The Watering Hole

Check this thing out...move over Axe-FX, there's a new kid in town.  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGEHTr8vqQ8&feature=player_embedded

Think about the potential.

You can store hundreds of profiles.
It comes loaded with tons of profiles and a profile "bank" will be available for downloading/sharing.
It has excellent tweaking parameters, you can tweak a profile however you want and save the patch.
It has built in compressors, all the usual amp EQ/Gain/Master knobs
You can share patches.
It has high quality built in FX.
It costs $1600, $600 less than the Axe-FX.

I know a couple of big time studio engineers down here that cant wait to get this amp...they want to profile all the amps they use in their studios, and they want to profile all the amps their friends have in their studios.

Looks interesting for a real pro recordist, I did not watch the whole video but what I did see was very interesting.

There's a lot of buzz about this thing.  Supposed to be a killer piece of gear.  

I can't look otherwise I will be wanting one of those next  >:(

You know you're going to look!   ;) ;D

OK I lied, just watched the video....fuck, here we go again !

Damn Lance.  Have some Beano??  I have G.A.S.  LOL

How about this, the Bad Cat profile in a Nashville demo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx8Q0T3AFXw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QBwUerxeM

Sounds almost as good as the Line6 Insane model.  And only $1300 more!

Sorry, call me a skeptic, I am.

charger — Aug 05, 2011http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QBwUerxeM

Sounds almost as good as the Line6 Insane model.  And only $1300 more!

Sorry, call me a skeptic, I am.

That youtube example sounds fucking awful, don't like that at all !

I don't know how accurate it is, but the Bad Cat sounds great! (Insert tiny laptop speakers disclosure here)

Sounds pretty cool on the clean and semi dirty stuff like most of these things do, but as soon as the gain needs go way up, it's much less convincing, again, like most of these things have been. I guess the ultimate goal with it is to have a ton of different amp types coming out of one box that you'd still need to crank out through a cab? eh, just gimmie 2 or 3 actual amps then. But, lemme know when it can be done 'direct' - that's where these things will change everything!

Jon — Aug 05, 2011[quote author=charger link=1312399097/0#8 date=1312560475]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QBwUerxeM

Sounds almost as good as the Line6 Insane model.  And only $1300 more!

Sorry, call me a skeptic, I am.

That youtube example sounds fucking awful, don't like that at all !

Which means you don't like a Mesa Roadking, because that's what a real one sounds like?

It's not a modeller, it doesn't try sound like the real mic'd amp it's profiling, it sounds exactly like it.

If you like your Peavey Classic 30 then profile it...that's the cool thing. :)

I think the problem with trying to reproduce the speaker cab and mic bit of the chain digitally is that there cannot be any true way to capture that process 100% as the interaction of the speaker, the air and the microphone is not uniform, chaos and randomness of air movement is different everytime you play a note and that must be impossible to capture that as its always different which gives it that certain something that is almost impossible to describe too.

charger — Aug 05, 2011http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QBwUerxeM

Sounds almost as good as the Line6 Insane model.  And only $1300 more!

Sorry, call me a skeptic, I am.

I think this clip is what happens when someone who is not that kind of player decides to dial it in for that and do it.  They have no clue how to dial it in.  On an initial listening, he needs redo the amp's eq.  

I still need to listen to it with headphones, but that is my take.  YMMV.   ;)

Lance — Aug 05, 2011[quote author=Jon G link=1312399097/0#9 date=1312561084][quote author=charger link=1312399097/0#8 date=1312560475]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QBwUerxeM

Sounds almost as good as the Line6 Insane model.  And only $1300 more!

Sorry, call me a skeptic, I am.

That youtube example sounds fucking awful, don't like that at all !

Which means you don't like a Mesa Roadking, because that's what a real one sounds like?

It's not a modeller, it doesn't try sound like the real mic'd amp it's profiling, it sounds exactly like it.

If you like your Peavey Classic 30 then profile it...that's the cool thing. :)


It would be intriguing if some people would post a profile of a real Trainwreck.  That would be the tits.  Or better yet, a Peavey Rage.   ;)

Lance — Aug 05, 2011[quote author=Jon G link=1312399097/0#9 date=1312561084][quote author=charger link=1312399097/0#8 date=1312560475]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QBwUerxeM

Sounds almost as good as the Line6 Insane model.  And only $1300 more!

Sorry, call me a skeptic, I am.

That youtube example sounds fucking awful, don't like that at all !

Which means you don't like a Mesa Roadking, because that's what a real one sounds like?

It's not a modeller, it doesn't try sound like the real mic'd amp it's profiling, it sounds exactly like it.

If you like your Peavey Classic 30 then profile it...that's the cool thing. :)



Yah you're probably right, I am not a huge fan of that "recto" sound.  I'm sure this thing really is just as good as the real thing, and the market for the real amps will entirely disappear shortly after it's released.

Wow, I liked most all of the examples on that video!  :)  Oh well, different strokes, eh Jon?  ;)

lol

Go read the comments from the Axe-FX "clan" on the Kemper threads at TGP...it's hysterical.  ;D

The Axe clan is in shock, how can it be possible that another company can create a modeller/profiler that sounds better than the great holy grail Axe-FX, is it possible that another engineer can programme an algorithm better than Cliff from Fractal Audio.

Fucking assholes!

charger — Aug 09, 2011[quote author=Lance link=1312399097/0#12 date=1312569858][quote author=Jon G link=1312399097/0#9 date=1312561084][quote author=charger link=1312399097/0#8 date=1312560475]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QBwUerxeM

Sounds almost as good as the Line6 Insane model.  And only $1300 more!

Sorry, call me a skeptic, I am.

That youtube example sounds fucking awful, don't like that at all !

Which means you don't like a Mesa Roadking, because that's what a real one sounds like?

It's not a modeller, it doesn't try sound like the real mic'd amp it's profiling, it sounds exactly like it.

If you like your Peavey Classic 30 then profile it...that's the cool thing. :)



I'm sure this thing really is just as good as the real thing, and the market for the real amps will entirely disappear shortly after it's released.

Well, you know that's not the point of it, and you know that real amps will never disappear....just because Tokai makes better Les Pauls than Gibson doesn't mean Gibson will close down.  ;D

But, if you owned a pro recording studio and you were about to drop 2K on a Bad Cat, and 2.5K on a Bogner XTC, and you happened to demo a Kemper and it sounded incredible, you might re-think dropping a few K on the real amps.

I'm sure you know what happens in pro studios, you've been in that business...you have a certain amount of hours per day to get stuff recorded completed and delivered to the client, getting paid is the most important part of the job...if the Kemper gets the recordings finished quicker and sounds great at the same time, then it's a piece of gear your studio needs.

The Kemper sound very interesting.  As I posted in TGP, I wonder if it will be able to profile modellers?  That would make the game really interesting!   :D ;D  Profile your favourite patches on your modeller and then turn around and sell the modeller.  Want to try an Axe FX II but don't have the money to buy one, down load some profiles that another person has done.  Might be some legal considerations but I'd love to see the Fractal or Line 6 try to sue you for stealing their model of an amp they copied from Fender!   :o  

One thing I still haven't figured out is how all these demo video's we are seeing are being recorded especially when they compare the amp to the profile.  If I understand it correctly, the guitar is plugged into the Kemper, then it goes out of the Kemper to the amp then is picked up by the mic and sent back to the Kemper to be profiled.  Both the amp and the profile are then sent out to a mixer and played back over studio monitors.  But what I can't understand is when they are going back and forth between the amp and the profile to compare the two, is the sound only coming out the studio monitor's?  When we hear the amp, shouldn't we be hearing both the amp through it's cabinet as well as the sound through the monitors?  If that's the case, then I would think it should not sound the same or even be close as the profile.  Maybe I just don't get it and will have to try one out first.

Cheers,

jayson

Lance — Aug 10, 2011[quote author=charger link=1312399097/0#16 date=1312929498][quote author=Lance link=1312399097/0#12 date=1312569858][quote author=Jon G link=1312399097/0#9 date=1312561084][quote author=charger link=1312399097/0#8 date=1312560475]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QBwUerxeM

Sounds almost as good as the Line6 Insane model.  And only $1300 more!

Sorry, call me a skeptic, I am.

That youtube example sounds fucking awful, don't like that at all !

Which means you don't like a Mesa Roadking, because that's what a real one sounds like?

It's not a modeller, it doesn't try sound like the real mic'd amp it's profiling, it sounds exactly like it.

If you like your Peavey Classic 30 then profile it...that's the cool thing. :)



I'm sure this thing really is just as good as the real thing, and the market for the real amps will entirely disappear shortly after it's released.

Well, you know that's not the point of it, and you know that real amps will never disappear....just because Tokai makes better Les Pauls than Gibson doesn't mean Gibson will close down.  ;D

But, if you owned a pro recording studio and you were about to drop 2K on a Bad Cat, and 2.5K on a Bogner XTC, and you happened to demo a Kemper and it sounded incredible, you might re-think dropping a few K on the real amps.

I'm sure you know what happens in pro studios, you've been in that business...you have a certain amount of hours per day to get stuff recorded completed and delivered to the client, getting paid is the most important part of the job...if the Kemper gets the recordings finished quicker and sounds great at the same time, then it's a piece of gear your studio needs.


I think the opposite.  This will be mostly a home recordist/home player tool.  If you have a studio, and channels, and mics, and amps, and cabs, why would you use this?  I wouldn't.  I mean, we take a DI and sometimes reamp through the Pod Farm, but we have 4 stellar sounding amps and we can stick a mic wherever the hell we want and get the tones we want.  And our studio is poor and ill-equipped compared to some of the stuff out there.  Look, Kemper is a nice idea--it's a really fancy Pod.  People who like Pods and have $1500 will love it.  But it's not an "amp".  There's no power amp component.  There's no way to jam with your drummer unless you buy a power amp and cab--and what power amp?  Which power amp and combo is going to give me the sound of a Marshall Plexi with a 4x12 and then a 66' Deluxe Reverb?  Is the guitarist going to say "sure, run my Deluxe through that isolation cabinet, with that mic you would never use to record it, and then I will play through that sound, while we record our live music, and the drummer and bass player can just listen to me through headphones?"  And how to record the impulse? I use a Heil PR40 btw, and I also use a ribbon mic, and I need one mic back 12 inches and one back 12 feet, can the Kemper even begin to model that?

Hell no, the guitarist will say, I brought my '66 deluxe to the session and I'm playing through it!  And I will say, well, I can't record the mics I want, so this is basically a really nice Pod to me.  Having the space to record guitars through amps, I wouldn't ever go back.  When I recorded everything in my bedroom, sure... although then I could never justify $1500 for an amp, hell that's used Bogner Shiva territory.  So short answer, this is the next step for the Fractal guys out there, or those who have cash to burn and use Amplitube or a Pod or something.  Long answer--this isn't going to be replacing many amps, and it might show up in some studios, but it's not going to replace the venerable chain.

Spot on Charger.  The best way to record is definitely with an amp and a microphone, mostly because as you said "stick a mic wherever the hell we want" which gives you a unique sound every-time and you have full control over it.  Modellers or profilers whatever you like to call them are great for home use when you can't turn the amp up, but they are not really very good for much else to be honest.  Any time I play with a band it is always with a real amp.  I did a gig once with a pod xt live and it was the worst mistake I ever made,  the sound just didn't sit with the other live "real" instruments at all whereas a real amp has that great "open" sound about it and fits right in.

lol

The guys in the videos are the worlds best full time session guitarists and engineers/producers, and you guys are sitting at home playing guitars in your bedrooms...but they're wrong and you're right...how does that work?  ;D

Here's the Matchless profile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucd-DsZmy1w&feature=youtu.be

Lance — Aug 12, 2011lol

The guys in the videos are the worlds best full time session guitarists and engineers/producers, and you guys are sitting at home playing guitars in your bedrooms...but they're wrong and you're right...how does that work?  ;D

Here's the Matchless profile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucd-DsZmy1w&feature=youtu.be

Who says we are right and they are wrong?   Just my opinion that's all, no need to get uptight about it !, oh yes and by the way I don't just sit at home playing in the bedroom, I also play "live" too!

Lance — Aug 12, 2011The guys in the videos are the worlds best full time session guitarists and engineers/producers, and you guys are sitting at home playing guitars in your bedrooms...but they're wrong and you're right...how does that work?  ;D

Pssst, everything said and claimed of this current flavor of the moment modler/thingy has been said with just as much enthusiasm for many of the previous ones, and by top dog musicians as well, yet what happened?  Yep, we we're dead wrong in the past and we'll be wrong this time I'm sure, in fact, better sell our amps pronto, before word spreads and they're worth squat.

Lance — Aug 12, 2011lol

The guys in the videos are the worlds best full time session guitarists and engineers/producers, and you guys are sitting at home playing guitars in your bedrooms...but they're wrong and you're right...how does that work?  ;D

Here's the Matchless profile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucd-DsZmy1w&feature=youtu.be

Which part do you think I'm wrong about? That home recordists who can burn the money will buy this? That studios that can use real amps are not going to switch?  You think studios that can record amps are going to ditch them?  I haven't seen many ditch amps for the Fractal solution and I don't see this as being much different.

Look on Youtube.  There are about a million videos comparing, say, a 5150 to Fractal to Revalver.  To me, they sound very nearly identical... and yet, guys still buy, use, and record amps.

Lance, I remember when your penultimate tone was a Pod, then a Tonelab, then a Vibrolux, then a Rivera Fandango.  Now it's this.  All equally valid but there is no such thing as a penultimate tone in my book--even pros and studio guys etc, will constantly switch rigs.

Tools are tools, not religion.  Fractal and Kemper are technological marvels but still tools, and people are free to covet them as they please or not, right?

Although I am very skeptical about this I might actually get one of these just to satisfy my own curiosity.  Pretty much what I did with the AXE-FX. I kept that about 6 weeks and then sold it for the same price I bought if for. All sold out until end of September from my usual supplier.

actually, just kidding  ;D

After watching some more videos on this it does seem as though it is simply a convolution engine that captures the mic and cabinet.  The distortion is all created from within the unit itself so you can have the same thing going on by using any modeller with the cabs switched off and then using an impulse of a cabinet run through a convolution vst.

Here's an interview with Christoph Kemper with some more details.  

http://www.guitar-muse.com/kemper-profiling-amp-2949-2949

I think I'm understanding the difference between profile and modelling now and how it works.

Cheers,

jayson

Good link Jayson!

I thought it was interesting that it can even profile a modeller with an amp.  With the open-ended design, I think I'll end up with one some day.  I love technology like this!   :)

I saw on one of the videos (can't find the link now but will post if I can find it again) that the distortion of the amp does not behave in the same way that the distortion on the real amp does as distortion is created by profiler unit to sound 'like' the amp distortion, but of course it doesn't bloom etc like the real amp would depending on the amount of drive you add because it is uniform across it's entire range.  That wouldn't work for me as I like the different blooms that you get by pushing an amp too hard.

Well Jon, if you need more distortion, just go and find that ancient, hyper-expensive amp, and re-profile it at a higher gain!

So simple!

charger — Aug 18, 2011Well Jon, if you need more distortion, just go and find that ancient, hyper-expensive amp, and re-profile it at a higher gain!

So simple!

or better still just buy a good amp and use that :-)

Jon — Aug 19, 2011[quote author=charger link=1312399097/25#37 date=1313699860]Well Jon, if you need more distortion, just go and find that ancient, hyper-expensive amp, and re-profile it at a higher gain!

So simple!

or better still just buy a good amp and use that :-)

Stop reading my mind!

Jon — Aug 17, 2011I saw on one of the videos (can't find the link now but will post if I can find it again) that the distortion of the amp does not behave in the same way that the distortion on the real amp does as distortion is created by profiler unit to sound 'like' the amp distortion, but of course it doesn't bloom etc like the real amp would depending on the amount of drive you add because it is uniform across it's entire range.  That wouldn't work for me as I like the different blooms that you get by pushing an amp too hard.

You can profile the amp with the gain on zero, then make a profile of the amp with the gain on 1, then 2, then 3, then 4, etc.

How many sweet spots are there on any amp you've owned, only a few, correct?
So, profile all the sweet spots and you have all the best the amp has to offer.

Did you watch the Matchless profile video, did you see the guitarist using the volume knob on the guitar, sounded pretty damn good to my ears.

Jon — Aug 19, 2011[quote author=charger link=1312399097/25#37 date=1313699860]Well Jon, if you need more distortion, just go and find that ancient, hyper-expensive amp, and re-profile it at a higher gain!

So simple!

or better still just buy a good amp and use that :-)

But, Jon.
You don't own a professional studio where you spend everyday doing recordings to earn a living.
One day you're recording some 18 year olds in a metal band, the next day you're doing a jingle for a TV soap commercial, the day after you're recording a blues band, etc.

Do you own all the amps needed in such a studio?

If you're a guitarist who does some home recordings and an occasional gig or two, then yes all you need is one good versatile amp and a few pedals.

Here's a comment I just read from Pete Thorn...makes sense.

"It looks like it could be really cool, but I'd have to try it in my own studio I think. It's a cool concept, for sure! If it delivers, It'd be amazing to rent 10 amps from a place like Hollywood Studio Rentals, and go into a good studio for a day and make a buttload of profiles. Different mics, pres, mix and match heads and cabs, the works. Fun!

For sessions, it'd obviously be an incredible tool.

Hmm I felt a tinge of GAS just now haha"

I don't own a professional studio so I don't need it, gotcha.

thanks for saving me some money!

It's not for me. I've done nearly every modeller so far and none delivers 100% so I'm not wasting any more time or money on yet another promised holy grail.   The Pod HD500 is fine for my home musings and then when I gig I use a real amp so I really don't need it.

By the way, don't get fooled by all the hype about "profiling"...it is still modelling as it is not real and never can be. It's simply a simulation created by one's and zero's.

Oh yes, nearly forgot, it's an ugly fucker too  ;D

Jon — Aug 19, 2011 It's simply a simulation created by one's and zero's.

Maybe, but so is a CD or DVD!  ;)

I'd love to get one someday but, then again, I like a LOT of different tones, I'm a mediocre guitarist anyway and doubt I'll be out buying lots of different, expensive amps like I used to.

What he said about renting the really nice stuff, profiling them and returning them is exactly what I thought while watching the first demo video.

So has anyone done the usual "Here's two samples, which is the real amp and which is the modeler profiler?" yet?  8-)

You are correct Craig, a CD or DVD is indeed just 1's and 0's.....and so is this forum :-)

The point being that it obviously IS possible to create great tone digitally, however the effort to do so with amp simulations/modeling/profiling continues.  :)

What are they gonna call the pedal profiler they're probably working on as well, the Pedalphiler? Would love to see 'em tap dance around calling that by something other than what it actually is (an emulator/modler)!  :P

CraigBert — Aug 19, 2011The point being that it obviously IS possible to create great tone digitally, however the effort to do so with amp simulations/modeling/profiling continues.  :)

Yes of course it's possible to replicate a sound digitally almost perfectly. The problem with replicating an amp is that you are not just capturing a performance you are attempting to capture all the random interactions of the various parts of the signal chain so they behave like the real thing.   It is the very nature of randomness that I don't believe can ever be captured, particularly with the speaker/microphone part of the chain.  Each time a note is played the air between the speaker and the microphone moves in a random way and makes the sounds that we like.   I don't see how "profiling" or "modelling" can ever achieve the same thing as it will always capture the way the air was moving at that particular time, but in the real world the air moves differently every time, even if the same note is played twice the air will move differently both times.

It would be great if this can be cracked, but from the sound samples that I've heard so far it doesn't do it for me.  I would like to hear some well recorded examples of the Kemper.  It amazes me that they can make all of these claims about the thing and then release videos of it which sounds like it's just recorded via the camcorder mics....not doing themselves any favours.