56 posts
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aa0cI64Gx.4E&pos=15
i'm turning into a broken record
By Garfield Reynolds and Wes Goodman
June 4 (Bloomberg) President Barack Obama is poised to increase the U.S. debt to a level that exceeds the value of the nations annual economic output, a step toward what Bill Gross called a debt super cycle.
The CHART OF THE DAY tracks U.S. gross domestic product and the governments total debt, which rose past $13 trillion for the first time this month. The amount owed will surpass GDP in 2012, based on forecasts by the International Monetary Fund. The lower panel shows U.S. annual GDP growth as tracked by the IMF, which projects the worlds largest economy to expand at a slower pace than the 3.2 percent average during the past five decades.
Over the long term, interest rates on government debt will likely have to rise to attract investors, said Hiroki Shimazu, a market economist in Tokyo at Nikko Cordial Securities Inc., a unit of Japans third-largest publicly traded bank. That will be a big burden on the government and the people.
Gross, who runs the worlds largest mutual fund at Pacific Investment Management Co. in Newport Beach, California, said in his June outlook report that the debt super cycle trend suggests U.S. economic growth wont be enough to support the borrowings if real interest rates were ever to go up instead of down.
Dan Fuss, who manages the Loomis Sayles Bond Fund, which beat 94 percent of competitors the past year, said last week that he sold all of his Treasury bonds because of prospects interest rates will rise as the U.S. borrows unprecedented amounts. Obama is borrowing record amounts to fund spending programs to help the economy recover from its longest recession since the 1930s.
The incremental borrower of funds in the U.S. capital markets is rapidly becoming the U.S. Treasury, Boston-based Fuss said. Do you really want to buy the debt of the biggest issuer?
Just wondering why you put in a link to the article, and then quoted the entire thing.
I'm really excited by this news, personally.
By the way, "Obama fault" is not going to work with the deficit, bro.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms
Read and weep. I'm not sure if you were even old enough to vote back then, but I am reasonably sure you would have voted for the guy who increased the deficit 20% in one term. Note that Barack started with a debt/GDP of 83.4%... if he just did what Bush did (essentially buying us nothing but tax breaks, while adding 20% to the debt/GDP ratio) he would come out over the 100% mark at the end of four years.
Strangely, I didn't see a single tea party when Bush was doing his thing.
I would personally love to see a candidate campaign on the platform of "we will end all of those tax breaks that are driving our economy into insane debt". You think that guy will get lots of votes?
I can't understand people excusing Obama's spending with the argument...Bush did it too. How lame is that? Damn.
I think Obama has good reason to spend. Any president in the economic situation he is in would do the same. And for the most part, I agree with that spending.
What infuriates me is when you tell me how out of control the deficit is and then blame Obama for it. He's been in office two years. And he had a shitstorm of a financial situation to deal with. The reason the deficit is so fucking out of control is not Obama. We got something for that money. We didn't get a goddamn THING for the money that Bush spent besides some wars no one wants, to take off our shoes at airports, and a couple hundred bucks in tax breaks.
I understand you don't like government spending. But you were a loyal puppet under Bush -- hell, you voted for him AFTER he invaded Iraq!-- and then you turned on Obama in less than a fucking year, in the midst of actual fiscal catastrophe.
So forgive me if your protest falls on deaf ears right now. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Apparently, you've read my complaints but failed to understand them.
I don't blame Obama for the deficit. I blame him for adding to it when he said he would first cut unnessary spending. 2 years into his first term, no cuts have been made. Hmmmm. Don't know about you, but it would seem to me he understood real well that cuts were necessary during his promotion, but forgot about that after his election. And...he's continuing to spend. Well, that is a dissapointment.
So, what are you and I gonna get from healthcare? Anything? Probably not. And, for the most part, the majoriety is against the shit in the first place. I'm for the helathcare thing....but kinowing that there's a 95% chance the government will fuck that shit up big time. In a few years I can see the holy shit look on your face. Mine too.
Well, if I turned on Obama that quick, I must be learning more about politics. I didn't vote for Obama because of what I hoped he would try to do, I voted for him because of what he said he would do. And yes, I'm probably over critical in wanting him to do what he said he would do, oh well.
You keep going back to Bush for some reason. I don't think he's still the president. I pretty much feel he was a horrible President, or made some horrible decisions. That's what I think. But, I want to read his book and hear the other side of the story. From him. His reasons for his decisions. And not all his decisions were bad, by the way. Be nice to hear his side of the story.
continuing on my broken record i don't give a damn what bush did as it was in the past. it isn't about political affiliation for me, simply about who is doing what now. and you cannot defend the spending going on now as either necessary or beneficial. it is the same old business as usual in washington
Hookbender — Jun 08, 2010
So, what are you and I gonna get from healthcare? Anything? Probably not. And, for the most part, the majoriety is against the shit in the first place. I'm for the helathcare thing....but kinowing that there's a 95% chance the government will fuck that shit up big time. In a few years I can see the holy shit look on your face. Mine too.
Uhh... I know people personally who have been unable to get healthcare because of preexisting conditions. And if I get sick, it will be nice to know that I won't get dropped from my insurance.
Well, if I turned on Obama that quick, I must be learning more about politics.
I wouldn't call that "learning about politics". I'd call it blowing in the wind.
You keep going back to Bush for some reason. I don't think he's still the president. I pretty much feel he was a horrible President, or made some horrible decisions. That's what I think. But, I want to read his book and hear the other side of the story. From him. His reasons for his decisions. And not all his decisions were bad, by the way. Be nice to hear his side of the story.
How could I NOT go back the the president who added 20% to the deficit as a percentage of GDP in his last term? That's more than anyone else,
ever. You want to talk about cutting spending? BULLSHIT. You just want to talk about why Obama isn't saving us from the nightmare of budget bullshit the previous administration handed him. You know why? Because he can't, because no one could. You do realize we spent two years in recession and we are just coming out of it? That receipts are way down? That mandatory spending--e.g. social security, unemployment, etc, were up half a trillion dollars for fiscal 2009? That's money the president can't even touch. We are currently recovering from a fiscal nightmare that could have been much, much worse, and all you can talk about is how the president should have stopped spending.
Do you have any idea what this economy would look like right now if we stopped spending?
Hell, chase is ready to bunker down with his gun and let people starve to death in the streets.
Most of us are not prepared for that, however.
nah, i'll make it down to ft. knox and get into an abrams if it comes to that. should make a pretty cool mad max vehicle
Obama can't make a dent in the deficit because he's to busy spending right now. He can't cut spending because he's to busy spending himself. That's the reality of the situation. No one expects him to erase the deficit, but expectations do include him addressing it. We certainly don't need to pile on the deficit, as he's doing.
I'd be interested in your opinion if we had a republican President and he continued spending as Obama is. I think your view would be a little different then.
I didn't say anything about us, the people, you and I.....stoping spending. I said Obama, our government needs to stop spending and growing. The economy would be just fine if our government stoped spending money.
I think Obama should just send everyone 200 grand and get it over with.
that would cost 60,000,000,000,000.
sixty trillion.
I would be happier simply passing an austerity measure mandating we spend only what we bring in in revenues. as crazy as that sounds to democrats it is an answer that would halt increasing our debt and put us back on the path to financial sustainability. charger, you equating only spending what we have to "bunkering down with a gun" is a very telling statement.
Man, that Obama, what a disaster. Can you believe it? Single-handedly ran up the deficit to $13 trillion--just paying for people on welfare to buy more crack! What an asshole. And by the way, that healthcare shit? Who needs it. I don't need more healthcare. And why the hell should sick people get it? They're sick. It's Darwin, baby. If you aren't healthy, you aren't meant to survive. Also, I have it on pretty good authority that 90% of those people who don't have healthcare yet are illegal aliens with ten children, who already get welfare and food stamps. I guess it's not all that surprising that a president who wasn't even born in this country would want to give all kinds of benefits to illegal aliens, mostly criminals and gang members. Because we all know that when Obama was raised in Indonesia, he learned to hate America, and now he's plotting to destroy America from within. Also, he hates Repulicans, white people, and Jesus Christ.
And then, of course, everyone forgets how in 2005, he invented the credit default swap, when he was contracting as a lawyer for AIG.
And how can people be so blind to his most infamous move, when he planted explosives on the Deepwater Horizon rig, then intentionally created a chaotic mess of a response? My god, has anyone ever seen BP's CEO and Obama in the same room at the same time? Of course not. See?
chase — Jun 08, 2010that would cost 60,000,000,000,000.
sixty trillion.
I would be happier simply passing an austerity measure mandating we spend only what we bring in in revenues. as crazy as that sounds to democrats it is an answer that would halt increasing our debt and put us back on the path to financial sustainability. charger, you equating only spending what we have to "bunkering down with a gun" is a very telling statement.
that should really read
as crazy as that sounds to republicans democrats have a far better record when it comes to balanced budgets
charger — Jun 08, 2010Man, that Obama, what a disaster. Can you believe it? Single-handedly ran up the deficit to $13 trillion--just paying for people on welfare to buy more crack! What an asshole. And by the way, that healthcare shit? Who needs it. I don't need more healthcare. And why the hell should sick people get it? They're sick. It's Darwin, baby. If you aren't healthy, you aren't meant to survive. Also, I have it on pretty good authority that 90% of those people who don't have healthcare yet are illegal aliens with ten children, who already get welfare and food stamps. I guess it's not all that surprising that a president who wasn't even born in this country would want to give all kinds of benefits to illegal aliens, mostly criminals and gang members. Because we all know that when Obama was raised in Indonesia, he learned to hate America, and now he's plotting to destroy America from within. Also, he hates Repulicans, white people, and Jesus Christ.
And then, of course, everyone forgets how in 2005, he invented the credit default swap, when he was contracting as a lawyer for AIG.
And how can people be so blind to his most infamous move, when he planted explosives on the Deepwater Horizon rig, then intentionally created a chaotic mess of a response? My god, has anyone ever seen BP's CEO and Obama in the same room at the same time? Of course not. See?
what does your post have to do with anything?
fingers — Jun 08, 2010[quote author=chase link=1275925799/0#10 date=1276012141]that would cost 60,000,000,000,000.
sixty trillion.
I would be happier simply passing an austerity measure mandating we spend only what we bring in in revenues. as crazy as that sounds to democrats it is an answer that would halt increasing our debt and put us back on the path to financial sustainability. charger, you equating only spending what we have to "bunkering down with a gun" is a very telling statement.
that should really read
as crazy as that sounds to republicans democrats have a far better record when it comes to balanced budgets
however it should be read, i don't care. i care about a bleak future if we don't get this under control
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Hook you should retake the test and be honest this time. Last time you tested in the Dali Lama area....
You should be in the Bush/Thacker area in the upper right hand corner according to most of your posts.
You disagree with everyone here who is actually in Dali Lama area.
chase — Jun 08, 2010[quote author=charger link=1275925799/0#11 date=1276016048]Man, that Obama, what a disaster. Can you believe it? Single-handedly ran up the deficit to $13 trillion--just paying for people on welfare to buy more crack! What an asshole. And by the way, that healthcare shit? Who needs it. I don't need more healthcare. And why the hell should sick people get it? They're sick. It's Darwin, baby. If you aren't healthy, you aren't meant to survive. Also, I have it on pretty good authority that 90% of those people who don't have healthcare yet are illegal aliens with ten children, who already get welfare and food stamps. I guess it's not all that surprising that a president who wasn't even born in this country would want to give all kinds of benefits to illegal aliens, mostly criminals and gang members. Because we all know that when Obama was raised in Indonesia, he learned to hate America, and now he's plotting to destroy America from within. Also, he hates Repulicans, white people, and Jesus Christ.
And then, of course, everyone forgets how in 2005, he invented the credit default swap, when he was contracting as a lawyer for AIG.
And how can people be so blind to his most infamous move, when he planted explosives on the Deepwater Horizon rig, then intentionally created a chaotic mess of a response? My god, has anyone ever seen BP's CEO and Obama in the same room at the same time? Of course not. See?
what does your post have to do with anything?
The attitude of you , stratman and Hook.
chase — Jun 08, 2010[quote author=charger link=1275925799/0#11 date=1276016048]Man, that Obama, what a disaster. Can you believe it? Single-handedly ran up the deficit to $13 trillion--just paying for people on welfare to buy more crack! What an asshole. And by the way, that healthcare shit? Who needs it. I don't need more healthcare. And why the hell should sick people get it? They're sick. It's Darwin, baby. If you aren't healthy, you aren't meant to survive. Also, I have it on pretty good authority that 90% of those people who don't have healthcare yet are illegal aliens with ten children, who already get welfare and food stamps. I guess it's not all that surprising that a president who wasn't even born in this country would want to give all kinds of benefits to illegal aliens, mostly criminals and gang members. Because we all know that when Obama was raised in Indonesia, he learned to hate America, and now he's plotting to destroy America from within. Also, he hates Repulicans, white people, and Jesus Christ.
And then, of course, everyone forgets how in 2005, he invented the credit default swap, when he was contracting as a lawyer for AIG.
And how can people be so blind to his most infamous move, when he planted explosives on the Deepwater Horizon rig, then intentionally created a chaotic mess of a response? My god, has anyone ever seen BP's CEO and Obama in the same room at the same time? Of course not. See?
what does your post have to do with anything?
Just telling you what I believe, man. Someone should organize some sort of protest. This guy is destroying America and must be stopped. We need another Republican in there. Preferably a whole bunch of them. When they run the country everything works way better.
ugh, that test... so lonely in my quadrant. just me and uncle milton :(
ooh, there's more.. Chopin and Tchaikovsky too! heh.
We can't say Obama hates Jesus. His preacher may take up for him. ;D ;D However, we could use his preacher to prove your point about him hating white folk. :D
pickmaster60 — Jun 08, 2010http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Hook you should retake the test and be honest this time. Last time you tested in the Dali Lama area....
You should be in the Bush/Thacker area in the upper right hand corner according to most of your posts.
You disagree with everyone here who is actually in Dali Lama area.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-1.38&soc=-3.38
Well, that explains some things I guess. You're probably pretty much a commie in Alabama.
Mine:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.75&soc=-6.41
So charger why do you think you and hook disagree on so much?
charger — Jun 08, 2010Well, that explains some things I guess. You're probably pretty much a commie in Alabama.
Mine:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.75&soc=-6.41
If my family knew how I thought right now they would surely freak out. Especially on the religious thing.
My wife told me months ago she didn't know who I was anymore. ;D ;D ;D ;D She knows how I think of course. She kinda laughs and kids me, especially concerning religious stuff. ;D She actually got a little mad at me when I voted for Obama. ;D
charger — Jun 08, 2010Well, that explains some things I guess. You're probably pretty much a commie in Alabama.
Mine:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.75&soc=-6.41
funny, we are on the opposite side of the lines. i might prove to be alot more moderate than you think
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=3.12&soc=-1.23
ironsheep — Jun 08, 2010ugh, that test... so lonely in my quadrant. just me and uncle milton :(
ooh, there's more.. Chopin and Tchaikovsky too! heh.
i'm with you sheep.
well...
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=7.38&soc=-6.15
it's still lonely out on my limb. ;)
Here's mine. About where all these tests come out - though there's always a couple of questions where both agreement and disagreement don't feel right. They remind me of questions like "So do you still like to fondle little boys?" where neither a yes nor a no answer works.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=0.50&soc=-2.72
Your suppose to answer truthfully Craig. Go ahead and check yes to your example question. ;D ;D ;D
CraigBert — Jun 09, 2010Here's mine. About where all these tests come out - though there's always a couple of questions where both agreement and disagreement don't feel right. They remind me of questions like "So do you still like to fondle little boys?" where neither a yes nor a no answer works.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=0.50&soc=-2.72
I read up on their FAQ and they had an interesting answer to that. They say that some of the questions are intentionally loaded--essentially they are meant to trigger catch phrases or emotional reactions, to get a truer sense of your political leanings. It's interesting to me how conservative our political leaders are (McCain, Obama, Biden, Palin, and Clinton are all in the upper right quadrant), and our country in general. This quote illustrates a good example.
When examining the chart it's important to note that although most of the candidates seem quite different, in substance they occupy a relatively restricted area within the universal political spectrum. Democracies with a system of proportional representation give expression to a wider range of political views. While Dennis Kucinich and Ralph Nader are depicted on the extreme left in an American context, they would simply be mainstream social democrats within the wider political landscape of Europe. Similarly, Hillary Clinton is popularly perceived as a leftist in the United States while in any other western democracy her record is that of a mainstream conservative.
thankfully we have a republic
I would love to have a system of proportional representation. It would be a much truer representation of the actual politics of the country. And the idea of tossing out the government and rebuilding it when it ceases to be effective? Brilliant. Our democracy worked well for a while but now it pretty much sucks. I don't think anyone would argue that it represents the people, so much as special interests. And how many third party candidates are there out there who hold elective office? We could have ten tea partiers and ten green partiers in the Senate... would make it so much more interesting.
our government isn't the problem, rather the people who are running it.
chase — Jun 09, 2010our government isn't the problem, rather the people who are running it.
I don't see how that disagrees with, or refutes, my argument.
I mean, fer chrissakes, you are the one person here who I think would be most excited about a change like that, since you are actually a libertarian and your views are therefore completely unrepresented. And also, you constantly talk about government like it's a bad thing. So... why not toss them out when they fail to work, and rebuild based on what the population actually wants? I can't see a bad side in it. It can't be as lame as the current system, where 50.1% of votes gets all the marbles.
I remember doing this test years ago and I think I was a few steps left of this but about the same on the vertical
Only takes a change in the impulse to click strong or not either way.
It was missing a "I could not give a shit" response which closer fits my view on some of the questions.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=0.25&soc=-4.31
chase — Jun 09, 2010[quote author=ironsheep link=1275925799/0#18 date=1276024020]ugh, that test... so lonely in my quadrant. just me and uncle milton :(
ooh, there's more.. Chopin and Tchaikovsky too! heh.
i'm with you sheep.
No you're not
You're closer to Craig
Sheep has more a mad max outlook on life. :)
Actually charger and sheep have most symmetry
They are equally extreme libertarians.
They just totally disagree on economics
me, chase, hook and craig are meandering around the middle
shame on us :)
what's missing is some right wing authoritarians in the top two quadrants.
I doubt there are any left upper Stalin's around here - but from past discussions there are definitely far more top rights around than these results.
I would have put Chase, Hook in that quadrant.
Craig is weirdly less libertarian than I expected, but definitely expected him to be below the line, but more right.
Sheep and Charger - I just want to see the economic debate.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-1.75&soc=-0.97
I almost hit the center. ;D
More center than the last time I took it. I was almost exactly where hook was last time.
fingers — Jun 09, 2010.
I doubt there are any left upper Stalin's around here - but from past discussions there are definitely far more top rights around than these results..
kev could be quad 2. it'd be close.
You have to understand that in the context of the argument between Charger and I, I don't necessarily disagree with him on his every point. I disagree with him laying every blame possible on Bush like a typical liberal. The other big difference is that just because I voted for Obama doesn't exclude him from a little dislike in his decision making. I'm just not devoted to either party as he seems to be. Even that gay girl on MSMBC knows that Obama is fucking up the oil disaster. Charger lives in denial, I choose not to.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-mann/maddow-doing-crucial-repo_b_606013.html
She admires bathtub boy. ;D
chase — Jun 09, 2010our government isn't the problem, rather the people who are running it.
I think our government is mostly the problem.
Are you proposing that we attempt to change people in our government. Maybe tell them how to think and act?
The government does mostly what our laws allow it to do....what the people allow it to do.
I think our biggest problem is that government has become so big we have no way of keeping up with all the shit they do. Therefore no control of what they do. They control us rather than us controlling them.
pickmaster60 — Jun 10, 2010Hahaha.
Hahahahahahahaha.
Hookbender — Jun 10, 2010You have to understand that in the context of the argument between Charger and I, I don't necessarily disagree with him on his every point. I disagree with him laying every blame possible on Bush like a typical liberal. The other big difference is that just because I voted for Obama doesn't exclude him from a little dislike in his decision making. I'm just not devoted to either party as he seems to be. Even that gay girl on MSMBC knows that Obama is fucking up the oil disaster. Charger lives in denial, I choose not to.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-mann/maddow-doing-crucial-repo_b_606013.html
I like what Obama has accomplished. Dude, Clinton was an excellent president and he couldn't swing healthcare. Most presidents never accomplish anything... our system is configured to prevent change. That Obama accomplished healthcare is amazing to me. The financial reform stuff and the stimulus was easy... much like Bush, who got 9/11 and was thus easily able to wave away our civil liberties, financial reform and stimulus is easy when the whole system collapses under the weight of bad mortgages and worse investments based on them.
But no matter what you say, healthcare was a coup of a rare sort.
Am I happy with Obama's response to the gulf oil spill? No, of course not. He's super cool, he's never flustered, he's calm and rational, and when Clinton would feel pain, and Bush would turn red and talk about his daddy, Obama just looks like it's another day at the office. At the same time, everything BP tried failed, so I think we're still banking on relief wells, which is, and has always been, an August timeframe if we are lucky.
What Obama needs to do out there is spend some BP's money like it's a platinum card, and put people to work laying booms, cleaning up oil, and washing off wildlife. It's too late to stop the rig from exploding or sinking. It's too late to put the genie back in the bottle.
And the other thing that would be nice would be if he stopped being so friggin centrist, and stopped talking to Republicans and incorporating their ideas. Bottom line, they never vote for what he concedes to them anyway, and they talk shit about him all fucking day, and he probably can't get re-elected any more easily by working with them.
I'm not altogether happy with Obama, but on most of his moves, I've been pretty happy. You and I disagree very broadly--not on whether to kiss Obama's ass, but on whether to spend money to get out of recession. I think you are vastly oversimplifying it by insinuating that I should be unhappy with Obama for the reasons you are. We disagree on how and why to spend money; there is no real reason, therefore, that we would agree on Obama or the job he is doing.
Hookbender — Jun 10, 2010You have to understand that in the context of the argument between Charger and I, I don't necessarily disagree with him on his every point. I disagree with him laying every blame possible on Bush like a typical liberal. The other big difference is that just because I voted for Obama doesn't exclude him from a little dislike in his decision making. I'm just not devoted to either party as he seems to be. Even that gay girl on MSMBC knows that Obama is fucking up the oil disaster. Charger lives in denial, I choose not to.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-mann/maddow-doing-crucial-repo_b_606013.html
She admires bathtub boy. ;D
BTW, did you read that article? She seems to be directing her wrath at BP.
And look at this exciting work of fiction they call their spill response plan:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37599810/ns/disaster_in_the_gulf/
Hookbender — Jun 10, 2010 Charger lives in denial, I choose not to.
No, no... Charger is just bitter that he got most of those eight poll questions incorrect from Chase's other post. ;) ;D
fingers — Jun 09, 2010[quote author=chase link=1275925799/25#25 date=1276047482][quote author=ironsheep link=1275925799/0#18 date=1276024020]ugh, that test... so lonely in my quadrant. just me and uncle milton :(
ooh, there's more.. Chopin and Tchaikovsky too! heh.
i'm with you sheep.
No you're not
You're closer to Craig
Sheep has more a mad max outlook on life. :)
same quadrant more moderate. i'd be more likely to go to the edge than towards the center if i had to pick an extremist or a centrist though
charger — Jun 09, 2010[quote author=chase link=1275925799/25#32 date=1276111766]our government isn't the problem, rather the people who are running it.
I don't see how that disagrees with, or refutes, my argument.
I mean, fer chrissakes, you are the one person here who I think would be most excited about a change like that, since you are actually a libertarian and your views are therefore completely unrepresented. And also, you constantly talk about government like it's a bad thing. So... why not toss them out when they fail to work, and rebuild based on what the population actually wants? I can't see a bad side in it. It can't be as lame as the current system, where 50.1% of votes gets all the marbles.
interferes with the oath i took. strangely enough i actually do believe in it. i would be in favor of pressing the RESET button on our current system though; start out at ground zero and build from there (tax code, entitlements, education, agriculture, the whole 9 yards). corruption and greed has ruined a good outline