with a horrible disease, well, your shit, to put is nicely. That's a pretty sick jab.
A horrible disease? Her kid has Down's syndrome. A horrible disease is something like Tay-Sachs syndrome, or leukemia. Down's syndrome is simply a birth defect that means her kid will be slower, look a little different, and never be an executive. My point is that a kid with special needs NEEDS to have her parents involved in raising her. She can't be shoveled off to the White House staff while mom figures out the Georgian crisis. It's ludicrous to think that is a jab at her special needs daughter. It's just reality. I've got a lot of first-hand experience in this realm, so don't pretend to know shit about me.
As far as her record being one worthy of respect? What record? Name me a decision she's made. Elucidate for me the ramifications of her work as the mayor of a town with like, 9000 people in it, and then as governmor of a state that has 1/3 of the population of the city where the Pubs are holding their convention. She's got no record to speak of.
Do I think this women is ready to be President? Well, lets see....I guess she's a little more ready than Obama.
WEll, that proves your ridiculous bias. I can't think of a single reason anyone could say she is "more ready than Obama." That's ludicrous.
But no, I think this is a horrible choice for VP. And this entire election has become a circus this year led by Obama and will probably be followed by McCain. It's embarrassing, to be honest with you. I am embarrassed as a voter and American. It's like they stole the them from Rocky and corn balled it to death. This is serious as hell, and it's being made to look like a rock concert. Absolutely disgusting to me.
Although I don't agree that it's been made a "circus" by Obama... I'm not sure how you can say that about the most historic candidacy in history... remember, 40 years ago there were still "literacy tests" and "poll taxes" on blacks.
I think it shows that America has come a long way.
the interesting thing is that Republicans have figured out a way to pigeon-hole their candidates with a one-line phrase very well over the last few elections. Remember John Kerry... two phrases... "flip-flopper" and then "swift boat." With Obama, it's been "not ready to lead." McCain torpedoed his own argument by picking Palin, which is, I think, the most interesting thing a Republican has done in 16 years. Nuking his own argument. I also think the idea that McCain thought he could substitute a woman--any woman-- for Hillary, and get her voters, is pretty much a slap in the face to Hillary's supporters. Unless they were only voting for Hillary because she was a woman... Hillary's positions are pretty much 180 degrees out of phase with Palin's. It's a wrench in the works... and we'll see how it plays out.
My wife luckily had a false positive test when she was pregnant with our daughter. Downs syndrom is a very serious disorder. It may not be a disease, but the victoms of this disorder are much more likely to fall victom to disease. And yes, it is poor judgement to attack this women for having a child with this disorder. I don't pretend to know anything about you, except that it is pitiful that you use this agaist the women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome
I'm not gonna discuss this with you anymore. Your use of this womens child's situation is crossing the line. Enjoy your thoughts.
Hookbender — Aug 31, 2008My wife luckily had a false positive test when she was pregnant with our daughter. Downs syndrom is a very serious disorder. It may not be a disease, but the victoms of this disorder are much more likely to fall victom to disease. And yes, it is poor judgement to attack this women for having a child with this disorder. I don't pretend to know anything about you, except that it is pitiful that you use this agaist the women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome
I'm not gonna discuss this with you anymore. Your use of this womens child's situation is crossing the line. Enjoy your thoughts.
She certainly is showing lil Trig that she puts country first.
charger — Aug 31, 2008[quote author=Hookbender link=1220026019/0#13 date=1220155553]Well, the mother of 5 isn't the President, first of all. And her record is one worthy of respect. And if you hold ageist her the fact she has a child with a horrible disease, well, your shit, to put is nicely. That's a pretty sick jab.
A horrible disease? Her kid has Down's syndrome. A horrible disease is something like Tay-Sachs syndrome, or leukemia. Down's syndrome is simply a birth defect that means her kid will be slower, look a little different, and never be an executive. My point is that a kid with special needs NEEDS to have her parents involved in raising her. She can't be shoveled off to the White House staff while mom figures out the Georgian crisis. It's ludicrous to think that is a jab at her special needs daughter. It's just reality. I've got a lot of first-hand experience in this realm, so don't pretend to know shit about me.
As the father of a special-needs kid, I find it sickening that she even accepted the position. If I could easily afford it (his therapy is expensive), I'd quit my job today to take care of my autistic son. Her kid needs her more than she knows, and she's putting him second. That's a fact. And Trig is going to be way worse off than my son. For you to think Charger was making a jab
at the kid just shows how fucking far you have to go before you're able to really understand rational discourse.
As far as her record being one worthy of respect? What record? Name me a decision she's made. Elucidate for me the ramifications of her work as the mayor of a town with like, 9000 people in it, and then as governmor of a state that has 1/3 of the population of the city where the Pubs are holding their convention. She's got no record to speak of.Do I think this women is ready to be President? Well, lets see....I guess she's a little more ready than Obama.
WEll, that proves your ridiculous bias. I can't think of a single reason anyone could say she is "more ready than Obama." That's ludicrous.
AMEN, Charger.
But no, I think this is a horrible choice for VP. And this entire election has become a circus this year led by Obama and will probably be followed by McCain. It's embarrassing, to be honest with you. I am embarrassed as a voter and American. It's like they stole the them from Rocky and corn balled it to death. This is serious as hell, and it's being made to look like a rock concert. Absolutely disgusting to me.
Although I don't agree that it's been made a "circus" by Obama... I'm not sure how you can say that about the most historic candidacy in history... remember, 40 years ago there were still "literacy tests" and "poll taxes" on blacks.
I think it shows that America has come a long way.
Well, perhaps half of it has...the rest still think Obama hates America and is a secret Muslim...
the interesting thing is that Republicans have figured out a way to pigeon-hole their candidates with a one-line phrase very well over the last few elections. Remember John Kerry... two phrases... "flip-flopper" and then "swift boat." With Obama, it's been "not ready to lead." McCain torpedoed his own argument by picking Palin, which is, I think, the most interesting thing a Republican has done in 16 years. Nuking his own argument. I also think the idea that McCain thought he could substitute a woman--any woman-- for Hillary, and get her voters, is pretty much a slap in the face to Hillary's supporters. Unless they were only voting for Hillary because she was a woman... Hillary's positions are pretty much 180 degrees out of phase with Palin's. It's a wrench in the works... and we'll see how it plays out.
My stupid mother sent me an e-mail forward yesterday that contained McCain's speech about the pledge from a few years back, which also had the picture of Obama standing at attention with his hands down while Bill Richardson and Hillary stood behind him with their hands over their heart, and claimed he did it during the pledge (which was a lie - it was the national anthem, which requires no such action).
The BIG STUPID is still alive and well, and being passed around like spam porn all over the internet. This is where all the idiots who hate Obama get their beliefs from - that and right-wing pundits who are about as educated about Obama as McCain is educated about Iraqi Muslims.
(the joke there is that they AREN'T educated, since McCain even THIS YEAR didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite)
The BIG STUPID is what has me worried for this country, and brings me to the brink of tears when I think about what sort of place my kids will have to live in when they're older if stupidity and ignorance (of the right-wing, evangelical, Republican type) continues to grow in this country.
We've gotten really far from where this place started, which is evident in the "Patriots" indignation about Obama and the pledge, as the founders (by and large) thought the very concept of a pledge of allegiance was an absurd and disgusting proposition.
I still shudder when I think about the official name they gave the 9/11 holiday: "Patriot Day" - I guess "Nationalist Day" didn't have the same ring to it, or "Innocent victims of foolish Middle East policies and fundamentalist psychopathic religion Day" was too long.
"Patriot" used to mean something...now it's a name for a MISSILE and, of course, what ignorant assholes with magnets on their SUVs call themselves.
Tripper
BINGEWOOD — Aug 31, 2008[quote author=Hookbender link=1220026019/0#15 date=1220205042]My wife luckily had a false positive test when she was pregnant with our daughter. Downs syndrom is a very serious disorder. It may not be a disease, but the victoms of this disorder are much more likely to fall victom to disease. And yes, it is poor judgement to attack this women for having a child with this disorder. I don't pretend to know anything about you, except that it is pitiful that you use this agaist the women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome
I'm not gonna discuss this with you anymore. Your use of this womens child's situation is crossing the line. Enjoy your thoughts.
She certainly is showing lil Trig that she puts country first.
Tripper
Tripper — Sep 01, 2008 ...McCain even THIS YEAR didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite...
Tripper
You sure that wasn't Shiite and Shinola?
Hookbender — Aug 31, 2008My wife luckily had a false positive test when she was pregnant with our daughter. Downs syndrom is a very serious disorder. It may not be a disease, but the victoms of this disorder are much more likely to fall victom to disease. And yes, it is poor judgement to attack this women for having a child with this disorder. I don't pretend to know anything about you, except that it is pitiful that you use this agaist the women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome
I'm not gonna discuss this with you anymore. Your use of this womens child's situation is crossing the line. Enjoy your thoughts.
Shit man, maybe they should reinstitute literacy tests in Alabama, since you sure as shit didn't get within a fucking country mile of my meaning when you read my post.
As for me crossing the line to "use this woman's situation"--who's using it more than McCain?
Palin pleased with Obama's energy plan:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:wbCGTUeD1r0J:www.gov.state.ak.us/news.php%3Fid%3D1384+http://www.gov.state.ak.us/news.php%3Fid%3D1384&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Too bad for her that Google caches pages, cuz she took this one off the Alaska site pretty damn quick after McCain started calling...
Oh, cool, she thinks creationism should be taught in schools, too. I can't wait for VP Palin to start making policy!
http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/story/8347904p-8243554c.html
The Polling Report numbers are just coming in...
McCains choice of Palin, at first blush, looks good...
"Do you think John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin reflects favorably or unfavorably on McCain's ability to make important presidential decisions?"
Favorable 57%, unfavorable 40%.
Looks good, until you see Obama's numbers from a week earlier:
"Do you think Barack Obama's choice of Joe Biden reflects favorably or unfavorably on Obama's ability to make important presidential decisions?"
Favorable 67%, Unfavorable 28%.
"As the father of a special-needs kid, I find it sickening that she even accepted the position. If I could easily afford it (his therapy is expensive), I'd quit my job today to take care of my autistic son. Her kid needs her more than she knows, and she's putting him second. That's a fact. And Trig is going to be way worse off than my son. For you to think Charger was making a jab at the kid just shows how fucking far you have to go before you're able to really understand rational discourse."
You find it sickening that she accepted the position??????
First, we don't know the details of her childs case. However, she does have a husband to help her. She isn't alone as a parent. She will be able to afford the absolute best care, doctors etc available for her child. If she didn't think she could handle the situation, her and her husband, then she wouldn't have taken the job. She isn't that type person, from what I've read about her.
And before you relate religious type people to republicans, you may need to remember that Obama is as religious as people get. Remember who his preacher was?
I understand rational discourse just fine. I just haven't seen that concerning the great Obama yet. ;)
Hookbender — Sep 01, 2008And before you relate religious type people to republicans, you may need to remember that Obama is as religious as people get. Remember who his preacher was?
I understand rational discourse just fine. I just haven't seen that concerning the great Obama yet. ;)
First, it would be nice if you stopped being such a condescending asshole about Obama. Your parroting of the Republican's anti-Obama message is certainly the easiest course you can take, and I realize you are probably too fucking lazy to actually read the links I put up, and do some research on your own, but I think this discussion board is a little above your cheap-ass shots at him. If you can't make a decent argument without resorting to "
the great Obama" or McCain's "celebrity" branding, you should not be in the discussion. You are wasting our time and yours. if you were actually open to a discussion here you would be responding to the things we've posted instead of falling back on the cheapest message you can find. Yeah, Obama is
POPULAR. So was JFK. So what? Only in a place as cynical as America can the fact the people
like him when they hear him speak be considered a negative. But you haven't had a fucking
thing to say about him that is positive. Obama makes a great speech, you think it's too good. Obama lays out a decent energy policy, you think it's unrealistic. Obama ditches his preacher, it's too late for you. Obama picks a great VP, you say "can't wait to see who McCain picks."
Meanwhile, McCain shits on the floor and points at it, while giggling, and you say "what a fucking genius."
You are as transparent as glass. Even those of us who think McCain is going to send the country into the next great Depression have
something good to say about him.
"As religious as people get?" You think Obama supports teaching creationism, outlawing gay marriage and gay unions of any kind, and outlawing abortion in any case (even in cases of rape or incest?) because the Bible tells him so? You certainly seemed to be against those things (and Obama has come out against all of them)... but I guess it's fine that Palin supports them.
Wow, that's so fucking
Maverick, I feel like I'm watching
Top Gun.
I'm only being negative toward's Obama when it's painfully obvious that one needs to question the points I've brought up.
The problem here is not me saying talk radio stuff, it's you giving the same ole crap excuses the talk radio gives.
You don't really listen to what I say, considering you ignored the fact I said this women McCain picked is, imo, a horrible choice.
I also don't dislike either candidate enough to pounce on the fact that one vp choice has a child with DS. That's garbage.
Maybe I do need to get out of this discussion. Why...because there isn't anything you guy's are saying in defense of Obama that I haven't thought, or heard on radio and T.V. In short...there isn't anything to learn here, I don't guess.
I'll have to look for info elsewhere.
When Obama get's elected, if he does, what are you gonna say when he spends this country into a bigger disaster? Oh wait, you'll blame it on Bush as usual, right?
Where is Obama gonna get billions of dollars for all the new programs he plans to start, while cutting taxes on 95% of Americans with a economy or country that is in debt as never before.....while basically fighting two wars and giving billions of dollars to other countries and guaranteeing health care for everyone?
That's a decent legit question. Answer that please.
If you answer that question, or point me to a good response, I'll vote for Obama. Hows that?
Hookbender — Sep 01, 2008"As the father of a special-needs kid, I find it sickening that she even accepted the position. If I could easily afford it (his therapy is expensive), I'd quit my job today to take care of my autistic son. Her kid needs her more than she knows, and she's putting him second. That's a fact. And Trig is going to be way worse off than my son. For you to think Charger was making a jab at the kid just shows how fucking far you have to go before you're able to really understand rational discourse."
You find it sickening that she accepted the position??????
First, we don't know the details of her childs case. However, she does have a husband to help her. She isn't alone as a parent. She will be able to afford the absolute best care, doctors etc available for her child. If she didn't think she could handle the situation, her and her husband, then she wouldn't have taken the job. She isn't that type person, from what I've read about her.
Her ambition is trumping the needs of her child, in my opinion. Vice Presidents travel. A LOT. Sure, dad can help a ton, but the kids do better when they have a good amount of time with both. And if you knew anything about that, you wouldn't be arguing the point, unless, of course, you're being a partisan and defending her simply because we're attacking her and she's not "our girl".
And before you relate religious type people to republicans, you may need to remember that Obama is as religious as people get. Remember who his preacher was?
I know he's religious. That and his difficulty working off-script are two things I don't really like about him. I think statistics are pretty clear on this one, though, Mr. "Argue-simply-to-argue-because-you're-fucking-wrong-and-don't-want-to-admit-it".
MOST evangelicals align themselves with the Republican Party, and they have since Reagan. My statement is nowhere near being inaccurate, and I was speaking SPECIFICALLY about Republican evangelicals. Duh. Reading comprehension is power.
I understand rational discourse just fine. I just haven't seen that concerning the great Obama yet. ;)
No, you don't. There's been plenty of rational discussion about Obama. None of it has involved you, though.
Tripper
Hookbender — Sep 01, 2008I'm only being negative toward's Obama when it's painfully obvious that one needs to question the points I've brought up.
That's not true - you're creating your own reality of what you've said and done in regards to Obama...and if you could go back and read the threads about him from the WH, you might see that.
The problem here is not me saying talk radio stuff, it's you giving the same ole crap excuses the talk radio gives.
What talk radio? We have talk radio that's not slamming Obama 24/7? Who? Ed Schultz? Stephanie Miller? I think they're the only two left that are left of right-wing...
You don't really listen to what I say, considering you ignored the fact I said this women McCain picked is, imo, a horrible choice.
We didn't ignore that. You just don't sound as though you really dislike the choices McCain has made, and you come down unfairly hard on Obama for things that are much more trivial (and sometimes your paranoid fantasy).
I also don't dislike either candidate enough to pounce on the fact that one vp choice has a child with DS. That's garbage.
How DARE we come down on her for making a selfish choice, putting her job ahead of her family! Maybe if she paid more attention to what her kids were doing her daughter wouldn't be knocked up at 17...you know what? I've changed my mind. I'm GLAD she decided to take the job. Then maybe Trig has a fair shot at growing up well because his mom won't fuck it up. (That's meant as a joke...)
Maybe I do need to get out of this discussion. Why...because there isn't anything you guy's are saying in defense of Obama that I haven't thought, or heard on radio and T.V. In short...there isn't anything to learn here, I don't guess.
I'll have to look for info elsewhere.
Stay away from the places you've been visiting - apparently they only have Republican press releases there.
When Obama get's elected, if he does, what are you gonna say when he spends this country into a bigger disaster? Oh wait, you'll blame it on Bush as usual, right?
Okay, now I'm convinced you've lost it...what a fucking retarded argument! If you know and/or remember ANYTHING about me and Charger, and the way we discuss these things, you know we'll shit all over Obama, too, for fucking it up.
We're not the sheep you keep trying to make us out to be. We just have more information than you, and a more optimistic outlook about the mulatto guy.
Tripper
Hookbender — Sep 01, 2008Where is Obama gonna get billions of dollars for all the new programs he plans to start, while cutting taxes on 95% of Americans with a economy or country that is in debt as never before.....while basically fighting two wars and giving billions of dollars to other countries and guaranteeing health care for everyone?
That's a decent legit question. Answer that please.
If you answer that question, or point me to a good response, I'll vote for Obama. Hows that?
Well, it's bullshit, because #1, the question CAN'T BE ANSWERED, because a combination of things have to happen for the situation to even present itself. Plus, you're ignoring the history of political campaigning, where the candidates always over-promise, and aren't always able to do what they plan to do because sometimes the financial security of the nation is more important.
Bush ignored that when he CHOSE to go to war in Iraq. But that's just piling on.
I think it's pretty obvious Obama WILL balance the budget with the help of Biden and the Congress. I have no doubt that will happen, barring some major financial/economic disaster. That's really the priority - financial solvency...
Obama MAY figure out a way for those programs to work. At the very least, he'll work to get the ball rolling and get us more involved and have a bigger stake in our country's future, instead of telling us "go back to your normal lives - go shopping".
It'd be foolish to even attempt to do the math at this point. We don't even have a clue how much tax money's going to be raised when he returns the tax rates for the rich back to their pre-Bush levels (which didn't hurt anyone in the 90s...), or when the revisions in the tax code (closing of loopholes, etc.) start to bring in more money. Who knows?
I'm not basing my choice on these hypotheticals, though. I'm basing it on who these men are. Barack Obama is a smart, calm, inquisitive man. John McCain seems relatively smart, but doesn't do his homework, is rash, and doesn't really concern himself with details (repeatedly, and almost always at his peril, which will become ours if he becomes our president).
All the other stuff is political posturing. Debatable, sure. Can we wish for the stuff to happen? Absolutely. Is it inevitable they'll be able to deliver on their promises? Nope. So therefore it's not really the most important factor.
We'll see how they govern. If Obama runs the country like he's run his campaign, we're in good shape. If McCain does the same, we are completely FUCKED.
So, no answer to your question, because no one can answer it right now. And I really don't give a FUCK who you vote for...just stop being a reactive dumbshit on every issue that relates to Barack Obama.
Tripper
Hookbender — Sep 01, 2008Where is Obama gonna get billions of dollars for all the new programs he plans to start, while cutting taxes on 95% of Americans with a economy or country that is in debt as never before.....while basically fighting two wars and giving billions of dollars to other countries and guaranteeing health care for everyone?
That's a decent legit question. Answer that please.
If you answer that question, or point me to a good response, I'll vote for Obama. Hows that?
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2008/db20080611_220050.htm
Tripper — Sep 02, 2008We'll see how they govern. If Obama runs the country like he's run his campaign, we're in good shape. If McCain does the same, we are completely FUCKED.
Seriously.
Tripper
So your one of those people who will be voting on emotion, right?
I ask a question you can't answer and "you" call me a "dumbshit"?
You vote for a man based on his beautiful speaches, or a person you deam smart enough to be a President?
Yet you dismiss my question and basically say..."we know he won't do it, but he say's he will with elegance"??? ;D ;D ;D
I'd say there is much less bullshit coming from McCain. I'd also say the change is actually being done by McCain even before he get's elected.
I'd also say, that your Obama dude agrees with me about attacking candidates children on any level, including one's entire family.
Look, it's also "painfully" obvious that my knowledge of politics is limited, I admitted that. But you've also got to admit that your defense of Obama is limited and very opinionated at best.
Just so you know, I'm not questioning to piss you off. This is how my religious views started changing, and you see the results of my change is asking questions. Hell yes I'm a little slow, ignorant about politics and this debate, but don't think I just read and respond without thinking about what you say.
That goes for you also, Charger. I really am thinking about what you say also. Seriously. Now I'm going to read your post and article so you don't get pissed. ;D ;D
:)
That was pretty interesting Charger!
Now, about the money he plans to spend continuing the war in Afghanistan, health care for everyone, etc that I mentioned.
Hookbender — Sep 02, 2008Tripper
So your one of those people who will be voting on emotion, right?
I ask a question you can't answer and "you" call me a "dumbshit"?
What's your answer to how McCain's plan will help the country? He's got a lot of spending in mind, too, plus very little plan to pay for it. Trust me on this. I know more than you do.
You vote for a man based on his beautiful speaches, or a person you deam smart enough to be a President?
Obama is certainly smarter than McCain. It's not even a close contest. He's made many, many better choices than McCain over the course of his career.
Yet you dismiss my question and basically say..."we know he won't do it, but he say's he will with elegance"??? ;D ;D ;D
That's not really what I said - I just explained the harsh reality of checks and balances. You must be a Republican - you take something you think means one thing, and then spin it to mean whatever you want!
I'd say there is much less bullshit coming from McCain. I'd also say the change is actually being done by McCain even before he get's elected.
That's a hilarious comment for its ignorance.
I'd also say, that your Obama dude agrees with me about attacking candidates children on any level, including one's entire family.
When did I attack the children? Please show me.
Look, it's also "painfully" obvious that my knowledge of politics is limited, I admitted that. But you've also got to admit that your defense of Obama is limited and very opinionated at best.
Really? Or do you just ignore the salient points because of your inherent biases against the man? I've made very solid points about Obama, and so has Charger. We've backed them up with statistics and original-source support. You've ignored those pieces of evidence and cast them aside because you don't want to hear it.
Just so you know, I'm not questioning to piss you off. This is how my religious views started changing, and you see the results of my change is asking questions. Hell yes I'm a little slow, ignorant about politics and this debate, but don't think I just read and respond without thinking about what you say.
Well, I just hope that you can see that when we make factual arguments about McCain and Palin (and Obama) and you ignore them for whatever reason, it makes you look reactionary and ignorant.
That goes for you also, Charger. I really am thinking about what you say also. Seriously. Now I'm going to read your post and article so you don't get pissed. ;D ;D :)
Dude's doing good work...I like the fact that he's been so strong with the evidence - it saves me time.
Tripper
What choices has Obama made better than McCain? What are these better choices?
And...what career are you talking about? I wasn't aware he had a career.
Are you answering my question with a question? That isn't an answer.
I don't see how you can call me ignorant about politics and admit yourself, kinda, that your voting on emotion and your pick for President really can't do what he says he wants to. Do you like liars or something? I mean damn, you should want to have sex with Bush if that's the case.
Hookbender — Sep 05, 2008
And...what career are you talking about? I wasn't aware he had a career.
Hhe taught Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago for 12 years, was an Illinois State Senator for 8 years, and a US Senator for 4, and in the midst of that, was employed at a Chicago law firm for 11 years. If that's "no career" then my 12 years as a technical writer certainly doesn't qualify as a career either.
Hookbender — Sep 05, 2008What choices has Obama made better than McCain? What are these better choices?
How about in leadership and management of their campaigns?
Obama's campaign has been run with an incredible amount of efficiency, and still makes money. McCain, despite his party out-earning the Dems like crazy, still hasn't made a lot of money, and will have to accept federal support. That's just one.
How about Obama's decision to do a ridiculous amount of research into his VP candidates and pick someone he knows well? McCain apparently has done very little research into Palin and met her a grand total of once before offering her the job. There's another.
And...what career are you talking about? I wasn't aware he had a career.
Wow, you just eat up that Republican spin, don't you? Wait - I bet next you'll go after him for being a "community organizer", ans though that's some sort of disreputable job. His career speaks for itself. You just aren't listening.
Are you answering my question with a question? That isn't an answer.
I forgot to include them:
So your one of those people who will be voting on emotion, right?
No.
I ask a question you can't answer and "you" call me a "dumbshit"?
Yes. And why the FUCK did you put "you" and "dumbshit" in quotes? Learn English.
I don't see how you can call me ignorant about politics and admit yourself, kinda, that your voting on emotion and your pick for President really can't do what he says he wants to.
I never said I was voting on emotion. I was trying to say that I was voting for the guy who seems least likely to completely fuck everything up. The guy who listens. The guy who learns things. This isn't "emotion" - these are the foundations of their personalities, and a very smart means for making a choice on who should lead, policy aside. Add policy, and the choice is clear. The lack of a different economic plan by McCain really is problematic to me, since it's obvious that the Bush plan was a DISASTER (even though you seem to ignore that fact). The fact that he did so little homework before choosing Palin, who is an obviously pandering choice (to make a pathetic attempt for the Hillary voters and the evangelicals who don't like McCain) is also extremely disconcerting. And I used to LIKE John McCain. I just didn't realize he was so desperate to be president that he'd go against his ideals in such a brash and pathetic manner.
Do you like liars or something? I mean damn, you should want to have sex with Bush if that's the case.
Where does this come from? Where has Obama lied? I mean, McCain has done a lot of lying (okay, "misinforming") about Obama and his record, not to mention the horseshit they're spewing about Palin and her "record", but I don't see where this comment even comes from, except from your fantasy world where Obama is a black militant, completely at the behest of Jeremiah Wright, best friends forever, spiritually controlled by him, and always doing his bidding...
I'm sad for you that you're so deluded as to not see this contest clearly...and how you have to distort the things I wrote with your weird, nuance-free spin.
Tripper
I'm so confused! Next you're going to tell me that Palin's NOT Mother Theresa and Obama's NOT a Muslim terrorist??! ;)
Trip
What part of the Obama economic plan will he be able to do?
I'm deluded??? No, I don't think so. I'm just not gonna vote for a person who try's to gain votes by spewing a load of bullshit he knows, I hope, he can't do. Or for practically another Bush with an idiot vp choice. I see things the way they are. I am looking at this and can tell reality from horseshit.
Hookbender — Sep 08, 2008Trip
What part of the Obama economic plan will he be able to do?
I'm deluded??? No, I don't think so. I'm just not gonna vote for a person who try's to gain votes by spewing a load of bullshit he knows, I hope, he can't do. Or for practically another Bush with an idiot vp choice. I see things the way they are. I am looking at this and can tell reality from horseshit.
I imagine that he will be able to do most of his economic plan, except for healthcare. It's not that I think he is overly ambitious on health care. I just think there are too many insurance companies making too much money to allow a change of that magnitude to happen. What I envision over the next ten years is one of two futures: one of gradual change and recovery from our current economic crisis, with things like health care
reform addressed in some fashion. I think Obama can make this happen, given his platforms, ideas, and willingness to change the whole focus of Washington politics as usual to server the people. Then again, he could fail, and be voted out in four years. The other possible option is McCain, who, though he now claims to be an outsider, is not looking to bring any change to the system. Everyone backing him has a vested interest in keeping things as they are--he hasn't amassed donations in the $25-50 range the way Obama has. His donors are wealthy and want to stay there. This informs his economic policy, which, you'll notice, he tries very hard not to talk about. 4 years of more of the same, or even an expansion of the gap in incomes, and more unemployment, bankruptcy, and foreclosure at the low end. I'm not sure that either man can rescue the economy, and it's becoming an increasingly common perception that our economy might be beyond any sort of short-term rescue, and we might instead just not be the economic power we once were. What I am sure of, is that McCain has very little to offer in his plan to the average, middle-class American. A good site to check for impartial analysis of all the garbage you are hearing now is factcheck.org. They take apart the rhetoric and ads of both sides and give you fair, impartial analysis of rhetoric vs. facts.
I'll check that out Charger.
In the back of my mind, I'd still like to give Obama the benefit of the doubt. Like you said, he may not be able to accomplish what he wants fully, but making progress isn't really a failure, imo.
On healthcare, the problem will be the doctors and nurses. They all have showed dislike of Obama's healthcare plans. If we start loosing even more nurses because of him, we could have huge problems. I'm no expert on that either, but my wife is a RN and she hears doctors talk about this all the time.
If you look at this, well, like I do, the cause of our healthcare problems stem from people being uninsured at the hospital level. Basically. That causes everyone to pay higher bills at the hospital to cover those people and higher insurance cost for the lucky who have it. So something has to be done or the cost will continue to rise, especially with the illegal immigrant problems we now have. At some point, they will surely burden the system with illness and probably babies. ;D
However,if cutting taxes is bad for McCain, it's also bad for Obama. If we need more income from tax revenue to get us out of debt, then cutting taxes is bad for both guy's. Right? Yes. Thank you.
I'll check out the site you mentioned. Thanks.
Hookbender — Sep 08, 2008
However,if cutting taxes is bad for McCain, it's also bad for Obama. If we need more income from tax revenue to get us out of debt, then cutting taxes is bad for both guy's. Right? Yes. Thank you.
We've already been over this. Considering how much more money the guys at the top make compared to the middle class, increasing taxes on the wealthy makes sense, and if you can give tax breaks to the middle class, that makes sense too. McCain cuts very little for the middle class compared to Obama, but cuts some for the upper class, unlike Obama. It's pretty simple math... cutting 2% of the tax from someone making $40,000 takes $800 out of the budget. Raising taxes 2% on someone making $900,000 adds $18,000. That pays for 22.5 tax cuts for people making 40k. You just gotta trust the numbers so many sites have calculated (e.g. the Tax Policy Center). More money comes in under Obama's plan.
I find the Obama healthcare plan thing interesting. I don't know that McCain even has a plan. Which makes me wonder... given the choice between doing nothing, and doing something, which would doctors and nurses choose. I've certainly heard a lot of complaints about the current system. Even having decent healthcare (if anyone can call the joke that is
Aetna decent), my dentist and several doctors have complained to me quite a bit about how convoluted the system is. Aetna makes a practice of sending me a note every three months or so asking me to "prove" that I was covered for some period of time. And every time, it's a period where
I was covered by them. So, no matter what plan Obama comes up with, it's gotta be better than the shitfest it is now.
Hookbender — Sep 08, 2008Trip
What part of the Obama economic plan will he be able to do?
I'm with charger - I think most of it...but he's going to have to work with people to make it happen, and I think that's a good possibility if he stays above the fray and McCain doesn't continue on the "bat shit crazy" partisan path he's decided to tread with his choice of Palin and the mountains of lying they've been doing since the RNC about Obama's record.
I'm deluded??? No, I don't think so. I'm just not gonna vote for a person who try's to gain votes by spewing a load of bullshit he knows, I hope, he can't do. Or for practically another Bush with an idiot vp choice. I see things the way they are. I am looking at this and can tell reality from horseshit.
But you persist in making the same claims about Obama that McCain does...which shows that you really don't see things clearly, because most of what McCain has said about Obama has not been true, or has been a major distortion of his policies and his history.
That's why I say you're deluded - you really think Obama is the guy McCain is presenting, which is a crock of shit.
Tripper
The questions I've asked is pretty much the same questions all Americans have ask about the same issues. Had nothing to do with what McCain thinks at all. Both guys are taking a shit on each other. Nothing different than any other election. And, they both said they wouldn't do this. Or, maybe they were just talking about the debates. Either way, I'm pretty sick of the whole circus myself. It's bullshit.
And yes charger, I've heard many complaints about the current system myself. But the complaints I'm currently hearing is that Obama's plan would be worse than the current system, especially for doctors and nurses. I haven't got any specifics yet though. I'll see if the wife has heard something specific. I don't see myself, how it could be worse.
Hookbender — Sep 08, 2008The questions I've asked is pretty much the same questions all Americans have ask about the same issues. Had nothing to do with what McCain thinks at all. Both guys are taking a shit on each other. Nothing different than any other election. And, they both said they wouldn't do this. Or, maybe they were just talking about the debates. Either way, I'm pretty sick of the whole circus myself. It's bullshit.
I hoped he would stay above it myself. But I can see where he's coming from. If he said nothing in response, and didn't point out the BS, what he would basically be doing is sitting still while the McCain campaign (and particularly the "pit bull" Palin) ass-raped him. Now, clearly the American public values attack over defense... we've seen the bump in popularity McCain got just by having Palin out there ripping on Obama. It doesn't get much more mean-spirited than her. I believe that the Republican convention is the first time I have heard 3000 people
boo community service. That's just dark shit there. To counter that, you have to say
something.
Give Obama a little credit. The charges he's leveled are, for the most part, fair. Sarah Palin did, indeed, support the $230 million "Bridge to Nowhere" when she was running for governor. And when Congress killed the project, did she insist that the US government take back the $230 million they paid Alaska? Hell no! She kept it and spent it on other things. To not point out the
fact that Alaska is the number one state, per capita, in earmarks, would be the same as lying down and letting Palin run over him repeatedly. Even under the great governor Palin, they still managed to take #1 in earmarks. The Seattle PI breaks it down here: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008154532_webpalin02m.html .
What would you have Obama do? Sit back and say "I am above the fray" and lose the election because he refuses to counter their claims? You have to realize that both sides in this election feel like they have a real plan and reason to win this election, and feel they can serve the US with their plans.
I, for one, feel like he should slap that bitch in the mouth. McCain did a very smart thing picking her, because now he gets to play the nice old grandpa, while she spits vitriol all day long. Watch the headlines coming out of both camps, and see what she says. She is the same old crap, but meaner--and people are giving her a pass on it because she's new. It's something that you have to watch, kind of like an accident. But I'm not sure the people can take her vitriol for another 60 days.
She has one speech.
One speech full of lies that she repeats over and over.
She's done no interviews for two weeks.
Doesn't that say something to you? She's a robot. She only knows what she's been told. She's Bush all over again.
Sarah Palin is there specifically to create a lot of heat and spread a lot of lies about Barack Obama, and the saddest thing?
PEOPLE FUCKING BELIEVE IT!
When she says she didn't support the bridge - they buy it.
When she says Obama will raise your taxes (and implies he's going to raise EVERYONE's taxes, not just the really rich) - they buy it.
When she says she's a reformer - they buy it.
When she says she's against earmarks - they buy it.
Why? Because a certain class of people (people like my parents) never want to give a Democrat, any Democrat, a chance. They're too afraid it'll turn out like Jimmy Carter again (and of course, they ignore how well things went when Clinton was President - better than most Republicans).
Sarah Palin is a lying sack of shit, and I'm not ashamed to say it. She may be a nice lady and a loving mom, but she's a dirty politician in every sense of the word. John McCain is so desperate to be president, he's completely sold out his beliefs to win.
It's both disgusting and sad, and I am ashamed for him. I'll be more ashamed if Americans are so foolish as to give the turncoat the job.
Tripper
Tripper — Sep 09, 2008 Sarah Palin is a lying sack of shit, and I'm not ashamed to say it. She may be a nice lady and a loving mom, but she's a dirty politician in every sense of the word. John McCain is so desperate to be president, he's completely sold out his beliefs to win.
Are you implying that there are some politicians somewhere to which the above doesn't apply? (Ignoring the gender specifics.)
This new "electrified" McCain is freaky.