The Watering Hole

Hookbender — Apr 06, 2015Well, 2 things.

First, an officer can't stop and frisk anyone without probable cause. Maybe the New Yorkers need to be trained on how to handle a police stop. A cop can't randomly pull a person over and search his vehicle either. They have to have permission, or a court order to do so signed by a judge. Your giving me this data base with all these innocent people being stopped and no mention of any complaints from citizens. If this is really happening, I'll assume it is, have their been any complaints? Been going on since 2002, should be some complaints somewhere. What about the reports from the officers? What was their reason for stopping these "innocent" people to start with? Skin color only? Some other reasons? need to have this info to make a informed, objective, reasonable opinion of your accusation.

2nd thing is, this is 1 city. Not even a state. So, why would you assume that cops everywhere do things wrong just because 1 city may have done something wrong? And if this isn't wrong, the stop and frisk thing, it's up to the citizens of this city to do something about it. Has anything been done to change the stop and frisk law by citizens?

This has been going on since 2002. At least. What is the police side of the story. Obviously, if they were doing nothing wrong when stopped, and were quickly let go, what's the big deal? They weren't shot. What color were the officers that stopped the black folks? What color were the officers that stopped the white folks?

Need more information. You may be proving reverse racism.  :D

Also, you've provided me with what you saw as evidence for wrong doings by officers that were a list of cases that were currently under investigation. That didn't provide me with any usable information that would help your argument.

Actually, they can, that's the whole point of "stop and frisk."

Do you know what's going on out there?  Do you pay attention to the news?  

Wikipedia: Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him or her without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous."

90% of those stops result in no infraction whatsoever.  So it's not much of a leap to say that the police are using "appearance" as their source of "reasonable suspicion."  In doing so, they stop white people 1/4 of the percentage they should according to demographics, and black people over 2x as frequently as they should according to demographics.  If I were black, it wouldn't be hard to put two and two together... that being black contributes to the "appearance" of "reasonable suspicion" for police officers.  What would you think if people your color were targeted 55% to 10%, and yet the 10% made up half the people in the city?

Hookbender — Apr 06, 2015[quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1425686671/75#98 date=1428349574][quote author=Hookbender link=1425686671/75#95 date=1428269672]First that would have to be true. You give me a case, with all the facts, and I'll form a opinion. But to say that their is a lot of that going on, and it's unjust, I don't buy that.

What would have to be true, that many black people feel that they are treated like criminals by default?  That is what they are saying.  Do you think that the dismissive attitude that it is a group delusion of victimhood contributes to these feelings of being treated differently as well as the support that you saw from Al?  What did you think of the DOJ report of ongoing abuses in Ferguson?  

Don't want to sound like an ass, but, I really don't care how black people feel their treated. I need to see that they actually are treated unfairly, or as they claim they are treated.




Oh, well it would be pretty helpful here if someone had gone and investigated this.  Oh wait, they did.  Here's a tasty little section of the Ferguson report, compiled by investigators from the US Justice Department.  I'm sure this won't make you see things any differently either.

Ferguson’s law enforcement practices overwhelmingly impact African Americans. Data
collected by the Ferguson Police Department from 2012 to 2014 shows that African Americans
account for 85% of vehicle stops, 90% of citations, and 93% of arrests made by FPD officers,
despite comprising only 67% of Ferguson’s population. African Americans are more than twice
as likely as white drivers to be searched during vehicle stops even after controlling for non-race
based variables such as the reason the vehicle stop was initiated, but are found in possession of
contraband 26% less often than white drivers, suggesting officers are impermissibly considering
race as a factor when determining whether to search. African Americans are more likely to be
cited and arrested following a stop regardless of why the stop was initiated and are more likely to
receive multiple citations during a single incident. From 2012 to 2014, FPD issued four or more
citations to African Americans on 73 occasions, but issued four or more citations to non-African
Americans only twice. FPD appears to bring certain offenses almost exclusively against African
Americans. For example, from 2011 to 2013, African Americans accounted for 95% of Manner
of Walking in Roadway charges, and 94% of all Failure to Comply charges. Notably, with
respect to speeding charges brought by FPD, the evidence shows not only that African
Americans are represented at disproportionately high rates overall, but also that the disparate
impact of FPD’s enforcement practices on African Americans is 48% larger when citations are
issued not on the basis of radar or laser, but by some other method, such as the officer’s own
visual assessment.

I'm sorry but that strikes me as insane.

The Ferguson Report is what you should read tonight.

Our investigation indicates that this disproportionate burden on African Americans
cannot be explained by any difference in the rate at which people of different races violate the
law. Rather, our investigation has revealed that these disparities occur, at least in part, because
of unlawful bias against and stereotypes about African Americans.

charger — Apr 06, 2015[quote author=Hookbender link=1425686671/75#97 date=1428342108]Well, 2 things.

First, an officer can't stop and frisk anyone without probable cause. Maybe the New Yorkers need to be trained on how to handle a police stop. A cop can't randomly pull a person over and search his vehicle either. They have to have permission, or a court order to do so signed by a judge. Your giving me this data base with all these innocent people being stopped and no mention of any complaints from citizens. If this is really happening, I'll assume it is, have their been any complaints? Been going on since 2002, should be some complaints somewhere. What about the reports from the officers? What was their reason for stopping these "innocent" people to start with? Skin color only? Some other reasons? need to have this info to make a informed, objective, reasonable opinion of your accusation.

2nd thing is, this is 1 city. Not even a state. So, why would you assume that cops everywhere do things wrong just because 1 city may have done something wrong? And if this isn't wrong, the stop and frisk thing, it's up to the citizens of this city to do something about it. Has anything been done to change the stop and frisk law by citizens?

This has been going on since 2002. At least. What is the police side of the story. Obviously, if they were doing nothing wrong when stopped, and were quickly let go, what's the big deal? They weren't shot. What color were the officers that stopped the black folks? What color were the officers that stopped the white folks?

Need more information. You may be proving reverse racism.  :D

Also, you've provided me with what you saw as evidence for wrong doings by officers that were a list of cases that were currently under investigation. That didn't provide me with any usable information that would help your argument.

Actually, they can, that's the whole point of "stop and frisk."

Do you know what's going on out there?  Do you pay attention to the news?  

Wikipedia: Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him or her without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous."

90% of those stops result in no infraction whatsoever.  So it's not much of a leap to say that the police are using "appearance" as their source of "reasonable suspicion."  In doing so, they stop white people 1/4 of the percentage they should according to demographics, and black people over 2x as frequently as they should according to demographics.  If I were black, it wouldn't be hard to put two and two together... that being black contributes to the "appearance" of "reasonable suspicion" for police officers.  What would you think if people your color were targeted 55% to 10%, and yet the 10% made up half the people in the city?

Like I said, if that's the case, New Yorkers need to do something about that. Still, the officers are operating according to law. Therefore, they aren't doing anything wrong. And, why are these black folks being targeted? Is it a high crime area that the stops are taking place in? What are the officers side of the story? Sure you don't give rats ass, but I do. I'd like to have the entire story, not just the parts you like.

If 55% of white people were being stopped I would ask the same questions. I think the color of the people stopped, according to what you have given thus far as evidence, is irrelevant.

charger — Apr 06, 2015[quote author=Hookbender link=1425686671/75#99 date=1428352239][quote author=BINGEWOOD link=1425686671/75#98 date=1428349574][quote author=Hookbender link=1425686671/75#95 date=1428269672]First that would have to be true. You give me a case, with all the facts, and I'll form a opinion. But to say that their is a lot of that going on, and it's unjust, I don't buy that.

What would have to be true, that many black people feel that they are treated like criminals by default?  That is what they are saying.  Do you think that the dismissive attitude that it is a group delusion of victimhood contributes to these feelings of being treated differently as well as the support that you saw from Al?  What did you think of the DOJ report of ongoing abuses in Ferguson?  

Don't want to sound like an ass, but, I really don't care how black people feel their treated. I need to see that they actually are treated unfairly, or as they claim they are treated.




Oh, well it would be pretty helpful here if someone had gone and investigated this.  Oh wait, they did.  Here's a tasty little section of the Ferguson report, compiled by investigators from the US Justice Department.  I'm sure this won't make you see things any differently either.

Ferguson’s law enforcement practices overwhelmingly impact African Americans. Data
collected by the Ferguson Police Department from 2012 to 2014 shows that African Americans
account for 85% of vehicle stops, 90% of citations, and 93% of arrests made by FPD officers,
despite comprising only 67% of Ferguson’s population. African Americans are more than twice
as likely as white drivers to be searched during vehicle stops even after controlling for non-race
based variables such as the reason the vehicle stop was initiated, but are found in possession of
contraband 26% less often than white drivers, suggesting officers are impermissibly considering
race as a factor when determining whether to search. African Americans are more likely to be
cited and arrested following a stop regardless of why the stop was initiated and are more likely to
receive multiple citations during a single incident. From 2012 to 2014, FPD issued four or more
citations to African Americans on 73 occasions, but issued four or more citations to non-African
Americans only twice. FPD appears to bring certain offenses almost exclusively against African
Americans. For example, from 2011 to 2013, African Americans accounted for 95% of Manner
of Walking in Roadway charges, and 94% of all Failure to Comply charges. Notably, with
respect to speeding charges brought by FPD, the evidence shows not only that African
Americans are represented at disproportionately high rates overall, but also that the disparate
impact of FPD’s enforcement practices on African Americans is 48% larger when citations are
issued not on the basis of radar or laser, but by some other method, such as the officer’s own
visual assessment.

I'm sorry but that strikes me as insane.

I'm sorry, this strikes me as a one sided investigation without any input from the officers. Where are the reports from these stops? Did these people actually commit some crime or break the law? Very high failure to comply rate. Seems that the attitude towards officers there could be as bad as the officers attitude. 67% black in a city is a pretty high. This doesn't make me see things differently at all. Their is a bunch of stats with no details. I'm sure if things are being done incorrectly by officers there, it will be corrected after all this crap going on.

charger — Apr 06, 2015The Ferguson Report is what you should read tonight.

Our investigation indicates that this disproportionate burden on African Americans
cannot be explained by any difference in the rate at which people of different races violate the
law. Rather, our investigation has revealed that these disparities occur, at least in part, because
of unlawful bias against and stereotypes about African Americans.

It will be fixed. That's what matters. I don't need to read what happened in Ferguson to question accusations that police ride around killing innocent black folks. I also don't need to read Ferguson to question accusations that all police departments act in the same way Ferguson police act. You've given me evidence of 2 cities that acted in a questionable way. That doesn't mean all police act that way. And, one of the cities you gave, New York, is operating within the limits of the law. So, that's one city, really.

You've given no clear evidence to support your claims. Ferguson is cleaning up their mess as we speak. Did you see all the businesses fucked up in the rioting? See any white people in the videos? I may have seen 2. Seems to me their is much more than police at fault in Ferguson, if you look at the entire picture. I don't see why this is such a big deal to you. Seems you've bought in on the news and lost all sense of reality. It's not like you take a news story and blow it all out of proportion like this.

By the way, the last ticket I got was bullshit. I came to a stop sign and did everything but stop. A black lady, state trooper, saw it from 4 lanes over. I argued with her a little and finally said fuck it. I think she hated white people. She didn't have a good look and I can't believe she could see that I didn't stop. I think she was riding around looking to give tickets to white people. All black police are racist.

Now can you see how fucking stupid your arguments are?  ;D

What are they fixing in Ferguson?  Institutionalized racial bias?  Unfair revenue generation?



What do you think of the S.C. shooting video which appears to have put the officer up on a murder charge?  Do you think there would be a charge without the video?

BINGEWOOD — Apr 08, 2015What are they fixing in Ferguson?  Institutionalized racial bias?  Unfair revenue generation?



What do you think of the S.C. shooting video which appears to have put the officer up on a murder charge?  Do you think there would be a charge without the video?

Don't know what your talking about.

http://www.wsbradio.com/news/news/national/shocking-video-shows-sc-cop-fatally-shooting-black/nkpYH/

Ok. What about it? That 1 cop made a bad decision, for whatever reason, and is charged with murder. That 1 isolated event doesn't prove anything. It doesn't prove racism among all police in all cities. It doesn't prove all cops ride around killing innocent black people. It's 1 event that happened. Seems like it's being handled the right way.  

Just posting the link... I report, you decide.  ;D

Sorry. That was meant mostly for Binge.

I'm sick of deciding.  ;D ;D

Someone has to keep the liberals in check.  ;D

They ran off all the republicans.  ;D

The "liberals" "ran off" the "Republicans"?  


"It doesn't prove all cops ride around killing innocent black people.", you are the only one trying to limit the discussion to this argument.  Why do you do that over and over again?


Do you think there would be a charge on the S.C. officer without the video?

What are they fixing in Ferguson?

The Justice Department report seems unfair to you? What's the officer's side of the story?  You obviously didn't read the report.  Or see the emails that the officials in Ferguson sent around.  And I would argue you are pretty clearly biased AGAINST believing that there is racism. Even when there is a massive weight of evidence, factual evidence, pointing to bias.

Hookbender — Apr 08, 2015Ok. What about it? That 1 cop made a bad decision, for whatever reason, and is charged with murder. That 1 isolated event doesn't prove anything. It doesn't prove racism among all police in all cities. It doesn't prove all cops ride around killing innocent black people. It's 1 event that happened. Seems like it's being handled the right way.  

The video shows the officer shooting the guy eight times.  Then he goes over to the body.  Then he goes back to where he shot from, picks up his stun gun, and goes and drops it next to the body.  Because his argument is the guy stole his stun gun.  Black guy, traffic stop for a broken taillight.  The officer made a bad decision?  That's your fucking explanation?  I think this argument has run its course, you know exactly where you stand, and won't be swayed by facts, justice department investigations, statistics, or even actual videos.

BINGEWOOD — Apr 08, 2015The "liberals" "ran off" the "Republicans"?  


"It doesn't prove all cops ride around killing innocent black people.", you are the only one trying to limit the discussion to this argument.  Why do you do that over and over again?


Do you think there would be a charge on the S.C. officer without the video?

What are they fixing in Ferguson?

I keep coming back to Al lying and giving the impression that white cops ride around looking to shoot innocent black people. Thats the impression it made on Charger, apparently. And thats the topic of the thread. Not how many guilty, illegal pot smokers that are black..... are in jail. Racist white cops.... Al, ya done good my brotha. The cat is officially chasing it's tail.

A charge without the video? How the fuck could I know? I would like to see the video minutes before the shooting. In fact, I'd like the details of the investigation. However, considering he was fired and jailed without bond leads me to believe he's guilty. (and charged with murder) I definitely don't think cops should be required to wear a camera because of this 1 case. And I fully believe their are way the fuck more Good Cops working their ass off for chump change and just a few bad eggs in the bunch. I think it's blown up way more than it should have been. I think that this guy getting shot(ferguson) will at least get some bad eggs out of the carton plus some.... and things will hopefully get better. The interesting thing will be to see in 5 years what the crime rate is and all that stuff.

Well, what i meant by that Ferguson fixiong thing is that the investigation gave detailed step by step things that needed correcting with suggestions. I thought the suggestions, for the most part are ok. But to answer your question, they got rid of some of those bad eggs I mentioned.

Is that what you saw Al say?



I think that many black people are saying that there are many many bad eggs that they end up interacting with.  I'm sure many police officers feel the same way.

You said that you didn't see many white protesters in Ferguson but I saw a bunch.  I still think that the rollout after the Ferguson shooting was worse than Obambamcare's and has much more to do with the feeling of being "the other" than Al.

BINGEWOOD — Apr 08, 2015Is that what you saw Al say?



I think that many black people are saying that there are many many bad eggs that they end up interacting with.  I'm sure many police officers feel the same way.

You said that you didn't see many white protesters in Ferguson but I saw a bunch.  I still think that the rollout after the Ferguson shooting was worse than Obambamcare's and has much more to do with the feeling of being "the other" than Al.

I keep reading your post and it's all about "feeling", and what "you think" about the situation. And, what you think black people are "saying".

That's fine if we are going to have a speculation contest. But it does nothing to prove your accusations.

You and Charger etc get on this forum and bitch people out constantly about watching fox and repeating it on this forum. It is very apparent from reading you and Chargers post that you've watched the news, probably the liberal news, and came and repeated what you heard on this thread. You have no evidence for your claims, and Charger's basically making shit up as he goes.

When I first came here, I got slammed because i just didn't get it. I made arguments like the one your making. Looking back at it now, I feel your pain from the past.  ;D The only difference is, you know better and at the time, I didn't know better. I would say this is more irritating. You know your arguments are speculation at best and don't hold water. Why in the hell do you keep repeating them over and over?

In the context of this argument, I don't care what you think black people are saying. I don't care what you think black people are feeling. I don't care how many black, Mexican, white, or stripped people are in jail for illegal activities of any damn kind. I don't even care if your feeling like you need to go to the bathroom right now.

I case here, 1 case their, that doesn't say shit about the entire U.S. police force in every city in every state. Nothing. Your not going to have a perfect anything. Except lay, from time to time. So, where did this attitude of perfection from our underpaid, overworked police force come from? Why don't I see some consideration for the police here? They deserve it, as much as the bad cops deserve a boot in their ass. One or 2 cases of wrong actions don't paint the entire picture with details, of police force all over the damn U.S. Thats a crazy assumption.

Police are not the fucking enemy. Get over it already.

Peace.  ;)

http://wric.com/2014/02/11/richmond-police-officers-good-deed-goes-viral/

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Good-Deeds-Done-by-Police/238638173000784

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/good-cops/

Oh, it can't be. Good cops? Oh shit, say it ain't so. Why isn't the news focused on good deeds done by officers like these? I think we all know the answer to that question.

And just in case you think cops go to the bar and celebrate after shooting someone, maybe you should read this. Police are not monsters.

http://www.tearsofacop.com/police/articles/aftergun.html

Sure, limit the argument to what ALL police officers do, as if that's possible.  If you don't see the same patterns that many in the black community are talking about and just see it all as completely random rogue actions and don't see two groups that are very scared of each other, then you may want to blame all of the media for highlighting so many cases recently.  Don't worry, I could tell that you don't care about black people's feelings, unless they have been "given to them by Al"

You and Charger etc get on this forum and bitch people out constantly about watching fox and repeating it on this forum. It is very apparent from reading you and Chargers post that you've watched the news, probably the liberal news, and came and repeated what you heard on this thread. You have no evidence for your claims, and Charger's basically making shit up as he goes.  

Sure, I agree with you 100%, if you call "posting statistics and actual facts based on big data analysis" "making shit up as he goes."  I guess all of science is also "making shit up as they go."  And no, I don't watch the news, liberal or otherwise.  It's totally simple to google search for facts on anything.  I do that a lot.  And then, yeah, I make it all up. I just post completely distorted and untrue things, I even fake the graphics, and I falsify research.  Because, well, you know, it's so much easier to make it up as I go then to do a 5-second google search and copy and paste the results and links.  And actually, when I do post links to news sites, or research, well, yeah, I've made those up too.  I've actually hacked all those sites and planted my own false research.  Just to show YOU results that I think will sway you.  Even though I know that you made up your mind twenty years ago and I don't have a chance in hell of affecting you at all.  

So fun making things up.  The funny part is if I walk out my door, it's into a colorblind America.  Black people and white people have the same opportunity, the same justice, and are treated the same by all systems.  The criminal justice system, and police forces, are more than fair to them, in fact, some would say too fair.  Compared to those white people, at least, who really get tough policing.  But I just decided to fake that it's actually a horribly uinbalanced nightmare, just for you, Hookbender.  That's how important you are.

charger — Apr 09, 2015You and Charger etc get on this forum and bitch people out constantly about watching fox and repeating it on this forum. It is very apparent from reading you and Chargers post that you've watched the news, probably the liberal news, and came and repeated what you heard on this thread. You have no evidence for your claims, and Charger's basically making shit up as he goes.  

Sure, I agree with you 100%, if you call "posting statistics and actual facts based on big data analysis" "making shit up as he goes."  I guess all of science is also "making shit up as they go."  And no, I don't watch the news, liberal or otherwise.  It's totally simple to google search for facts on anything.  I do that a lot.  And then, yeah, I make it all up. I just post completely distorted and untrue things, I even fake the graphics, and I falsify research.  Because, well, you know, it's so much easier to make it up as I go then to do a 5-second google search and copy and paste the results and links.  And actually, when I do post links to news sites, or research, well, yeah, I've made those up too.  I've actually hacked all those sites and planted my own false research.  Just to show YOU results that I think will sway you.  Even though I know that you made up your mind twenty years ago and I don't have a chance in hell of affecting you at all.  

So fun making things up.  The funny part is if I walk out my door, it's into a colorblind America.  Black people and white people have the same opportunity, the same justice, and are treated the same by all systems.  The criminal justice system, and police forces, are more than fair to them, in fact, some would say too fair.  Compared to those white people, at least, who really get tough policing.  But I just decided to fake that it's actually a horribly uinbalanced nightmare, just for you, Hookbender.  That's how important you are.

posting a link to a bunch of cases under investigation are not evidence. Posting links to how many people are in jail for illegally possessing pot or whatever isn't evidence. If people are in jail, they have been convicted of doing something illegal regardless of skin color. Just because a white cop arrest a black man for doing something illegal, doesn't mean he's racist. Accusing me of saying, and not saying things, are not evidence to help your argument.

If there are a few police departments that are doing things as you say they are, they need to be corrected. However, that doesn't suggest that every cities police dept have a # of racist cops. And it certainly doesn't mean cops ride around looking to shoot innocent black folks. And nothing you've shown is a good defense for Al lying his ass off on T.V.

I do care about black folks and how they feel. But how they feel and whether or not I care about them is completely useless information. Their claims, to have any merit, need to be backed up with proof of their claims. A few case here and their doesn't suggest a country wide problem. Big Al lied and convicted this officer before he knew anything about the case. that fueled a fire storm. He should be held accountable for his actions and issue a full apology to this officer. I think the officer should sue the shit out of him. Not that he would pay, he owes shitloads to the government already.

Your liberal bias has gotten the best of you on this one.

Also, just for fun, if you look at the murder victims you'll find 0 racism. I think the black on black murders ranked near 94%. White killing white guys were like 84%, if I remember correctly. Very few blacks killing whites, and whites killing blacks. The thing to watch next is the Mexicans. Their violent crime rate is rising big time. Already passed up whites.

My point.... even fucking criminals, murderers, are not racist.  :o

He should apologize for a lot of things.  

Word.

Fred had feelings too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoHBhosppfw


More feelings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGJt0JXX05M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXwGjvGnW3c

Damn. I think I have been on a hate white people forum and didn't know it.

"Stop being defensive..."  heh heh

Fucking idiots in Baltimore. Thats all I can say. What a shame.

Hookbender — Apr 11, 2015Damn. I think I have been on a hate white people forum and didn't know it.

Yeah all youse honkies piss off us Wiggers......... ;D

Your a racist. I'm gonna burn your house down for calling me a honky. In fact, all us white folk will shut your hood down and destroy your city. Why, because we want to steal your shit and get free stuff.  ;D